PS also goes well with Lifeforce and Deathgrip. It is far easier to take advantage of everything being one color rather than everything being an artifact/enchantment. Yes, all three cases have full board wipes. But PS makes protection creatures into Progenitus. Argothian Pixies works against Mycosynth Lattice, but it's not exactly a powerhouse card.
PS also goes well with Lifeforce and Deathgrip. It is far easier to take advantage of everything being one color rather than everything being an artifact/enchantment. Yes, all three cases have full board wipes. But PS makes protection creatures into Progenitus. Argothian Pixies works against Mycosynth Lattice, but it's not exactly a powerhouse card.
Is your concern then that Lifeforce and Deathgrip are fun cards to play against, but Painter's Servant suddenly makes them unfun? In my experience, color hosers like these are pretty miserable in any scenario.
Furthermore, the question is not how many cards interact with Painter's Servant, but how many cards interact problematically. Mini-Progentitus is pretty awesome, IMO.
Out of boredom, I went through Gatherer with a rules text search for "color". Here's my (subjective) list of cool and lame interactions with PS, as well as cards that I felt were worth mentioning but couldn't really decide on an appropriate place for them (meh). Some of these cards will remove Painter's Servant, so YMMV. Note that this isn't an exhaustive list because I didn't search for each individual color (which I will do at a later point).
Mana Maze with Painter's Servant says "Only one spell may be played a turn". So if someone casts a Whispers of the Muse during your upkeep then you don't get to cast anything that turn.
Mana Maze with Painter's Servant says "Only one spell may be played a turn". So if someone casts a Whispers of the Muse during your upkeep then you don't get to cast anything that turn.
I think a lot of the soft cards that you have under lame are just meh. A decent number of effects of that scale already exist either as single cards or otherwise, and are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
I think a lot of the soft cards that you have under lame are just meh. A decent number of effects of that scale already exist either as single cards or otherwise, and are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
Possibly. I'm sure there will be similar disagreements on the rest of the list when I finish it. In the abstract, I'm more interested with getting a snapshot of stuff that cares about a specific color in order to theorize on how we could actually use the cards or see interactions if Servant were legal.
I think a lot of the soft cards that you have under lame are just meh. A decent number of effects of that scale already exist either as single cards or otherwise, and are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
Possibly. I'm sure there will be similar disagreements on the rest of the list when I finish it. In the abstract, I'm more interested with getting a snapshot of stuff that cares about a specific color in order to theorize on how we could actually use the cards or see interactions if Servant were legal.
Either way, your list highlights why we don't want to unban PS.
I think a lot of the soft cards that you have under lame are just meh. A decent number of effects of that scale already exist either as single cards or otherwise, and are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
Possibly. I'm sure there will be similar disagreements on the rest of the list when I finish it. In the abstract, I'm more interested with getting a snapshot of stuff that cares about a specific color in order to theorize on how we could actually use the cards or see interactions if Servant were legal.
Either way, your list highlights why we don't want to unban PS.
I think a lot of the soft cards that you have under lame are just meh. A decent number of effects of that scale already exist either as single cards or otherwise, and are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
Possibly. I'm sure there will be similar disagreements on the rest of the list when I finish it. In the abstract, I'm more interested with getting a snapshot of stuff that cares about a specific color in order to theorize on how we could actually use the cards or see interactions if Servant were legal.
Either way, your list highlights why we don't want to unban PS.
Okay, so Iona is fine because there are ways of dealing with her, but PS isn't because it interferes with how people can play the game when combined with certain other cards from that list? I feel like you're just being contrarian because that is an almost opposite point of view to that which you expressed in the Iona thread.
There's really nothing that PS can do with another card that is more than Apocalypse or Isochron Scepter/Counterspell or really any stax deck. Unless drawing cards with Compost or gaining life with Warmth is an issue.
I think a lot of the soft cards that you have under lame are just meh. A decent number of effects of that scale already exist either as single cards or otherwise, and are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
Possibly. I'm sure there will be similar disagreements on the rest of the list when I finish it. In the abstract, I'm more interested with getting a snapshot of stuff that cares about a specific color in order to theorize on how we could actually use the cards or see interactions if Servant were legal.
Either way, your list highlights why we don't want to unban PS.
Okay, so Iona is fine because there are ways of dealing with her, but PS isn't because it interferes with how people can play the game when combined with certain other cards from that list? I feel like you're just being contrarian because that is an almost opposite point of view to that which you expressed in the Iona thread.
There's really nothing that PS can do with another card that is more than Apocalypse or Isochron Scepter/Counterspell or really any stax deck. Unless drawing cards with Compost or gaining life with Warmth is an issue.
Wow, didn't think my opinions on Iona would be scrutinized across multiple threads. Considering you stopped posting in Iona, did I strike a nerve or something? On subject of the post, PS can hit the field and give many cards immediate infinite combos and cause a lot of broken plays that would not happen normally. It can also prevent/stop all players from playing anything, regardless of deck/colors. Iona only stops one color.
Take your Iona hate, or distaste for my opinion on her, back to that thread. I am waiting for someone to actually propose a meaningful argument against my examples, but so far I am just being misquoted and selectively quoted against
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I think a lot of the soft cards that you have under lame are just meh. A decent number of effects of that scale already exist either as single cards or otherwise, and are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
Possibly. I'm sure there will be similar disagreements on the rest of the list when I finish it. In the abstract, I'm more interested with getting a snapshot of stuff that cares about a specific color in order to theorize on how we could actually use the cards or see interactions if Servant were legal.
Either way, your list highlights why we don't want to unban PS.
Okay, so Iona is fine because there are ways of dealing with her, but PS isn't because it interferes with how people can play the game when combined with certain other cards from that list? I feel like you're just being contrarian because that is an almost opposite point of view to that which you expressed in the Iona thread.
There's really nothing that PS can do with another card that is more than Apocalypse or Isochron Scepter/Counterspell or really any stax deck. Unless drawing cards with Compost or gaining life with Warmth is an issue.
Wow, didn't think my opinions on Iona would be scrutinized across multiple threads. Considering you stopped posting in Iona, did I strike a nerve or something? On subject of the post, PS can hit the field and give many cards immediate infinite combos and cause a lot of broken plays that would not happen normally. It can also prevent/stop all players from playing anything, regardless of deck/colors. Iona only stops one color.
Take your Iona hate, or distaste for my opinion on her, back to that thread. I am waiting for someone to actually propose a meaningful argument against my examples, but so far I am just being misquoted and selectively quoted against
I usually remain a silent observer, but sometimes too much bull***** riles me up and I feel the need to post some clarity. You seem to be just contrarian and whenever anyone attempts to refute your point, your go-to is "misquote."
@Vash "many cards immediate infinite combos" is extreme hyperbole. If you're going to claim people are misrepresenting your arguments you should first make sure you don't do the same to yourself.
It's best to explain exactly why you feel people are misquoting you. That way either you or your opponent in the discussion can learn the nuances and details of each others point.
I usually remain a silent observer, but sometimes too much bull***** riles me up and I feel the need to post some clarity. You seem to be just contrarian and whenever anyone attempts to refute your point, your go-to is "misquote."
I see what you did there, cute - I'll go so far to say that you didn't actually refute me and immediately went after me with:
Okay, so Iona is fine because there are ways of dealing with her, but PS isn't because it interferes with how people can play the game when combined with certain other cards from that list? I feel like you're just being contrarian because that is an almost opposite point of view to that which you expressed in the Iona thread.
There's really nothing that PS can do with another card that is more than Apocalypse or Isochron Scepter/Counterspell or really any stax deck. Unless drawing cards with Compost or gaining life with Warmth is an issue.
Feels like I am not allowed to have different opinions on cards. You also make a large assumption (aka reach) on my opinion on this card. So, here is my difference on Painter's Servant vs Iona, Shield of Emeria: Servant is an enabler to a lot of combos that don't already exist. Go up to cyro's spoilers and see the lame section. PS + those cards, individually mind you, can cause infinite mill, removing all permanents, not letting people attack, discard their entire hand, etc. The fact that he can enable so much and can create so much combo, I fear that if he was unbanned he would fall down the same route as Primeval Titan and Prophet of Kruphix, which is he would be overly tutored for by players in an attempt to get a combo/lock off early and games would boil down to who got PS in play first.
Now, since you implied I am just being contrarian, here is how Iona isn't PS: She doesn't combo into anything. She doesn't contribute to removing all permanents, she doesn't make players discard their hand. To me, she is denial on a body that, under certain situations, can be reworded into "You can not play spells". But to get that bad requires several important steps, all of which do not always happen.
If you can't see the difference and why I have different opinions on either of them, I don't know what else to say. Maybe get a big shovel for "my bull*****" and start digging?
@Vash "many cards immediate infinite combos" is extreme hyperbole. If you're going to claim people are misrepresenting your arguments you should first make sure you don't do the same to yourself.
It's best to explain exactly why you feel people are misquoting you. That way either you or your opponent in the discussion can learn the nuances and details of each others point.
There you go, there is a better worded reason. Now back to the Iona thread to discuss your post, which was the first actual post with content to talk about.
I think Servant fails the PrimeTime test because it is not a thing worth casting on its own so I don't actually see it being added to that many decks.
Also that kind of mentality is something the RC does not typically ban against (really fast locking synergies)
Sheldon's quote from 2009 when they banned him:
"Painter’s Servant has been the fuel for unpleasant combos, most notably with Grindstone and Iona, Shield of Emeria. The latter two cards occupy some interesting design/deckbuilding space, so we’d like to see them in the format. Swapping Grindstone/Painter’s Servant seemed like a natural fit to bring back a decent card and get rid of the true offender."
I think the PrimeTime test could hold, it isn't the value he provides, more that the games could warp into rushing to get PS in play to combo out quickly.
Furthermore, the question is not how many cards interact with Painter's Servant, but how many cards interact problematically. Mini-Progentitus is pretty awesome, IMO.
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Well the list is entirely subjective. My reasoning is that being able to put 20+ tokens into play for 2G is a little too good.
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It isn't 2G it is keep two creatures on the board and do combat damage with one of them and then pay 2G
Also Mana Maze seems pretty much just another Arcane Laboratory that isn't that big a deal.
Hmm, yeah I guess it is a slightly more oppressive Rule of Law effect.
True. It's also a three card combo.
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Possibly. I'm sure there will be similar disagreements on the rest of the list when I finish it. In the abstract, I'm more interested with getting a snapshot of stuff that cares about a specific color in order to theorize on how we could actually use the cards or see interactions if Servant were legal.
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If anything it highlights the opposite.
Okay, so Iona is fine because there are ways of dealing with her, but PS isn't because it interferes with how people can play the game when combined with certain other cards from that list? I feel like you're just being contrarian because that is an almost opposite point of view to that which you expressed in the Iona thread.
There's really nothing that PS can do with another card that is more than Apocalypse or Isochron Scepter/Counterspell or really any stax deck. Unless drawing cards with Compost or gaining life with Warmth is an issue.
Take your Iona hate, or distaste for my opinion on her, back to that thread. I am waiting for someone to actually propose a meaningful argument against my examples, but so far I am just being misquoted and selectively quoted against
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I usually remain a silent observer, but sometimes too much bull***** riles me up and I feel the need to post some clarity. You seem to be just contrarian and whenever anyone attempts to refute your point, your go-to is "misquote."
It's best to explain exactly why you feel people are misquoting you. That way either you or your opponent in the discussion can learn the nuances and details of each others point.
Feels like I am not allowed to have different opinions on cards. You also make a large assumption (aka reach) on my opinion on this card. So, here is my difference on Painter's Servant vs Iona, Shield of Emeria: Servant is an enabler to a lot of combos that don't already exist. Go up to cyro's spoilers and see the lame section. PS + those cards, individually mind you, can cause infinite mill, removing all permanents, not letting people attack, discard their entire hand, etc. The fact that he can enable so much and can create so much combo, I fear that if he was unbanned he would fall down the same route as Primeval Titan and Prophet of Kruphix, which is he would be overly tutored for by players in an attempt to get a combo/lock off early and games would boil down to who got PS in play first.
Now, since you implied I am just being contrarian, here is how Iona isn't PS: She doesn't combo into anything. She doesn't contribute to removing all permanents, she doesn't make players discard their hand. To me, she is denial on a body that, under certain situations, can be reworded into "You can not play spells". But to get that bad requires several important steps, all of which do not always happen.
If you can't see the difference and why I have different opinions on either of them, I don't know what else to say. Maybe get a big shovel for "my bull*****" and start digging?
There you go, there is a better worded reason. Now back to the Iona thread to discuss your post, which was the first actual post with content to talk about.
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Also that kind of mentality is something the RC does not typically ban against (really fast locking synergies)
"Painter’s Servant has been the fuel for unpleasant combos, most notably with Grindstone and Iona, Shield of Emeria. The latter two cards occupy some interesting design/deckbuilding space, so we’d like to see them in the format. Swapping Grindstone/Painter’s Servant seemed like a natural fit to bring back a decent card and get rid of the true offender."
I think the PrimeTime test could hold, it isn't the value he provides, more that the games could warp into rushing to get PS in play to combo out quickly.
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