MTG Salvation

I was not aware until i found this forum that cEDH is where I belong. That being said i don't have the most experience in this area but i like to learn. Most cards you will find me saying there is a reason for every card, but please do not take that as your opinion does not matter. I simply say why it was in there, where it was headed, so in case a person did not see that combo or idea. As for money I have a [curse word goes here] "budget", by budget i mean around 30$ for a card tops, but I am still open to you posting a card over that. Short story long....

Roast Away




My idea for the deck was trying to make every card interact with every other card. If it didn't it was removed, unless I didn't notice something. Create tokens, add +1/+1 counters, and sacrifice things.

Welcome to the cEDH forums!

I'm not really much of a competitive player (in the truest sense of the term), but I can make some general recommendations and leave the nitty-gritty card cuts to the pros.
- Your mana base is whack. Every deck will improve by doing a full suite of shocks/fetches at the bare minimum, and there are other dual lands you'll want as well. Your land count is also low, and isn't being supplemented by ramp. Speaking of...
- Where is all your ramp? Sol Ring, Chromatic Lantern, Cultivate, and....? You should be running all the 2cmc ramp before Cultivate. Rampant Growth, Farseek, Nature's Lore, etc.
- Look at strict upgrades. Diabolic Tutor is garbage. Demonic Tutor[ is strictly better. If that's outside your budget (which make room in your budget for one if you're going to be a competitive player), start with the flavorful Diabolic Intent. It's not as strong, but it will work in your deck.
- Big mana cards need to win you the game. Sandwurm Convergence is 8 mana, but by the time you hit 8 mana people are trying to win the game, and you get a token. Planar Bridge is the same way. 14 mana to tutor a single card, when you could run Demonic Tutor and cast the spell you get for much cheaper. Helm of the Host is nine mana that eats a removal spell. If you run cards like this you risk having an entire turn wasted because of a 1cmc removal spell...
- Which I barely see. Where is your removal? Nature's Claim is a staple. I won't list all the good removal, but if you aren't interacting with your opponents you're losing.

You get the idea.

here're some reference decks for CEDH Ghave that I could find:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ghave-edh-sorted/

...and that's it. I don't think Ghave is particularly competitive, so it's a tough build, but I'd start there. Basically everything has to change for this to be a CEDH deck unfortunately.

I will see about adding some of those ramps, pending some suggested cuts from people. Sandwurm convergence will be the first cut. Most my mana base was off making creature tokens to sac for mana and that was also my removal. Idealistic? probably not it's just worked so far. I have Aura shards Dictate of erebosGrave pact for removal I'm guessing those aren't exactly the removals you were hoping for?

Anything else. Ill post updated deck.

Cards replaced:

• Sandwurm convergence with Farseek
• Diabolic tutor with Demonic Tutor
• Fungal Sprouting with Nature's Lore

Stuff like Aura Shards and Grave Pact are good if you can reliably make tokens, but you will also want instant speed cheap answers. Your opponent won't drop a Paradox Engine when you have Aura Shards in play and a way to make tokens instantly. They'll just remove your enchantment then go about their business.

Welcome to the cEDH forums, Greenhamma! There are a lot of good people in this community and I hope that you find it useful and productive for you.

While cryogen has touched on some of the core philosophy surrounding cEDH, I'll reiterate one of the main points of cEDH as a philosophy to give context to some of my suggestions:

cEDH, as a format, is generally determined around T2-T4 as to who is going to win and who is not going to win. I'm not certain what your personal playgroup is like, but if you're playing with other cEDH'ers then you should expect that every pilot has streamlined their deck so that they have about 4-6 mana available by T3 with a card advantage engine in play or several tutors to have chained together. This means that you should streamline your deck to be RELEVANT by T3, being able to present either interaction for your opponents (meaning that you have instant speed removal for Abzan colors) or you are about a turn away from combo-ing off yourself.

Therefore, I recommend adding in a significant number of instant speed spells to your deck and to critically examine your deck strategy. From what I can gather, it looks like your primary combo revolves around Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with no cheap way to assemble him. I would recommend looking into a Reanimation strategy, including some tutors like Entomb and the cheap reanimation spells like Reanimate and Animate Dead. Victimize is also especially good with Ghave since he can spawn tokens that can feed certain engines and spells.

Some cheap instant speed interaction I'd also recommend are cards like Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Mortify, Vindicate, Snuff Out, Toxic Deluge, Swords to Plowshares, Anguished Unmaking, and Pernicious Deed. From experience, all of these cards are at a CMC that allows you to deploy them safely by T2 or T3 while being all-purpose enough to scale into the later stages of the game. It's critical that you get the chance to interact with your opponents since cEDH focuses on maximizing win percentage.

If I were to build Ghave as a deck, I would also check out a small Stax package. Because Ghave can spawn tokens, Smokestack is particularly effective in hindering your opponents' game plans while minimally effecting yours. I'm not sure how you feel about Stax as a strategy personally, but I can tell you that it's VERY effective as a game plan against other cEDH decks.

A rough decklist, from a budget perspective and based on cards that you appear to already have, that I would personally start with would look something like this:



EDIT: While this deck definitely isn't cEDH material, I think it's a good starting point for you in regards to your budget and the combos you're currently running. The next obvious upgrades for your Ghave deck would be the acquisition of fast mana pieces and the 1 CMC tutors (Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, etc.). I included Mana Crypt in the deck simply because, in cEDH, it's even better than Sol Ring. With it, you could theoretically cast Ghave on T2 or T3 and begin to start assembling a combo and turning Ghave sideways.

Note that many of your mana accelerants are under 2 CMC, allowing you to at least have 4 mana on T3 so that you can either tutor for a combo or present mana for interaction. The removal package is pretty robust and can be tweaked according to what you play against most frequently.

The primary combo lines involve Ashnod's Altar/Utopia Mycon and Parallel Lives/Anointed Procession/Cathars' Crusade. Assembling one piece of each component will yield infinite mana, infinite tokens, and/or infinite +1/+1 counters on Ghave so you can swing for lethal. I'll assume that you're familiar with how those particular combos work with Ghave. Your win conditions also have good synergy with the rest of the deck as a whole, so there should be minimal dead cards in your maindeck should you not be able to assemble your combo.

I also included a small Stax package so that you slow your opponents down and give yourself time to assemble your own combo. Any one of the Stax pieces will be able to disrupt a specific strategy, so tutor for them wisely and protect them when you can. Of the ones listed, I think that Linvala, Keeper of Silence is the best. She simply shuts down so many combos without affecting your own that she almost immediately becomes a problem card for your opponents.

I appreciate y'all covering the principals of the game not just saying heres how to fix. Gives me a better insight, and also opens my eyes to a reality, I don't know 1% of what i thought i knew ha.

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed The deck i have built now doesn't have him in it. I do know a few strategies and will read up on him more to better understand. Especially since i never thought, hey whats cheap ways to assemble him other than sacrificing tokens. Ill look into the reanimation strategy, and the listed cards. Also the same with instant speed removal.

You and Cryogen made me realize the sad truth that i just need to start budgeting to get some of the better cards if cEDH is going to be a thing.

Ill read up on stax to better understand it. Smokestack has been a card i have wanted to use.

Have most of the 1 and 2 cmc mana dorks, so ill start there. See why they are important. Guess I didn't think it had the same rule as other formats. In modern I have a Hydra deck and 12 mana ramps, guess is makes sense to include mana ramps in edh ha. Oblivious much Thank you

Ashnod's altar,utopia mycon I like these. I should already have had Utopia mycon in the deck. That adds a third infinite mana combo. I see you didn't list Phyrexian altar is 3cmc the reasoning? I am familiar with how the combos work with the infinite +1/+1 counters, mana, and tokens. Still learning more but those particular ones yes. I am guessing these are what you would assemble with all the cheap tutors?

The Deathrite shaman is that mainly for getting rid of everything? I know it has the ability to but is that where you were headed or is it more creature hate? I ask because of night soil, necrogenesis is an infinite combo ( well until there is no creatures).

Thank you for the deck idea, and all the helpful tips. I will start budgeting and getting some of these cards you and cryogen have listed. If there is anything here i said that doesn't make sense or if yall dont think that i understand what yall are saying then please just mention it.

No problem, comrade. I'm of the firm opinion that the evolution of Commander player will eventually bring them to a cEDH mindset, and it looks like you've found your way here.

While there are some cards that are pretty expensive, you can actually do quite a bit of effective deck-building with a budget. The decklist I posted doesn't have any cards that are individually worth more than $25 (I think...) so you can begin to acquire some of those pieces. The other benefit to doing so is that even if Ghave doesn't hold your attention forever, those cEDH cards are STILL good in any deck you play them.

I recommend checking out my Kaalia thread for a brief intro to Stax as a concept. I don't go into as much detail as the Stax Bible (found here), but I think it's an approachable way to understand why Stax is a viable option for cED. The summary is that Stax provides non-Blue decks with Time to develop their own gameplan/strategy. Blue based combo decks are simply the best type of deck in cEDH because of stack interaction and card draw and Stax strategies attack the basic pillars of those BLue-based combo decks.

CMC considerations are important because they dictate the number of spells you can cast during a turn cycle. The more spells you can cast, the better your chances of winning (generally speaking, of course). Not that you SHOULD cast a spell every time, but that you CAN cast them.

Deathrite Shaman, in a cEDH meta, is actually a glorious card. It provides grave-hate along with VERY consistent ramping. Fetchlands are just as ubiquitous in cEDH as they are in the more competitive 60 card formats, so the Shaman will nearly ALWAYS have lands to eat in order to generate mana for you. It's a just a really good card in any Golgari based deck.

I omitted Phyrexian Altar for budget reasons, that's it. If you have it, or are willing to spend for it, I absolutely recommend including it. It adds another dimension of combo redundancy to the basic decklist I wrote out earlier while also being a good mana generator with Ghave by itself.

Yes, you generally want cheap tutors so that you can start assembling your win condition as quickly as possible. cEDH decks are trying to win the game as fast as possible and can do so with consistency around T4. It feels terrible to be tapping out for Diabolic Tutor to find the last combo piece you need and then watch someone else cast Ad Nauseam for a bajillion cards and win on their turn.

Oh god i laughed so hard i teared up when i read that Stax Bible you posted. Another category i fall into Stax apparently. The part that says "-Do you feel Land Destruction is a perfectly viable strategy?" ha who doesn't the original deck posted has 3 or 4 land destruction strategies in it. I actually took out armageddon, because people frowned upon land destruction.

This is a good read thank you for recommending it. Also for explaining the reasoning for the cards listed above. Deathrite ShamanPhyrexian altarDiabolic tutor.

I think it might be wise for you to strongly consider a Stax package for your Ghave deck, since it's the best way to keep up with the Blue-based combo decks in cEDH. I don't generally recommend it because most playgroups are quite opposed to it (for obvious and fair reasons) but a cEDH mindset don't care. If Stax buys you time to assemble a combo and your playgroup is ok with it then you should absolutely be doing it. And Abzan colors have some of the strongest options available for hardcore Stax strategies.

I have played Ghave since he was released and he is one of my favorite and most powerful commander decks. The reason for this is all of the redundancy you can build into the deck. I used to run grave pact and aura shards but I have since gotten rid of almost everything that isn't part of a combo or a way to tutor for a piece of a combo. This forces my opponent(s) to have answers for multiple cards and they generally spend more time trying to stop me than building their own board state.

A must run for you is Doubling Season. It is a little pricey but Ghave, guru of spores, ashnod's altar and doubling season = infinite mana and infinite infinitely large tokens with just three cards. Having zulaport cutthroat, slimefoot, the stowaway, blood artist, Walking Ballista or blasting station in play means you don't even have to attack. Utopia Mycon is a must have and if you can swing it i would recommend phyrexian altar as well. I have tried Altar of Dementia and Altar of the Brood but my play group runs a lot of eldrazi so milling them out isn't a viable strategy for me. It might be for you depending on your play groups use of Eldrazi.

To increase redundancy I would run Cathars' crusade, Parallel Lives, Hardened Scales, Primal Vigor Anointed procession, Bloodspore Thrinax, Corpsejack menace, Juniper Order Ranger, Winding Constrictor, Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest and Crystalline Crawler.

I know it's probably a stretch as it's not a budget card by any means but Academy rector lets you combo off on turn 4 if you have utopia mycon, sol ring, ashnod's altar and academy rector in play with Scatter The Seeds in hand.

T1. Land -> utopia Mycon
T2. Land -> sol ring -> Ashnods Altar
T3. Land -> Academy Rector
T4. Sac rector to make 2 mana with altar, get doubling season with rector death trigger. Remove 3 counters from mycon to make 2 saprolings. Cast scatter the seeds using the 2 floating mana, tapping Mycon and the other 2 saprolings to get 6 tokens instead of 3. Sac 3 tokens to mycon for GWB and another to ashnods for 2 colorless to cast Ghave. He comes in with 10 counters. Sac the one of the two remaining saprolings for 2 colorless and you can go infinite with Ghave. Toss in any of your win-cons (or a draw engine like carnage altar, fungal plots or Psychotrope Thallid to draw into a win-con) and you've killed everyone on turn 4.

Granted this is magical Christmas land as you need the perfect hand and draw but I have done it a few times. And when you toss in Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Idyllic Tutor, Eladamri's Call and Diabolic Intent you can often assemble this on turn 5 or 6 which is still generally good enough to get there. And if they disrupt your combo you still have a ton of redundant pieces to fill in the gaps.

I do run some disruption my self like vindicate, Anguished Unmaking, Utter End and Maelstrom Pulse. Hour of Reckoning is also a great sweeper in a token based deck.

I also recommend Forgotten Ancient, Twilight Drover, Reyhan, Last of the Abzan, Vigor and Woodfall Primus.

Unfortunately, like almost all commanders, to be as competitive as Ghave can be you will have to splurge for a few cards but he can still be a super fun commander to build around and play with even without cards like Academy Rector. Hope this gives you some ideas but it looks like you are off to a great start anyways.

@DeadlyMonk
Welcome to the forums, comrade! Glad to see you here.

Your analysis seems spot on. Have you personally considered a Stax package for your own Ghave list?

Thanks @Benjameenbear, I have not tried a stax package in my ghave list. What would you recommend and how do you utilize it with a token/ghave deck?

I'm certainly no Ghave expert, but I think that these colors represent some of the best Stax effects available. Do note that I use the term Stax very liberally to include any card that actively restricts my opponents strategy. This could include cards like Aven Mindcensor, Rule of Law, Anafenza, the Foremost, Leyline of the Void, etc. And since Ghave likes tokens, then it seems reasonable to include the actual Smokestack card since you can easily feed it.

A good starting point would be Dies_to_Doom_Blade's Ghave list, found here. He focuses on Stax as a strategy VERY heavily in the list from an Enchantress perspective, so it may not be a best fit for the deck.

Either way, I would definitely make sure that I had Survival of the Fittest in my deck before considering a heavy Stax/Hate-Bear package. Hate-bears are some of the most effective cards at hindering opponents, so that's where I would start.

The specific Stax/Hate-Bear package that I would strongly consider would look something like this:



Contamination loves tokens and f's up any tri-colored or 4 color mana bases without hurting us too much; the primary combo lines actually involve colorless mana. Linvala, Keeper of Silence is pretty good for reasons that I think are pretty self-explanatory. Storm players HATE Eidolon of Rhetoric and Gaddock Teeg and pretty much every deck hates Aven Mindcensor. I would take the decklist that I posted and cut out Jarad's Orders and Growing Rites of Itlimoc to add in Eidolon of Rhetoric and Contamination.

Thank you for the suggestions and strategies.

I should invest in the doubling season.. I have yet to because people were already not able to keep up with the counters and tokens the deck already produces. Then again maybe i should just do it anyways. Thank you

Nice combo i can see it being a stretch to get that exact opening hand but outside of 60s isn't it always a stretch to get a perfect hand? I never thought about the combo so i will see what it will cost and maybe splurge just like some of the cards Benjameenbear had mentioned.

Most of the cards ( minus the non budget cards) you mentioned in your post i actually have so thats nice. Ill keep swapping and work them in see what pops up.

@benjameenbear i have worked in what cards i actually own into the Ghave deck that you mentioned... Mostly mana dorks and the removal. Haven't gotten to playtest but we shall see what happens.

Cool. Let me know how it goes!

I only got to play one match last night after the changes, funny i added about 6 mana dorks changed to dual lands and got more mana screwed than before ha, but probably just a bad draw and mulligan it happens. When i did get enough mana to start taking over i had aura shards+Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest was about to lay Ghave, guru of spores and everyone started controlling me. The guy that usually says "i don't play politics" started playing politics saying they should get rid of my cards, (which when i gave him crap for because he denied it). I played horrible but more playtesting should have better results.

That does sounds like a bad draw, honestly. I am able to consistently find mana sources with my cEDH decks and they run between 30-31 lands.

Ah, the irony of politics. I'm sorry that you became the target of politics and hate. It happens, particularly since Ghave has a reputation as a Combo commander. And your board state looked pretty awesome too, so I can see why the table went full panic attack. Meh. Chalk it up to your deck being high caliber and see if you can learn from your mistakes, comrade. Would it have been better to slow roll the Aura Shards and play Ghave simultaneously? Could you have engaged in your own politics to point out a more significant threat than your ability to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments at will? Those are some questions I encourage you to think about as you go into your next games with Ghave. Stick with it!

Yea I probably should have played them simultaneous. The one guy that controlled me had a card I forget the name something vortex and c0ntrolled my mana. He was more bent on controlling me than paying attention to the board state, which made him lose. They controlled my hydra deck that night also. Politics. I love ghave. I have only lost 3 games out of 17 with him.

I probably could have played politics but I dont believe in them just like I dont side board. I know I know.

I will keep in mind the order to play things like you mentioned that is probably one of the most important pieces of advice. Along with the cards y'all posted one more week ill get the stax cards y'all mentioned or at least some of the higher cost ones.

There's different ways to play politics without getting into actual table talk, if that's not your thing. It may be something as simple as sequencing your turns more effectively so that you don't appear to be the largest threat at the table until you suddenly win. Either way, politics is an inevitable occurrence in a multi-player format like Commander. cEDH as a philosophy minimizes the amount and/or efficacy of table-talk, but it's still present.

Keep practicing with the deck and learning it. You've already got a solid win percentage with Ghave, so perhaps the Archenemy status you have is somewhat deserved, haha.

Solid advice.thank you

Any updates here? I'm interested to see if the changes that you've made have translated into more efficient/effective games for you. Gotta make sure my advice is legit, heh.

Not yet starting next week i will be more consistent. I train Jiu Jitsu and the mtg nights have been at the same time as my classes, but Thursdays opened up now that class is on a new day. So ill update Thursday night or Friday morning. I also made a competitive modern deck so i need to test it as well.

Thanks for checking back in just to see.

Well, we know not to sneak up on you in a dark alley for fear of getting choked out haha.

Any new game reports? I recently came across a Combo focused Ghave list that abuses Ad Nauseam and Earthcraft.

Also, Generous Patron is another combo enabler for the deck since you can sac creatures to put +1/+1 counters on your opponent's creatures. I didn't even think about it in Ghave until I saw this combo list (I sadly can't find the link for it...).