Seems way, way, WAY too easy to plunk down 20 counters (esp with proliferate), and unlike other "get X things and win", there's only one thing you can really target to stop it.
Too easy goal + too few interaction opportunities = banlist
I wouldn't hold my breath. This at first glance doesn't appear to be any easier than Felidar Soverign, the easiest path to victory being Avenger of Zendikar and a fetch land or two. However, that still takes a couple of turns, or a dominant board state or a game that's been going on for a while. All of which, I don't feel make for a win-the-game scenario that the RC should be policing. If anything, this is just another win more card in Simic's increasingly obnoxious arsenal of +1/+1 counter strategy (I'm looking at you Ezuri).
Well i think the card is cool but i don't think thats broken because it needs an engine where you makw giants creatures, wich you can sue them to kill others instead.
As alt win conditions go, this one does seem a little easy to achieve, especially if you factor in things like Doubling Season. I don't really see it a more problematic than, say, running a lifegain deck and flashing in Felidar Sovereign, though. It will quickly get as boring as any other easy combo (Kiki/Conscripts, Mike/Trike, etc.) and probably still not be good enough to fit into truly competitive decks.
My first instinct is that you are joking, but I will bite.
It's not just "plunk down 20 counters", it is plunk down 20 counters and wait for your upkeep.
20 counters is also a lot. Without a doubling effect it is very unlikely to happen quickly. If you are talking 2-3 turns to win with this, it is a slow win condition that will rarely win.
I am also unsure what you mean by "there's only one thing you can really target to stop it"... like, Laboratory Maniac is not banned, right? I realize that red and black will have a tough time with destroying the enchantment, but that isn't new.
I think I will want it in my Reyhan, last of the abzan and Ishai, ojutai dragonspeaker deck. I think I will win some games with it... but I also expect people to see it coming from a mile away and do what they can to disrupt it.
It is also a risk to play it. It does nothing by itself.
To the OP, what specifically are the ways in which you think it will be too easy to win off this that are significantly different than other ways to win the game?
I'd say its something to keep an eye on. Its not going to go nuts in just any deck, but it can go nuts with just a little help, and R/B don't have much in the way of answers. Its got potential to be a problem, but its not clear that it will be. Usually such cards don't actually end up being a ban worthy problem, or even a problem at all. If it becomes trivially easy to just cast this and win in a couple turns off of what your deck is already doing, without any combos, then yeah, maybe, but if that's only going to be in a dedicated +1/+1 counter deck, that's probably fine. If it starts getting people in U/G to specifically start adding proliferate and +1/+1 counters to abuse it, that's a different story, but I don't see that happening.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I mean, I see myself having an easier time casting Approach of the Second Sun twice or plopping down Paradox Engine and winning on the spot than winning with this. You have to assume that permanent-based alternate wincons are even going to stay on the battlefield and not be removed before they trigger after meeting their conditions on your next upkeep, and that all of your opponents at the table are just going to ignore it or be completely unaware of the state of the game and how close you are to winning with it. You have to assume you're going to draw into or find Simic Ascendancy in colors that don't tutor for Enchantments unless you're running it in Bant or Atraxa, and outside of some bizarre off-the-wall build, there aren't really any Bant decks I see forcing this.
Thing is, even when you find it, you have to have a certain board presence with enablers intact in a small niche of decks. Outside of fringe cases this will most of the time be winning in the mid to late game at a point where ending the game is fine and the table should have a keen eye on everyone's board states for combos and other shenanigans to appear. The easiest way to win with it is obviously Ezuri, Claw of Progress, but frankly if you're getting to a point where you can win off of this then the Ezuri player was probably going to win another way somehow soon, because Ezuri was left on the table for too long or that player was just left to run amok. If you're playing against the one deck that can really abuse this, you should probably already be aware of cards that can win out of nowhere with Ezuri on the board and non-significant number of Experience counters accumulated. A better way to put it is to just say that I haven't heard anyone demand Sage of Hours be banned, and it's easier to tutor up with Ezuri and win with, being that it doesn't require you to wait for your next upkeep and takes significantly less build up. Why don't people ask for it to be banned? Because like Simic Ascendancy, Sage of Hours is as effective as it is in a very, very small niche and already demands two colors, cornering it into the decks we know will play it and it narrows the scope of concern for that reason alone.
For the interaction between Doubling Season and Simic Ascendancy, it works about as well as any other counter-based card with Doubling Season and is no surprise. If you manage to make infinite mana to pump into it, that's not even an argument for why it should be banned because at that point you could win any other number of ways and no one is complaining about Helix Pinnacle.
The fact that you have to find Simic Ascendancy, put it on the battlefield, protect it, play enough Proliferate or other effects to build the counters up and have it survive with those 20 counters until your next upkeep is telling that it needs enough work put into it that it is fine and not worthy of talk about being banned. The biggest danger is Ezuri and Atraxa, which if your group is leaving Ezuri, Claw of Progress or Atraxa, Praetors' Voice on the battlefield long enough for this to be a danger when it comes down, your group needs to have a talk about threat assessment and removal in those decks. Even if non-Ezuri/Atraxa decks in Simmic start running more Proliferate effects to help achieve this, that means they're sacrificing other ways that their decks could run better to force this, because very few Proliferate effects are worth it outside of dedicated decks. But, with the prerequisite of playing Simic, I don't expect that to happen much.
I've mostly focused on discussing Ezuri and Atraxa here, because the fact that you're cornered into playing Simic to even play this very much narrows the decks it will see play in, and these two are the most likely and any other appearances are going to be, again, extremely fringe cases. Frankly, Prime Speaker Vannifar and and having Birthing Pod Chains right out of the Command Zone worries me more than this, and that's not saying much because of how fragile Vannifar is.
unlike other "get X things and win", there's only one thing you can really target to stop it.
(Legal) Alternate wincon cards, and ways to stop them:
Approach of the Second Sun: Mill/exile cards from the top of the library after the first cast, force the opponent to shuffle after the first cast (rare effect, and only a temporary solution)
Azor's Elocutors: Deal damage to their controller (only a temporary solution), creature removal
Barren Glory: Enchantment removal (though at least the controller will have no resources to stop you)
Battle of Wits: Enchantment removal (though it requires the group to allow something like an unlimited size sideboard to meet the requirement)
Biovisionary: Creature removal (only temporary, short of a board wipe)
Darksteel Reactor: Artifact removal, and "destroy" doesn't work (note also that this is a state-based trigger not an upkeep trigger, so you can't simply wait until the counter-accumulation is complete)
(Legal) Alternate wincon cards, and ways to stop them:
Approach of the Second Sun: Mill/exile cards from the top of the library after the first cast, force the opponent to shuffle after the first cast (rare effect, and only a temporary solution)
Azor's Elocutors: Deal damage to their controller (only a temporary solution), creature removal
Barren Glory: Enchantment removal (though at least the controller will have no resources to stop you)
Battle of Wits: Enchantment removal (though it requires the group to allow something like an unlimited size sideboard to meet the requirement)
Biovisionary: Creature removal (only temporary, short of a board wipe)
Darksteel Reactor: Artifact removal, and "destroy" doesn't work (note also that this is a state-based trigger not an upkeep trigger, so you can't simply wait until the counter-accumulation is complete)
I likewise don't think Simic Ascendancy will be a problem. The card is slow to build up and its trigger to win requires it to live until your upkeep trigger. Its a narrow two color combination and its a noncreature in green. Its going to be hard to tutor it, it will usually be slow to get the counters on it, and it still waits until the next turn to try to win.
I would say this is probably less threatening than Felidar Sovereign in that that card probably takes less work to win and it can do it sooner on average with less build around. 2/10 would be my assessment of the card without having actually seen it played.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The card is a newborn. The best thing to do is to give it time and see if and how people play it in games first. We can't know for certain one way or another until we get some actual data from actual game play anyway. Give this thread some time and then we can revisit the issue if the card really does prove itself to be a significant problem.
The card is a newborn. The best thing to do is to give it time and see if and how people play it in games first. We can't know for certain one way or another until we get some actual data from actual game play anyway. Give this thread some time and then we can revisit the issue if the card really does prove itself to be a significant problem.
I think some seasoned players have noted new cards that were not long for this world, and were right on. Grizzlebees and worldfire being the obvious.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
unlike other "get X things and win", there's only one thing you can really target to stop it.
(Legal) Alternate wincon cards, and ways to stop them:
Approach of the Second Sun: Mill/exile cards from the top of the library after the first cast, force the opponent to shuffle after the first cast (rare effect, and only a temporary solution)
Azor's Elocutors: Deal damage to their controller (only a temporary solution), creature removal
Barren Glory: Enchantment removal (though at least the controller will have no resources to stop you)
Battle of Wits: Enchantment removal (though it requires the group to allow something like an unlimited size sideboard to meet the requirement)
Biovisionary: Creature removal (only temporary, short of a board wipe)
Darksteel Reactor: Artifact removal, and "destroy" doesn't work (note also that this is a state-based trigger not an upkeep trigger, so you can't simply wait until the counter-accumulation is complete)
Revel in Riches: Enchantment removal, artifact removal (only temporary)
Test of Endurance: Enchantment removal, damage the player (only temporary)
Of course, countermagic also works on everything, because blue is the fair color.
Truly, blue is the real hero of magic. Blue is that friend that's always shooting down your *****ty drunk plans. It always pisses you off but then one night you party without him and boom, you're spending the night in jail because you stole a giant American flag from a used car dealer, and who's that bailing you and your other buddies out and taking you to IHOP? Blue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Usually alt win conditions are mediocre and niche in Commander, so any time one is remotely playable it draws questions. I think Ascendancy is fine; Felidar Sovereign, Approach of the Second Sun, and Test of Endurance are all legal, all playable in more decks (color-identity wise), all generally easier to trigger, and all non-oppressive. Approach is also much harder to interact with. Nevermind Revel in Riches and Laboratory Maniac, the actual best alt win cons in the format.
Simic Ascendancy is a much faster but much more fragile Darksteel Reactor/Helix Pinnacle. I expect it to see some play in Atraxa and Pir and Toothy. And in those decks it may win some games but I'd wager it's almost always a "win-more"; if a player was in a position to dump 20 counters onto their permanents they prooooooobbbbably were going to win anyways, they just won a turn or two sooner with Ascendancy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Something to keep in mind is that Doubling Season quadruples your counters. Putting 5 +1/+1 counters on a creature while Doubling Season is out means 20 growth counters for Simic Ascendancy.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Seems way, way, WAY too easy to plunk down 20 counters (esp with proliferate), and unlike other "get X things and win", there's only one thing you can really target to stop it.
Too easy goal + too few interaction opportunities = banlist
I wouldn't hold my breath. This at first glance doesn't appear to be any easier than Felidar Soverign, the easiest path to victory being Avenger of Zendikar and a fetch land or two. However, that still takes a couple of turns, or a dominant board state or a game that's been going on for a while. All of which, I don't feel make for a win-the-game scenario that the RC should be policing. If anything, this is just another win more card in Simic's increasingly obnoxious arsenal of +1/+1 counter strategy (I'm looking at you Ezuri).
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
It's not just "plunk down 20 counters", it is plunk down 20 counters and wait for your upkeep.
20 counters is also a lot. Without a doubling effect it is very unlikely to happen quickly. If you are talking 2-3 turns to win with this, it is a slow win condition that will rarely win.
I am also unsure what you mean by "there's only one thing you can really target to stop it"... like, Laboratory Maniac is not banned, right? I realize that red and black will have a tough time with destroying the enchantment, but that isn't new.
I think I will want it in my Reyhan, last of the abzan and Ishai, ojutai dragonspeaker deck. I think I will win some games with it... but I also expect people to see it coming from a mile away and do what they can to disrupt it.
It is also a risk to play it. It does nothing by itself.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
The mana it costs to cast this is not quite as important as the mana (and other resources) it takes to achieve 20 counters on it.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
And with both green and blue being very proliferate heavy,it's a bit too easy...just get one counter and then go nuts
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Or perhaps Solemnity!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Thing is, even when you find it, you have to have a certain board presence with enablers intact in a small niche of decks. Outside of fringe cases this will most of the time be winning in the mid to late game at a point where ending the game is fine and the table should have a keen eye on everyone's board states for combos and other shenanigans to appear. The easiest way to win with it is obviously Ezuri, Claw of Progress, but frankly if you're getting to a point where you can win off of this then the Ezuri player was probably going to win another way somehow soon, because Ezuri was left on the table for too long or that player was just left to run amok. If you're playing against the one deck that can really abuse this, you should probably already be aware of cards that can win out of nowhere with Ezuri on the board and non-significant number of Experience counters accumulated. A better way to put it is to just say that I haven't heard anyone demand Sage of Hours be banned, and it's easier to tutor up with Ezuri and win with, being that it doesn't require you to wait for your next upkeep and takes significantly less build up. Why don't people ask for it to be banned? Because like Simic Ascendancy, Sage of Hours is as effective as it is in a very, very small niche and already demands two colors, cornering it into the decks we know will play it and it narrows the scope of concern for that reason alone.
For the interaction between Doubling Season and Simic Ascendancy, it works about as well as any other counter-based card with Doubling Season and is no surprise. If you manage to make infinite mana to pump into it, that's not even an argument for why it should be banned because at that point you could win any other number of ways and no one is complaining about Helix Pinnacle.
The fact that you have to find Simic Ascendancy, put it on the battlefield, protect it, play enough Proliferate or other effects to build the counters up and have it survive with those 20 counters until your next upkeep is telling that it needs enough work put into it that it is fine and not worthy of talk about being banned. The biggest danger is Ezuri and Atraxa, which if your group is leaving Ezuri, Claw of Progress or Atraxa, Praetors' Voice on the battlefield long enough for this to be a danger when it comes down, your group needs to have a talk about threat assessment and removal in those decks. Even if non-Ezuri/Atraxa decks in Simmic start running more Proliferate effects to help achieve this, that means they're sacrificing other ways that their decks could run better to force this, because very few Proliferate effects are worth it outside of dedicated decks. But, with the prerequisite of playing Simic, I don't expect that to happen much.
I've mostly focused on discussing Ezuri and Atraxa here, because the fact that you're cornered into playing Simic to even play this very much narrows the decks it will see play in, and these two are the most likely and any other appearances are going to be, again, extremely fringe cases. Frankly, Prime Speaker Vannifar and and having Birthing Pod Chains right out of the Command Zone worries me more than this, and that's not saying much because of how fragile Vannifar is.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Aether Snap is probably underplayed as is. Personally, have found Thief of Blood to be an all-star in my Alesha deck. Eat that, Superfriends!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Learn from the Past is a much more fun way to deal with LabMan.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I would say this is probably less threatening than Felidar Sovereign in that that card probably takes less work to win and it can do it sooner on average with less build around. 2/10 would be my assessment of the card without having actually seen it played.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Truly, blue is the real hero of magic. Blue is that friend that's always shooting down your *****ty drunk plans. It always pisses you off but then one night you party without him and boom, you're spending the night in jail because you stole a giant American flag from a used car dealer, and who's that bailing you and your other buddies out and taking you to IHOP? Blue.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Simic Ascendancy is a much faster but much more fragile Darksteel Reactor/Helix Pinnacle. I expect it to see some play in Atraxa and Pir and Toothy. And in those decks it may win some games but I'd wager it's almost always a "win-more"; if a player was in a position to dump 20 counters onto their permanents they prooooooobbbbably were going to win anyways, they just won a turn or two sooner with Ascendancy.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG