Lion's eye diamond is a safe ban. No one ever uses this card 'honestly' - it's purely for unfair things like storm decks and auriok salvager recursion. So even if it isn't format warping or crucial to certain types of unfun decks....it's not like anyone's going to miss it. Cards like worldgorger dragon and staff of domination work the same way. No one uses those for face value, they use them to combo out.
Cards like power artifact on the other hand, do have legitimate applications. You can't just ban everything that is part of an infinite combo...there are hundreds, maybe thousands of such cards.
In my mind, protean hulk, kokusho, panoptic mirror, and sway of the stars warrant unban consideration. And I wouldn't object to necro, sol ring, and mana crypt getting the axe.
Protean Hulk should stay banned because it actually is one of the ultimate culprits in "this card is never used fairly". Almost every time Protean Hulk goes to the graveyard, the game instantly ends. A card should not say "When this card goes to the graveyard from the battlefield, you win the game" for seven mana.
I am interested in seeing what people's thoughts are about Palinchron though. This card is literally used for nothing but infinite combos and as a result it perfectly fits the criterion of banning a card that is used for nothing but degeneracy. It seems like every time I look at the ban list, I find even more inconsistencies in it.
I disagree actually...there are plenty of decks that would love protean hulk as an honest card. For example, kresh, savra, teneb, etc. Some of them (like kresh) aren't even in the right colors for hulk to combo-win. Being able to sac it to greater good, draw a bunch, and replace it with a titan/duplicant/deadwood treefolk/whatever is a pretty juicy option.
I don't see any real problem with Palinchron. Firstly, it does have legitimate uses (but then, so does Hulk). The main thing for me is that 'all' it can do is make infinite mana. Staff and Hulk win you the game instantly. Sure, Worldgorger only makes infinite mana too, but it's much faster, and there is literally no reason why you'd play the card otherwise.
Lets be honest with ourselves. Most competitive players have no intention of using any of the cards "honestly" or "fairly". That is the entire point of playing Magic Heck, players will try to break Goblin Piker if able. Most players will seek to break a card, be it for winning the game, fulfilling some devious combo, etc.
Now, it is true that Palinchron is generally used for some less-than-honest purposes but even when it is used to fulfil infinite combos, there is one huge safety valve which could stop a Palinchron combo dead in its tracks -- spot removal in response to its activated ability. Granted, that player is probably running some countermagic suite but we are talking about a check and balance consisting of an entire table.
There should be a special Banlist FAQ on the Eldrazis but here's the Reader's Digest version: -
It costs 15 mana to cast. Now, at 15 mana, I think it is reasonable to expect something which tiptoes on the line of awesomeness.
Related to the above point, if you DON'T have 15 mana during the early parts of the game, chances are, you are holding an overpriced dead card
In a multiplayer group, if at least one player runs Bribery, there goes your tentacly ones.
This list is not exclusive, of course but I think that's the gist of the argument.
In both the case of the Eldrazis and Genesis Wave, it is not even good in most decks that can run them; indeed, you will need a particular build if you really want to abuse it.
People complain about Emmy because Path/StP/Terminate can't deal with him. Those people really need to be running Brittle Effigy and other removal spells on sticks instead of relying on cheap spells.
Seriously, Seal of Doom kills Emrakul. That's how pathetic his defenses are.
Lets be honest with ourselves. Most competitive players have no intention of using any of the cards "honestly" or "fairly". That is the entire point of playing Magic Heck, players will try to break Goblin Piker if able. Most players will seek to break a card, be it for winning the game, fulfilling some devious combo, etc.
EDH is supposed to be a multiplayer format filled with interaction. Combos aren't interactive, the banlist is supposed to discourage that. Cards that are clearly terrible UNLESS you combo-win with them are ideal candidates for banlisting.
Now, it is true that Palinchron is generally used for some less-than-honest purposes but even when it is used to fulfil infinite combos, there is one huge safety valve which could stop a Palinchron combo dead in its tracks -- spot removal in response to its activated ability. Granted, that player is probably running some countermagic suite but we are talking about a check and balance consisting of an entire table.
Its activated ability is self-bounce....spot removal only works if they don't have enough mana to activate again in response (and if they're about to go infinite, that implies they have enough to re-cast palinchron)....so no, that's not a good solution at all.
I don't see any real problem with Palinchron. Firstly, it does have legitimate uses (but then, so does Hulk). The main thing for me is that 'all' it can do is make infinite mana. Staff and Hulk win you the game instantly. Sure, Worldgorger only makes infinite mana too, but it's much faster, and there is literally no reason why you'd play the card otherwise.
LED + Salvagers makes only infinite mana too, and that's banned.
Dragon is faster, but it is grossly vulnerable, so it's not like it's a totally unstoppable combo. Graveyard hate stuffs the combo. Instant speed answers of almost any kind disrupts the combo as well. I understand the reasoning behind banning Dragon in that it nobody uses the card other than to combo off, but can't you say the same for Palinchron as well? When was the last time someone actually played Palinchron without using it to generate infinite mana in mind? Honestly, I can't remember a time that happened myself.
There's plenty of ways that the Hulk can be used fairly - you really need to run 5 color to do a game ending Hulk in one trigger, and some of the combo pieces are pretty terrible.
Problem with banning combo only cards like Palinchron is that the ban list would get unwieldy extremely quickly. Yes, Palinchron is basically only used for infinite mana combo, but then again, we could go back and forth all day about cards that only really are played properly in combos. It's on an enormous list of problematic blue cards that are about as 'fun' for the person receiving them as a good mindslaver. We could also add Mind Over Matter, Intuition, Sharuum, The Hegemon, Power Artifact, sculpting steel, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Erayo, soratami ascendant, forbid, time warp, time stretch, and plenty of others. Also, if you want to kill a Pally, ice it in response to his ETB trigger if you've got the removal, not the bounce.
I am an example of someone who used Staff in a fair manner. I used it in MWC for utility and card draw. I just think that with Academy banned, and Rofellos banned as a general, Staff is fine to unban. If anything, Rofellos needs the hard ban and if you went infinite with Staff otherwise you deserve it. Banning Staff makes a little bit more sense to me than banning Banefire.
LED + Salvagers makes only infinite mana too, and that's banned.
The same reasoning applies, though. You can happily go off on turn two, and there's once again basically no other reason why you'd play LED.
I understand the reasoning behind banning Dragon in that it nobody uses the card other than to combo off, but can't you say the same for Palinchron as well? When was the last time someone actually played Palinchron without using it to generate infinite mana in mind? Honestly, I can't remember a time that happened myself.
It depends exactly what you mean. Would as many people play the card if there was no potential to get infinite mana with it? Probably not. But not many people actively build around the combo, or even make that much of an effort to assemble it. It's just so slow and vulnerable that most of the time it's not worth expending too much effort over.
The only card I still find questionable is Recurring Nightmare. And that's just because I love that card I was sad when I started to get into edh here and saw it was banned. I know its crazy good.
The thing about Staff is that it not only provides your infinite combo, it also provides you with whatever you need. Pesky creatures getting you down? Tap em all! Need something to finish the job? Draw your deck! Did your opponent foolishly try to kill you without using general damage? Shut them down! I would love to throw a Staff of Domination in my comboriffic Patron of the Moon deck, but I feel that it really is just that broken.
On the other hand, I would love to see Painter's Servant be unbanned, and ban Grindstone, possibly Iona. The servant is really a ton of fun, a lot more fun than those two cards, and hardly broken without them. He allows certain generals a much easier method of playing, where ordinarily they would be hindered by their inherent downsides. I personally think that his downsides are outweighed by his upsides.
EDH is supposed to be a multiplayer format filled with interaction. Combos aren't interactive, the banlist is supposed to discourage that. Cards that are clearly terrible UNLESS you combo-win with them are ideal candidates for banlisting.
Palinchron is not "clearly terrible" unless you combo-win. It is admittedly rare but I have used Palinchron as a chump-blocker many a times. Even without the combo, it is still a 4/5 flyer which would usually leave you with open mana as soon as its triggered ability resolves -- and only heaven knows how nifty it is for a control player to have open mana.
Its activated ability is self-bounce....spot removal only works if they don't have enough mana to activate again in response (and if they're about to go infinite, that implies they have enough to re-cast palinchron)....so no, that's not a good solution at all.
Not exactly. A Palinchron combo usually has to survive the first few iterations of cast-and-bounce in order to go infinite and it is at this point that the combo is at its most vulnerable point. In an hypothetical example, starting with 6 Islands and a Extraplanar Lens in play (imprinting Island), the combo player will tap for 12 blue mana, spend 7 to play Palinchron and have 5 mana floating, in which 4 would subsequently be used to bounce Palinchron. Now, at this point, the blue player is tapped out and with 1 mana left in the mana pool, it is very possible for the table to either destroy Palinchron, destroy the Extraplanar Lens, etc. in response to the activated ability. Even without going into colourless spells, any decks of any colour(s) can potentially stop Palinchron from going to the next iteration of the cast-bounce.
You may already know how the combo works but what I am trying to highlight is that just because a player is "about to go infinite", it does not follow that the player already has an arbitrarily large amount of mana in his/her mana pool before going off. It is true that a player could wait to combo off when he/she has more resources as a backup but at this point, so the other players would similarly have more resources to stymie the Palinchron combo.
I would love to see some Protean Hulk play. I think it's a cool card. Then again, I suppose I haven't seen everything it can do, but the only degenerate combos I've seen out of it would require you to dedicate a lot of slots to dead cards, and it would probably be more practical for much simpler decks.
Staff of Domination should definitely stay banned. It provides defense while you ready your combo, it serves as a piece of many combos, and once you combo out (presumably with infinite mana), it's an outlet ... way too effective in a format like EDH.
The only card I still find questionable is Recurring Nightmare. And that's just because I love that card I was sad when I started to get into edh here and saw it was banned. I know its crazy good.
I'm with you in this boat, i friggen love Recurring Nightmare.. one of my top 5 cards for sure
Reasoning: This is a multiplayer format, let politics rein in people who abuse these cards. If someone insists on being a pain in the ass AND is somehow so good at deck design/playing that they can remain invincible, then handle it locally. Just because your table has trouble handling Academy doesn't mean my table should have its toys taken away.
Re: Crypt and Ring - these are staples, don't you dare mess with them.
Re: Emrakul - 15 mana deserves this much power, learn to build better decks if this guy is consistently wrecking you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
Speaking as "the solution guy", colors outside of black have thin access to gy hate. Green has some stuff, but it's pretty suboptimal sorcery speed stuff. (Relic is fantastic and in every deck, of course.)
Moreover even if you run gy hate, not everyone does. If you are the one guy controlling gy's at a table, everyone else is running decks that combo better than yours.
Just my $.02.
Black does have the lion's share, but anyone can run the artifact ones.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
Reasoning: This is a multiplayer format, let politics rein in people who abuse these cards. If someone insists on being a pain in the ass AND is somehow so good at deck design/playing that they can remain invincible, then handle it locally. Just because your table has trouble handling Academy doesn't mean my table should have its toys taken away.
Re: Crypt and Ring - these are staples, don't you dare mess with them.
Re: Emrakul - 15 mana deserves this much power, learn to build better decks if this guy is consistently wrecking you.
The banlist isn't there for your playgroup. If your playgroup agrees on stuff like Power 9, then by all means go for it. The RC created these rules primarily so that when I play with you (i.e. strangers), I'm not going to be playing some jerk who combos off turn 2 for 45 minutes.
Not exactly. A Palinchron combo usually has to survive the first few iterations of cast-and-bounce in order to go infinite and it is at this point that the combo is at its most vulnerable point. In an hypothetical example, starting with 6 Islands and a Extraplanar Lens in play (imprinting Island), the combo player will tap for 12 blue mana, spend 7 to play Palinchron and have 5 mana floating, in which 4 would subsequently be used to bounce Palinchron. Now, at this point, the blue player is tapped out and with 1 mana left in the mana pool, it is very possible for the table to either destroy Palinchron, destroy the Extraplanar Lens, etc. in response to the activated ability. Even without going into colourless spells, any decks of any colour(s) can potentially stop Palinchron from going to the next iteration of the cast-bounce.
The blue player lets plainchron's etb resolve before bouncing.
I'm honestly confused as to why Sway of the Stars is banned while none of the other similar effects in blue are. Is the 7 life thing really that relevant?
I'm honestly confused as to why Sway of the Stars is banned while none of the other similar effects in blue are. Is the 7 life thing really that relevant?
I think it is, especially since the player that'd probably get the most mileage out of the card is Jhoira, as in the "Yeah, that's an Emrakul I've got suspended" Jhoira
I think it is, especially since the player that'd probably get the most mileage out of the card is Jhoira, as in the "Yeah, that's an Emrakul I've got suspended" Jhoira
Its also because you can just generate absurd amounts of mana and then kill everyone by dropping something even remotely threatening after Sway resolves. If it didn't have the 7 life clause, it might not have been banned. But it is still better than a Worldpurge.
Its also because you can just generate absurd amounts of mana and then kill everyone by dropping something even remotely threatening after Sway resolves. If it didn't have the 7 life clause, it might not have been banned. But it is still better than a Worldpurge.
Right, but...if you have the mana to cast Sway AND drop a reasonable threat (lets say a 4/4) wouldn't that be 1.) A lot of mana and 2.) A mana cost where winning is not unreasonable?
Sway is like what 10? A 4/4 follow up (assuming you're even lucky enough to get to it) is probably another 4-6 mana so we're pushing 14-16 mana. I'm not mad if that wins.
Right, but...if you have the mana to cast WP AND drop a reasonable threat (lets say a 4/4) wouldn't that be 1.) A lot of mana and 2.) A mana cost where winning is not unreasonable?
Sway is like what 10? A 4/4 follow up (assuming you're even lucky enough to get to it) is probably another 4-6 mana so we're pushing 14-16 mana. I'm not mad if that wins.
Yeah, but let's compare that to Emrakul. That's 15 mana, and that doesn't even win you the game, not even close unless you cheat him into play really early.
Graveyard shenanigans. In fact, it's so bad, I may have to even call Monkeyshines. Sacc outlets in black are easy, and if you have reuseable recursion, it's a pretty easy killer. Not only that, it provides a huge buffer, even if you can't recur it, especially in multiplayer, where it can easily swing your life total hugely. If they aren't going infinite or going for general damage, it's an uphill battle the entire way.
Protean Hulk should stay banned because it actually is one of the ultimate culprits in "this card is never used fairly". Almost every time Protean Hulk goes to the graveyard, the game instantly ends. A card should not say "When this card goes to the graveyard from the battlefield, you win the game" for seven mana.
I am interested in seeing what people's thoughts are about Palinchron though. This card is literally used for nothing but infinite combos and as a result it perfectly fits the criterion of banning a card that is used for nothing but degeneracy. It seems like every time I look at the ban list, I find even more inconsistencies in it.
palinchron I don't see anyone missing.
Now, it is true that Palinchron is generally used for some less-than-honest purposes but even when it is used to fulfil infinite combos, there is one huge safety valve which could stop a Palinchron combo dead in its tracks -- spot removal in response to its activated ability. Granted, that player is probably running some countermagic suite but we are talking about a check and balance consisting of an entire table.
People complain about Emmy because Path/StP/Terminate can't deal with him. Those people really need to be running Brittle Effigy and other removal spells on sticks instead of relying on cheap spells.
Seriously, Seal of Doom kills Emrakul. That's how pathetic his defenses are.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
EDH is supposed to be a multiplayer format filled with interaction. Combos aren't interactive, the banlist is supposed to discourage that. Cards that are clearly terrible UNLESS you combo-win with them are ideal candidates for banlisting.
Its activated ability is self-bounce....spot removal only works if they don't have enough mana to activate again in response (and if they're about to go infinite, that implies they have enough to re-cast palinchron)....so no, that's not a good solution at all.
LED + Salvagers makes only infinite mana too, and that's banned.
Dragon is faster, but it is grossly vulnerable, so it's not like it's a totally unstoppable combo. Graveyard hate stuffs the combo. Instant speed answers of almost any kind disrupts the combo as well. I understand the reasoning behind banning Dragon in that it nobody uses the card other than to combo off, but can't you say the same for Palinchron as well? When was the last time someone actually played Palinchron without using it to generate infinite mana in mind? Honestly, I can't remember a time that happened myself.
Problem with banning combo only cards like Palinchron is that the ban list would get unwieldy extremely quickly. Yes, Palinchron is basically only used for infinite mana combo, but then again, we could go back and forth all day about cards that only really are played properly in combos. It's on an enormous list of problematic blue cards that are about as 'fun' for the person receiving them as a good mindslaver. We could also add Mind Over Matter, Intuition, Sharuum, The Hegemon, Power Artifact, sculpting steel, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Erayo, soratami ascendant, forbid, time warp, time stretch, and plenty of others. Also, if you want to kill a Pally, ice it in response to his ETB trigger if you've got the removal, not the bounce.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
It depends exactly what you mean. Would as many people play the card if there was no potential to get infinite mana with it? Probably not. But not many people actively build around the combo, or even make that much of an effort to assemble it. It's just so slow and vulnerable that most of the time it's not worth expending too much effort over.
On the other hand, I would love to see Painter's Servant be unbanned, and ban Grindstone, possibly Iona. The servant is really a ton of fun, a lot more fun than those two cards, and hardly broken without them. He allows certain generals a much easier method of playing, where ordinarily they would be hindered by their inherent downsides. I personally think that his downsides are outweighed by his upsides.
Palinchron is not "clearly terrible" unless you combo-win. It is admittedly rare but I have used Palinchron as a chump-blocker many a times. Even without the combo, it is still a 4/5 flyer which would usually leave you with open mana as soon as its triggered ability resolves -- and only heaven knows how nifty it is for a control player to have open mana.
Not exactly. A Palinchron combo usually has to survive the first few iterations of cast-and-bounce in order to go infinite and it is at this point that the combo is at its most vulnerable point. In an hypothetical example, starting with 6 Islands and a Extraplanar Lens in play (imprinting Island), the combo player will tap for 12 blue mana, spend 7 to play Palinchron and have 5 mana floating, in which 4 would subsequently be used to bounce Palinchron. Now, at this point, the blue player is tapped out and with 1 mana left in the mana pool, it is very possible for the table to either destroy Palinchron, destroy the Extraplanar Lens, etc. in response to the activated ability. Even without going into colourless spells, any decks of any colour(s) can potentially stop Palinchron from going to the next iteration of the cast-bounce.
You may already know how the combo works but what I am trying to highlight is that just because a player is "about to go infinite", it does not follow that the player already has an arbitrarily large amount of mana in his/her mana pool before going off. It is true that a player could wait to combo off when he/she has more resources as a backup but at this point, so the other players would similarly have more resources to stymie the Palinchron combo.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=353661
I'm with you in this boat, i friggen love Recurring Nightmare.. one of my top 5 cards for sure
Kokusho
Tinker
Gifts
Academy
Staff
Reasoning: This is a multiplayer format, let politics rein in people who abuse these cards. If someone insists on being a pain in the ass AND is somehow so good at deck design/playing that they can remain invincible, then handle it locally. Just because your table has trouble handling Academy doesn't mean my table should have its toys taken away.
Re: Crypt and Ring - these are staples, don't you dare mess with them.
Re: Emrakul - 15 mana deserves this much power, learn to build better decks if this guy is consistently wrecking you.
Black does have the lion's share, but anyone can run the artifact ones.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
The banlist isn't there for your playgroup. If your playgroup agrees on stuff like Power 9, then by all means go for it. The RC created these rules primarily so that when I play with you (i.e. strangers), I'm not going to be playing some jerk who combos off turn 2 for 45 minutes.
The blue player lets plainchron's etb resolve before bouncing.
I'm honestly confused as to why Sway of the Stars is banned while none of the other similar effects in blue are. Is the 7 life thing really that relevant?
I think it is, especially since the player that'd probably get the most mileage out of the card is Jhoira, as in the "Yeah, that's an Emrakul I've got suspended" Jhoira
Its also because you can just generate absurd amounts of mana and then kill everyone by dropping something even remotely threatening after Sway resolves. If it didn't have the 7 life clause, it might not have been banned. But it is still better than a Worldpurge.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Right, but...if you have the mana to cast Sway AND drop a reasonable threat (lets say a 4/4) wouldn't that be 1.) A lot of mana and 2.) A mana cost where winning is not unreasonable?
Sway is like what 10? A 4/4 follow up (assuming you're even lucky enough to get to it) is probably another 4-6 mana so we're pushing 14-16 mana. I'm not mad if that wins.
Yeah, but let's compare that to Emrakul. That's 15 mana, and that doesn't even win you the game, not even close unless you cheat him into play really early.
Graveyard shenanigans. In fact, it's so bad, I may have to even call Monkeyshines. Sacc outlets in black are easy, and if you have reuseable recursion, it's a pretty easy killer. Not only that, it provides a huge buffer, even if you can't recur it, especially in multiplayer, where it can easily swing your life total hugely. If they aren't going infinite or going for general damage, it's an uphill battle the entire way.