Quote from JimboThe banned list is consistent, but it's consistent based off of what they believe the largest % of playerbase they're trying to appeal to finds "Fun", not strict power level. So if you're trying to break a deck, then no, nothing you break is going to get slammed. Hermit Druid is a problem in decks that are designed to be broken. It might destroy some games, but it's easily managed since 1v1 or competitive EDH isn't the point of the format, so the druid being broken doesn't matter.
If you want to host a 1v1 tournie, yeah, ban the Druid, and anything else you feel is too strong. But a victory that has someone going "This is stupid" is far worse for the format than a bunch of people running angry hermit.
Quote from FponkDamnRemember that any bounce card can beat Coalition Victory as well, even if the general has shroud/hexproof - you can always bounce a land.
While CV is a "one-card win" - it really isn't. It requires more set-up than most combos in the format, and at least it's decisive. It's not a lockdown or some such.
What I always wonder is - how do people WANT games to end? In my mind, I'm happiest when a night of EDH has four games that ended four different ways. In my playgroup, we have decks built around just about every win con you can imagine - there's a poison aggro deck, a poison control deck, several combo decks, lockdown decks, general damage via a big general, general damage via voltron, regular creature aggro, token swarms, any number of "win cards" like Felidar Sovereign, and even milling. Heck, one of our players has told us he plans to show off his Lab Maniac Wrexial deck this weekend (with the plan being to mill everyone out, including himself, so he has two ways to win). This, to me, is awesome. If in the midst of all that, someone managed to get out one of each basic land type, a five-color general, and maybe 11-13 mana (so they can have counterspell backup), all in one turn? Awesome!
Which is another thing to remember about Coalition Victory: you say that it isn't like the other "win" cards, because those give you a turn cycle, but THAT ISN'T TRUE. First off, if you're DEDICATED to having your deck win via Test of Endurance or something like it, you have ways to flash it in or sneak it in when people don't expect it. It's certainly possible, and you'd be trying to do so if that was your main win con. But even Coalition Victory gives you at least a turn - because if they're casting their five-color general AND Coalition Victory AND leaving up mana to counter, well then they deserve to win because they have 15+ mana open in a five-color deck. When the game gets to that point, you can't complain when someone wins. More likely, however, they play out their five-color general with a bit of mana open to counter, and then next turn, WHEN THEY UNTAP they play CV. So you really DO get at least as much time as with any other win card, you just have to be a savvy enough player to recognize the signs. Maybe they'll "trick" you once - but that should be it.
Quote from bfellowSo everytime they play the general, you immediately have to kill it in fear of CV.
Quote from StardustThis is the main reason I personally have no problem with Coalition Victory being banned. Having to kill every five-colour general every time they're in play is a pain in the ass. It's not as fun a game to play even with just the shadow of the same instant win over your head.
As for Tooth and Nail, when Protean Hulk got banned I figured it was only a matter of time until its sorcery cousin was banned as well. Maybe it still is just a matter of time, but it's been able to hold out this long, so who knows. Maybe the banning of Protean Hulk was enough to warn people of the dangers of using Tooth and Nail irresponsibly. As for the 9 mana thing, remember that this banned list is targeted at casual players. Half of the time everyone at the table makes it to 9 mana, and at least 95% of the time at least one person does.
Quote from OCPunisherThis isn't Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Standard. People play Titans and Dragons and Eldrazi (oh my).
Quote from GFireflyEEverytime I play any of my generals, it's killed right away, so I don't see a difference between playing one of those and Progenitus. Yes, even my Sisters of Stone Death....get it on the board and dead....every. time. Likewise, I see my opponent's general played, I make a move to kill it. The deck is BUILT to abuse the general, so take away the general and it helps level the playing field. Maybe it's a pain to do, but it's something that must be done.
Quote from JivanmuktaWhen you stare into EDH, I stare back at you.
Quote from bfellowSo everytime they play the general, you immediately have to kill it in fear of CV. If they're playing Progenitus (the most popular 5C legend for example), then you might as well scoop the moment the have enough mana to cast CV the next turn.
The main reason I think the RC banned this and Biorhythm is to have these "unfun" cards not ruin multiplayer games where 1 guy doesn't have to do anything at all except get his lands, general, and cast 1 spell. All the other I win cards, have upkeep or other much easier conditions to disrupt.
Quote from Bottle GnomesYou guys are failing to undestand why the rules council bans cards: they ban cards that are not "fun." Tooth and Nail is fun. You can do a lot of stuff with TaN that is cool and fun, but doesn't always end the game immediately. Coalition Victory does one, unfun thing. If you don't get why one is fun, and the other is not, well, you probably just don't get how the rules council thinks, which is fine.
Also, Protean Hulk is a weird one to ban, but I'm guessing it's because there were more people doing unfun things with him than anything else.
Quote from ISBPathfinderMy guess was it was too easy to abuse it as if you let him dye and get a Karmic Guide you rez and rekill him. It is a creature so green can easily tutor for it whereas T&N is relatively hard for green to go get and usually requires black to do so.
The hulk was all around broken in a lot more ways and it is unpredictable to say how many targets he will bring in which can mean more utility creatures and so larger combos can be achieved at one time.
Quote from ÆthergineerThe Aperture Science Center would like to remind you that the internet isn't a competition, but if it was, you would be winning.
Quote from BladefaustusAmen to you.... you brilliant, brilliant person.
Quote from SyphonIf you weren't male, I'd ask you to marry me.
Quote from GG CronoDoes anyone else think that Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant should really be banned as a general?
Quote from Sinfire Titan
Changing Protean Hulk's color does not trigger his ability.
Quote from FponkDamnWait... so the reason that CV should be banned is because you don't want to have to kill PROGENITUS every time he gets played? I hate to tell you this, man, but if Progenitus gets played and you DON'T kill it, Coalition Victory only gets them the win like, one turn sooner than they would have gotten it anyway. If you can't kill Progenitus, then uhh... well, that's about it for that game anyway.
Quote from bfellowOh my Progenitus hits one of my other opponents or myself for 10 damage! We should all scoop!
On a serious note, coalition Victory ends the game that turn. Progenitus itself cannot kill 3+ players a turn later without some infinite attack phase combo.
Quote from FponkDamnWell, I was assuming he's the general. Anyway, Coalition Victory DOESN'T end the game that turn, is what I'm saying. It's a multi-step process; first, you had to play the five-color legend, a land of each type, and get to 8 mana. If you do that over more than one turn, then you give your opponents every bit as much time to do something as with Test of Endurance. In fact, it's EASIER to handle than Test of Endurance, since every color can remove a creature and/or land. Coalition Victory can only be said to win the game "that turn" if you play it on the same turn as you play out your five-color creature, meaning a minimum of about 13 mana spent in one turn, with at least 2 mana of each color. That's more effort than most two-card combos, and is restricted only to 5-color decks. We've been playing with this card unbanned in our playgroup for months - it just gets pulled off so RIDICULOUSLY rarely.
You've got two options - play the game hardcore, or play the game casually. If you play the game casually, then CV never realistically happens (or happens so rarely that it's hardly "warping" or "unfun"). If you're playing the game hardcore, and running every possible tutor, mana accelerator/fixer, counterspell backup, leyline of anticipation to drop stuff in the opponent's end step, etc. - in other words, SUPER tuning your deck to win off of CV - well, then you're still handicapping yourself, because you could have put that exact same amount of effort in but picked a more manageable win condition.
Quote from GFireflyEI would be surprised if the reason Coalition Victory was banned was because 'it's an anti-climatic victory'. If that were the case, all combos that result in a win, all board lockdowns, all mass land destruction, and especially, all 'you win the game' cards would be banned. All those are 'anti-climatic' in the same sense, imo.
Quote from GFireflyEThere are many cards that end the game that turn. Granted all have circumstances attached, but so does CV, so I say equal footing.
One that stands out the most in my mind is Exsanguinate.
Should Exsanguinate be banned? Not even close. But it has less answers than CV does.
Quote from bfellowYou need huge amounts of mana to finish off everyone with Exsanguinate. There are just as many answers to it that CV has. Also, CV just wins. Casting Exsanguinate early turns does very little.
Quote from LithlIt's much easier to nuke Protean Hulk repeatedly than it is to cast an entwined Tooth and Nail repeatedly. Sure, Hulk can't get any creatures at cc > 6, but there are plenty of amazing creatures at 6 and below. (For strict by-the-numbers comparison, there are currently 391 creatures at cc > 6, and 5953 creatures at cc <= 6. That's not to say all of them are good, of course ;))
There are certainly tutors other than Gifts Ungiven, but unlike most tutors, Gifts gives you two cards in hand, and two cards in your graveyard. For many decks, cards in the graveyard are just as good as in the hand. Sometimes better.
Whether or not you like the fact that a certain card is banned, it's usually easy to figure out why it was done, or why card X was banned over card Y.