It is insane that gifts is on the ban list next to stuff like fastbond and while iona is still not on the list. If we ignore the combo potential of cards for the ban list, then where is this card too strong for commander? It would make such a fun political card in a ton of commander groups. Need land? Go grab 4. Need an answer? Go get 2 and two ways to recur it. Plus, if one player is obviously way ahead, you can use it politicaly with the rest of your group. If you are the one ahead, your entire table gets to play politics while picking your piles. Please mr sheldon, would you give us our gifts back
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Darn, I didn't even realize this was banned Always wanted to play with it in EDH, but didn't own the physical cards.
I know the RC is pretty much all-powerful, but is there any way of contesting this, or making them bring up the issue again, or something? Otherwise, it seems useless to all sit around and mostly agree about it over and over again.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
You can make a good argument here or on their page, or get your group to allow it. We may agree, but we are just a few people on the internet, we aint special
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
i feel like the fact that the reason they banned it no longer being a part of how they handle the ban list is reason enough for them to revisit the card
"The overwhelming reason Fastbond gets played is to fuel a degenerate combo." I mean I think GU should be unbanned under the current philosophy, but certainly not Fastbond. So why things WERE banned, and why they are now can be different.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Well everyone, here's to hoping we get good news tomorrow
"No changes at this time." I don't expect anything less. I'd also be surprised if Gifts ever came off the list.
So sad. Resolving "pile" effects is one of my groups favorite things to do, and gifts is the mother of all "pile" effects. The new banlist philosophy makes this card appear like a joke on the list, and the banlist poll shows a trend of agreement
Does anyone else feel new hope for this card to be re-reviewed and eventually unbanned with Protean Hulk now being unbanned? I still feel that this is the next closes card to being unbanned, probably next to Recurring Nightmare.
I know that no "new evidence" can be brought up to the RC about this card and its interactions, but it still seems like maybe the RC is ready to let some of these old bans loose.
While most people will get a 2 card win con and 2 cards to recur them if need be, it should still be allowed. Witj gift banned so should t&n. At least with gifts you get 3 chances to counter. With t&n you have a chance tou counter. But if not they just got their two creature win
I think one thing that hasn't been mention is you can even play Diabolic Revelation better. You can cut out the recursion, prevent graveyard hate wrecking your combo unless the combo uses the yard, and even tutor for 2-3 free counterspells or other protection like Grand Abolisher if you really want to be guaranteed of forcing your combo through. We can also simply play Increasing Ambition or even Conflux in 5 color or for 6 mana with Plea for Guidance if your combo is all enchantments or Jarad's Orders or Tooth and Nail for creatures. Afterall, Gifts really costs another 4 or 5 mana on top of the cost of the spell for recusion unless you're bringing back creatures with Raise Deads or want the cards in the yard. I'm sure double artifact tutor is coming sometime too. No one's talking about banning the other double tutors so why does the super convoluted one need to be? For the sin of being a blue card? The only double tutors back when it was banned were Tooth and Conflux.
To be fair, Gifts is the only one which operates at instant speed, which makes the "it costs as much as similar tutors" argument less similar. Spending 4 mana at EOT and then untapping to combo out is a LOT different than spending that same amount all in a single turn.
Yeah, but the cards those tutors are getting are also secret since they can get anything. Outside of heavy combo group play, they're probably equally threatening.
To be fair, Gifts is the only one which operates at instant speed, which makes the "it costs as much as similar tutors" argument less similar. Spending 4 mana at EOT and then untapping to combo out is a LOT different than spending that same amount all in a single turn.
Cryogen, I am sure you have hashed this out at some point in the general discussion thread, but I just realized I am not sure of your opinion on the card.
1. Do you believe Gifts should be on or off the ban list, and why?
2. What are your thoughts on the reasons given by the RC for the initial ban, in light of their updated ban list philosophy?
3. If you had to assign a percentage, how much weight should be given to intentional combo uses of the card, vs. their stated critera? Maybe a silly question, but if you'll humor me.
Cryogen, I am sure you have hashed this out at some point in the general discussion thread, but I just realized I am not sure of your opinion on the card.
1. Do you believe Gifts should be on or off the ban list, and why? Unbanned. At its worst, Gifts is a combo card that requires specific sets of cards in which to become a game ending combo. Used innocuously it has interesting interactions with generals like Mimeoplasm and Breya which make it good but not broken. Based on the appearance of the current RC approach towards combo cards, Gifts is a card which I would expect to be on the edge of being unbanned.
2. What are your thoughts on the reasons given by the RC for the initial ban, in light of their updated ban list philosophy? As I said above, the "we ban combo cards" mentality is slowly going out the door. The fact that Gifts is a cheap instant cannot be understated enough because that is incredibly strong, but I think that strength is tempered by the necessity to build in a certain way to abuse the card. Otherwise, it is more of a 'good but not broken' card.
3. If you had to assign a percentage, how much weight should be given to intentional combo uses of the card, vs. their stated critera? Maybe a silly question, but if you'll humor me. I'm not sure if I can speculate on this, because I have never seen Gifts in action, beyond my own personal testing when I jammed it into a Mimeoplasm deck (swapped out Fact or Fiction). Using my assumed weighted scale that the RC does, if I were going to vote on the card, it would be that I somewhat agree to unban it. I am an advocate for a smaller list, and I don't think that it will hurt the format by unbanning the card, but at the same time the format won't necessarily improve with its inclusion.
Since there seem to be a fair number of people who think Gifts could get safely unbanned (or at least deserves a fresh look at), is there anyone here who can slot it in random decks when it would be a useful tutor (but not actually adding combos to fuel Gifts unless said combos were already in the deck) and report back with the results? At this point I think we just need some solid testing in order to give anything new to the RC.
I've had Gifts in decks for quite a long time (over a year) but you know it won't be broken in my decks. Gifts to get a couple counterspells or Gifts for 4 big trample dudes isn't going to break anything. I also really love Vengeful Pharaoh who people often forget about. It might actually be my most complained about card ever ( the pharaoh, not gifts) Of course, when it comes back, I've actually cast it a few times. It's not spectacular but it's a respectable beater and the deathtouch is occasionally relevant.
I guess it's not played more because it isn't really amazing at any one thing. It is a rattlesnake and a beater in one though. It's actually one of my big buried alive targets especially early game. It just tends to sit there for a while but it usually sticks around somewhere the whole game unless it ends up being collateral damage since it isn't strong enough to eat a swords or launch grave hate at. It actually plays a lot like Palinchron when I use it since everyone knows I can't go infinite with it. I just use it as a blocker and to untap multi mana lands. Of course, I have occasionally beaten on people with it. Afterall, it does fly and 4/5 that's really tough to kill isn't the worst you could do.
I would argue that it creates an unfavorable game state, by the amount of time that it can take to resolve, which I would argue is even more time than even someone with a senseis top on turn 1 takes throughout the course of a game, all boiled into 1 long debate over how to play one part of one turn.
I think people are focusing too much on using the card in a single 4 card go to stack, but there is so much more to the card than that, and the number of decision trees trees and running the different game theory situations of what is my opponent going to actually give me, ect can take forever. And then the opponenet needs to figure out how they are going to split the piles. For example, if you already have a recursion effect in your hand, or already have a combo peice in hand, you can try and get more protection, ect.
Those are some of the decision points that an experienced player needs to make with the card. When someone relatively new throws it in their deck and casts it without a plan ahead of time, it was pure torture. And when people realize that instead of regrowing one of the gifts targets, they can regrow the gifts itself, resolving the turn can take 10 minutes easy, and it doesn't even necessarily end the game after that.
If the only problem was when you tutored for a 4 card pile that wins the game with X mana, I think you could make the argument the philosophy of EDH would keep that in check enough to not warrant a solo ban. but I really hated playing against this card more for the length of time that it took to resolve in non default mode than a quick standard combo win.
I don't know how it's much worse than regrowing Diabolic Revelation. Splitting piles is also really fun and usually leads to a group debate on the piles.
The group debate that it always spawned for us, was should we scoop instead of waiting for the person to keep searching.
In our experience, it was even WORSE in battle cruiser/good stuff EDH games than in decks with dedicated combo decks, because the person would be searching their deck forever, getting yelled at (but it's not like we could give them a warning for slow play like you can in a tournament, ect). When you are going for a combo, at least there is a dedicated stack to go for. but in attle cruiser magic, you can go for something like regrowth, recollect, eternal witness, genesis, with the intent of obnoxiously casting gifts repeatedly.
Our games would devolve into one person casting multiple gifts ungiven for recursion spells, and then for various threats.
I think my group would really enjoy that because we play every single Fact or Fiction spell ever printed and often multiple of them in every deck with blue. They usually don't get recast, though, because we play so many of them with the exception of cloning FOF Sphinx. Now, the UR spellslinger deck plays them all and recurs them with the dudes that do that. Of course, usually, we go on with the turn cycle whenever reasonable while tutoring. People playing pro tour slow in a casual game are just being jerks. If you misplay once in a while, get over it. I don't think I've ever seen anyone spend more than 2 minutes multi tutoring including Gifts.
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It is insane that gifts is on the ban list next to stuff like fastbond and while iona is still not on the list. If we ignore the combo potential of cards for the ban list, then where is this card too strong for commander? It would make such a fun political card in a ton of commander groups. Need land? Go grab 4. Need an answer? Go get 2 and two ways to recur it. Plus, if one player is obviously way ahead, you can use it politicaly with the rest of your group. If you are the one ahead, your entire table gets to play politics while picking your piles. Please mr sheldon, would you give us our gifts back
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Who exactly are you quoting?
Incorrect, Intuition combo piles are a LOT more fragile or color intensive Thats a fair point, but I dont think combo is actually the issue with Gifts, they just dont want more blue combo.
I know the RC is pretty much all-powerful, but is there any way of contesting this, or making them bring up the issue again, or something? Otherwise, it seems useless to all sit around and mostly agree about it over and over again.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
"No changes at this time." I don't expect anything less. I'd also be surprised if Gifts ever came off the list.
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So sad. Resolving "pile" effects is one of my groups favorite things to do, and gifts is the mother of all "pile" effects. The new banlist philosophy makes this card appear like a joke on the list, and the banlist poll shows a trend of agreement
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I know that no "new evidence" can be brought up to the RC about this card and its interactions, but it still seems like maybe the RC is ready to let some of these old bans loose.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
1. Do you believe Gifts should be on or off the ban list, and why?
2. What are your thoughts on the reasons given by the RC for the initial ban, in light of their updated ban list philosophy?
3. If you had to assign a percentage, how much weight should be given to intentional combo uses of the card, vs. their stated critera? Maybe a silly question, but if you'll humor me.
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Answers in bold above.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I think people are focusing too much on using the card in a single 4 card go to stack, but there is so much more to the card than that, and the number of decision trees trees and running the different game theory situations of what is my opponent going to actually give me, ect can take forever. And then the opponenet needs to figure out how they are going to split the piles. For example, if you already have a recursion effect in your hand, or already have a combo peice in hand, you can try and get more protection, ect.
Those are some of the decision points that an experienced player needs to make with the card. When someone relatively new throws it in their deck and casts it without a plan ahead of time, it was pure torture. And when people realize that instead of regrowing one of the gifts targets, they can regrow the gifts itself, resolving the turn can take 10 minutes easy, and it doesn't even necessarily end the game after that.
If the only problem was when you tutored for a 4 card pile that wins the game with X mana, I think you could make the argument the philosophy of EDH would keep that in check enough to not warrant a solo ban. but I really hated playing against this card more for the length of time that it took to resolve in non default mode than a quick standard combo win.
In our experience, it was even WORSE in battle cruiser/good stuff EDH games than in decks with dedicated combo decks, because the person would be searching their deck forever, getting yelled at (but it's not like we could give them a warning for slow play like you can in a tournament, ect). When you are going for a combo, at least there is a dedicated stack to go for. but in attle cruiser magic, you can go for something like regrowth, recollect, eternal witness, genesis, with the intent of obnoxiously casting gifts repeatedly.
Our games would devolve into one person casting multiple gifts ungiven for recursion spells, and then for various threats.