Does that really matter though? I mean, not to be argumentative, but who are we to say whether or not a card should be legal on the basis of how interesting it is? There are already droves of legal commanders that I think are boring as dirt.
"There are already boring options, so you should add a bunch more" is not a compelling reason to make a change.
"There are already boring options, so you should add a bunch more" is not a compelling reason to make a change.
Agreed. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though.
The point I was trying to make was that demand should be (one of several) compelling reasons to make a change, not how interesting whatever the thing is that is in demand. Whether you or I find planeswalkers interesting ought not be a factor at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Agreed. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though.
The point I was trying to make was that demand should be (one of several) compelling reasons to make a change, not how interesting whatever the thing is that is in demand. Whether you or I find planeswalkers interesting should probably be a non-factor.
I mean there's plenty of other cons to making the change and not enough pros to make the change without taking this into consideration anyway.
I mean there's plenty of other cons to making the change and not enough pros to make the change without taking this into consideration anyway.
Sure, that may very well be the case. I'm not entirely convinced letting planeswalker out of the bag is that bad of a decision though. I may or may not post my thoughts on the subject at length sometime in the near future depending upon how I'm feeling.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
If your deck is so narrow in it's focus that a single hate card shuts it down, it is probably teetering on the non-interactive itself.
Academically, there's a point there. But there's a difference between someone running Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and a Razaketh, the Foulblooded shell, and someone who just wants to pop Evolving Wilds to colour fix. The former is shutting down a likely lethal combo deck, the latter is stopping a generally innocent interaction and stopping a deck from being able to interact with the game whatsoever.
Stopping fetch lands is not stopping the deck from interacting.
If your deck is so narrow in it's focus that a single hate card shuts it down, it is probably teetering on the non-interactive itself.
Academically, there's a point there. But there's a difference between someone running Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and a Razaketh, the Foulblooded shell, and someone who just wants to pop Evolving Wilds to colour fix. The former is shutting down a likely lethal combo deck, the latter is stopping a generally innocent interaction and stopping a deck from being able to interact with the game whatsoever.
Stopping fetch lands is not stopping the deck from interacting.
It certainly won't help the deck to interact if they're already color screwed. Not everyone has a bomb hand from the start, but they keep a so-so hand because they have a fetch land to get that color. Oops, Ashiok says **** that, so have fun 'interacting' until you get the color you need. It may not be the definition you're referencing, but I see what toc is getting at, and it's a valid point. There's also the strategy(such as it is), of just getting the shuffle...but again, Ashiok doesn't like that, so I hope you're confident in how your deck was shuffled to start, because you're not doing anything with it.
On a side point, everybody's kind of fixated on Ashiok(which is legit...I see trouble ahead if that got to be a commander), but now we have Narset 3.0, which is at LEAST Leo 0.5. If Leovold was banned because it was oppressive, how would Narset be any better(I will find it interesting to see if she stays legal even in the 99, personally)?
Stopping fetch lands is not stopping the deck from interacting.
So you've never been mana screwed or colour screwed? Must just be me. I realise how sarcastic this is, but this literally happens to everyone time to time. If I can't hit my colours I'm dead in the water and you know it, you're totally splitting hairs. I get why people are anti-ramp. I just think lumping ramp in with turbo ramp and dedicated tutor is comparing apples to oranges to watermelons. Ramp in essence isn't the culprit you think it is until its symmetry is broken or it's abused. Same goes for tutors.
Again, this is all beside the point. Relating this all back to this specific walker, you're more than welcome to topdeck with no graveyard across from the guy running Ashiok and milling you out or comboing off, but I'll pass. And that's where the problem is. This isn't stopping ramp, or tutoring. It's just stopping the rest of the table doing it. And that's pretty garbage. It doesn't feel great and it's not fun. It's far less of an issue when there's a level playing field, but you're acting like this scenario would be, and it just plain would not be, purely based on the rules printed on the card and regardless of any other cards in the 99.
If your deck is so narrow in it's focus that a single hate card shuts it down, it is probably teetering on the non-interactive itself.
Academically, there's a point there. But there's a difference between someone running Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and a Razaketh, the Foulblooded shell, and someone who just wants to pop Evolving Wilds to colour fix. The former is shutting down a likely lethal combo deck, the latter is stopping a generally innocent interaction and stopping a deck from being able to interact with the game whatsoever.
Stopping fetch lands is not stopping the deck from interacting.
It certainly won't help the deck to interact if they're already color screwed. Not everyone has a bomb hand from the start, but they keep a so-so hand because they have a fetch land to get that color. Oops, Ashiok says **** that, so have fun 'interacting' until you get the color you need. It may not be the definition you're referencing, but I see what toc is getting at, and it's a valid point. There's also the strategy(such as it is), of just getting the shuffle...but again, Ashiok doesn't like that, so I hope you're confident in how your deck was shuffled to start, because you're not doing anything with it.
On a side point, everybody's kind of fixated on Ashiok(which is legit...I see trouble ahead if that got to be a commander), but now we have Narset 3.0, which is at LEAST Leo 0.5. If Leovold was banned because it was oppressive, how would Narset be any better(I will find it interesting to see if she stays legal even in the 99, personally)?
So in your hypothetical situation, the player kept a hand with a fetch to save themselves from color screw...but also didn't play it before ashiok hit the field?
If your deck is so narrow in it's focus that a single hate card shuts it down, it is probably teetering on the non-interactive itself.
Academically, there's a point there. But there's a difference between someone running Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and a Razaketh, the Foulblooded shell, and someone who just wants to pop Evolving Wilds to colour fix. The former is shutting down a likely lethal combo deck, the latter is stopping a generally innocent interaction and stopping a deck from being able to interact with the game whatsoever.
Stopping fetch lands is not stopping the deck from interacting.
It certainly won't help the deck to interact if they're already color screwed. Not everyone has a bomb hand from the start, but they keep a so-so hand because they have a fetch land to get that color. Oops, Ashiok says **** that, so have fun 'interacting' until you get the color you need. It may not be the definition you're referencing, but I see what toc is getting at, and it's a valid point. There's also the strategy(such as it is), of just getting the shuffle...but again, Ashiok doesn't like that, so I hope you're confident in how your deck was shuffled to start, because you're not doing anything with it.
On a side point, everybody's kind of fixated on Ashiok(which is legit...I see trouble ahead if that got to be a commander), but now we have Narset 3.0, which is at LEAST Leo 0.5. If Leovold was banned because it was oppressive, how would Narset be any better(I will find it interesting to see if she stays legal even in the 99, personally)?
So in your hypothetical situation, the player kept a hand with a fetch to save themselves from color screw...but also didn't play it before ashiok hit the field?
Or!
Ashiok starts, gets dropped turn-2 off of our Favorite card, and you only have 2 fetches(which is a pretty good start, honestly). So, you’re not just Mana screwed, you’re also falling behind curve. On turn 2. Sweet.
I guess the bigger point being that it really puts the screws to 3-color+ decks, where ramping/tutoring isn’t necessarily there to combo, but to actually make your deck function. Yeah, F*** Me for wanting to fix my mana base to play my cards, amirite?
I can match your hypotheticals blow for blow, so how about we just acknowledge the fact that Ashiok prevents players from searching their libraries, which is a powerful ability in its own right, and drop the BS? Probably not, but we’ll try it out.
Ashiok was easy to reference because of the recent spoil and how powerful the ability is. Now you can put Narset 3.0 in there. And NuKarn, one sided null rod in the command zone.
"There are already boring options, so you should add a bunch more" is not a compelling reason to make a change.
Agreed. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though.
The point I was trying to make was that demand should be (one of several) compelling reasons to make a change, not how interesting whatever the thing is that is in demand. Whether you or I find planeswalkers interesting ought not be a factor at all.
If that's the standard to go by, then it's pretty obviously a no. A bit more than a third want it, a bit more than half explicitly don't, and a handful are undecided. When considering demand for a change, you must also consider demand for the change not to be made. If a bit more than a third want something and most others are indifferent, that may be a good change to make. If a bit more than a third want something and a bit more than half, an outright majority, explicitly do not want that thing, it's probably not a change that should be made.
Honestly, I'd think that only overwhelming demand should be sufficient to prompt a change. Otherwise, however, i think other factors should lead in determining a change. How interesting the change would be, how safe, what problems it could cause, what value it adds to the format, etc. Something that only a handful of people are asking for, but that would add value to the format and be interesting while having no drawbacks would be something to consider even in the absence of demand for it.
Allowing all planeswalkers as commanders has been analyzed to death in this thread, and while there are a few points in favor (a handful of interesting commanders, being able to run specific characters as commanders), there are also points against (a handful of commanders that would likeybe banned, possible collateral damage on a number of cards, the promotion of a slow grindy archetype, several new commanders that would be chores to play against but not banworthy, open question of why not other legendary permanents or non legendary creatures, etc).
It seems papa funk is of the opinion that the benefits of making the change aren't significant enough to justify a change, to overcome the null hypothesis if you will, that the correct choice is always no change unless it can be shown that the change will be positive. Essentially, this promotes stability by basically placing a weight on the no change side. If we were assigning points to arguments, no change would always start off with a certain number of points, and if I'm interpreting papas argument correctly, the pro pw arguments don't earn enough "points" to overcome the points no change always starts with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I would stop thinking in terms of "these cards would be broken" and start thinking in terms of "these cards would make for fun and interesting decks to face." Right now, there isn't enough reason to make the change to worry about why we shouldn't make the change. The positives are almost entirely centered around "these are cool characters from lore" rather than "these are cool cards to build around". That's a plus, but it's not enough to justify a major gameplay change, even before you get to the downsides.
On the bright side, WAR suggests that maybe they'll be looser about planeswalker designs in the future. Maybe there'll be fun, quirky ones to build around. But right now, when I hear "I want to build a Kiora deck!" it's solely driven by Kiora's backstory, not because the Kiora cards are interesting.
I feel like this is a mischaracterization of a lot of the thread that gets drowned out in this spoiler season specifically with "oh this and this planeswalker is broken" talk
People are only gonna come in and list off the P/Ws they think would be cool and create interesting deck archetypes once, arguments in the thread about what is or is not too strong can and probably will last forever, I have read a lot of cool posts in this thread about new archetypes that get spawned by both the existing walkers prior to WAR and some of then new ones.
And also as arrogantAxolotl said, peoples desires for picking a Commander are generally first I like this card and those reasons can be vast and varied even within the same card, then figuring out the deck comes second and if the deck is interesting or fun to play is third.
It feels very all of a sudden that so quickly every addition to the format has to be "worthwhile".
I would stop thinking in terms of "these cards would be broken" and start thinking in terms of "these cards would make for fun and interesting decks to face." Right now, there isn't enough reason to make the change to worry about why we shouldn't make the change. The positives are almost entirely centered around "these are cool characters from lore" rather than "these are cool cards to build around". That's a plus, but it's not enough to justify a major gameplay change, even before you get to the downsides.
On the bright side, WAR suggests that maybe they'll be looser about planeswalker designs in the future. Maybe there'll be fun, quirky ones to build around. But right now, when I hear "I want to build a Kiora deck!" it's solely driven by Kiora's backstory, not because the Kiora cards are interesting.
Ashiok isn't fun? Stax often leads to fun and interesting gameplay. Stax player tries operate under the lock and other players are trying break it or at least copy with it. I had one game where I had Mist of Stagnation and one opponent was ghost quartering and wastelanding his own lands in order to untap more permanents. Funny *****.
Sure sometimes game gets locked really fast and opponents can't do anything but that is really not any different from somebody who ramps into Zacama then just destroys everything or ramps into vannifar and then take infinite turns.
It seems papa funk is of the opinion that the benefits of making the change aren't significant enough to justify a change, to overcome the null hypothesis if you will, that the correct choice is always no change unless it can be shown that the change will be positive. Essentially, this promotes stability by basically placing a weight on the no change side. If we were assigning points to arguments, no change would always start off with a certain number of points, and if I'm interpreting papas argument correctly, the pro pw arguments don't earn enough "points" to overcome the points no change always starts with.
I would very much agree with this. I think that the changes made to the format by this would most certainly end up negative, but even if they were "neutral", then the correct course of action would be to leave things as-is, for the sake of format stability.
And as for individual playgroups? House rule away.
The point I was trying to make was that demand should be (one of several) compelling reasons to make a change, not how interesting whatever the thing is that is in demand. Whether you or I find planeswalkers interesting ought not be a factor at all.
I disagree. I think that demand works just fine on the local level for house-ruling, but I do not think that "demand" should be factored in to a format-wide change.
I'd still take playing against Ashiok, Dream Render than against Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Zur the Enchanter or other stax decks.
Actually I find his static ability interesting, a lot of people were requesting such ability on a boros legend. Well, Dimir got it.
Not sure about your meta, but ramp is prevalent among my friend and this would stop it. Also, if you can't use Evolving Wilds and it was your only help in your hand to fix your landbase, you should take a muligan...
As for the positives and negatives, I think that any change brings both of them.
A lot of people talked about negatives of having PW's as generals, but most of them can be summed up in "banlist would increase", "it brings nothing new" or "seems broken".
Lot of people argued that once the PW get his ultimate and emblem, the game is over. How is it different from people comboing out, winning via mass LD, lockdown, exiling/discarding your hand or other ways? You can always start a new game.
The thing in question is how fast could the PW generals get to their "broken" ultimates when compared to regular generals.
And also testing should be done, playing with them, against them, casual and cuthroat decks, seeing if they are really that strong and broken as people claim or if it are only unjustified concerns.
I assume all newly printed commanders will no longer be legal at release, and instead evaluated for how "worthwhile" they are and what they can bring to the format.
I assume all newly printed commanders will no longer be legal at release, and instead evaluated for how "worthwhile" they are and what they can bring to the format.
Hey Taleran, this right here is an example of a disingenuous argument, for future reference.
So, Carthage, I see you are attempting at reductio ad absurdum, but failing miserably at it. The key difference here is that the rules of the format already allow newly printed cards to be allowed as commanders, so they are legal by default. They are, however, evaluated and banned if needed, like Leovold. Planeswalkers as commanders is not currently allowed by the rules unless they have special text allowing them. This means that allowing it necessarily has a higher bar to clear, as it is a change from the status quo. New cards being printed does not count, as in a collectible card game the printing of new cards, and their legality in all formats, is a built in feature of the status quo. It is the established and expected way in which the format grows that is accounted for in the rules. Allowing a new class of cards as commanders, unbanning cards, banning cards, allowing unsets permanently, those are changes to the status quo, and thus must pass a higher threshold when being considered for adoption. The same would be true, by the way, if the RC were to consider disallowing all pws as commanders including the ones with the rules text allowing them to be used as such. PW commanders were something they werent really backing, but they would have had to make a special rule preventing it as the basic rules of the game allow the "can be your commander" rules text to be employed and overrule the rules of the format (similar to ravenous rats).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ashiok isn't fun? Stax often leads to fun and interesting gameplay.
...said no sane person, ever. I don't know how you play stax, but every game I've ever played against stax has been slow, miserable, grindy, and something we wanted to forget and never repeat again. Most people I know play Magic to play Magic. They don't play to not play.
I assume all newly printed commanders will no longer be legal at release, and instead evaluated for how "worthwhile" they are and what they can bring to the format.
That's not even attempting to be a logical debate.
I'm quite surprised that Ashiok is sparking such a debate. After all, search deniers have been here for ages already, some of which even allowed to be cast from the comand zone (even though, I have to admit, at a higher cost). White has Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor, aggressively costed but less efficient while Mindlock Orb was there all along, stupidly easy to get (being an artifact) and easy to cast through the crazy mana acceleration of the format.
Narset can be good, but clearly not as good as Leovold. Not having access to black hinders her gameplan a lot, but wheels are still fairly common in blue. Also, walkers are weak to aggro-based strategies that can kill them without having to expend ressources that weren't already deployed for other purposes.
I assume all newly printed commanders will no longer be legal at release, and instead evaluated for how "worthwhile" they are and what they can bring to the format.
Hey Taleran, this right here is an example of a disingenuous argument, for future reference.
So, Carthage, I see you are attempting at reductio ad absurdum, but failing miserably at it. The key difference here is that the rules of the format already allow newly printed cards to be allowed as commanders, so they are legal by default. They are, however, evaluated and banned if needed, like Leovold. Planeswalkers as commanders is not currently allowed by the rules unless they have special text allowing them. This means that allowing it necessarily has a higher bar to clear, as it is a change from the status quo. New cards being printed does not count, as in a collectible card game the printing of new cards, and their legality in all formats, is a built in feature of the status quo. It is the established and expected way in which the format grows that is accounted for in the rules. Allowing a new class of cards as commanders, unbanning cards, banning cards, allowing unsets permanently, those are changes to the status quo, and thus must pass a higher threshold when being considered for adoption. The same would be true, by the way, if the RC were to consider disallowing all pws as commanders including the ones with the rules text allowing them to be used as such. PW commanders were something they werent really backing, but they would have had to make a special rule preventing it as the basic rules of the game allow the "can be your commander" rules text to be employed and overrule the rules of the format (similar to ravenous rats).
That point feels extremely weird as standard-legal sets are clearly not made with EDH in mind. Anyway... when it comes to power level, nothing beats OG Teferi don't you think? His game-winning combo is the easiest to get in the game since Blue has the highest concentration of card selection and artifact tutoring, and it wins on the spot. And he can generate incredible value in grindy games. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that no matter what the RC says more and more people will just play walkers as their commanders with WotC printing more and more interesting walkers like the last Bolas: after all, this format is a fan made format. Why wouldn't you play an elder dragon planeswalker in your elder dragon highlander game ? Especially as it does not create any kind of imbalance in the game...
[edit] feeling like I kinda misunderstood the context of the message and what Onering wanted to say... but the rest of my comment still stands on its own.
[re-edit] uhm, my point on Ashiok isn't that good now that I think about it since that's an unilateral effect. But I still think it isn't that powerful since Ashiok themselve isn't a combo tool nor a very powerful control tool.
That's not even attempting to be a logical debate.
It's perfectly logical. Legendary creatures are not made with commander in mind, and even the commanders in commander products lead to poor gameplay.
In the interest of format stability, we should clearly just lock the format with its current cards and carefully evaluate everyone's feelings on the new cards before allowing them in.
I'm quite surprised that Ashiok is sparking such a debate. After all, search deniers have been here for ages already, some of which even allowed to be cast from the comand zone (even though, I have to admit, at a higher cost).
What search-preventing card is a legendary creature?
Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor are the only ones I'm aware of that are even creautres at all.
So, what are the reasons to make planeswalkers legal? Other than for flavour. Are there any walkers that people want to build around without just trying to force the ultimate?
Daretti, Scrap Savant was interesting because his first two abilities could be built around. I would argue that almost all planeswalkers than can be played as commanders have sub-par ultimates and are really focused on the first two abilities.
So how many other planeswalkers would be interesting to build around?
I like playing planeswalkers in the 99, and I would not be a fan of having to ban a bunch of cards to enable very few new decks. So, please tell me what cards would be interesting new decks.
Ashiok isn't fun? Stax often leads to fun and interesting gameplay.
...said no sane person, ever. I don't know how you play stax, but every game I've ever played against stax has been slow, miserable, grindy, and something we wanted to forget and never repeat again. Most people I know play Magic to play Magic. They don't play to not play.
There is nothing wrong with grindy games. I think most people end playing their silly 8+ card value engine combos and slowly take over the game.
Slow games? How so. If you can only untap one permanent, play one spell or draw no cards then your turns should be pretty quick. Sounds like a player error to me.
Games being miserable I just your personal preference. I personally find turn 3 emrakuls miserable but what do I know. I'm just some insane person.
Ashiok isn't fun? Stax often leads to fun and interesting gameplay.
...said no sane person, ever. I don't know how you play stax, but every game I've ever played against stax has been slow, miserable, grindy, and something we wanted to forget and never repeat again. Most people I know play Magic to play Magic. They don't play to not play.
Slow games? How so. If you can only untap one permanent, play one spell or draw no cards then your turns should be pretty quick. Sounds like a player error to me
They didn't say slow turns; they said slow games. Those are completely different things. Are you suggesting that not being able to do anything (or having to wait multiple turns cycles to do something) somehow speeds up the game? Your experience may be different than mine, but the stax games I have played in focused on locking people out and then slowly grinding everyone to death with whatever the stax player had to end the game. The games take forever to end *because* players can't interact and players just get to slowly see their life total or library dwindle away.
Games being miserable I just your personal preference. I personally find turn 3 emrakuls miserable but what do I know. I'm just some insane person.
Turn 3 Emrakul would potentially be miserable though I am not sure by how much since it is a one shot that takes your turn and then gives you a turn back. How much are they really doing to you on turn 3 to mess anything up?And then, after that, she is just a big beater. That is leagues different than stax. And, even if it was the same, bringing it up has no relevance to the current discussion. Unless your point is that "things already exist that are unfun for me; let's add things that are unfun for others". Which is ludicrous.
"There are already boring options, so you should add a bunch more" is not a compelling reason to make a change.
The point I was trying to make was that demand should be (one of several) compelling reasons to make a change, not how interesting whatever the thing is that is in demand. Whether you or I find planeswalkers interesting ought not be a factor at all.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I mean there's plenty of other cons to making the change and not enough pros to make the change without taking this into consideration anyway.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Stopping fetch lands is not stopping the deck from interacting.
It certainly won't help the deck to interact if they're already color screwed. Not everyone has a bomb hand from the start, but they keep a so-so hand because they have a fetch land to get that color. Oops, Ashiok says **** that, so have fun 'interacting' until you get the color you need. It may not be the definition you're referencing, but I see what toc is getting at, and it's a valid point. There's also the strategy(such as it is), of just getting the shuffle...but again, Ashiok doesn't like that, so I hope you're confident in how your deck was shuffled to start, because you're not doing anything with it.
On a side point, everybody's kind of fixated on Ashiok(which is legit...I see trouble ahead if that got to be a commander), but now we have Narset 3.0, which is at LEAST Leo 0.5. If Leovold was banned because it was oppressive, how would Narset be any better(I will find it interesting to see if she stays legal even in the 99, personally)?
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
So you've never been mana screwed or colour screwed? Must just be me. I realise how sarcastic this is, but this literally happens to everyone time to time. If I can't hit my colours I'm dead in the water and you know it, you're totally splitting hairs. I get why people are anti-ramp. I just think lumping ramp in with turbo ramp and dedicated tutor is comparing apples to oranges to watermelons. Ramp in essence isn't the culprit you think it is until its symmetry is broken or it's abused. Same goes for tutors.
Again, this is all beside the point. Relating this all back to this specific walker, you're more than welcome to topdeck with no graveyard across from the guy running Ashiok and milling you out or comboing off, but I'll pass. And that's where the problem is. This isn't stopping ramp, or tutoring. It's just stopping the rest of the table doing it. And that's pretty garbage. It doesn't feel great and it's not fun. It's far less of an issue when there's a level playing field, but you're acting like this scenario would be, and it just plain would not be, purely based on the rules printed on the card and regardless of any other cards in the 99.
So in your hypothetical situation, the player kept a hand with a fetch to save themselves from color screw...but also didn't play it before ashiok hit the field?
Or!
Ashiok starts, gets dropped turn-2 off of our Favorite card, and you only have 2 fetches(which is a pretty good start, honestly). So, you’re not just Mana screwed, you’re also falling behind curve. On turn 2. Sweet.
I guess the bigger point being that it really puts the screws to 3-color+ decks, where ramping/tutoring isn’t necessarily there to combo, but to actually make your deck function. Yeah, F*** Me for wanting to fix my mana base to play my cards, amirite?
I can match your hypotheticals blow for blow, so how about we just acknowledge the fact that Ashiok prevents players from searching their libraries, which is a powerful ability in its own right, and drop the BS? Probably not, but we’ll try it out.
Ashiok was easy to reference because of the recent spoil and how powerful the ability is. Now you can put Narset 3.0 in there. And NuKarn, one sided null rod in the command zone.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
If that's the standard to go by, then it's pretty obviously a no. A bit more than a third want it, a bit more than half explicitly don't, and a handful are undecided. When considering demand for a change, you must also consider demand for the change not to be made. If a bit more than a third want something and most others are indifferent, that may be a good change to make. If a bit more than a third want something and a bit more than half, an outright majority, explicitly do not want that thing, it's probably not a change that should be made.
Honestly, I'd think that only overwhelming demand should be sufficient to prompt a change. Otherwise, however, i think other factors should lead in determining a change. How interesting the change would be, how safe, what problems it could cause, what value it adds to the format, etc. Something that only a handful of people are asking for, but that would add value to the format and be interesting while having no drawbacks would be something to consider even in the absence of demand for it.
Allowing all planeswalkers as commanders has been analyzed to death in this thread, and while there are a few points in favor (a handful of interesting commanders, being able to run specific characters as commanders), there are also points against (a handful of commanders that would likeybe banned, possible collateral damage on a number of cards, the promotion of a slow grindy archetype, several new commanders that would be chores to play against but not banworthy, open question of why not other legendary permanents or non legendary creatures, etc).
It seems papa funk is of the opinion that the benefits of making the change aren't significant enough to justify a change, to overcome the null hypothesis if you will, that the correct choice is always no change unless it can be shown that the change will be positive. Essentially, this promotes stability by basically placing a weight on the no change side. If we were assigning points to arguments, no change would always start off with a certain number of points, and if I'm interpreting papas argument correctly, the pro pw arguments don't earn enough "points" to overcome the points no change always starts with.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I feel like this is a mischaracterization of a lot of the thread that gets drowned out in this spoiler season specifically with "oh this and this planeswalker is broken" talk
People are only gonna come in and list off the P/Ws they think would be cool and create interesting deck archetypes once, arguments in the thread about what is or is not too strong can and probably will last forever, I have read a lot of cool posts in this thread about new archetypes that get spawned by both the existing walkers prior to WAR and some of then new ones.
And also as arrogantAxolotl said, peoples desires for picking a Commander are generally first I like this card and those reasons can be vast and varied even within the same card, then figuring out the deck comes second and if the deck is interesting or fun to play is third.
It feels very all of a sudden that so quickly every addition to the format has to be "worthwhile".
Ashiok isn't fun? Stax often leads to fun and interesting gameplay. Stax player tries operate under the lock and other players are trying break it or at least copy with it. I had one game where I had Mist of Stagnation and one opponent was ghost quartering and wastelanding his own lands in order to untap more permanents. Funny *****.
Sure sometimes game gets locked really fast and opponents can't do anything but that is really not any different from somebody who ramps into Zacama then just destroys everything or ramps into vannifar and then take infinite turns.
I would very much agree with this. I think that the changes made to the format by this would most certainly end up negative, but even if they were "neutral", then the correct course of action would be to leave things as-is, for the sake of format stability.
And as for individual playgroups? House rule away.
I disagree. I think that demand works just fine on the local level for house-ruling, but I do not think that "demand" should be factored in to a format-wide change.
Actually I find his static ability interesting, a lot of people were requesting such ability on a boros legend. Well, Dimir got it.
Not sure about your meta, but ramp is prevalent among my friend and this would stop it. Also, if you can't use Evolving Wilds and it was your only help in your hand to fix your landbase, you should take a muligan...
As for the positives and negatives, I think that any change brings both of them.
A lot of people talked about negatives of having PW's as generals, but most of them can be summed up in "banlist would increase", "it brings nothing new" or "seems broken".
Lot of people argued that once the PW get his ultimate and emblem, the game is over. How is it different from people comboing out, winning via mass LD, lockdown, exiling/discarding your hand or other ways? You can always start a new game.
The thing in question is how fast could the PW generals get to their "broken" ultimates when compared to regular generals.
And also testing should be done, playing with them, against them, casual and cuthroat decks, seeing if they are really that strong and broken as people claim or if it are only unjustified concerns.
Hey Taleran, this right here is an example of a disingenuous argument, for future reference.
So, Carthage, I see you are attempting at reductio ad absurdum, but failing miserably at it. The key difference here is that the rules of the format already allow newly printed cards to be allowed as commanders, so they are legal by default. They are, however, evaluated and banned if needed, like Leovold. Planeswalkers as commanders is not currently allowed by the rules unless they have special text allowing them. This means that allowing it necessarily has a higher bar to clear, as it is a change from the status quo. New cards being printed does not count, as in a collectible card game the printing of new cards, and their legality in all formats, is a built in feature of the status quo. It is the established and expected way in which the format grows that is accounted for in the rules. Allowing a new class of cards as commanders, unbanning cards, banning cards, allowing unsets permanently, those are changes to the status quo, and thus must pass a higher threshold when being considered for adoption. The same would be true, by the way, if the RC were to consider disallowing all pws as commanders including the ones with the rules text allowing them to be used as such. PW commanders were something they werent really backing, but they would have had to make a special rule preventing it as the basic rules of the game allow the "can be your commander" rules text to be employed and overrule the rules of the format (similar to ravenous rats).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
Narset can be good, but clearly not as good as Leovold. Not having access to black hinders her gameplan a lot, but wheels are still fairly common in blue. Also, walkers are weak to aggro-based strategies that can kill them without having to expend ressources that weren't already deployed for other purposes.
That point feels extremely weird as standard-legal sets are clearly not made with EDH in mind. Anyway... when it comes to power level, nothing beats OG Teferi don't you think? His game-winning combo is the easiest to get in the game since Blue has the highest concentration of card selection and artifact tutoring, and it wins on the spot. And he can generate incredible value in grindy games. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that no matter what the RC says more and more people will just play walkers as their commanders with WotC printing more and more interesting walkers like the last Bolas: after all, this format is a fan made format. Why wouldn't you play an elder dragon planeswalker in your elder dragon highlander game ? Especially as it does not create any kind of imbalance in the game...
[edit] feeling like I kinda misunderstood the context of the message and what Onering wanted to say... but the rest of my comment still stands on its own.
[re-edit] uhm, my point on Ashiok isn't that good now that I think about it since that's an unilateral effect. But I still think it isn't that powerful since Ashiok themselve isn't a combo tool nor a very powerful control tool.
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
It's perfectly logical. Legendary creatures are not made with commander in mind, and even the commanders in commander products lead to poor gameplay.
In the interest of format stability, we should clearly just lock the format with its current cards and carefully evaluate everyone's feelings on the new cards before allowing them in.
Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor are the only ones I'm aware of that are even creautres at all.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Daretti, Scrap Savant was interesting because his first two abilities could be built around. I would argue that almost all planeswalkers than can be played as commanders have sub-par ultimates and are really focused on the first two abilities.
So how many other planeswalkers would be interesting to build around?
I like playing planeswalkers in the 99, and I would not be a fan of having to ban a bunch of cards to enable very few new decks. So, please tell me what cards would be interesting new decks.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
There is nothing wrong with grindy games. I think most people end playing their silly 8+ card value engine combos and slowly take over the game.
Slow games? How so. If you can only untap one permanent, play one spell or draw no cards then your turns should be pretty quick. Sounds like a player error to me.
Games being miserable I just your personal preference. I personally find turn 3 emrakuls miserable but what do I know. I'm just some insane person.
Turn 3 Emrakul would potentially be miserable though I am not sure by how much since it is a one shot that takes your turn and then gives you a turn back. How much are they really doing to you on turn 3 to mess anything up?And then, after that, she is just a big beater. That is leagues different than stax. And, even if it was the same, bringing it up has no relevance to the current discussion. Unless your point is that "things already exist that are unfun for me; let's add things that are unfun for others". Which is ludicrous.