After watching some videos from SCG with Sheldon is anyone else particularly bothered by their reasoning? To me the rationale is “in our small play group we found this to be true”. I find it extremely disturbing that we have the rules committee basing their decisions off an extremely extremely small sample size.
Here are some of the videos in particular that raised some red flags:
There's a very good reason that the banlist makes absolutely no sense and seems to be applied inconsistently: the RC's metagame is stagnant, inbred, and trapped in 2010.
The RC likes to play EDH in a very, very particular way, and anything that breaks their trudging Jund-y value battlecruiser meta gets banned or frowned out of the group, so they never have to evolve their play or improve their decks. As such the things that are too good in that exact meta get banned, and things that are too good in evolving, real-world metas stay unbanned.
All of that said, there's nothing inherently wrong with the way they choose to enjoy the game. There is, however, something very problematic with the format's stewards having an incredibly narrow view of it. Their rhetoric very clearly and consistently demonstrates that point, especially in their vitriol for anyone who finds enjoyment in pushing the limits of the format.
Obviously the format is still a ton of fun and very popular, but this is in spite of the above, not because of it. Just because its good doesn't mean it couldn't be even better.
You are not overreacting at all. I've played with two of them in previous events and both exuded this feeling in person.
The unfortunate part is that after years of this with many people voicing similar opinions, there really hasn't been much change to how they advocate their format "should be played."
The best advice is for you and your local meta to develop your own banlist and regulate it as problems start showing up. Just make it fair to every member of your group, as some people like cards and strategies that others do not.
This has been my tables best approach. But it does cause problems when we go to events or stores and play with strangers. I run many many decks, so it's no problem for me to have a bag of edh decks specific for outings, but not all of my friends can afford this. They would rather keep their decks designed for our local meta and tend to just borrow from me when out.
The fourth one is the most bothersome. If players have to pressure their peers into not playing certain cards regularly, how do they think this is being done? I don't like it. It's their format, and this is a time in Magic's history where formats are seeing more and more aggressive banwaves, so it's okay that they're more conservative with putting things on the banlist, I think, but I would also think they could have a larger circle to talk with about this stuff.
You can always create your own variant like the guys of Centurion, Leviathan and Oathbreaker did.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
It worked though... *points at the popularity of the format*
I think if they tried to control everything that is broken in EDH there would be not a lot of cards left and a lot of really fun cards would be banned. It is so easy to break things, but there isn't actually much incentive to do so in a casual format.
Are some of these issues due to people going online with their EDH play during the pandemic?
It worked though... *points at the popularity of the format*
Idk about their involvement helping the formats popularity. Looking back over the past 8+ years my interest has grown mainly due to the loss of extended, the gradual decay of modern, the lack of legacy support, and a personal hatred for standard.
Many content creators have voiced a similar situation, where edh has kinda just defaulted to being popular since wotc has repeatedly made it clear that older formats are not how they make money.
On top of that, while I love the core flavor and concepts of edh, every time a needlessly random rule change or ban occurs, I just want the RC to stop tampering with the format.
It's understandable for those who control the banlist and rules for major formats like standard to tune and ban frequently, since they have event results, mtgo data, arena data, and access to hundreds of employees that can understand the dynamics of a format at any given time.
But a handful of people deciding rules for an entire format based on very little data and personal opinion is just bad.
EDH was created to be on the more casual side than cutthroat. Should RC open up and observe the rest of the community? Definitely, but their style of EDH seem to fit its ideal well, flavor + big plays > quick combo with high % of success, just like my own group. (Though we all have competitive decks when we're in the mood for blood)
I don't mind the current ban list. Some cards may no longer be an issue so they could be taken down, but there are several cards I wouldn't mind see put on it either. I also wouldn't mind seeing a separate ban list for EDH and cEDH, though RC noted that they won't draw the line between the two.
If there's one change I'd like to see immediately, would be lowering starting life total to 30.
Idk about their involvement helping the formats popularity.
Lol. Yeah it's not RC's merit. It totally got popular because competitive players found the format and said "hey, let's twist this!".
You are wrong if you think that the majority of EDH players started because they weren't happy with competitive format anymore like you.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
A lot of people conflate the format's success with the RC's involvement, which is an understandable logical leap, but there's really no evidence of such. If anything, the format is popular because of WotC's involvement, as there have been incredibly sharp jumps after every Commander set release.
Sheldon took the idea from Adam Staley who created the format up in Alaska, brought it to the rest of the US, and the populace took it and ran with it because it was a good idea. The RC's involvement since then has had a neutral to slightly negative effect on the format, while WotC has smartly thrown their weight behind it and exploded its popularity via constant support.
I only follow Shivam on Twitter, i don't know how the rest of them feel about stuff, but I definitely don't think that the health of the format can be attributed to someone who given his own way would ban ALL planeswalkers and Sol Ring. A lot of the banned stuff would just naturally be discouraged, and he seems to have a lot of disdain for the Commander specific cards that do such a good job of getting new people to join. there could be some room in between, but I don't think the RC is any better for this format than the Pro Tour was for Modern as far as choices with them in mind.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I only follow Shivam on Twitter, i don't know how the rest of them feel about stuff, but I definitely don't think that the health of the format can be attributed to someone who given his own way would ban ALL planeswalkers and Sol Ring. A lot of the banned stuff would just naturally be discouraged, and he seems to have a lot of disdain for the Commander specific cards that do such a good job of getting new people to join. there could be some room in between, but I don't think the RC is any better for this format than the Pro Tour was for Modern as far as choices with them in mind.
I can't even wrap my head around how terrible their meta must be that planeswalkers are more than a slight nuisance. Play creatures with CMC less than 7 ffs. I do agree that Sol Ring (and Crypt and probably Vault) would be banned in an ideal world, but they're not the worst offenders still legal.
More than that though? For the life of me I can't understand how backwards people are about the Commander-specific cards. I've been playing EDH since it first started gaining traction among the general populace (~Shards I'd say) and the cards WotC has specifically designed for the format have been some of the coolest things to happen to it. Derevi would've been banned when the tuck rule got changed if the RC was competent, but other than that one slip I'm very happy with WotC's exploration of the design space.
Then I remember that the average player thinks Oloro is busted beyond belief and sigh heavily.
A lot of people conflate the format's success with the RC's involvement, which is an understandable logical leap, but there's really no evidence of such. If anything, the format is popular because of WotC's involvement, as there have been incredibly sharp jumps after every Commander set release.
You think that wotc decided to get involved with a fanmade format for the first time ever just because, or because that format was really really popular?
You thinking that designs like planeswalker and Oloro are good for the format because "they are not busted enough" shows how much you understand nothing of this format. If EDH started with this phylosophy, it would have become a forgettable format really fast.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
A lot of people conflate the format's success with the RC's involvement, which is an understandable logical leap, but there's really no evidence of such. If anything, the format is popular because of WotC's involvement, as there have been incredibly sharp jumps after every Commander set release.
You think that wotc decided to get involved with a fanmade format for the first time ever just because, or because that format was really really popular?
You thinking that designs like planeswalker and Oloro are good for the format because "they are not busted enough" shows how much you understand nothing of this format. If EDH started with this phylosophy, it would have become a forgettable format really fast.
Format is created by fans (not the RC) > Format is co-opted by the RC which establishes initial ban list > Format gains a modest amount of popularity > WotC supports the format > The format explodes in popularity > People begin realizing that the RC is out of touch (which is what we're discussing here)
Seems like a pretty clear progression to me.
I don't understand why you have to be so combative and put up straw-men like you're doing, its not super productive. You doing alright bud?
Format is co-opted by the RC which establishes initial ban list > Format gains a modest amount of popularity
That's just your opinion based on your personal bias for RC and treat it like it's the golden truth.
You ok bro? Try to play with planeswalker more, maybe you'll feel better. May i suggest you Oathbreaker?
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
while i don't agree with the style of gameplay the rules committee advocates, and i too feel they're stagnantly stuck in 2010, i think they do an okay enough job for now.
the ever rising prices of some reserved list cards may call a lot of that into judgement very soon. the difference between owning a gaea's cradle, and an earthcraft, and not owning them is pretty huge with the disparity growing larger all the time. some of these reserve list cards are just going to make an entire class of player unable to compete against the other - which causes interest to wane on a longer timeline. the point here being that they may have to revise their stances on expensive cards being banned to prevent ubiquity, or start adding things over an identifiable value to the ban list. the social contract and talk it out with your group doesn't hold water any more because of the surge in popularity. you walk into a store you want the same banned list as the other store you walked into.
while wizards has continued support for the format, and run with it, and yes that has caused a huge surge in popularity, i do sometimes wonder if that's what's really wrong with the format right now. so many of these newer cards, or edh designed cards, just break the format in half. they do out of control absurd things, or combo in ways no one saw right away. its changed the nature of deckbuilding, especially since 2010. its less about finding obscure stuff or cute interactions and way more easy these days to go OOPS THAT'S EXPROPRIATE MANA AND I CAN COPY IT TOO! one approach is definitely more in line with deckbuilding in 2010, than deckbuilding in 2020. there is a little bit of a disconnect there sometimes it seems.
i think those are where the rules committee is weakest right now, and are definitely slow to act.
for now they stay largely hands off, and that's... honestly i can appreciate that. what i enjoy in edh, and the cards i enjoy using, are much different from sheldon's favored ones - most of them showing up on his do not play these cards list - but because they're hands off... well i can still play those cards and strategies for now. it means we all get a more diversified environment rather than some kind of iron will being executed that makes playing entire archetypes impossible. it means that we're free to explore different archetypes, different cards, and basically do whatever we personally want with the format instead of just lining up craw wurms the way he seems to favor.
now if we really want to discuss something problematic let's talk about sheldon's renown and platform, and how his insistence to avoid certain cards/strategies translates to the community largely trying to deligitimize those cards/strategies resulting in less experienced players being unable to handle those cards/strategies and how that may eventually lead to a banning due to unpopular opinion of them... yeah i think that has some merit too and that social contract against things like the cards on his list needs to be dropped from all edh terminology.
There's a few picks like Sylvan Primordial that I would like to see as playable but it's not a big enough issue to matter.
I mean there were a few situations like when Flash was legal and Sylvan Primordial was banned which made no sense. People where scooping just when a Flash was played.
There's a few picks like Sylvan Primordial that I would like to see as playable but it's not a big enough issue to matter.
I mean there were a few situations like when Flash was legal and Sylvan Primordial was banned which made no sense. People where scooping just when a Flash was played.
Yeah we've moved pretty far past Sylvan Primordial as a format now. Sure, its a big powerful effect but we've got better things to do with our mana these days. Remember when Deadeye Navigator and Seedborn Muse were considered unstoppable, game-breaking cards? Man the format has evolved a lot lol.
i do sometimes wonder if that's what's really wrong with the format right now.
Congratulations, you got it.
RC's "style gameplay" is what made the format popular. A lot of people wanted to play that kind of magic and couldn't everywhere else.
Then wotc came and printed a lot of bull*****. They were clearly clueless about what the format was about (and it's not hard to see. Maro still is. They tought that tucking was a feature and not a bug. 2013 commanders were a broken mess. And so on).
So nowadays the format evolved and became way more broken. It's natural of course, after all more cards = more broken combinations, it's inevitable. But with commander it happened too fast. "2010 gameplay" is what many people still want to play, so i can't blame the RC for clinging to it.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
i do sometimes wonder if that's what's really wrong with the format right now.
Congratulations, you got it.
RC's "style gameplay" is what made the format popular. A lot of people wanted to play that kind of magic and couldn't everywhere else.
Then wotc came and printed a lot of bull*****. They were clearly clueless about what the format was about (and it's not hard to see. Maro still is. They tought that tucking was a feature and not a bug. 2013 commanders were a broken mess. And so on).
So nowadays the format evolved and became way more broken. It's natural of course, after all more cards = more broken combinations, it's inevitable. But with commander it happened too fast. "2010 gameplay" is what many people still want to play, so i can't blame the RC for clinging to it.
yeah. i find my old lists sometimes, back from 2010. they're vastly different. way more laid back, slower, but way more complex, synergistic, and more fun to play. games were wildly unpredictable because you were trying to make a perfect machine using imperfect parts.
i look at my lists in 2020 and a lot of them are similar to each other now with the majority of the deck not even having existed 10 years ago. everything has kinda become jam these newly printed format aimed cards that are ridiculously strong, and bolster them with some reserve list power. if you're in blue you need XYZ, if you're in green you must run this. its not even about synergizing with your commander either most of the time. its about keeping up with the other people who also run xyz because if you don't you just get steamrolled because of how quickly card design out paced the format. if you don't run those you end up at this severe disadvantage.
its wildly different, not necessarily bad, just different. if anything i wouldn't mind the committee being more aggressive in banning some of those cards. the ones specifically designed for edh with big splashy effects that break games, designed by people who don't necessarily play the format or understand its nuances.
its also made deck building somewhat harder as you go man i need this this and that, but for each one of those that became a defining card, thats one less fun card you can jam, and if you dont' run them you end up with a deck operating on a much lower tier than your store regulars so now everyone is involved in this arms race. who can power out expropriate fastest, who can copy it the most, how many cyclonic rifts can we see go off in the next hour. the format as a whole moves away from being about a commander and more about a subset of cards.
Here's the thing: EDH has become wildly more popular since WotC started paying attention to the format and it is intellectually dishonest to say otherwise. All of the sales data and even simple logic bears that out.
With every Commander release EDH becomes more popular, meanwhile the RC lazes about and ignores obvious areas of improvement for the format. Occam's razor wants to have a word with you, and its not 'The RC is responsible for the format's popularity.' If people wanted to play the RC's way at first, we've collectively moved past that now, and the people are hungry for more and more new toys. On a personal level I know that I start losing interest in EDH when there's a long dry spell for interesting goodies, YMMV of course.
This is purely speculation, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the Commander products hadn't been printed we'd have all lost interest by now because the format would've gotten stale. Cool new toys get us pumped!
There's a lot of misinformed folks who claim that WotC is killing EDH when that couldn't be further from the truth. The precons bring more people in, more legends in each set bring more people in, more big splashy multiplayer cards bring more people in, and honestly the things breaking the format at any given point are usually older cards that either take waaaaayyyyy too long to get banned, never get banned, or in fact get unbanned inexplicably (coughProteanHulkcough).
As to lists becoming more streamlined and less varied: that is a consequence of time and internet access, it was always going to happen. The hive mind weeds out what is good and what is bad at an exponentially accelerating rate, which is honestly fine since most people would agree that doing powerful things is fun. Slamming haymakers is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game (after interaction I'd say personally), its just that the collective definition of what constitutes a haymaker has... evolved.
Here's the thing: EDH has become wildly more popular since WotC started paying attention to the format and it is intellectually dishonest to say otherwise. All of the sales data and even simple logic bears that out.
Yeah and why wotc choose EDH and not something else to print a dedicated product? Why they didn't choose pauper, simple highlander, 2hg?
If wotc intervetion is the only thing that made the format popular and the RC has no merit, why wotc isn't pushing other thing like tiny leaders or oathbreaker?
Why other casual wotc products like planechase or archenemy sucked balls compared to commander?
Seems pretty clear that "wotc decides to print a dedicated product" is a factor, but not the only one.
Maybe you are just ignoring the fact that, while indeed wotc greatly boosted the format popularity, it choose EDH because it was already a very popular casual variant. And why is that? Because of RC.
If people wanted to play the RC's way at first, we've collectively moved past that now, and the people are hungry for more and more new toys.
Oh, i love how you can decide what people should like. I'll surely stop to play slower decks and start to play ramp+expropriate now!
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Look, I feel like I've stated pretty clearly that the RC took the format from its originators, brought it to the masses, and it was popular. That can't be discounted and credit is given where it is due. You are however overestimating the importance of their continued involvement after that initial instance, given that the largest periods of growth have unequivocally been following WotC's involvement, specifically the release of preconstructed decks.
As to your second point, I'm not sure why you're being so combative. People literally, demonstrably get hyped for the newest, coolest new cards, and literally, demonstrably lose interest in the old stuff as cool new cards and strategies come out. I mean, look at the top commanders on EDHRec, they're almost all cards designed by WotC for EDH. That paints a very clear picture of what people want out of the format.
New players enjoy the RC's style of ramp+expropriate/big dragon/other bomb, and for the most part very quickly evolve their play into something more inherently interesting as they grow. Not everyone gets to the point where they find a cEDH level of interaction and complexity enjoyable, but I've been playing EDH for a decade and watched new players slowly lose interest in the stale ramp>dragon>swing format the RC advocates and move into more complicated, interactive decks with more engaging play patterns and knobs to turn.
Hell, my first deck was Karrthus dragons built just the way the RC would build it with 4-cmc ramp spells and way too many bombs and no removal, and I had a blast, but that ***** gets old pretty fast. I thank the RC for their role in taking the format from its creators and showing it to the masses, but I'm enjoying the format more than ever right now, and there's more players in the format than ever right now, the impetus for both being very easy to point to: WotC's involvement in the format.
As to your second point, I'm not sure why you're being so combative.
...New players enjoy the RC's style..., and for the most part very quickly evolve their play into something more inherently interesting as they grow.
I'm going to jump in and suggest it may have to do with the dismissive assumptions you state as fact. There is nothing "more inherently interesting" about your preferred playstyle over another person's preferred way, and the fact that you assume it is inherent means you are blind to your own bias.
Now, I happen to agree that new players don't appreciate things like watching their mana curve and running less-splashy utility cards. I also think that they can grow through experience and speaking with more experienced players. But growing does not equate to changing playstyle. You can grow and build better decks that are still intended to achieve more casual fun. It's all a matter of what you want to get out of the game.
Not everyone gets to the point where they find a cEDH level of interaction and complexity enjoyable, but I've been playing EDH for a decade and watched new players slowly lose interest in the stale ramp>dragon>swing format the RC advocates and move into more complicated, interactive decks with more engaging play patterns and knobs to turn.
I've been playing EDH since 2009, and I've seen it go both ways. I've seen people try to go more competitive, and I've seen people get sick of competitive and just want to have fun and be social. I myself have fluctuated multiple times, whether to match an evolving group's power level (down and then back up as they got better) or simply because I found combo decks super boring and linear.
Interaction and complicated gameplay is a spectrum, not a binary state. Your rather dismissive opinion of the RC's playstyle makes it sound like there isn't any way to play casually and be interactive, but that's just a disingenuous strawman.
One of the great things about Magic is it can be played different ways. The RC likes one pattern of play - great! The format has grown steadily under their supervision. Wizards started promoting it, and it grew more - great again! You know what hasn't had the same consistent growth? Standard, a format entirely under WOTC control, with so many bans that players get whiplash. I've seen lots of players leave standard because they got sick of the format when it was dominated by one deck/playstyle or because they got sick of cards they bought not being usable anymore either due to bans or rotation.
Personally, I tend to side with the RC even when I don't always agree with them. I'd rather see a conservative approach to managing the format than a meddling, micro-managing one. You can't please all the people all the time, and even attempting to do so would be a disaster. The format has been doing well under their purview, and I hope to see it continue.
I also think that they can grow through experience and speaking with more experienced players. But growing does not equate to changing playstyle. You can grow and build better decks that are still intended to achieve more casual fun.
I've been playing EDH since 2009, and I've seen it go both ways. I've seen people try to go more competitive, and I've seen people get sick of competitive and just want to have fun and be social.
Thank you. For some people is really hard to understand these points.
EDH became popular because it was the safe space where you could finally play your janky wurm tribal deck (it's a quite dumb metaphor that oversemplies the issue, but i think it does a great describing what was about for many people). And it still need to be that safe space, because otherwise it will just become vintage #2 or legacy #2.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
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Here are some of the videos in particular that raised some red flags:
https://youtu.be/kCzZbgsasYg
https://youtu.be/dGK8S94omcU
https://youtu.be/3oeTEhizjQQ
https://youtu.be/jtrD61cPPlo
https://youtu.be/LoY37QAOhII
Am I overreacting to their rationale or is it legit?
The RC likes to play EDH in a very, very particular way, and anything that breaks their trudging Jund-y value battlecruiser meta gets banned or frowned out of the group, so they never have to evolve their play or improve their decks. As such the things that are too good in that exact meta get banned, and things that are too good in evolving, real-world metas stay unbanned.
All of that said, there's nothing inherently wrong with the way they choose to enjoy the game. There is, however, something very problematic with the format's stewards having an incredibly narrow view of it. Their rhetoric very clearly and consistently demonstrates that point, especially in their vitriol for anyone who finds enjoyment in pushing the limits of the format.
Obviously the format is still a ton of fun and very popular, but this is in spite of the above, not because of it. Just because its good doesn't mean it couldn't be even better.
The unfortunate part is that after years of this with many people voicing similar opinions, there really hasn't been much change to how they advocate their format "should be played."
The best advice is for you and your local meta to develop your own banlist and regulate it as problems start showing up. Just make it fair to every member of your group, as some people like cards and strategies that others do not.
This has been my tables best approach. But it does cause problems when we go to events or stores and play with strangers. I run many many decks, so it's no problem for me to have a bag of edh decks specific for outings, but not all of my friends can afford this. They would rather keep their decks designed for our local meta and tend to just borrow from me when out.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I think if they tried to control everything that is broken in EDH there would be not a lot of cards left and a lot of really fun cards would be banned. It is so easy to break things, but there isn't actually much incentive to do so in a casual format.
Are some of these issues due to people going online with their EDH play during the pandemic?
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Idk about their involvement helping the formats popularity. Looking back over the past 8+ years my interest has grown mainly due to the loss of extended, the gradual decay of modern, the lack of legacy support, and a personal hatred for standard.
Many content creators have voiced a similar situation, where edh has kinda just defaulted to being popular since wotc has repeatedly made it clear that older formats are not how they make money.
On top of that, while I love the core flavor and concepts of edh, every time a needlessly random rule change or ban occurs, I just want the RC to stop tampering with the format.
It's understandable for those who control the banlist and rules for major formats like standard to tune and ban frequently, since they have event results, mtgo data, arena data, and access to hundreds of employees that can understand the dynamics of a format at any given time.
But a handful of people deciding rules for an entire format based on very little data and personal opinion is just bad.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I don't mind the current ban list. Some cards may no longer be an issue so they could be taken down, but there are several cards I wouldn't mind see put on it either. I also wouldn't mind seeing a separate ban list for EDH and cEDH, though RC noted that they won't draw the line between the two.
If there's one change I'd like to see immediately, would be lowering starting life total to 30.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Lol. Yeah it's not RC's merit. It totally got popular because competitive players found the format and said "hey, let's twist this!".
You are wrong if you think that the majority of EDH players started because they weren't happy with competitive format anymore like you.
Sheldon took the idea from Adam Staley who created the format up in Alaska, brought it to the rest of the US, and the populace took it and ran with it because it was a good idea. The RC's involvement since then has had a neutral to slightly negative effect on the format, while WotC has smartly thrown their weight behind it and exploded its popularity via constant support.
I can't even wrap my head around how terrible their meta must be that planeswalkers are more than a slight nuisance. Play creatures with CMC less than 7 ffs. I do agree that Sol Ring (and Crypt and probably Vault) would be banned in an ideal world, but they're not the worst offenders still legal.
More than that though? For the life of me I can't understand how backwards people are about the Commander-specific cards. I've been playing EDH since it first started gaining traction among the general populace (~Shards I'd say) and the cards WotC has specifically designed for the format have been some of the coolest things to happen to it. Derevi would've been banned when the tuck rule got changed if the RC was competent, but other than that one slip I'm very happy with WotC's exploration of the design space.
Then I remember that the average player thinks Oloro is busted beyond belief and sigh heavily.
You think that wotc decided to get involved with a fanmade format for the first time ever just because, or because that format was really really popular?
You thinking that designs like planeswalker and Oloro are good for the format because "they are not busted enough" shows how much you understand nothing of this format. If EDH started with this phylosophy, it would have become a forgettable format really fast.
Format is created by fans (not the RC) > Format is co-opted by the RC which establishes initial ban list > Format gains a modest amount of popularity > WotC supports the format > The format explodes in popularity > People begin realizing that the RC is out of touch (which is what we're discussing here)
Seems like a pretty clear progression to me.
I don't understand why you have to be so combative and put up straw-men like you're doing, its not super productive. You doing alright bud?
That's just your opinion based on your personal bias for RC and treat it like it's the golden truth.
You ok bro? Try to play with planeswalker more, maybe you'll feel better. May i suggest you Oathbreaker?
the ever rising prices of some reserved list cards may call a lot of that into judgement very soon. the difference between owning a gaea's cradle, and an earthcraft, and not owning them is pretty huge with the disparity growing larger all the time. some of these reserve list cards are just going to make an entire class of player unable to compete against the other - which causes interest to wane on a longer timeline. the point here being that they may have to revise their stances on expensive cards being banned to prevent ubiquity, or start adding things over an identifiable value to the ban list. the social contract and talk it out with your group doesn't hold water any more because of the surge in popularity. you walk into a store you want the same banned list as the other store you walked into.
while wizards has continued support for the format, and run with it, and yes that has caused a huge surge in popularity, i do sometimes wonder if that's what's really wrong with the format right now. so many of these newer cards, or edh designed cards, just break the format in half. they do out of control absurd things, or combo in ways no one saw right away. its changed the nature of deckbuilding, especially since 2010. its less about finding obscure stuff or cute interactions and way more easy these days to go OOPS THAT'S EXPROPRIATE MANA AND I CAN COPY IT TOO! one approach is definitely more in line with deckbuilding in 2010, than deckbuilding in 2020. there is a little bit of a disconnect there sometimes it seems.
i think those are where the rules committee is weakest right now, and are definitely slow to act.
for now they stay largely hands off, and that's... honestly i can appreciate that. what i enjoy in edh, and the cards i enjoy using, are much different from sheldon's favored ones - most of them showing up on his do not play these cards list - but because they're hands off... well i can still play those cards and strategies for now. it means we all get a more diversified environment rather than some kind of iron will being executed that makes playing entire archetypes impossible. it means that we're free to explore different archetypes, different cards, and basically do whatever we personally want with the format instead of just lining up craw wurms the way he seems to favor.
now if we really want to discuss something problematic let's talk about sheldon's renown and platform, and how his insistence to avoid certain cards/strategies translates to the community largely trying to deligitimize those cards/strategies resulting in less experienced players being unable to handle those cards/strategies and how that may eventually lead to a banning due to unpopular opinion of them... yeah i think that has some merit too and that social contract against things like the cards on his list needs to be dropped from all edh terminology.
I mean there were a few situations like when Flash was legal and Sylvan Primordial was banned which made no sense. People where scooping just when a Flash was played.
Yeah we've moved pretty far past Sylvan Primordial as a format now. Sure, its a big powerful effect but we've got better things to do with our mana these days. Remember when Deadeye Navigator and Seedborn Muse were considered unstoppable, game-breaking cards? Man the format has evolved a lot lol.
Congratulations, you got it.
RC's "style gameplay" is what made the format popular. A lot of people wanted to play that kind of magic and couldn't everywhere else.
Then wotc came and printed a lot of bull*****. They were clearly clueless about what the format was about (and it's not hard to see. Maro still is. They tought that tucking was a feature and not a bug. 2013 commanders were a broken mess. And so on).
So nowadays the format evolved and became way more broken. It's natural of course, after all more cards = more broken combinations, it's inevitable. But with commander it happened too fast. "2010 gameplay" is what many people still want to play, so i can't blame the RC for clinging to it.
yeah. i find my old lists sometimes, back from 2010. they're vastly different. way more laid back, slower, but way more complex, synergistic, and more fun to play. games were wildly unpredictable because you were trying to make a perfect machine using imperfect parts.
i look at my lists in 2020 and a lot of them are similar to each other now with the majority of the deck not even having existed 10 years ago. everything has kinda become jam these newly printed format aimed cards that are ridiculously strong, and bolster them with some reserve list power. if you're in blue you need XYZ, if you're in green you must run this. its not even about synergizing with your commander either most of the time. its about keeping up with the other people who also run xyz because if you don't you just get steamrolled because of how quickly card design out paced the format. if you don't run those you end up at this severe disadvantage.
its wildly different, not necessarily bad, just different. if anything i wouldn't mind the committee being more aggressive in banning some of those cards. the ones specifically designed for edh with big splashy effects that break games, designed by people who don't necessarily play the format or understand its nuances.
its also made deck building somewhat harder as you go man i need this this and that, but for each one of those that became a defining card, thats one less fun card you can jam, and if you dont' run them you end up with a deck operating on a much lower tier than your store regulars so now everyone is involved in this arms race. who can power out expropriate fastest, who can copy it the most, how many cyclonic rifts can we see go off in the next hour. the format as a whole moves away from being about a commander and more about a subset of cards.
With every Commander release EDH becomes more popular, meanwhile the RC lazes about and ignores obvious areas of improvement for the format. Occam's razor wants to have a word with you, and its not 'The RC is responsible for the format's popularity.' If people wanted to play the RC's way at first, we've collectively moved past that now, and the people are hungry for more and more new toys. On a personal level I know that I start losing interest in EDH when there's a long dry spell for interesting goodies, YMMV of course.
This is purely speculation, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the Commander products hadn't been printed we'd have all lost interest by now because the format would've gotten stale. Cool new toys get us pumped!
There's a lot of misinformed folks who claim that WotC is killing EDH when that couldn't be further from the truth. The precons bring more people in, more legends in each set bring more people in, more big splashy multiplayer cards bring more people in, and honestly the things breaking the format at any given point are usually older cards that either take waaaaayyyyy too long to get banned, never get banned, or in fact get unbanned inexplicably (coughProteanHulkcough).
As to lists becoming more streamlined and less varied: that is a consequence of time and internet access, it was always going to happen. The hive mind weeds out what is good and what is bad at an exponentially accelerating rate, which is honestly fine since most people would agree that doing powerful things is fun. Slamming haymakers is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game (after interaction I'd say personally), its just that the collective definition of what constitutes a haymaker has... evolved.
Yeah and why wotc choose EDH and not something else to print a dedicated product? Why they didn't choose pauper, simple highlander, 2hg?
If wotc intervetion is the only thing that made the format popular and the RC has no merit, why wotc isn't pushing other thing like tiny leaders or oathbreaker?
Why other casual wotc products like planechase or archenemy sucked balls compared to commander?
Seems pretty clear that "wotc decides to print a dedicated product" is a factor, but not the only one.
Maybe you are just ignoring the fact that, while indeed wotc greatly boosted the format popularity, it choose EDH because it was already a very popular casual variant. And why is that? Because of RC.
Oh, i love how you can decide what people should like. I'll surely stop to play slower decks and start to play ramp+expropriate now!
As to your second point, I'm not sure why you're being so combative. People literally, demonstrably get hyped for the newest, coolest new cards, and literally, demonstrably lose interest in the old stuff as cool new cards and strategies come out. I mean, look at the top commanders on EDHRec, they're almost all cards designed by WotC for EDH. That paints a very clear picture of what people want out of the format.
New players enjoy the RC's style of ramp+expropriate/big dragon/other bomb, and for the most part very quickly evolve their play into something more inherently interesting as they grow. Not everyone gets to the point where they find a cEDH level of interaction and complexity enjoyable, but I've been playing EDH for a decade and watched new players slowly lose interest in the stale ramp>dragon>swing format the RC advocates and move into more complicated, interactive decks with more engaging play patterns and knobs to turn.
Hell, my first deck was Karrthus dragons built just the way the RC would build it with 4-cmc ramp spells and way too many bombs and no removal, and I had a blast, but that ***** gets old pretty fast. I thank the RC for their role in taking the format from its creators and showing it to the masses, but I'm enjoying the format more than ever right now, and there's more players in the format than ever right now, the impetus for both being very easy to point to: WotC's involvement in the format.
Now, I happen to agree that new players don't appreciate things like watching their mana curve and running less-splashy utility cards. I also think that they can grow through experience and speaking with more experienced players. But growing does not equate to changing playstyle. You can grow and build better decks that are still intended to achieve more casual fun. It's all a matter of what you want to get out of the game. I've been playing EDH since 2009, and I've seen it go both ways. I've seen people try to go more competitive, and I've seen people get sick of competitive and just want to have fun and be social. I myself have fluctuated multiple times, whether to match an evolving group's power level (down and then back up as they got better) or simply because I found combo decks super boring and linear.
Interaction and complicated gameplay is a spectrum, not a binary state. Your rather dismissive opinion of the RC's playstyle makes it sound like there isn't any way to play casually and be interactive, but that's just a disingenuous strawman.
One of the great things about Magic is it can be played different ways. The RC likes one pattern of play - great! The format has grown steadily under their supervision. Wizards started promoting it, and it grew more - great again! You know what hasn't had the same consistent growth? Standard, a format entirely under WOTC control, with so many bans that players get whiplash. I've seen lots of players leave standard because they got sick of the format when it was dominated by one deck/playstyle or because they got sick of cards they bought not being usable anymore either due to bans or rotation.
Personally, I tend to side with the RC even when I don't always agree with them. I'd rather see a conservative approach to managing the format than a meddling, micro-managing one. You can't please all the people all the time, and even attempting to do so would be a disaster. The format has been doing well under their purview, and I hope to see it continue.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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Thank you. For some people is really hard to understand these points.
EDH became popular because it was the safe space where you could finally play your janky wurm tribal deck (it's a quite dumb metaphor that oversemplies the issue, but i think it does a great describing what was about for many people). And it still need to be that safe space, because otherwise it will just become vintage #2 or legacy #2.