MTG Salvation

Have you considered playing Arcane Denial over Counterspell? It's easier to cast and replaces itself, and the card advantage to the opponent shouldn't be too relevant.

Actually no I had not. That's actually an excellent suggestion. That being said it's not strictly better by any means but i had even considered cutting counterspell for REB but I just wanted that to be a hard counter slot. I would say it's not a huge difference either way but is potentially better. I don't like that it gets worse as my opponents get Better and I don't like that I have to wait to get my card. The fact that the difference seems insignificant means I doubt I play it in paper as counterspell comes in foil and this does not. That being said I'm actualy going to cut counter spell on mtgo for this card for a few games and see how I like it. I'm the end I do play 1:1 games with the deck sometimes and I would use counterspell over denial in that setting 100% of the time. Good thought though

Cunning wish could be really good if it is allowed in your PG same with burning wish. Brain freeze is not good enough it's only relevant while going off targeting yourself. Meditate is not horrible but skip a turn reads more like draw 4 cards win this turn. which limits your ability to just cast it for value early as skipping a turn is a massive setback. The deck can be played on a budget im actually working on optimizing a list that is a little bit more focused and a little bit more glass cannon and a little bit more easy to play for budget players.

Moxnix, I really like this deck. Your damia one wasn't really my style, this one looks like great fun to me. It seems to include the fun and efficient (storm) parts of all of these colors and mashes out some real complicated paths that smooth right along. If I ever need decks for a more competitive meta, this is a deck I would play.

I wanted to watch all your content before commenting, but have been pretty busy lately and only watched 3/4 of dech tech.
I have a couple of questions. You mention 'removal slots' like you are fixed at certain levels. I was wondering if when making a deck like this you design with some scale of whats allowed (like hypothetically 5 slots for card filter, 5-7 for draw, 6-10 for color/brown rituals)? It seems like your deck building must be more out of habits you have built then that, but the way you describe slots made me want to ask and find out.

My second question is similar and regarding lands. Obviously with tide you want the islands. But how do you determine how many black sources vs islands to include. Also, have you ever had a problem with red due to price of progress or do the rocks help that.


The last thing is more of a content request. After ths first half of the deck tech I became more curious about why cards aren't in the deck than in. For example I am curious about Ill-Gotten Gains (opponents get counters back?), retraced image (not enough islands propper?), mana severance (too winmore/all in?). And a card from the spirtal tide article i long forgot rebuild(dont need 2 hurkyls/ modal one is better?). Dont need answers to these, I just think that this kind of profile of your deck decisions could provide myself and others with some more insight on your choices. Oi slithermuse too. I know slots are tight, I just get curious as to why these aren't good enough.
Last comment on the vids. Your mic sounds shot, if thats the case even cheap ones are pretty good these days.

Quote from Underhill83 »

Edit:
1) Has anyone thought of a budget list for this? Lets say nothing more than 20$ per card. Does it work or not at all?
2) What do you think about Brain Freeze, Meditate and Cunning Wish? Not good enough?

@underhill
I played a Grixis Storm for about 9 months, UR storm before that, and a lot of random other variants trying to use storm since. The grixis one was definately the strongest of the bunch, and iirc the reason I took it down was because I started feeling bad it wasn't fit for my kitchen table group(strong players, but toned down meta choices).. i dunno it was boderline, definitely one of my strongest decks.

Anyways, the earlier lists were pretty budget (I was back after a long mtg break and only had some black staples from a casual B deck), everything else I picked up slowly. The lists were just fine at the start and definitely got better with pickups like Time Spiral, LED, and fetches. Moxnix' list has great synergy, better than mine had. His budget list should be pretty slick. But I also encourage you to play around with what you have available. Prioritize $$'s on engine pieces/ rocks that produce more then they cost (really all this deck is lol... but I dont know how to describe it better), take what you have learned from Moxnix deck and this thread and try to make your own. Designing your own storm is really fun and you learn alot about the ins and outs of all the cards involved. If by some miracle I find a copy of what I was using ill PM you a far more budget take on grixis strom (and more all in on 'storm counts') that I was playing, but I think I lost it.

If you are going to continue making youtube videos, I really think you should do something about your audio.
The content is great, but it is harsh on the ears and unintelligible at times.

Quote from Underhill83 »

When I was playtesting, I could get to storm 15 relatively easy (or it just went infinite), but 30 or 40 was difficult (by turn 3 or 4).
I would think this makes Brain Freeze a better win con and more versatile. Am I wrong?
I don't like Grapeshot to much, I'd say.

Obviously I am not who you are asking, but here are my .02$ about it.
I like brain freeze. However, Brain Freeze is easy to meta against with eldrazi, blightsteel colossus, and Gaea's Blessing. Enough decks already have one of these in them to make the card randomly fail too. I won't call it bad, but it probably isn't the right choice for decks I use at least.

Grapeshot is a much better win condition than brain freeze due to eldrazi and the fact it works with tendrils the abiltt to use it as a semi tutor with PiF is not very important and narrow. Grapeshot is actualy more versatile as our wrath effect and one jf the reason I splash red. Four kill conditions is exactly the number I want for multiple reasons grapeshot is the 2nd best wincon in the deck. Eldrazi make brain freeze a laughable wincon. Being able to cast both tendrils and grapeshot twice is incredibly relivant. I will work on getting a new mic I'm aware that mine is broken.

@ rhino lots if good question I will answer after work.

Quote from Mojo Rhino »

Moxnix, I really like this deck. Your damia one wasn't really my style, this one looks like great fun to me. It seems to include the fun and efficient (storm) parts of all of these colors and mashes out some real complicated paths that smooth right along. If I ever need decks for a more competitive meta, this is a deck I would play.

I wanted to watch all your content before commenting, but have been pretty busy lately and only watched 3/4 of dech tech.
I have a couple of questions. You mention 'removal slots' like you are fixed at certain levels. I was wondering if when making a deck like this you design with some scale of whats allowed (like hypothetically 5 slots for card filter, 5-7 for draw, 6-10 for color/brown rituals)? It seems like your deck building must be more out of habits you have built then that, but the way you describe slots made me want to ask and find out.

My second question is similar and regarding lands. Obviously with tide you want the islands. But how do you determine how many black sources vs islands to include. Also, have you ever had a problem with red due to price of progress or do the rocks help that.


The last thing is more of a content request. After ths first half of the deck tech I became more curious about why cards aren't in the deck than in. For example I am curious about Ill-Gotten Gains (opponents get counters back?), retraced image (not enough islands propper?), mana severance (too winmore/all in?). And a card from the spirtal tide article i long forgot rebuild(dont need 2 hurkyls/ modal one is better?). Dont need answers to these, I just think that this kind of profile of your deck decisions could provide myself and others with some more insight on your choices. Oi slithermuse too. I know slots are tight, I just get curious as to why these aren't good enough.
Last comment on the vids. Your mic sounds shot, if thats the case even cheap ones are pretty good these days.

Quote from Underhill83 »

Edit:
1) Has anyone thought of a budget list for this? Lets say nothing more than 20$ per card. Does it work or not at all?
2) What do you think about Brain Freeze, Meditate and Cunning Wish? Not good enough?

@underhill
I played a Grixis Storm for about 9 months, UR storm before that, and a lot of random other variants trying to use storm since. The grixis one was definately the strongest of the bunch, and iirc the reason I took it down was because I started feeling bad it wasn't fit for my kitchen table group(strong players, but toned down meta choices).. i dunno it was boderline, definitely one of my strongest decks.

Anyways, the earlier lists were pretty budget (I was back after a long mtg break and only had some black staples from a casual B deck), everything else I picked up slowly. The lists were just fine at the start and definitely got better with pickups like Time Spiral, LED, and fetches. Moxnix' list has great synergy, better than mine had. His budget list should be pretty slick. But I also encourage you to play around with what you have available. Prioritize $$'s on engine pieces/ rocks that produce more then they cost (really all this deck is lol... but I dont know how to describe it better), take what you have learned from Moxnix deck and this thread and try to make your own. Designing your own storm is really fun and you learn alot about the ins and outs of all the cards involved. If by some miracle I find a copy of what I was using ill PM you a far more budget take on grixis strom (and more all in on 'storm counts') that I was playing, but I think I lost it.

IGGY- is too costly at 2BB and has a lot of drawbacks. as you mentioned return counters as well as just not being that good at many phases of the game.
Retraced image- Same issue it's use is far too narrow. my land count is low my "island" count is very low and the card's only Ritualing me if im mid tide. other than that its garbage in every other situation. I want as many cards as possible relevant at all phases of the game and there cost to effect ratio needs to be incredibly good to make my cut.
Mana Severance - All the issues you stated and this is typically played with charbelcher as a back up win condition i do not use this kill its better in 1:1
Rebuild- this is a fine card since it cantrips or is a ritual. However the cantrips for 2 mode is less than stellar use of mana and is the most likely use in the opening 2-3 turns. It's very strong with Ad Nauseam but im less built around that card than most. Recall is not only more mana efficient but it has a use in bounceing mana rocks / problem permanents for temnpo without blowing back my mox diamond's when i really need them not to. It is just a much better card with modes and having a cheaper cost.
SLivermuse- this card cost 4 mana and will quite often stand to draw me less than 4 cards if i want to play it on time. Think of it this way im not running the cipher blue black windfall "name escapes me" becuase at the cost of 2UB It is much less efficient. a playable effect? sure but not on the same tier as what i can play in other places. i have enough slots dedicated to "hitting" that i don't need more and the ones i play are better.

To the first questions i start with a template of how i want things like the curve to look and try to fit cards in categories that fill certain roles at difference phases of my game plan. i try to play as many cards that can function in every phase of my game plan as possible. You add powerful cards in packages. The more synergy every card has with each other card the better. The more phases the card is useful the better. Now you take powerful cards and they just fill a role like. I can play Diabolic tutor and get a card that goes "try to win" whatever my situation. This cost me 2BB + cost of card. or a can play doomsday and have a card thats BBB + maybe the cost of the cantrip you use to open your pile win. Both cards hit. One hits Alot faster. So like now i want to run doomsday now i need a certain number of cards with the word draw on them. Since i want cheap piles the cheaper the cards the better. So now I go ok i need about this mana total cantrips + tutors at cost X and Y to hit enough cards when i draw this so it just goes off on time. Then you have proportions for your Hit card and reach cards so you just fill in shell with the appropriate amounts of mana to cast your spells as quickly as possible. Like you can put some weight on exactly what a card does for you everywhere once you test your deck enough. For example .

Mox Opal- Sometimes does nothing early sometimes is free mana ALWAYS is castable, Going in or out of a wheel / large draw spell / AN > INVALUABLE. So honestly play test the card and you see if its good is the best way as always but alot of thinking goes into choices changing 1 card changes lots of cards in your build differing amounts as we see almost half the cards in our deck every game and sometimes we see them all.

As for the land base and mana sources. Same thing looked at total number of black sources at cmc 0-2 manipulate that number as high as i can without sacrificing island count unless i felt it was needed. For Many reasons i wanted to keep land light so it was a fairly simple choice of which lands i got to play. Urborg combos tower combos want at least 1 basic fetch able for swamp numerous applications. Untapped rainbow lands and a few duals was about all i needed to have enough red/black. in fact i still would like perhaps 1 more black sources but without giving up my sub typing on one of my islands. thing is its often that i just fix the black through dark ritual or something if i have too its easy to tutor you want alot of island too but you can fetch to favor only islands. Like one of the huge blows a budget deck is dealt is losing underground sea. that's a killer loss. Its a delicate balance but like anything else play testing solidifies and changes my opinion as i can almost feel what going to happen when im playing i can estimate my rough odds of going off in almost any situation fairly accurately. Like much like learning doomsday looking at how a card works in your line is once thing but once you figure out how to play now you want to do that same thing but you put more weight on how good the card is against the field where you draw it you have to know exactly how likely you are to draw any given card and when based on an average game.

Quote from Underhill83 »

Thanks for your answer. I'm always asking everybody. Sorry if this was unclear (my english is propably not that good)

However, I have another question...
I know it is a far stretch, but Teferi, Temporal Archmage could very well be a repetitive Turnabout. It could be even more usefull, if you have 2 lands and 2 artifacts to untap and Turnabout could do only half.
It is not an Instant, can't be used as fog... but this deck had no need for that anyway.
Is there a chance for Teferi? This might very well be the best (and only) pick for this deck from Commander 2014 (so far)...

Your english is good. Tef is probably to slow for moxnix deck. It might be ok for some budget / casual versions and I will def be messing around with him. Seems really good in winter orb decks.


@Moxnix: Those are some really detailed answers. I hear you loud and clear on the card choices. I was messing around with a Spanish Inquisition, and think thats where I got slithermuse and IGGs stuck in my head, and yah whispering madness does seem better then either. I jsut always want IGG to work out and it often doesn't. As for the slots/ packages / deck building questions... wow that is a lot to digest, and I often do things a little different. I probably have some follow up questions but I haven't had a chance to think them through well enough yet - you didn't write that wall of text for nothing though.

Questions are good keep them coming. I actually spent a lot of time testing yesterday both budget options and 1v1 options using both ban list. I'm going to address the question about Teferi while I explain something else as it ties in nicely. That is a longer response however so I will do it later when I am not working. I'm going to try and address a little bit my process for how I go about making cuts and adds as well as meta decking with this list.

I'd love to hear your opinion on adapting this to the French 1v1 banned list. I've been trying to work around the loss of the mana rocks, tutors, and draw power (no necropotence, and ad nauseum is a bit more painful - especially since aggro is much more of a thing) - but very inconsistent results. Most recent iteration was fiddling with dropping ad nauseum in favour of more looter effects to feed treasure cruise/dig through time/past in flames/yagwin since only 14 storm is (usually) needed for the kill in 1v1.

Going the spellbomb route and ironworks starts to push the deck towards eggs combo - and I'm not sure that engine is compatible with storm. I'll give it a try though - can turn mana rocks into ritual effects with ironworks out. Especially with that new red living death - but that might be too narrow of a use lol.

I've personally never been too impressed with most transmute since they just seem to be really really slow tutors. To the point I'd probably add in a diabolic tutor before a transmute lol. Only exception would be something like 3cmc transmutes in doomsday or one card combo engines.

I'll try to give a better response to these questions soon I have been busy. I will say that my changes to list for French are quite massive my main issue is not being able to test the list against good French players. I have no issue getting the deck to goldfish at about the same turn my issue is currently getting more control cards in the list. Also the loss of 10 life is massive for the way I took the list . In short I made it 5 colors to replace the broken cards with a Fastbond engine and attempted to keep card quality similar by losing a little consistancy with the mana base. That being said the main issue is not getting the deck to goldfish properly but being able to run enough control cards to fight through the pile of counter spell decks that run rampant in the French meta.

So I did quite a but of testing last night that got me some great information. Playing the deck with French rules is exciting because the deck was not running properly which means I get to tune it again. ;). The first lesson I (re)learned just goldfishing with my first round of changes was despite the fact that fastbond allowed for turn 4 kills much more frequently stretching the decks mana base to 4-5 colors just is not worth it. The loss of the mana rocks made it much more difficult craft turn 4 wins without the engine however. Based on how fragile the 5cc mana felt I decide a turn 5 deck with more protection was the way to go. So currently I trimmed out the multiplayer cards and banned cards. To make the deck flow correctly again first we need to address the loss of tutors. Imperial seal and vampiric tutor become gamble and personal tutor. Obviously downgrades but gamble has been so good it's made my core list! Cards like vault crypt ring and monolith served a very important purpose in acting as both rituals and ramp so both effects needed replaced so I added goblin electromancer nightscape familiar and additional mana rocks in Izzet signet fellwar stone and talisman of indulgence and Saphire medallion. Dark confidant comes back on as the deck slows down so he gets stronger as well as being much better in 1v1 and putting control in a bad position once resolved. Tidespout tyrant is far to clunky now and much weaker without the mana rocks so he gets cut. Reliquary tower is not strong enough without necro so it becomes island. Necro is fairly irreplaceable but we will settle for fact or fiction. Tormods crypt has not been good for me period im typically faster than everyone in multiplayer and having a dead card aginst control decks in 1v1 is killer. This is the slot gamble takes in my core list. I was able to
Now squeeze in a little more control in the form
Of REB and mana leak though I lose the much stronger mana drain. The loss of broken mana rocks made gilded lotus feel too slow and clunky the loss of top kills our futuresight combo and losses is a top deck graber so here I add scroll rack and serum vision. Still trying to make it kill turn 4 a little bit more often without losing footing aginst control. Still having issues with competition as the good players on mtgo will
Be using sol ring and strip mine and winter orb and the bad players suck so bad it doesn't matter but it's been fun testing either way and great for editing the budget list. Anyway gamble has been an allstar while I had been contemplating replacing tormods with a cmc 2 rock or REB in my main list I'm
Now happy to go
- Tormod's Crypt
+ gamble

Post ad Nauseam / insight it's just a demonic tutor for red quite often I have grabbed PiF with smaller hands etc. in the end having it occasionally wiff is perfectly fine considering how stupidly strong it is when it works.

So I played a quite a few mtgo games like 10 or so in 2v2 and FFA. Gamble has been so so good can't believe I never tested it before auto include status. Uploaded one more game from last night . I have stared down some impressive starts like crypt+ ring starts and still came back and won on time. Jeleva has been cast quite a bit in desperate situations and one way or the other has really pulled through in some clutch games. I finally feel like every card fits perfectly and I'm ready to shoot my budget section and start cleaning up the op I feel like I have grinded the deck enough to know it inside and out at this point. So I will Work on missing sections and expansion and once i feel it's good enough will go for a primer tag because I feel pretty confident about where the list is at right now.

I've always been curious on how impactful Jeleva really is. Given the lack of haste enablers, have you ever had any issues with Jeleva getting killed before you can get off an attack with her?

Would you ever use something like Defense Grid for protection against counters?

I didn't have the abilty to cast future top. I could have went helm
Into frantic search and then found that land and been able to future top but I did not see the land until
After using search. That being said I do make misplays quite frequently it's hard not too with so many lines to choose from starting the second you mulligan. In the last 40 games I have played I have lost 4. 2 of then I found winning lines after. One was a gross punt with doomsday I had my opponents over killed with a protected win condition in 2v2 with a counter up by my ally as well click the wrong card instantly know I have punted before even finishing my pile as you can't change cards on mtgo once you click one it's in the pile. One to casting FoW on a non important card vs prawzdzik so I got stuck under winter orb with necro down dug 40 cards without a tutor. If I had vandalblast at that point it was a win even with the misplay. 1 loss to brain wiessman where I start at 4 seize his brainstorm mana screwing him out of his 3 counters on 1 land then wheel back into the game turn 2. I misplay by swan songing a cyclonic rift on my notion thief with twister on the stack when I should have expected the counterspell behind it. 1 loss the other player did nothing I killed myself with mana crypt after hitting tidespout at 10 life wiffing holding FoW with win in hand for next turn. I played a game yesterday that I cast jeleva 6 times and won turn 10 casting tendrils of jeleva after exiling over 50 cards with her she finally gets thier. If I got to swing with her ever I had the win eventually she swung I won. While 90% of the time I don't cast her that other 10% she really pulls through.

So SCG Columbus is less than a 2 hour drive away for me. My buddies are playing legacy and on Sunday in the event though I was tempted to join them so in going to tag along however most these events do have commander as I side event so if any of you are going you can meet me up
There for some edh. Also I plan on winning every pod I sit down at I will try my best to record the matches and report back here on Sunday night / Monday morning I don't plan on making any meta deck changes at this moment.. Here's to hoping I dodge Druid combo and open hand mana crypt every game.

Seeing Gamble work for you (I never tried Gamble in storm before, got me curious), makes me wonder if entomb would be any good for this deck. A little narrow but low cost to set up a past in flames or add to next turns yawg will.

Not sure what it's total cost is ... I am missing foil ThoughtseiZe because I only like the original Art and those are about 250$ which for seize is pretty pricey I also only want iron gal foil
Fetch lands where I'm at 2 foil 1 alter. Every other card that can be foiled is except demonic tutor which I own a beta copy and lotus petal because it looks better in brown. Every other card that can be foil
Is foil and cards that can't be foil like doomsday I have custom alters done. So quite a lot I guess I should take some pictures... Anyway Gamble has been insanely good it does require being played intelligently but I hand yet to have it hurt me and won many games due to it's sheer power. Entomb is a very powerful card but I don't think it really fits here it seems far to narrow for a card that's typically very versatile when used correctly. Sorry you can't make it from Germany that would he longer than 2 hours I'll just have to kick some butt for you

Edit : I lied forgot FoW is foil now but that art sucks anyway...

Duals I have altered copy's of volcanic and u sea I own playsets if them so u got those 2 altered twister is signed by mark tedin not altered force is altered verdant catacombs is altered no badlands alter and it's the only one with the crappy T symbol on it ...
Mana drain candelabra Grim tutor / seal are not altered of the 4 I only really want to alter the mana drain so I have some pimping yet to do.. The seal is chinese but I don't think I'll ever upgrade it to English. all expensive at this point jeleva is altered as well. I have not had helm of awakening or gamble in my list long enough to get an alter done yet but their core so I'll get that done soon should be cheap to pick up. I was lucky enough to Already have a foil hurkyls when I added it to the list. So I'm by no means done pimping I guess but the deck looks pretty hot I'll get some picks up eventually you can see a lot if them in my really old damia deck tech videos. Of you google doomsday alters in image finder the doomsday galspanic did for me is awesome it's the one with fire coming from the bottom in Japanese.

So I had a pretty sweet game in that I realized if I have all 3 colors of mana and my tide spout loop I don't need any additional reach. I took a 6 card hand where I had no dig. My hand was watery grave bloodstains mire flooded strand Tidespout sol ring gilded lotus . My drawers were land counter spell pyroblast demonic tutor game starts with kahlia droping a Serra ascendant ( which bashes me for 18 for droping my sol ring) but I curved sol ring into a gilded lotus ended up drawing demonic tutor at 4 lands ring lotus on board my hand was pyroblast Tidespout I had cast counter spell t2 on deglamor. I top demonic tutor I think for a moment and relize if I grab mana crypt I can then cast it drop tide spout and have 1 left over to aim pyroblast at anything to start me bounce chain. Because gilded lotus could filter me to all colors I was able to just loop jeleva until all the decks were gone.

Yes I justad Infinte colored mana and looped jeleva until all the decks were exiled then just said go so they all lost on there draw step similar top helm + leyline/rip but on the entire board. Jeleva has time and time again proven herself to me by pulling me out if tight spots in suprizing ways. For example any time my deck studders and hits top
Deck mode due to opponents casting counters or just a pure mana no dig draw she lets us get right back to business. Even if the top 4 cards are wiff x4 great we just dodged 4 do nothing turns and a game loss by top decking that gas instead. What the Tidespout loop does is turns cards like gilded lotus and mox opal and candelabra into "hit" cards with my tide spout loop in the same way a tutor or storm card is. This is important because now if I have tide spout in my hand and a way to filter my mana on board it may be better like In this situation to grab mana to cast him ftw. As for best number 2 general is probly nekusar but I have seen no reason to test others. 5cc is fine I just don't like how it's less consistent like you will get god hands where the mana works out and your abusing your extra land drops a turn from green to get turn 3 kills. Other games you have no way of fetching the correct combination of lands to curve out the way you want and it makes the deck feel less smooth. The card quality in 3 colors is already stellar the mana is perfect the list of non side grade feels like enlightened tutor and extra land drops both of which fight with themselves by for ding fetching white and green duals.

That is a pretty funny win. My brother has a goodstuff control he jeleva designed to mill win that way. Not sure he's won a ton that way because the grixis value is real and be or someone else wins first... But it tickles me to see this deck winning that way.

Good luck at scg I def have a passing interest in how you do. I'd rather see you playing dd on stream but close enough.

Quote from Mojo Rhino »

That is a pretty funny win. My brother has a goodstuff control he jeleva designed to mill win that way. Not sure he's won a ton that way because the grixis value is real and be or someone else wins first... But it tickles me to see this deck winning that way.

Good luck at scg I def have a passing interest in how you do. I'd rather see you playing dd on stream but close enough.

Haha I do like legacy and strangely the 5cc DDFT looks fairly well positioned right now with hymn to torach on the decline while delver tempo is not a free win MU like goblins it's a MU I feel much better about than all the BUG list I was playing aginst on mtgo the last time I was grinding doomsday. Though honestly I would still feel better with caball ritual in my 60 if I was playing legacy right now just so much control and cabal really lets you go into a longer game much easier. While I am tempted to play legacy I have not been practicing for that format at all latley and I get little chance to play this deck in paper anymore as my competitive group uses a custom ban list that's much more restrictive and this list is way to powerful for my other paper groups. Thanks for wishing me luck I feel 100% confident in my ability to play this deck perfectly when I take my time and expect to crush some dreams I'll report back later.

Edit: so the game a mention losing to wiessman where I think I misplay the swan song by hitting his cyclonic rift was in fact a misplay his hand had daze and forbid if I saved song for forbid I had a chance but I thought if he didn't have a counter I got a free win where as if I saved it I was still on the downswing. Either way you can watch him beat me here from his perspective : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LLbwJs9S3Bg he uploaded the game.