your point about gifts is completely irrelevant. It was banned because it fetches combos... news flash... there are still a couple dozen ways to still do that as consistently and effectively. It's inconsistent and laughable at best. It's obviously not a balance solution, so what is it? A member of the RC got butt hurt? Intuition does the exact same thing, like you said, a card in the graveyard is just as good as a card in your hand for some decks.
With a few exceptions, comboing off with cards in the 'yard requires an extra step. And while there are many other tutors out there, how many tutor for two cards? Tooth and Nail? Armillary Sphere/Cultivate/Gaea's Bounty/Journey of Discovery/Kodama's Reach/Yavimaya Elder (lol, basic lands)? Realms Uncharted/Primeval Titan (lands)? Ranger of Eos (cc 1 creatures)? Did I miss any?
T&N has been discussed to death. Yeah, it's powerful, no argument here.
Ranger of Eos is just like the first mode of T&N... except it's restricted to creatures with CMC 1.
Realms Uncharted is Gifts Ungiven, restricted to lands only. And Primeval Titan is generally agreed to be much better.
The rest of the ones I listed only fetch basic lands, which people don't generally get in a huff about.
Assuming I'm not leaving anything out, the only tutors which fetch two pieces (onto the field or in your hand) that aren't basic lands are T&N, Realms Uncharted, Primeval Titan, and Ranger of Eos. Realms can't do much for combos besides Urborg + Coffers, grabbing the Urza's lands, etc., which an intelligent opponent will dump in your graveyard. Which then requires extra steps to get them on the field (LftL+extra draw/Crucible and then two land drops). Titan can get both straight to the field, which is very nice.
I don't know of any earth-shattering combos involving two 1cc creatures for Eos.
This is an awful reason for banning or not banning things. You should look to the most competitive players to give you a reasonable idea of what should and shouldn't be banned because they will actually break cards. Casual players will always lose to efficient strategies because they have chosen to not interact with them.
That is why we see people calling for the banning of all manner of non-broken things like Consecrated Sphinx, Primeval Titan, Cabal Coffers, Exsanguinate, etc. None of these cards are unbeatable, but they do happen to be efficient. Many people are going to complain about losing to cards like these, but they are of a reasonable power level and are therefore not worth banning.
Edit:
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means improve you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
EDH isn't about competitive, it's about fun casual play. If you're talking about the most competitive things, you are missing the point of the EDH banned list: to avoid things that make a game "Stupid", not "Busted". The banned list isn't about the power level of cards, if it was, Hermit Druid would be gone, along with a metric ton of other cards that are too good. As in, Legacy banned list + or the old 5 color list +.
Emrakul makes a game "Stupid" as you get a time walk + a flying monstrosity. The FSM wasn't particularly difficult to stop competitively since the fast mana would never happen.
Shahrazad made a game "Stupid" since people only played it so they could copy it a bunch of times.
Recurring Nightmare made a game "Stupid" since you could only counter it or instant speed GY removal them in response, which is very rare.
There are plenty of things I find unfun, but by and large in multiplayer I don't believe they simply make a game suck for every other player simultaneously like the banned cards. Sheldon and the RC have repeated, on multiple occasions, to people who have not and simply do not listen, that they don't ban for power level reasons, they ban to try and keep the format fun. And yes, it is subjective, and I fully agree with that assessment. If you want to go all power level banning and make this a fair competitive format, you are missing the point. EDH tournament is an oxymoron. While I wouldn't shed a tear if a lot of patently ridiculous cards were banned, I think the format is better for them being available, and that the issue of hermit druid or Clique in 1v1 isn't relevant because those plays are the result of people who are comically missing the point.
Me too, banning a combo in this format makes no sense. When you ban a combo piece, I can guarantee there are easily a few hundred more to take it's place. Look at staff of domination, it can easily be replaced by an azure mage. The only reason I use that example is because blue is notorious for setting up infinite combos with lots of mana. Same goes for protean hulk, why is he banned when tooth and nail is ok? Tooth and nail is almost superior in every way. Why ban gifts ungiven when we have a dozen other tutors? Parts of the banlist make sense, but other parts resemble a witch hunt towards combos.
Overbeing, ask yourself this: when was the last time control and aggro decks quickly and consistency ended 4 person games on turn 5 at the latest? When was the last time you saw even a refined aggro deck kill an entire table without reaching the combat step, with the use of less than 10 mana and fewer than 4 cards at sorcery speed? When was the last time that a control player knocked out one player a turn, starting on turn 3?
This isn't a witch hunt aimed at combo: this a completely legitimate attack on the power of some of its more egregious and effective offenders that fit into any U/X deck that had a combo based win.
@Overbeing of Myth
I think the comments made about Gifts Ungiven were valid. That card searches up combos like there's no tomorrow. Tell me truthfully, if it were unbanned, what blue deck would not run that card? All mine would run it, that's for sure; it's too easy to manipulate the graveyard in EDH. Tooth and Nail can be abused the same way as Gifts Ungiven. Granted, it costs 9 instead of 4 and is in green instead of blue, which are valid points for why it's still not banned yet; but it still can combo, and it still can be an instant win. That in my view would be just as satisfying a win as Coalition Victory.
@Overbeing of Myth
I think the comments made about Gifts Ungiven were valid. That card searches up combos like there's no tomorrow. Tell me truthfully, if it were unbanned, what blue deck would not run that card? All mine would run it, that's for sure; it's too easy to manipulate the graveyard in EDH. Tooth and Nail can be abused the same way as Gifts Ungiven. Granted, it costs 9 instead of 4 and is in green instead of blue, which are valid points for why it's still not banned yet; but it still can combo, and it still can be an instant win. That in my view would be just as satisfying a win as Coalition Victory.
Why ban a card that combos when you can do this:
It's really that simple. Player A uses gifts, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using gifts to tutor for combos or find another group.
or even better Player A uses Tooth and nail, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using tooth to tutor for combos or find another group.
or even better Player A uses Kokusho, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using kokusho or stuff that combos with kokusho or find another group.
It's not hard.
Just think, we can redirect our energy and labor to something else other than participating in a meaningless discussion to tailor a banlist to promote fun... when fun is the most subjective thing out there.
There are plenty of things I find unfun, but by and large in multiplayer I don't believe they simply make a game suck for every other player simultaneously like the banned cards. Sheldon and the RC have repeated, on multiple occasions, to people who have not and simply do not listen, that they don't ban for power level reasons, they ban to try and keep the format fun. And yes, it is subjective, and I fully agree with that assessment. If you want to go all power level banning and make this a fair competitive format, you are missing the point. EDH tournament is an oxymoron. While I wouldn't shed a tear if a lot of patently ridiculous cards were banned, I think the format is better for them being available, and that the issue of hermit druid or Clique in 1v1 isn't relevant because those plays are the result of people who are comically missing the point.
The reason I argue for cards to be banned because they are broken is because that is something that, with debate, can at least become a clear standard. Banning cards because they are "stupid" or "unfun" is awful because you will never be able to create a clear standard. That is the whole problem with the banned list. It is silly and inconsistent which frustrates many players. It doesn't direct the format as well as it could. It isn't about "casual" vs. "competitive" it is about having clear, reasonable, universally applied standards form the basis of the format. That is what will give a format long term stability.
The reason I argue for cards to be banned because they are broken is because that is something that, with debate, can at least become a clear standard. Banning cards because they are "stupid" or "unfun" is awful because you will never be able to create a clear standard. That is the whole problem with the banned list. It is silly and inconsistent which frustrates many players. It doesn't direct the format as well as it could. It isn't about "casual" vs. "competitive" it is about having clear, reasonable, universally applied standards form the basis of the format. That is what will give a format long term stability.
You are correct, there is no clear standard since "card that makes the game state stupid for every other player" isn't a hard and fast line. The inconsistency frustrates people, yes, but how exactly are you frustrated? Do you not understand what the point of the list is? That it makes concessions to the format being broken as M:tG isn't meant to be played like this? That plenty of cards are absurdly OP in this format, one designed for multiplayer only and non competitive play? That the format is supposed to be your zany casual decks that couldn't be built in 60 card casual play, so competitive argument = non starter?
If you want clear, reasonable, universally applied standards, the RC has repeatedly stated that they are attempting to make a 'fun' format. The inconsistency in power level on banned cards is an admittedly valid critique on this, as it is the banned list is subjective but has proven effective for the format as a whole. If you want to break the format, go ahead - break it, the RC formally stated that the format is broken because of what's available, but balanced by multiplayer. If you want to create a banned list of all the cards you think would make it better, write it down and bring it to us so we can compare pros and cons of the various approaches.
I wish I could play with a few of the banned cards, but saying that a 'consistent list is what gives a format long term stability', when it's already achieved that stability, is baloney. I agree that the list doesn't cater to competitive play, but that's not what it's for. It's a 100 card deck that is supposed to be played in an environment of 2< people! It's about casual vs. competitive, and competitive doesn't get a seat at the table.
It's really that simple. Player A uses gifts, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using gifts to tutor for combos or find another group.
or even better Player A uses Tooth and nail, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using tooth to tutor for combos or find another group.
or even better Player A uses Kokusho, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using kokusho or stuff that combos with kokusho or find another group.
It's not hard.
Just think, we can redirect our energy and labor to something else other than participating in a meaningless discussion to tailor a banlist to promote fun... when fun is the most subjective thing out there.
I think that you have the wrong idea sir. Tooth and nail can be used in some cases to not be a combo piece. I have never in my life seen gifts used to not be a combo piece fetcher. Yes, I do acknowledge that I could be used fairly. You know when that happens? When people are ganging up on you and you need something to save you and you get 4 cards that are functionally the same.
I think the real card that we should be talking about banning is Palinchron. This is pretty much the reason why Tooth and Nail leads to combo wins. I am not saying that we should ban anything. I am on the position of banning as few things as possible. i just feel that if you are going to talk about banning a card then you should talk about banning the card that actually causes the problems.
I feel that the only reason that people are saying that tooth and nail is so broken, and not Palinchron, is because they see tooth and nail as the card that fetches out Palinchron + other piece of the combo. They see it as,"OMG!1 Tooth and Nail got him that combo out. How lame. Now lets ban it!!1" Do people not realize that the combo will still be there and still be just as easy to get out? Now I could be wrong, but from me seeing what a ton of people are saying this is how I viewed it.
I'm a little suprised that they unbanned Lion's Eye Diamond... that is interesting to me, it's more fast mana with a drawback that is only sometimes bad.
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I'm a little suprised that they unbanned Lion's Eye Diamond... that is interesting to me, it's more fast mana with a drawback that is only sometimes bad.
Lion's Eye Diamond is much worse with its errata, and it's much worse in a deck that can't reliably get it first turn, and it's much worse in a deck with 100 cards, of which no not-basic lands can be the same.
Lion's Eye Diamond was banned for a single infinite mana combo with Auriok Salvagers, one that didn't even win the game. Other than that, it's a slightly overpowered way of getting early Arcum or early Damia, but neither of those is format-breaking in any way.
I'm very glad they unbanned the diamond.
As for Erayo, no love lost there. However, I do think it's nowhere near as bad as Braids or Rofellos.
Its a broken Tutoring Engine that nearly impossible to stop, sacing Hulk literally wins you the game on the spot since you can go and tutor up a bunch of combos that creature infinite creature or deal infinite damage.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
It's like Tooth and Nail, except it's a creature and has a lot more advantages as a result.
Also, I found this comment by Genomancer in the discussion thread on the Commander forums interesting.
Quote from "Genomancer" »
1) That people who enjoy that kind of game are definitely not the majority of commander players, and in particular not the majority of NEW players the blacklist is meant to assist. Experienced and intelligent people like Sinis are, quite frankly, not the people who need the list's help.
So the official view about the banlist is that experienced players don't need it. This goes into the whole "your own playgroup" idea.
I was wondering why Rasputin DreamWeaver isn't on the banned list. I've seen alot of degenerate combos with him that really makes him live up to his namesake. (Being almost impossible to kill.) One of them had Nim Deathmantle to just keep bringing him back using the wish counters he comes in with.
Imagine you are going to win on your next turn that will end a game that has gone on for 2-3 hours. The guy before you sees that you are going to win and casts Sway of the Stars and resets the game and everyone goes to 7 life. Or worse, someone has out a Hive Mind and SotS gets cast. Fork it, Twincast it, and Echo Mage at max level double casts it, and the guy says "no shortcuts" shuffle, cut, and draw 7 cards 9 times.
I have my own thoughts about the ban list, but... whatever.
We've had things like that happen before with Time Reversal and other cards of the same ilk but they're not on the banned list. Thats why I'm a bit confused as to why Sway is.
We've had things like that happen before with Time Reversal and other cards of the same ilk but they're not on the banned list. Thats why I'm a bit confused as to why Sway is.
Float a bunch of mana (like 100 mana), cast this, drop praetors and eldrazi, Proceed to win the game against an empty board. It's like time stretch but better.
Protean hulk < tooth and nail in brokeness. It's extremely easy to recur tooth and nail compared to protean hulk, it fetches even more combos. Just look at that new Charmbreaker from INN.... that thing is just another crazy good recursion card. I'm not advocating a ban because I believe the banlist is extremely overweight and needs a diet. It's inconsistencies are so glaringly obvious it's actually a joke really.
Float a bunch of mana (like 100 mana), cast this, drop praetors and eldrazi, Proceed to win the game against an empty board. It's like time stretch but better.
Protean hulk < tooth and nail in brokeness. It's extremely easy to recur tooth and nail compared to protean hulk, it fetches even more combos. Just look at that new Charmbreaker from INN.... that thing is just another crazy good recursion card. I'm not advocating a ban because I believe the banlist is extremely overweight and needs a diet. It's inconsistencies are so glaringly obvious it's actually a joke really.
Are you actually saying a sorcery is easier to recur than a creature? What game are you playing? I'll agree that in many situations, Tooth and Nail is completely overpowered, but in no way is it easier to recur and abuse than Protean Hulk multiple times in a turn.
Also, there are for more ways to cheat creatures out. From Dramatic Entrance to Flash to call of the wild to Sneak Attack, Protean Hulk never gets played for his mana cost, and always wins you the game on death.
I also debate that T&N can get more combo's, There are many 2 creature combo's that the Hulk can't get, but there are many 3+ creature combos that he can get that T&N can't, all of which is irrelevant. All you need is 1 combo.
Float a bunch of mana (like 100 mana), cast this, drop praetors and eldrazi, Proceed to win the game against an empty board. It's like time stretch but better.
Protean hulk < tooth and nail in brokeness. It's extremely easy to recur tooth and nail compared to protean hulk, it fetches even more combos. Just look at that new Charmbreaker from INN.... that thing is just another crazy good recursion card. I'm not advocating a ban because I believe the banlist is extremely overweight and needs a diet. It's inconsistencies are so glaringly obvious it's actually a joke really.
Dude, we get that you dislike certain aspects of the banned list, but spreading misinformation doesn't help your case. Recurring hulk multiple times in one turn for a win costs 7 mana + activating a sac outlet multiple times (Hulk can fetch his own sac outlet if he dies, frequently multiple times). Playing T&N twice costs at a minimum 14 mana, plus having all 4 creatures in question in your hand - in practice it costs 18, which is generally agreed to be "a lot of non infinite mana". Hulk also reanimates himself with his own trigger over and over, frequently tutoring for more than 2 creatures.
I like playing with the card just like I enjoy playing Recurring Nightmare, but it's freaking ridiculous to be on the other side of the board from either.
@ Harbinger: Sway of the Stars was an Upheaval-esque reset that granted the same upheaval advantage - you could float mana while your opponents were derping about with empty boards. It was sort of like Biorhythm, really.
Dude, we get that you dislike certain aspects of the banned list, but spreading misinformation doesn't help your case. Recurring hulk multiple times in one turn for a win costs 7 mana + activating a sac outlet multiple times (Hulk can fetch his own sac outlet if he dies, frequently multiple times). Playing T&N twice costs at a minimum 14 mana, plus having all 4 creatures in question in your hand - in practice it costs 18, which is generally agreed to be "a lot of non infinite mana". Hulk also reanimates himself with his own trigger over and over, frequently tutoring for more than 2 creatures.
I like playing with the card just like I enjoy playing Recurring Nightmare, but it's freaking ridiculous to be on the other side of the board from either.
@ Harbinger: Sway of the Stars was an Upheaval-esque reset that granted the same upheaval advantage - you could float mana while your opponents were derping about with empty boards. It was sort of like Biorhythm, really.
Recurring nightmare should stay banned... As far as I'm concerned you basically said casting and killing protean hulk wins the game... so does casting tooth and nail. Mana cost is pretty irrelevant in a green deck, you have access to so many ramp and mana doubling effects it's not even funny. Tooth and nail can win you the game for 9 mana. Protean hulk does that for 7 mana plus a sac outlet. I know protean hulk can chain his way through multiple creatures and win. The combo is kinda dumb when you think about it... but at the same time.... the mana difference between the two spells is so small....
Now about hermit druid.... I am now convinced discussion of his banning may be warranted... but I have so much fun using him XD. To be fair, he's a creature, easy to kill, and usually has summoning sickness. He really catapults graveyard decks like karrador and mimeoplasm.
Recurring nightmare should stay banned... As far as I'm concerned you basically said casting and killing protean hulk wins the game... so does casting tooth and nail. Mana cost is pretty irrelevant in a green deck, you have access to so many ramp and mana doubling effects it's not even funny. Tooth and nail can win you the game for 9 mana. Protean hulk does that for 7 mana plus a sac outlet. I know protean hulk can chain his way through multiple creatures and win. The combo is kinda dumb when you think about it... but at the same time.... the mana difference between the two spells is so small....
Now about hermit druid.... I am now convinced discussion of his banning may be warranted... but I have so much fun using him XD. To be fair, he's a creature, easy to kill, and usually has summoning sickness. He really catapults graveyard decks like karrador and mimeoplasm.
The problem with Protean Hulk is that you don't even have to actually cast him, what if I go t1 entomb for Hulk, turn 2 Reanimate + Sac Outlet, oops I win. Or even turn 1 Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond/Elvish/Simian Spirit Guide -> Flash, oops I win. There are far more ways to cheat the mana cost on Protean Hulk and creatures are just straight up easier to tutor for and easier to recur so I'd say most of the time Hulk will just be better.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Tooth and Nail doesn't instantly win the game. The only "instant win" combos require you to be playing red and are easily disrupted by anything from removal to fog effects. Otherwise, it just grants you a huge boost of card advantage, mana advantage, or board presence, which is perfectly reasonable for a nine-mana sorcery.
Protean Hulk, on the other hand, is capable of searching out a variety of game-ending infinite combos, many of which are not vulnerable to removal or include self-protection. This is in addition to the fact that Protean Hulk is a creature, and thus much easier to cheat into play or recur repeatedly.
I won't say for sure that Protean Hulk needs to be banned (it's comparable to Hermit Druid in that it's only broken if you're building a combo deck anyways) but it is worlds more powerful and abusable than Tooth and Nail.
Tooth and Nail doesn't instantly win the game. The only "instant win" combos require you to be playing red and are easily disrupted by anything from removal to fog effects. Otherwise, it just grants you a huge boost of card advantage, mana advantage, or board presence, which is perfectly reasonable for a nine-mana sorcery.
Protean Hulk, on the other hand, is capable of searching out a variety of game-ending infinite combos, many of which are not vulnerable to removal or include self-protection. This is in addition to the fact that Protean Hulk is a creature, and thus much easier to cheat into play or recur repeatedly.
I won't say for sure that Protean Hulk needs to be banned (it's comparable to Hermit Druid in that it's only broken if you're building a combo deck anyways) but it is worlds more powerful and abusable than Tooth and Nail.
Even in just UG, you drop Hulk, kill it, and the fetch something like Avenger of Zendikar+Body Double and start going crazy with Clone effects.
Even in just UG, you drop Hulk, kill it, and the fetch something like Avenger of Zendikar+Body Double and start going crazy with Clone effects.
And that's a mild, easily answered example.
How? It's a combination of 6 mana!
I imagine there could be some combo with protean hulk, but I don't know any. Pardon my lack of knowledge for older cards. Also, if you can go infinite in a reanimate deck with him on like.. turn 1 with a ritual (entomb + reanimation), why isn't he played in legacy?
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T&N has been discussed to death. Yeah, it's powerful, no argument here.
Ranger of Eos is just like the first mode of T&N... except it's restricted to creatures with CMC 1.
Realms Uncharted is Gifts Ungiven, restricted to lands only. And Primeval Titan is generally agreed to be much better.
The rest of the ones I listed only fetch basic lands, which people don't generally get in a huff about.
Assuming I'm not leaving anything out, the only tutors which fetch two pieces (onto the field or in your hand) that aren't basic lands are T&N, Realms Uncharted, Primeval Titan, and Ranger of Eos. Realms can't do much for combos besides Urborg + Coffers, grabbing the Urza's lands, etc., which an intelligent opponent will dump in your graveyard. Which then requires extra steps to get them on the field (LftL+extra draw/Crucible and then two land drops). Titan can get both straight to the field, which is very nice.
I don't know of any earth-shattering combos involving two 1cc creatures for Eos.
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EDH isn't about competitive, it's about fun casual play. If you're talking about the most competitive things, you are missing the point of the EDH banned list: to avoid things that make a game "Stupid", not "Busted". The banned list isn't about the power level of cards, if it was, Hermit Druid would be gone, along with a metric ton of other cards that are too good. As in, Legacy banned list + or the old 5 color list +.
Emrakul makes a game "Stupid" as you get a time walk + a flying monstrosity. The FSM wasn't particularly difficult to stop competitively since the fast mana would never happen.
Shahrazad made a game "Stupid" since people only played it so they could copy it a bunch of times.
Recurring Nightmare made a game "Stupid" since you could only counter it or instant speed GY removal them in response, which is very rare.
There are plenty of things I find unfun, but by and large in multiplayer I don't believe they simply make a game suck for every other player simultaneously like the banned cards. Sheldon and the RC have repeated, on multiple occasions, to people who have not and simply do not listen, that they don't ban for power level reasons, they ban to try and keep the format fun. And yes, it is subjective, and I fully agree with that assessment. If you want to go all power level banning and make this a fair competitive format, you are missing the point. EDH tournament is an oxymoron. While I wouldn't shed a tear if a lot of patently ridiculous cards were banned, I think the format is better for them being available, and that the issue of hermit druid or Clique in 1v1 isn't relevant because those plays are the result of people who are comically missing the point.
Overbeing, ask yourself this: when was the last time control and aggro decks quickly and consistency ended 4 person games on turn 5 at the latest? When was the last time you saw even a refined aggro deck kill an entire table without reaching the combat step, with the use of less than 10 mana and fewer than 4 cards at sorcery speed? When was the last time that a control player knocked out one player a turn, starting on turn 3?
This isn't a witch hunt aimed at combo: this a completely legitimate attack on the power of some of its more egregious and effective offenders that fit into any U/X deck that had a combo based win.
Comandeer, while not winning the game like with Exsanguinate, does still stop Coalition Victory aswell. Great find!
@Overbeing of Myth
I think the comments made about Gifts Ungiven were valid. That card searches up combos like there's no tomorrow. Tell me truthfully, if it were unbanned, what blue deck would not run that card? All mine would run it, that's for sure; it's too easy to manipulate the graveyard in EDH.
Tooth and Nail can be abused the same way as Gifts Ungiven. Granted, it costs 9 instead of 4 and is in green instead of blue, which are valid points for why it's still not banned yet; but it still can combo, and it still can be an instant win. That in my view would be just as satisfying a win as Coalition Victory.
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Why ban a card that combos when you can do this:
It's really that simple. Player A uses gifts, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using gifts to tutor for combos or find another group.
or even better Player A uses Tooth and nail, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using tooth to tutor for combos or find another group.
or even better Player A uses Kokusho, combos and wins. Play group tells player A to stop using kokusho or stuff that combos with kokusho or find another group.
It's not hard.
Just think, we can redirect our energy and labor to something else other than participating in a meaningless discussion to tailor a banlist to promote fun... when fun is the most subjective thing out there.
The reason I argue for cards to be banned because they are broken is because that is something that, with debate, can at least become a clear standard. Banning cards because they are "stupid" or "unfun" is awful because you will never be able to create a clear standard. That is the whole problem with the banned list. It is silly and inconsistent which frustrates many players. It doesn't direct the format as well as it could. It isn't about "casual" vs. "competitive" it is about having clear, reasonable, universally applied standards form the basis of the format. That is what will give a format long term stability.
You are correct, there is no clear standard since "card that makes the game state stupid for every other player" isn't a hard and fast line. The inconsistency frustrates people, yes, but how exactly are you frustrated? Do you not understand what the point of the list is? That it makes concessions to the format being broken as M:tG isn't meant to be played like this? That plenty of cards are absurdly OP in this format, one designed for multiplayer only and non competitive play? That the format is supposed to be your zany casual decks that couldn't be built in 60 card casual play, so competitive argument = non starter?
If you want clear, reasonable, universally applied standards, the RC has repeatedly stated that they are attempting to make a 'fun' format. The inconsistency in power level on banned cards is an admittedly valid critique on this, as it is the banned list is subjective but has proven effective for the format as a whole. If you want to break the format, go ahead - break it, the RC formally stated that the format is broken because of what's available, but balanced by multiplayer. If you want to create a banned list of all the cards you think would make it better, write it down and bring it to us so we can compare pros and cons of the various approaches.
I wish I could play with a few of the banned cards, but saying that a 'consistent list is what gives a format long term stability', when it's already achieved that stability, is baloney. I agree that the list doesn't cater to competitive play, but that's not what it's for. It's a 100 card deck that is supposed to be played in an environment of 2< people! It's about casual vs. competitive, and competitive doesn't get a seat at the table.
I think that you have the wrong idea sir. Tooth and nail can be used in some cases to not be a combo piece. I have never in my life seen gifts used to not be a combo piece fetcher. Yes, I do acknowledge that I could be used fairly. You know when that happens? When people are ganging up on you and you need something to save you and you get 4 cards that are functionally the same.
I think the real card that we should be talking about banning is Palinchron. This is pretty much the reason why Tooth and Nail leads to combo wins. I am not saying that we should ban anything. I am on the position of banning as few things as possible. i just feel that if you are going to talk about banning a card then you should talk about banning the card that actually causes the problems.
I feel that the only reason that people are saying that tooth and nail is so broken, and not Palinchron, is because they see tooth and nail as the card that fetches out Palinchron + other piece of the combo. They see it as,"OMG!1 Tooth and Nail got him that combo out. How lame. Now lets ban it!!1" Do people not realize that the combo will still be there and still be just as easy to get out? Now I could be wrong, but from me seeing what a ton of people are saying this is how I viewed it.
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Lion's Eye Diamond was banned for a single infinite mana combo with Auriok Salvagers, one that didn't even win the game. Other than that, it's a slightly overpowered way of getting early Arcum or early Damia, but neither of those is format-breaking in any way.
I'm very glad they unbanned the diamond.
As for Erayo, no love lost there. However, I do think it's nowhere near as bad as Braids or Rofellos.
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Its a broken Tutoring Engine that nearly impossible to stop, sacing Hulk literally wins you the game on the spot since you can go and tutor up a bunch of combos that creature infinite creature or deal infinite damage.
Insta-kill combos.
It's like Tooth and Nail, except it's a creature and has a lot more advantages as a result.
Also, I found this comment by Genomancer in the discussion thread on the Commander forums interesting.
So the official view about the banlist is that experienced players don't need it. This goes into the whole "your own playgroup" idea.
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I'm a little confused as to why Sway of the Stars is banned.
Imagine you are going to win on your next turn that will end a game that has gone on for 2-3 hours. The guy before you sees that you are going to win and casts Sway of the Stars and resets the game and everyone goes to 7 life. Or worse, someone has out a Hive Mind and SotS gets cast. Fork it, Twincast it, and Echo Mage at max level double casts it, and the guy says "no shortcuts" shuffle, cut, and draw 7 cards 9 times.
I have my own thoughts about the ban list, but... whatever.
Float a bunch of mana (like 100 mana), cast this, drop praetors and eldrazi, Proceed to win the game against an empty board. It's like time stretch but better.
Protean hulk < tooth and nail in brokeness. It's extremely easy to recur tooth and nail compared to protean hulk, it fetches even more combos. Just look at that new Charmbreaker from INN.... that thing is just another crazy good recursion card. I'm not advocating a ban because I believe the banlist is extremely overweight and needs a diet. It's inconsistencies are so glaringly obvious it's actually a joke really.
Are you actually saying a sorcery is easier to recur than a creature? What game are you playing? I'll agree that in many situations, Tooth and Nail is completely overpowered, but in no way is it easier to recur and abuse than Protean Hulk multiple times in a turn.
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I also debate that T&N can get more combo's, There are many 2 creature combo's that the Hulk can't get, but there are many 3+ creature combos that he can get that T&N can't, all of which is irrelevant. All you need is 1 combo.
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Dude, we get that you dislike certain aspects of the banned list, but spreading misinformation doesn't help your case. Recurring hulk multiple times in one turn for a win costs 7 mana + activating a sac outlet multiple times (Hulk can fetch his own sac outlet if he dies, frequently multiple times). Playing T&N twice costs at a minimum 14 mana, plus having all 4 creatures in question in your hand - in practice it costs 18, which is generally agreed to be "a lot of non infinite mana". Hulk also reanimates himself with his own trigger over and over, frequently tutoring for more than 2 creatures.
I like playing with the card just like I enjoy playing Recurring Nightmare, but it's freaking ridiculous to be on the other side of the board from either.
@ Harbinger: Sway of the Stars was an Upheaval-esque reset that granted the same upheaval advantage - you could float mana while your opponents were derping about with empty boards. It was sort of like Biorhythm, really.
Recurring nightmare should stay banned... As far as I'm concerned you basically said casting and killing protean hulk wins the game... so does casting tooth and nail. Mana cost is pretty irrelevant in a green deck, you have access to so many ramp and mana doubling effects it's not even funny. Tooth and nail can win you the game for 9 mana. Protean hulk does that for 7 mana plus a sac outlet. I know protean hulk can chain his way through multiple creatures and win. The combo is kinda dumb when you think about it... but at the same time.... the mana difference between the two spells is so small....
Now about hermit druid.... I am now convinced discussion of his banning may be warranted... but I have so much fun using him XD. To be fair, he's a creature, easy to kill, and usually has summoning sickness. He really catapults graveyard decks like karrador and mimeoplasm.
The problem with Protean Hulk is that you don't even have to actually cast him, what if I go t1 entomb for Hulk, turn 2 Reanimate + Sac Outlet, oops I win. Or even turn 1 Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond/Elvish/Simian Spirit Guide -> Flash, oops I win. There are far more ways to cheat the mana cost on Protean Hulk and creatures are just straight up easier to tutor for and easier to recur so I'd say most of the time Hulk will just be better.
Tooth and Nail doesn't instantly win the game. The only "instant win" combos require you to be playing red and are easily disrupted by anything from removal to fog effects. Otherwise, it just grants you a huge boost of card advantage, mana advantage, or board presence, which is perfectly reasonable for a nine-mana sorcery.
Protean Hulk, on the other hand, is capable of searching out a variety of game-ending infinite combos, many of which are not vulnerable to removal or include self-protection. This is in addition to the fact that Protean Hulk is a creature, and thus much easier to cheat into play or recur repeatedly.
I won't say for sure that Protean Hulk needs to be banned (it's comparable to Hermit Druid in that it's only broken if you're building a combo deck anyways) but it is worlds more powerful and abusable than Tooth and Nail.
Even in just UG, you drop Hulk, kill it, and the fetch something like Avenger of Zendikar+Body Double and start going crazy with Clone effects.
And that's a mild, easily answered example.
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How? It's a combination of 6 mana!
I imagine there could be some combo with protean hulk, but I don't know any. Pardon my lack of knowledge for older cards. Also, if you can go infinite in a reanimate deck with him on like.. turn 1 with a ritual (entomb + reanimation), why isn't he played in legacy?