Brawl is a new format for FNM.
Its standard cards only.
Deck Size 60.
You may have a legendary creature or planeswalker as your commander.
Its multiplayer.
30 life for each player.
Now while it has been discussed at good length about it, the main thing to view it, as some have called it, "a bridge for new players" so as to wrap their heads around a commander-variant format without feeling as overwhelmed.
One of the key problems I notice is Commander itself. As lets say, hypothetically, brawl takes off. A new player really loved their Teferi, Hero of Dominaria Brawl deck and it has now rotated out. They look to Commander at first as a way to continue having fun with Teferi, but whether by misreading or not reading at all, they are told Teferi, Hero of Dominaria can't be a commander. So they might feel disenfranchised with Commander, even given the wrong impression, and stick with Brawl instead.
To remedy this and make the transition as smooth as possible for new players who were influenced by Brawl, planeswalkers would need to be commanders by default.
I do want to start off with my opinion that allowing Planeswalkers as Commanders in "normal" (Multiplayer) Commander probably has a fairly small impact to the format as a whole while allowing for a few more options during deck building. I have read a number of people's thoughts and, while my initial thought was that they would be problematic, I do not believe that is necessarily the case (though I suppose there is still the potential of that change causing a ban or two or "overpowered" planeswalkers).
Anyway, to the point at hand: Commander does not *need* to do anything and I think this alone being the deciding the factor in the multiplayer format changing sets a poor precedent. The RC has their vision for the format which is potentially always going to be at odds with Wizards' vision (see Wizards' initial attempt and consolidation the banlists online and the backlash that received).
I do agree that this can cause confusion when moving from Brawl to Commander, but there are other confusions as well, such as deck list size and life totals. I do not think this alone is enough for the RC to stand up and say "we better change our vision to fit in with Wizards format".
I think the inclusion of Planeswalkers as potential commanders for Brawl is strictly to try and engender some sort of added diversity in the format. Gatherer tells me there are currently 45 Legendary Creatures in Standard right now (which seems really high from a historical standpoint other then when Kamigawa Block was legal), so adding in the current 28 Standard-legal Planeswalkers gives you 73 potential decks; that's a 62% jump in the number of options.
I also think that from a WotC marketing perspective this makes a lot of sense given the status that Planeswalkers hold in the current storyline. It would be really weird to tell a new player that you get to have this really powerful Legendary creature as the commander of your deck, but the most powerful beings in the multiverse cannot be your commander. I'm fine with this in normal Commander because the format pre-dates Planeswalkers, but for an introductory format it makes sense flavor-wise. I think that by the time players make the jump from Brawl to Commander, they'll understand enough of the difference that losing out on Planeswalkers as commanders is no big deal given that you now have 750 Legends to choose from ("losing out" on 107 Planeswalkers at that point). I think that of all the transitions needed o make the jump, changing the commander of a deck from a Planeswalker to a Legendary creature is relatively minor
All in all, I see Brawl as a good thing. Despite the RC's best efforts, I sill feel that there is a bit of a "perceived barrier to entry" for some newer players who watch a commander game where players are slinging 20-year old cards that do really powerful things that their standard decks wouldn't be able to ever compete with. Brawl gives those players a somewhat level playing field to try their hand at building highlander decks with color identity and synergy with a commander in mind, so I see it as more of a way to get players to even try the format without having to dive headfirst into the deep end so to speak. I just hope that the format doesn't devolve into The Scarab God vs. anti-Scarab God and that it actually has some diversity to it (given that I doubt they have done any real Development with Brawl in mind), but we'll see.
I believe Doubling Season is the only card that would need to be banned right away to make Planeswalkers as commanders work. Skate is really, really good, but is a bit trickier to sequence and is probably OK in the same way that many two card combos are OK.
For the format itself, I'm excited to try it out. I'm a limited/commander player. My hope is that the power level here is lower enough that some silly cards can see play. Deck consistency should be way lower considering the lack of tutors and fast mana, but I have some concern it'd be quickly "solved" format with best decks that run rampant. I think The Scarab God is an early contender for best deck, but the lower power level of cards in standard means it'll likely be a little worse than it is in traditional EDH. Personally, I'm brewing an Approach of the Second Sun cycling u/w control deck led by Azor, the Lawbringer
i will not complain about planeswalkers being commanders. that doe snot bothe me. In terms of color combinations, the ones that benefits greatly from it are green (Doubling season) but the green ones don;t really win games with their ults (Some exceptions, but the best case would be Nissa Revane (Who cannot ult with doubling season the turn she is played) and Sarkhan Unbroken as both allow you to get a full army when they are played. (Might even make a Sarkhan dragon battlecuiser if they allow PWs to be commanders.
But that is truth is where the problem lies. Will the RC allow PW to be generals? The community (Overall) has no issue. But right now you still have to ask each person after the other. If one person says no, well then you are stuck. (Or have a backup plan, one guy i played had a deck that could run 8 different commanders. It was mono-blue and each one help the deck differently. (wish i had the list, it was cool as he would just grab the first general he could find when rifling through his deck and then shuffle up.
I believe Doubling Season is the only card that would need to be banned right away to make Planeswalkers as commanders work. Skate is really, really good, but is a bit trickier to sequence and is probably OK in the same way that many two card combos are OK.
For the format itself, I'm excited to try it out. I'm a limited/commander player. My hope is that the power level here is lower enough that some silly cards can see play. Deck consistency should be way lower considering the lack of tutors and fast mana, but I have some concern it'd be quickly "solved" format with best decks that run rampant. I think The Scarab God is an early contender for best deck, but the lower power level of cards in standard means it'll likely be a little worse than it is in traditional EDH. Personally, I'm brewing an Approach of the Second Sun cycling u/w control deck led by Azor, the Lawbringer
I disagree about season. In my post above i stated that really one general really wins you a game with it in play.
I think the inclusion of Planeswalkers as potential commanders for Brawl is strictly to try and engender some sort of added diversity in the format. Gatherer tells me there are currently 45 Legendary Creatures in Standard right now (which seems really high from a historical standpoint other then when Kamigawa Block was legal), so adding in the current 28 Standard-legal Planeswalkers gives you 73 potential decks; that's a 62% jump in the number of options.
That actually seems pretty average for the last several years. I had to go back to when it was just Theros block, Magic 2015, and Khans of Tarkir to get a number of legendary creatures less than 40, and even then it was 37 creatures. The next smallest was Khans block, Magic Origins, and Battle for Zendikar, which had 40.
Edit: Return to Ravnica block + Magic 2014 + Theros set has just 33 legendary creatures. So you can go back about five years to start getting numbers in the low thirties or less.
I think the inclusion of Planeswalkers as potential commanders for Brawl is strictly to try and engender some sort of added diversity in the format. Gatherer tells me there are currently 45 Legendary Creatures in Standard right now (which seems really high from a historical standpoint other then when Kamigawa Block was legal), so adding in the current 28 Standard-legal Planeswalkers gives you 73 potential decks; that's a 62% jump in the number of options.
That actually seems pretty average for the last several years. I had to go back to when it was just Theros block, Magic 2015, and Khans of Tarkir to get a number of legendary creatures less than 40, and even then it was 37 creatures. The next smallest was Khans block, Magic Origins, and Battle for Zendikar, which had 40.
Edit: Return to Ravnica block + Magic 2014 + Theros set has just 33 legendary creatures. So you can go back about five years to start getting numbers in the low thirties or less.
That kind of roughly coincides with when commander started taking off. A bit behind, but then they're always designing for sets years down the pipeline.
I believe Doubling Season is the only card that would need to be banned right away to make Planeswalkers as commanders work. Skate is really, really good, but is a bit trickier to sequence and is probably OK in the same way that many two card combos are OK.
For the format itself, I'm excited to try it out. I'm a limited/commander player. My hope is that the power level here is lower enough that some silly cards can see play. Deck consistency should be way lower considering the lack of tutors and fast mana, but I have some concern it'd be quickly "solved" format with best decks that run rampant. I think The Scarab God is an early contender for best deck, but the lower power level of cards in standard means it'll likely be a little worse than it is in traditional EDH. Personally, I'm brewing an Approach of the Second Sun cycling u/w control deck led by Azor, the Lawbringer
I disagree about season. In my post above i stated that really one general really wins you a game with it in play.
EDIT: forgot about New vraska and Newest Tamiyo.
Garruk, Primal Hunter would like a word with you. At least 10 but probably more 6/6 wurms is nothing to sneeze at.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Brawl feels like Commander-Lite with a miniscule card pool and forced rotation. I really dislike it. They don't have enough cards for varied mono-color decks, they don't have enough mana-fixing to support multi-colored decks, they don't have Wastes to support colorless, and entire color combos lack support or could be forced to rotate out of the format at some point.
Will the RC allow PW to be generals? The community (Overall) has no issue. But right now you still have to ask each person after the other. If one person says no, well then you are stuck.
There have already been polls that prove this wrong. The overall community does have an issue with planeswalkers as commander. I just checked the poll, and it stands at 63.6% against, 5.8% neutral, and only 30.6% in favor of planeswalkers as commanders. That's less than a third for. If Wizards wants them in Brawl, fine. But in Commander, it would cause problems, and they'd probably have to ban a few.
I personally only am against planeswalkers as commanders if Doubling Season is allowed to remain unbanned. There are healthier and cheaper alternatives than DS for the format like Primal Vigor, Parallel Lives, or Hardened Scales based on the deck.
Will the RC allow PW to be generals? The community (Overall) has no issue. But right now you still have to ask each person after the other. If one person says no, well then you are stuck.
There have already been polls that prove this wrong. The overall community does have an issue with planeswalkers as commander. I just checked the poll, and it stands at 63.6% against, 5.8% neutral, and only 30.6% in favor of planeswalkers as commanders. That's less than a third for. If Wizards wants them in Brawl, fine. But in Commander, it would cause problems, and they'd probably have to ban a few.
I can't buy this. I looked at the same poll as well. 37Y, 77N, 8U. That (122 votes) is far too minuscule of a number when gathering statistics. The only that is an accurate poll that represents the "overall community" is if that is all the players in the world for commander, which makes me wonder how a game of commander even fires regularly with such a tiny player base. Also why would Wizards bother with catering so much to only 122 players? As this doesn't reflect a profitable format that became a mainstay.
Will the RC allow PW to be generals? The community (Overall) has no issue. But right now you still have to ask each person after the other. If one person says no, well then you are stuck.
There have already been polls that prove this wrong. The overall community does have an issue with planeswalkers as commander. I just checked the poll, and it stands at 63.6% against, 5.8% neutral, and only 30.6% in favor of planeswalkers as commanders. That's less than a third for. If Wizards wants them in Brawl, fine. But in Commander, it would cause problems, and they'd probably have to ban a few.
I can't buy this. I looked at the same poll as well. 37Y, 77N, 8U. That (122 votes) is far too minuscule of a number when gathering statistics. The only that is an accurate poll that represents the "overall community" is if that is all the players in the world for commander, which makes me wonder how a game of commander even fires regularly with such a tiny player base. Also why would Wizards bother with catering so much to only 122 players? As this doesn't reflect a profitable format that became a mainstay.
Any poll is merely representation and has a margin of error because you can't poll every single player. However, can you show any poll that would indicate this sample does not represent the overall community? And just how big a margin of error do you objectively think this poll has? Without saying "it disagrees with me, so it's wrong," can you show that there would be a complete reversal of results by sampling a larger group?
Will the RC allow PW to be generals? The community (Overall) has no issue. But right now you still have to ask each person after the other. If one person says no, well then you are stuck.
There have already been polls that prove this wrong. The overall community does have an issue with planeswalkers as commander. I just checked the poll, and it stands at 63.6% against, 5.8% neutral, and only 30.6% in favor of planeswalkers as commanders. That's less than a third for. If Wizards wants them in Brawl, fine. But in Commander, it would cause problems, and they'd probably have to ban a few.
I can't buy this. I looked at the same poll as well. 37Y, 77N, 8U. That (122 votes) is far too minuscule of a number when gathering statistics. The only that is an accurate poll that represents the "overall community" is if that is all the players in the world for commander, which makes me wonder how a game of commander even fires regularly with such a tiny player base. Also why would Wizards bother with catering so much to only 122 players? As this doesn't reflect a profitable format that became a mainstay.
Any poll is merely representation and has a margin of error because you can't poll every single player. However, can you show any poll that would indicate this sample does not represent the overall community? And just how big a margin of error do you objectively think this poll has? Without saying "it disagrees with me, so it's wrong," can you show that there would be a complete reversal of results by sampling a larger group?
That poll is not sufficient, polls need to be done frequently on the same subject matter to actually understand what people think. Only doing one poll is frankly not enough data in the real world. All this poll shows is the people who frequent MTGS Commander (Rules Discussion) would have seen this poll. Its not because "it doesn't agree with me, so its wrong" its blatant statistical bias from a subgroup that doesn't want to see planeswalkers as commanders. Like if WOTC did this same poll, you think the results would be close to the same when on a larger scale?
Like if WOTC did this same poll, you think the results would be the exact same when on a larger scale?
Exact same? No. Similar? Yes. I think at least half of the Commander community is opposed to using planeswalkers as commanders. You really want Sorin Markov in the command zone? We'd either get broken things or banned things, and neither makes me happy. I know I am just a part of the community, but most people I interact with (and I've been playing EDH/Commander for almost ten years) don't want planeswalkers as commanders.
Without saying "it disagrees with me, so it's wrong," can you show that there would be a complete reversal of results by sampling a larger group?
Well for starters, your poll you wish to cite lacks proper visibility. Do it again on a more visible platform like a social media website from a user/company that would give it the most attention. If it comes out the same or similar result, then you were correct in your statement.
EDIT: For example why not let Josh Lee Kwai set up a poll on his twitter with the question of "Should planeswalkers be commanders?". As he has 15.2k followers and is one of the main faces for Command Zone. That is a much more reasonable size to poll.
EDIT 2: 122 people is also far too small of a number for a community with thousands of players. It is at best anecdotal, like if I polled 4 people out of a possible 100 in a building.
EDIT 2: 122 people is also far too small of a number for a community with thousands of players. It is at best anecdotal, like if I polled 4 people out of a possible 100 in a building.
If your study looks at multiple buildings in a city you don't really need more than 4 people in each building you sample, and you aren't sampling every building either.
Anyways, no online survey is representative of anything due to a variety of factors. There's pretty much no way to get perfectly accurate results of what people in EDH care about because even if WotC included a little survey in each EDH product: 1) not everyone will buy the product, 2) not everyone who buys it will send it back; so that will create a skew towards the type of player who does buy the product and does send back the survey.
But honestly, with the amount of people who look at this sites EDH Subforums and that 4,748 people looked at the thread and didn't feel strongly enough about the results as to add more votes, it's a pretty good assumption that most people either agree with the current results on the poll or don't care about it. And if most people really neither want them nor care one way or the other then what's the point of changing the rules?
Also, while adding PWs as commanders *might* be fun, with no BaaC list the normal banlist will just get longer because of certain PWs being banned (either current ones or future printings) even though they're perfectly fine within the other 99, and that's not a great thing.
But honestly, with the amount of people who look at this sites EDH Subforums and that 4,748 people looked at the thread and didn't feel strongly enough about the results as to add more votes, it's a pretty good assumption that most people either agree with the current results on the poll or don't care about it. And if most people really neither want them nor care one way or the other then what's the point of changing the rules?
Lets say the 4,784 were from one user each and not the same users viewing it multiple times, yes? 122 votes equates to 2.57% of the 4,784 who bothered to vote. If a 1000 users voted instead of 122, at least you would have 21.06% of the votes from each of the 4,784.
So when Sam_Eldrestein noted that the 4:100 for a theoretical poll would be considered anecdotal, shes being correct in the matter. When polls are done regarding laws or medicine for instance, a number like 122:4784 is the equivalent of saying "I knew a guy of my friend who said..."
The fact of the matter in saying that "most don't care" is referring to the silent majority. The vocal minority, which is what is happening in that poll, is the ones who are like "we don't want planeswalkers as commanders". This vocal minority is composed of 77 users. To put this in perspective, make up 1.71% of the community that is of the theoretical 4,784. Which is the equivalent of the 1% vocal minority making decisions for the 99% silent majority while claiming they are the "overall community".
The poll itself does in fact lack proper visibility as Sam_Eldristein put it. Its on a non-official forum, in a subthread about a single format, in a subsection regarding rules for that one format. This entire website is composed of 365,674 users as of the time of writing this. Meaning that only 1.31% of the 365,674 users saw this thread. Where the 77 who were against this are the equivalent of 0.02% of the users here.
I see that more as the player needs to adapt to a new format. The deck probably works well with an available commander. You cant just port Standard decks that rotate out to Modern, you have to adapt (Albeit for other reasons), or get a group to houserule you.
I can't buy this. I looked at the same poll as well. 37Y, 77N, 8U. That (122 votes) is far too minuscule of a number when gathering statistics. The only that is an accurate poll that represents the "overall community" is if that is all the players in the world for commander, which makes me wonder how a game of commander even fires regularly with such a tiny player base. Also why would Wizards bother with catering so much to only 122 players? As this doesn't reflect a profitable format that became a mainstay.
You cant claim a statistic you cant back up, then dismiss the only available statistic. Check the main EDH forums, its mostly against as well.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I can't buy this. I looked at the same poll as well. 37Y, 77N, 8U. That (122 votes) is far too minuscule of a number when gathering statistics. The only that is an accurate poll that represents the "overall community" is if that is all the players in the world for commander, which makes me wonder how a game of commander even fires regularly with such a tiny player base. Also why would Wizards bother with catering so much to only 122 players? As this doesn't reflect a profitable format that became a mainstay.
You cant claim a statistic you cant back up, then dismiss the only available statistic. Check the main EDH forums, its mostly against as well.
I didn't make up a statistic regarding that poll of "37Y, 77N, 8U" I posted the results of the statistic from that thread that FunkyDragon mentioned, so yes I can back it up. Also yes I can dismiss it, its one single poll that polled the equivalent of 1% of the commander player base.
I didn't make up a statistic regarding that poll of "37Y, 77N, 8U" I posted the results of the statistic from that thread that FunkyDragon mentioned, so yes I can back it up. Also yes I can dismiss it, its one single poll that polled the equivalent of 1% of the commander player base.
My mistake, I though you had said "The community (Overall) has no issue", but I misread the quote.
No poll is going to be definitive. Claiming bias ("its blatant statistical bias from a subgroup that doesn't want to see planeswalkers as commanders") does not mean the majority of players don't agree. I see where you are coming from, but even a poll of 10,000 is going to be a small subset of any commander group. And the ones listening to Podcasts or engaging on Social Media are giong to be a biased group anyway.
Add on top of that this isnt even close to a democracy, and what is a 'better poll' going to accomplish?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I didn't make up a statistic regarding that poll of "37Y, 77N, 8U" I posted the results of the statistic from that thread that FunkyDragon mentioned, so yes I can back it up. Also yes I can dismiss it, its one single poll that polled the equivalent of 1% of the commander player base.
My mistake, I though you had said "The community (Overall) has no issue", but I misread the quote.
That is alright, everyone misreads something sometimes, even myself.
No poll is going to be definitive. Claiming bias ("its blatant statistical bias from a subgroup that doesn't want to see planeswalkers as commanders") does not mean the majority of players don't agree. I see where you are coming from, but even a poll of 10,000 is going to be a small subset of any commander group. And the ones listening to Podcasts or engaging on Social Media are going to be a biased group anyway.
I agree it would still be small and it can't be definitive, but one of 10,000 would appear much more credible than a poll of 122.
Add on top of that this isnt even close to a democracy, and what is a 'better poll' going to accomplish?
A better view of people's thoughts on the matter.
If the results are still close to the original result, then it simply proves on a larger scale that people didn't want planeswalkers as commanders. If the results are more like a coin toss if its close to 50/50, then it shows it may not be as clear cut and dry on what the community wants. If the results are vastly more in favor of planeswalkers as commanders, then it shows what people actually wanted than what was originally perceived.
Imagine if you will there were two men in the middle of two separate open plains that had obstructions. The first man stands on a rock that is 5 feet tall, the second man standing on a 100 foot tall rock. Which would have a better view of his surroundings?
If the results are still close to the original result, then it simply proves on a larger scale that people didn't want planeswalkers as commanders. If the results are more like a coin toss if its close to 50/50, then it shows it may not be as clear cut and dry on what the community wants. If the results are vastly more in favor of planeswalkers as commanders, then it shows what people actually wanted than what was originally perceived.
You claimed bias in the original poll. Thats a lot different than you want more participants.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Like if WOTC did this same poll, you think the results would be the exact same when on a larger scale?
Exact same? No. Similar? Yes. I think at least half of the Commander community is opposed to using planeswalkers as commanders. You really want Sorin Markov in the command zone? We'd either get broken things or banned things, and neither makes me happy. I know I am just a part of the community, but most people I interact with (and I've been playing EDH/Commander for almost ten years) don't want planeswalkers as commanders.
Its standard cards only.
Deck Size 60.
You may have a legendary creature or planeswalker as your commander.
Its multiplayer.
30 life for each player.
Now while it has been discussed at good length about it, the main thing to view it, as some have called it, "a bridge for new players" so as to wrap their heads around a commander-variant format without feeling as overwhelmed.
One of the key problems I notice is Commander itself. As lets say, hypothetically, brawl takes off. A new player really loved their Teferi, Hero of Dominaria Brawl deck and it has now rotated out. They look to Commander at first as a way to continue having fun with Teferi, but whether by misreading or not reading at all, they are told Teferi, Hero of Dominaria can't be a commander. So they might feel disenfranchised with Commander, even given the wrong impression, and stick with Brawl instead.
To remedy this and make the transition as smooth as possible for new players who were influenced by Brawl, planeswalkers would need to be commanders by default.
TL;DR: Commander would need to adapt.
Anyway, to the point at hand: Commander does not *need* to do anything and I think this alone being the deciding the factor in the multiplayer format changing sets a poor precedent. The RC has their vision for the format which is potentially always going to be at odds with Wizards' vision (see Wizards' initial attempt and consolidation the banlists online and the backlash that received).
I do agree that this can cause confusion when moving from Brawl to Commander, but there are other confusions as well, such as deck list size and life totals. I do not think this alone is enough for the RC to stand up and say "we better change our vision to fit in with Wizards format".
TL;DR: No they don't.
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I also think that from a WotC marketing perspective this makes a lot of sense given the status that Planeswalkers hold in the current storyline. It would be really weird to tell a new player that you get to have this really powerful Legendary creature as the commander of your deck, but the most powerful beings in the multiverse cannot be your commander. I'm fine with this in normal Commander because the format pre-dates Planeswalkers, but for an introductory format it makes sense flavor-wise. I think that by the time players make the jump from Brawl to Commander, they'll understand enough of the difference that losing out on Planeswalkers as commanders is no big deal given that you now have 750 Legends to choose from ("losing out" on 107 Planeswalkers at that point). I think that of all the transitions needed o make the jump, changing the commander of a deck from a Planeswalker to a Legendary creature is relatively minor
All in all, I see Brawl as a good thing. Despite the RC's best efforts, I sill feel that there is a bit of a "perceived barrier to entry" for some newer players who watch a commander game where players are slinging 20-year old cards that do really powerful things that their standard decks wouldn't be able to ever compete with. Brawl gives those players a somewhat level playing field to try their hand at building highlander decks with color identity and synergy with a commander in mind, so I see it as more of a way to get players to even try the format without having to dive headfirst into the deep end so to speak. I just hope that the format doesn't devolve into The Scarab God vs. anti-Scarab God and that it actually has some diversity to it (given that I doubt they have done any real Development with Brawl in mind), but we'll see.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
For the format itself, I'm excited to try it out. I'm a limited/commander player. My hope is that the power level here is lower enough that some silly cards can see play. Deck consistency should be way lower considering the lack of tutors and fast mana, but I have some concern it'd be quickly "solved" format with best decks that run rampant. I think The Scarab God is an early contender for best deck, but the lower power level of cards in standard means it'll likely be a little worse than it is in traditional EDH. Personally, I'm brewing an Approach of the Second Sun cycling u/w control deck led by Azor, the Lawbringer
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
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But that is truth is where the problem lies. Will the RC allow PW to be generals? The community (Overall) has no issue. But right now you still have to ask each person after the other. If one person says no, well then you are stuck. (Or have a backup plan, one guy i played had a deck that could run 8 different commanders. It was mono-blue and each one help the deck differently. (wish i had the list, it was cool as he would just grab the first general he could find when rifling through his deck and then shuffle up.
EDIT: forgot about New vraska and Newest Tamiyo.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I disagree about season. In my post above i stated that really one general really wins you a game with it in play.
EDIT: forgot about New vraska and Newest Tamiyo.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
That actually seems pretty average for the last several years. I had to go back to when it was just Theros block, Magic 2015, and Khans of Tarkir to get a number of legendary creatures less than 40, and even then it was 37 creatures. The next smallest was Khans block, Magic Origins, and Battle for Zendikar, which had 40.
Edit: Return to Ravnica block + Magic 2014 + Theros set has just 33 legendary creatures. So you can go back about five years to start getting numbers in the low thirties or less.
Makes sense.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Garruk, Primal Hunter would like a word with you. At least 10 but probably more 6/6 wurms is nothing to sneeze at.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
There have already been polls that prove this wrong. The overall community does have an issue with planeswalkers as commander. I just checked the poll, and it stands at 63.6% against, 5.8% neutral, and only 30.6% in favor of planeswalkers as commanders. That's less than a third for. If Wizards wants them in Brawl, fine. But in Commander, it would cause problems, and they'd probably have to ban a few.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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I can't buy this. I looked at the same poll as well. 37Y, 77N, 8U. That (122 votes) is far too minuscule of a number when gathering statistics. The only that is an accurate poll that represents the "overall community" is if that is all the players in the world for commander, which makes me wonder how a game of commander even fires regularly with such a tiny player base. Also why would Wizards bother with catering so much to only 122 players? As this doesn't reflect a profitable format that became a mainstay.
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EDIT: For example why not let Josh Lee Kwai set up a poll on his twitter with the question of "Should planeswalkers be commanders?". As he has 15.2k followers and is one of the main faces for Command Zone. That is a much more reasonable size to poll.
EDIT 2: 122 people is also far too small of a number for a community with thousands of players. It is at best anecdotal, like if I polled 4 people out of a possible 100 in a building.
If your study looks at multiple buildings in a city you don't really need more than 4 people in each building you sample, and you aren't sampling every building either.
Anyways, no online survey is representative of anything due to a variety of factors. There's pretty much no way to get perfectly accurate results of what people in EDH care about because even if WotC included a little survey in each EDH product: 1) not everyone will buy the product, 2) not everyone who buys it will send it back; so that will create a skew towards the type of player who does buy the product and does send back the survey.
But honestly, with the amount of people who look at this sites EDH Subforums and that 4,748 people looked at the thread and didn't feel strongly enough about the results as to add more votes, it's a pretty good assumption that most people either agree with the current results on the poll or don't care about it. And if most people really neither want them nor care one way or the other then what's the point of changing the rules?
Also, while adding PWs as commanders *might* be fun, with no BaaC list the normal banlist will just get longer because of certain PWs being banned (either current ones or future printings) even though they're perfectly fine within the other 99, and that's not a great thing.
So when Sam_Eldrestein noted that the 4:100 for a theoretical poll would be considered anecdotal, shes being correct in the matter. When polls are done regarding laws or medicine for instance, a number like 122:4784 is the equivalent of saying "I knew a guy of my friend who said..."
The fact of the matter in saying that "most don't care" is referring to the silent majority. The vocal minority, which is what is happening in that poll, is the ones who are like "we don't want planeswalkers as commanders". This vocal minority is composed of 77 users. To put this in perspective, make up 1.71% of the community that is of the theoretical 4,784. Which is the equivalent of the 1% vocal minority making decisions for the 99% silent majority while claiming they are the "overall community".
The poll itself does in fact lack proper visibility as Sam_Eldristein put it. Its on a non-official forum, in a subthread about a single format, in a subsection regarding rules for that one format. This entire website is composed of 365,674 users as of the time of writing this. Meaning that only 1.31% of the 365,674 users saw this thread. Where the 77 who were against this are the equivalent of 0.02% of the users here.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
You cant claim a statistic you cant back up, then dismiss the only available statistic. Check the main EDH forums, its mostly against as well.
No poll is going to be definitive. Claiming bias ("its blatant statistical bias from a subgroup that doesn't want to see planeswalkers as commanders") does not mean the majority of players don't agree. I see where you are coming from, but even a poll of 10,000 is going to be a small subset of any commander group. And the ones listening to Podcasts or engaging on Social Media are giong to be a biased group anyway.
Add on top of that this isnt even close to a democracy, and what is a 'better poll' going to accomplish?
I agree it would still be small and it can't be definitive, but one of 10,000 would appear much more credible than a poll of 122.
A better view of people's thoughts on the matter.
If the results are still close to the original result, then it simply proves on a larger scale that people didn't want planeswalkers as commanders. If the results are more like a coin toss if its close to 50/50, then it shows it may not be as clear cut and dry on what the community wants. If the results are vastly more in favor of planeswalkers as commanders, then it shows what people actually wanted than what was originally perceived.
Imagine if you will there were two men in the middle of two separate open plains that had obstructions. The first man stands on a rock that is 5 feet tall, the second man standing on a 100 foot tall rock. Which would have a better view of his surroundings?
I'd rather see Sorin in the command zone than something like Sidisi, Undead Vizier.
Honestly people are overestimating the power level of planeswalkers