I don't really think Winter Orb is a good card to play in the format, but they're not going to ban it. Whether you personally like the card or not, why, exactly, is it likely to overcentralize games anymore or be a whole lot more of a nuisance than a Master of Cruelties off of Kalia, a hasted Blightsteel/Ulamog/Kozilek, a 10+ power dude with infect, Sorin, Magister Sphinx, Insurrection, Tooth and Nail, Time Stretch, or any other card frequently accused of offing one or more players with ease? It's a strong dude, but it's a 15 mana strong dude at the end of the day. I've even seen EOT Felidar Soverign flashed in and end a game once.
I don't really think Winter Orb is a good card to play in the format, but they're not going to ban it. Whether you personally like the card or not, why, exactly, is it likely to overcentralize games anymore or be a whole lot more of a nuisance than a Master of Cruelties off of Kalia, a hasted Blightsteel/Ulamog/Kozilek, a 10+ power dude with infect, Sorin, Magister Sphinx, Insurrection, Tooth and Nail, Time Stretch, or any other card frequently accused of offing one or more players with ease? It's a strong dude, but it's a 15 mana strong dude at the end of the day. I've even seen EOT Felidar Soverign flashed in and end a game once.
See, you're just saying that it is no worse than any of the other legal cards that you mentioned, but what good would come of it being legal?
The difference between Emrakul and the Winter Orb that you mention is that Emrakul looks like a big, fun creature for Timmy to play with. Winter Orb is obviously not that type of card. When Timmy plays Emrakul, it seems really fun at first, until he slowly buries the table one person at a time with an extremely difficult to remove Annihilator 6, 15/15, flyer. It easily turns the game on its head by withering your opponents into nothing, and all they can do is watch.
This problem is only compounded by the fact that Emmy is available to all EDH decks. this means that decks will likely need to start running special removal cards to deal with it, or else just scoop when it is played. This hits the "warps the format strategically" criteria of the banned list, and I would argue that almost any game where Emmy lands is hit with the other criteria of "creates undesirable games/game situations" since it seems like a big, fun card to play until it slowly starts murdering your opponents lands and burying them in card advantage. (Similar to a poorly timed Armageddon that can drag the game out; sometimes it's better to just scoop and shuffle.)
An instant Journey to Nowhere or instant colorless Vindicate aren't exactly niche cards. They answer a lot of stuff. It's also not a hard creature to kill. It only can't be targeted by colored spells or damaged by them. Any sweeper that could realistically kill it can and any edict works fine as well. It can even be countered by exiling the spell. Most things that can stop it also deal with a wide swath of other things as well. Pro colored spells is probably no harder to stop than indestructible with the answers people tend to run.
An instant Journey to Nowhere or instant colorless Vindicate aren't exactly niche cards. They answer a lot of stuff. It's also not a hard creature to kill. It only can't be targeted by colored spells or damaged by them. Any sweeper that could realistically kill it can and any edict works fine as well. It can even be countered by exiling the spell. Most things that can stop it also deal with a wide swath of other things as well. Pro colored spells is probably no harder to stop than indestructible with the answers people tend to run.
Ok, so let's just say you're right for the sake of argument. If Emmy is that easily removed and wouldn't cause people to change their decks simply to deal with it, (which I still disagree with, but you've made your point and stance here), then let's look at the another aspect of this card. This card is likely to see play in any deck that can get it out early correct? Do you not think that a consistent turn 5-7 Emmy (cast trigger or not) would warp the format? If unanswered, whomever is unlucky enough to get hit with the attack trigger alone is going to be set back quite a lot, if not almost put of the game immediately. Do you not agree here, also?
Assuming that it were something that happened all the time, it could become kind of annoying, but why emrakul now that we have so many other ways to do the same thing? Why are people likely to try and cheat in an early Emrakul if they aren't already offing people with the other options? It's nothing for Kaalia to tutor up Master. There's plenty of targets you could also wreck face with Sneak Attack/Through the Breach/Cauldron Dance. Big pump and infect on any dude isn't hard. Savage Beating/Overrun effect and a couple decent sized dudes does too. You can build a whole deck of stuff that can off one player if you want, often with stuff that was printed after the ban. Six years later, we have a bunch of ways to do the same thing people did with Emrakul back in the day when Searing Wind was seen in more casual lists because we didn't have a billion 8+ mana backbreaking things to do. Emrakul doesn't often do it as well for as cheap as a lot of other cards now. I think Commander has moved on just like with Kokopuffs.
I find that simply Protection from colored spells and Annihilator 6 are sufficient reasons as to why it should be banned unless your friends are ok with it. Yeah it's mana costly but being a creature means it's not hard to cheat into play and that cost is not hard to achieve in the common battlecruiser EDH groups anyway.
Assuming that it were something that happened all the time, it could become kind of annoying, but why emrakul now that we have so many other ways to do the same thing? Why are people likely to try and cheat in an early Emrakul if they aren't already offing people with the other options? It's nothing for Kaalia to tutor up Master. There's plenty of targets you could also wreck face with Sneak Attack/Through the Breach/Cauldron Dance. Big pump and infect on any dude isn't hard. Savage Beating/Overrun effect and a couple decent sized dudes does too. You can build a whole deck of stuff that can off one player if you want, often with stuff that was printed after the ban. Six years later, we have a bunch of ways to do the same thing people did with Emrakul back in the day when Searing Wind was seen in more casual lists because we didn't have a billion 8+ mana backbreaking things to do. Emrakul doesn't often do it as well for as cheap as a lot of other cards now. I think Commander has moved on just like with Kokopuffs.
What card(s) do you think currently substitute for Emrakul as you've pointed out? Also, the Kaalia + Master of Cruelties is a poor example for this as it is truly just another 2-card combo that is 100% intentional. Ramping into big creatures or cheating big creatures into play are common and fair strategies, and I believe that adding Emrakul to these lists would warp the format while also increasing undesirable game states/game situations due to her list of abilities and size.
Well, it's going to take more than one card to do it, but Emrakul costs a stupidly high mana cost of 15 to do what you can do for 4-5 mana or so and there's plenty of interchangeable pieces in many cases. Sure, there are people that despise the card (and eldrazi in general) but that's not a reason it should be banned. I'm also not sure being a 15/15 has anything to do with it and annihilator 6 is just even more super overkill if you're cheating it in early and isn't significantly different than annihilator 4. I mean turn 1 mountain, Sol Ring and turn 2 mountain Through the Breach is the same with Ulamog, Kozilek Emrakul, Blightsteel, or Master of Cruelties. Of course, it could be turn 3 with any ramp. Annihilator 6 only matters if you have significantly more than 6 permanents. Deliberate combo isn't a reason to ban, not a reason to keep things banned. Using Emrakul as a super early blowout isn't anymore spirit of the format than any of the other things, but it isn't a reason to ban it. I'm not really a fan of annihilator either, but I see no compelling reason it's likely to be rebanned if it gets off the list.
but Emrakul costs a stupidly high mana cost of 15 to do what you can do for 4-5 mana
With what cards can you force your opponent to sacrifice 6 permanents, take an extra turn, and get a 15/15 with flying protection from every color and can't be countered for 4-5 mana?
The mana cost is stupid, as it should be more like GGGUUUBBBWWWRRR or maybe 5GGRRUUWWBB but mostly the mana cost is stupid because it is almost always ignored.
Also Ulamog, Kozilek, Blightsteel, and Master of crulties, are all open to creature removal in every color that can counter annihilator.
Emrakul should be banned not because I don't like him, but because he is the most stupidly overpowered creature in the game (by a wide margin) and was extremely crappy design to begin with. May as well have made him "Exodia, the Forbidden One"
Emrakul can be removed now, too, and if you're cheating it in, the spell that's doing it can often be countered as well. Now, it is strong, but for that much, it damn well better be strong.
I really think this boils down to having played with it or not. I think Prophet will be discussed like this 5 years from now, and the people who were there will be like 'oh please no'.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I've never really seen Prophet, but I've played with Emrakul and I think people are seriously overreacting to it.
No, I really don't think they are. It cannot survive a turn cycle. So a one-turn clock. If it does, you are going from a 4-player game to 3, decreasing the options to remove it even further. Another turn cycle? Then it's 1v1, and shouldn't even be considered continuing the game.
The best answers are symmetrical, and the "niche" answers are few and far between, and incredibly overcosted (Scour from Existence is not a valid argument).
While it's not considered ban criteria, the fact that it will always be ramped into, or cheated out well before a 15 cmc card should be is reason enough that it stay banned.
Well, that also applies to Autochthon Wurm. Being ramped into or cheated in is just the facts of being a high cost card. The fact that it has slightly limited answers isn't exactly new either. We have plenty of indestructible/hexproof/shroud/protection dudes. It has one of the more limited protection abilities and no protection at all from sweepers other than damage ones it would avoid anyway due to 15 toughness. It probably has more answers than Ulamog.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
No, I've been playing Commander since Shards of Alara. We had a lot fewer big, scary things back then. Sure it's scary, but it's just another scary thing in a huge field of high cost, scary things now. Of course, I really doubt Biorythm would have been banned had it been printed now either.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
It might if we were speaking hypothetically, but we no longer are. It was legal, ruined games (subjective, but thats part of the ban announcement so relevant), and has MORE ramp and search cards for her than back then.
There also is no more Banned as Commander, so its deal with this in the Command Zone, or its 100% banned.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
So, the fact that it costs double the mana cost of lots of them means nothing?
You keep saying there are other big threats. Nothing in the game does remotely close to what Emrakul does. Based on its abilities, it has 41 mana worth of abilities. It will always be the biggest threat on every table regardless of what anyone else is running.
15 mana is remarkably easy, and dealing with Emrakul is very difficult, and your answers you have suggested are almost entirely niche cases.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It might if we were speaking hypothetically, but we no longer are. It was legal, ruined games (subjective, but thats part of the ban announcement so relevant), and has MORE ramp and search cards for her than back then.
There also is no more Banned as Commander, so its deal with this in the Command Zone, or its 100% banned.
Emrakul was the one everyone wanted a banned in the 99 list just for. It's weaker as a commander since you pretty much always have to pay 15 or more for it. You also are limited to just colorless cards. For the most part, good ramp was printed back then. How much good ramp was first printed recently? Now, there are some search cards but they are pretty niche.
Any boardclear that isn't damage based (the same restriction that applies to any creature with built in hexproof, none of which are banned, like narset, geist, and uril)
Any targeted removal that is colorless (some examples of good cards that do this are duplicant, the ulamogs)
Any targeted removal that isn't a spell (some examples of good cards that do this are angel of despair, banisher priest and similar effects can do this temporarily, and other ones I'm likely missing)
Any non-targeted removal (edicts, liliana)
A more niche approach in using time stop.
It also isn't as scary in the command zone as other commanders. I'd rather have Kozilek as the commander for a ramp into eldrazi commanders deck than Emrakul, since Kozilek is cheaper (it's really frustrating burning out at 11-13 mana) and refuels my hand so I can ramp/draw into more eldrazi inside my deck.
Iona also locks people out of the game just as much, if not more. Mindslaver is also cheaper and can lock one person out of playing the game, potentially repeatedly. And there are dozens of other ways to lock everyone else out of the game. Other one card ways of locking people out of the game are more restrictive than Emrakul, but they also are much cheaper or work on multiple opponents at the same time.
I would rather get wrecked by Emrakul in one or two turns, than have a slow agonizing 15 turn drawn out death by Derevi. Emrakul blows up permanents, just as vorinclex shuts down lands, iona invalidates mono coloured decks, jin-gitaxias decimates hands, meren invalidates most removal. With 15 mana, someone can cast a timewalk effect and a huge creature and still get a swing in. In the groups I've played with, when we see someone ramping aggressively, lands get blown up and mana rocks get hit, because logically, if we fear the big creature, we stall it out until we catch up.
I think Emrakul's ban is symptomatic of the EDH's fear of destroying lands. This allows ramp and battlecruiser to run with near impunity. We expect combo to get punished with counters, we expect aggro to get punished with board wipes, why does ramp get a free pass from land destruction. I'm not saying cast armageddon on turn four, but don't be afraid to use khamal and pestilence to snipe a few lands every now and then.
I'll extend an olive branch and admit that he may become over centralizing, but if people are bribery'ing it, or tooth and nail'ing, I'd refer to the rules committee's stance that "we won't ban it, you guys just have to play responsibly with it."
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I think Emrakul's ban is symptomatic of the EDH's fear of destroying lands. This allows ramp and battlecruiser to run with near impunity.
That seems to lack any real credibility when Armageddon isnt banned.
I'll extend an olive branch and admit that he may become over centralizing, but if people are bribery'ing it, or tooth and nail'ing, I'd refer to the rules committee's stance that "we won't ban it, you guys just have to play responsibly with it."
Thats not actually how the ban list works. See : PoK
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I think Emrakul's ban is symptomatic of the EDH's fear of destroying lands. This allows ramp and battlecruiser to run with near impunity.
That seems to lack any real credibility when Armageddon isnt banned.
I don't think it lacks credibility when forums are filled with posts decrying land destruction, or house banning it. I've been to multiple groups and spoken to people who run tournaments in my city before attending Commander nights, and I receive the same pre-game warning time and time again; "just no infinite combos and no land destruction". The meta is always the same, and filled with Gx or GB decks dunking on the table, windmill slamming Wurmcoil engines and Eldrazi because people get ostracized if they dare cast a jokulhaups or 'geddon to punish the over extenders.
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See, you're just saying that it is no worse than any of the other legal cards that you mentioned, but what good would come of it being legal?
The difference between Emrakul and the Winter Orb that you mention is that Emrakul looks like a big, fun creature for Timmy to play with. Winter Orb is obviously not that type of card. When Timmy plays Emrakul, it seems really fun at first, until he slowly buries the table one person at a time with an extremely difficult to remove Annihilator 6, 15/15, flyer. It easily turns the game on its head by withering your opponents into nothing, and all they can do is watch.
This problem is only compounded by the fact that Emmy is available to all EDH decks. this means that decks will likely need to start running special removal cards to deal with it, or else just scoop when it is played. This hits the "warps the format strategically" criteria of the banned list, and I would argue that almost any game where Emmy lands is hit with the other criteria of "creates undesirable games/game situations" since it seems like a big, fun card to play until it slowly starts murdering your opponents lands and burying them in card advantage. (Similar to a poorly timed Armageddon that can drag the game out; sometimes it's better to just scoop and shuffle.)
Ok, so let's just say you're right for the sake of argument. If Emmy is that easily removed and wouldn't cause people to change their decks simply to deal with it, (which I still disagree with, but you've made your point and stance here), then let's look at the another aspect of this card. This card is likely to see play in any deck that can get it out early correct? Do you not think that a consistent turn 5-7 Emmy (cast trigger or not) would warp the format? If unanswered, whomever is unlucky enough to get hit with the attack trigger alone is going to be set back quite a lot, if not almost put of the game immediately. Do you not agree here, also?
What card(s) do you think currently substitute for Emrakul as you've pointed out? Also, the Kaalia + Master of Cruelties is a poor example for this as it is truly just another 2-card combo that is 100% intentional. Ramping into big creatures or cheating big creatures into play are common and fair strategies, and I believe that adding Emrakul to these lists would warp the format while also increasing undesirable game states/game situations due to her list of abilities and size.
With what cards can you force your opponent to sacrifice 6 permanents, take an extra turn, and get a 15/15 with flying protection from every color and can't be countered for 4-5 mana?
The mana cost is stupid, as it should be more like GGGUUUBBBWWWRRR or maybe 5GGRRUUWWBB but mostly the mana cost is stupid because it is almost always ignored.
Also Ulamog, Kozilek, Blightsteel, and Master of crulties, are all open to creature removal in every color that can counter annihilator.
Emrakul should be banned not because I don't like him, but because he is the most stupidly overpowered creature in the game (by a wide margin) and was extremely crappy design to begin with. May as well have made him "Exodia, the Forbidden One"
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No, I really don't think they are. It cannot survive a turn cycle. So a one-turn clock. If it does, you are going from a 4-player game to 3, decreasing the options to remove it even further. Another turn cycle? Then it's 1v1, and shouldn't even be considered continuing the game.
The best answers are symmetrical, and the "niche" answers are few and far between, and incredibly overcosted (Scour from Existence is not a valid argument).
While it's not considered ban criteria, the fact that it will always be ramped into, or cheated out well before a 15 cmc card should be is reason enough that it stay banned.
Colorless ramp and creature searching have only gotten better, what would cause 'ramp to Emmy, GG' games to be less of an issue now?
There also is no more Banned as Commander, so its deal with this in the Command Zone, or its 100% banned.
You keep saying there are other big threats. Nothing in the game does remotely close to what Emrakul does. Based on its abilities, it has 41 mana worth of abilities. It will always be the biggest threat on every table regardless of what anyone else is running.
15 mana is remarkably easy, and dealing with Emrakul is very difficult, and your answers you have suggested are almost entirely niche cases.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
It also isn't as scary in the command zone as other commanders. I'd rather have Kozilek as the commander for a ramp into eldrazi commanders deck than Emrakul, since Kozilek is cheaper (it's really frustrating burning out at 11-13 mana) and refuels my hand so I can ramp/draw into more eldrazi inside my deck.
Iona also locks people out of the game just as much, if not more. Mindslaver is also cheaper and can lock one person out of playing the game, potentially repeatedly. And there are dozens of other ways to lock everyone else out of the game. Other one card ways of locking people out of the game are more restrictive than Emrakul, but they also are much cheaper or work on multiple opponents at the same time.
I think Emrakul's ban is symptomatic of the EDH's fear of destroying lands. This allows ramp and battlecruiser to run with near impunity. We expect combo to get punished with counters, we expect aggro to get punished with board wipes, why does ramp get a free pass from land destruction. I'm not saying cast armageddon on turn four, but don't be afraid to use khamal and pestilence to snipe a few lands every now and then.
I'll extend an olive branch and admit that he may become over centralizing, but if people are bribery'ing it, or tooth and nail'ing, I'd refer to the rules committee's stance that "we won't ban it, you guys just have to play responsibly with it."
Thats not actually how the ban list works. See : PoK
I don't think it lacks credibility when forums are filled with posts decrying land destruction, or house banning it. I've been to multiple groups and spoken to people who run tournaments in my city before attending Commander nights, and I receive the same pre-game warning time and time again; "just no infinite combos and no land destruction". The meta is always the same, and filled with Gx or GB decks dunking on the table, windmill slamming Wurmcoil engines and Eldrazi because people get ostracized if they dare cast a jokulhaups or 'geddon to punish the over extenders.