Hello everybody,
I'm happy to find there's now a competitive section in the Commander Forums. Even though Ms playgroup is not quite cEDH level, there's quite some stuff going on that's far from casual, e.g. Armageddon, Combos galore etc. If everybody had access to the expensive pieces of fast mana this would escalate quickly.
We have Grenzo Doomsday, Baral Combo Control, Sidisi Flash Hulk Reanimator, Jhoira Eggs as well as Titania, Omnath, Windgrace, Gitrog and Najeela Midrange.
With this premise, I definitely need to be able to handle some creature centric decks.
Currently I'm working on Kraum & Thrasios with a focus on Infinite Mana Combos.
I'd really appreciate any help to make the deck as good as possible.
So in Combos there's
- Dramatic Reversal which combos with either Isochron Scepter or either of the Guild mages.
- Izzet Guildmage + Manamorphose + Training Grounds or Biomancer's Familiar or Illusionist's Bracers
- Nivix Guildmage + Turnabout or Time Spiral
- Palinchron or Basalt Monolith + Mana Reflection
- Rings of Bright hearth + Basalt Monolith or Aphetto Alchemist and any three Mana producing creature or artifact
So, what's good, what's bad about this list? Please let me know.
Welcome to the cEDH forums, Ardeyn! I trust that you've read the Etiquette and Philosophy forums; if not, take a quick read so you know what to expect from commentators within this forum.
As a brief aside, it's helpful if you put your Commanders separate in your decklist from your creature count. It's simply an expectation that readers have and will help make your list even more navigable. EDIT: Also separating your spells according to function would help as well.
I assume that your goal is to create infinite mana, draw your deck with Thrasios, and then dump that mana into one of your creature based outlets that actually kill the table, the primary ones I see being Niv-Mizzet and Skarrgan Hellkite, correct?
I came across an interesting infinite mana combo that uses a FlashHulk package. You include Torch Courier and Vigean Graftmage with Incubation Druid and you suddenly have a Flash Hulk plan that can produce infinite mana. You sac the Hulk and find those three pieces, putting a +1/+1 counter on Incubation Druid via the Vigean Graftmage and give it haste via Torch Courier to immediately tap for infinite mana. I think you could consider this as a nice way to win even faster than normal for your deck since finding instants and creatures in Temur colors are tutor effects that exist in abundance.
What are your thoughts on Counterspells? It seems like there's a real dearth of them in your deck which exposes your deck to weakness against other Blue players. If you don't like 'em, then perhaps you can include Autumn's Veil in order to force your infinite combo through and protect it from most interaction.
Rolling Earthquake or Earthquake would be good board wipes for you in order to keep those Mid-range creature decks fair and honest.
Thank you for the welcome and the helpful ideas, benjameenbear. I think, I know what I've gotten myself into here.
Since I currently only have access to my account from my phone, formatting is kind of a challenge, but I'll try and do my best.
You're right that I aim to produce infinite Mana, dump it into Thrasios and kill the table through one of the dragons or infinitely copying Lightning Bolt or Reality Shift with one of the guildmages.
The Hulk line looks interesting, albeit it's four slots that don't do anything on their own really and don't mesh with the rest of the deck as other pieces in this list do. I know Flash Hulk is quite efficient, yet I'd rather use those slots for more interaction.
Speaking of which, I'd love to add in some more counterspells. They're a good catch all. I'm not quite sure which ones and where to slot them in, though. Do you have any suggestions?
I really like Teferi for protection, though it's a bit expensive.
Spellseeker is more of an oversight than an intentional exclusion. I should probably ditch the Bounty for it. I'm not quite sure of Transmute Artifact in this list, though. There's not so many artifacts to sac into it.
I was also wondering if the small lands package (Blood Sun, Lotus Vale etc.) was worth running. I probably should just run Mana Crypt and Vault.
For more board control. From my experience, Blasphemous Act would be better than the 'quakes.
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I think removing the lands package is a good idea, since it doesn't directly generate card advantage nor does it really advance your primary game plan.
The cards I think that I would cut from your list are these"
Collective Restraint definitely seems like a meta choice, and I'm betting that Blasphemous Act would be just as effective in this slot while also being able to actually kill things when you need to.
Blood Sun seems cute with Lotus Vale, but that's about it. You could slot in another counterspell here, and I've heard really great things about Narset's Reversal. This may sound kind of odd, but I think that the new Domri, Anarch of Bolas could be an interesting experiment for you. Being able to fight creatures with Kraum and generate mana that makes your creatures uncounterable seems like it's at least exploring somewhat. But he doesn't actually do anything to further advance your gameplan of infinite mana.
Primeval Bounty just doesn't seem good enough, honestly. Unless there's a very specific reason that you like this card, I'd cut this from your deck for another piece of interaction, Intuition, Noxious Revival, or Return to Nature. I really like the modal nature of Return to Nature since all of its modes are relevant in a cEDH game.
Amulet of Vigor is a very powerful card, but you're perhaps not using it effectively enough to warrant deckspace. Consider this my shameless plug to include Memnarch as an additional win condition. It is another infinite mana outlet that helps to advance your board state when you're not going infinite. It's an incredible card when played alongside Mana Reflection, Illusionist's Bracers, Training Grounds, and Biomancer's Familiar, all of which you play in your deck.
Unless you're really attached to the consistency in land drops that Ramunap Excavator provides, I think this slot would be better served by a mana dork or ramp piece. Priest of Titania is especially attractive since she can generate mana off of OTHER people's Elves in addition to your own. And if you have access to a Bloom Tender, that card should immediately go into your deck.
Just a note, but equipping Kiora's Follower with Illusionist's Bracers will NOT yield infinite mana since the Follower's ability explicitly states that you must target ANOTHER permanent. Maybe that will influence your decision to keep the card in your deck?
I would personally add the following cards to your deck with the 6 cuts I suggested. They'll be budget options since I assume that you'll be working off of a budget.
This will bring your total Counterspell count up to 7, add another mana dork for consistency purposes, and another powerful board control piece and infinite mana outlet.
Again, these are simply my suggestions, so take them as you will. I come from a hard control playstyle, and I've particularly enjoyed how powerful Memnarch is as a card and with strong supporting pieces.
The decklist I would try and assemble, using your list as a rough template and under a semi-budget, would look something like this:
There are still a whole bunch of infinite combos in the deck. I won't explain them in detail, nor is this list comprehensive, just simply list them for ease of posting.
Nivix Guildmage + Rings of Brighthearth + Turnabout + mana sources
Nivix Guildmage + Illusionist's Bracers + Turnabout + mana sources
Thank you so much for the insightful reply, benjameenbear.
I'm really intrigued by where you have taken the list in your suggestion. It seems a lot more streamlined.
Also Vault of Catlacan hadn't crossed my mind as a (combo) option for the deck. In this regard, Azor's Gateway does seem like an option as well.
For our regular commander night this past week I had already taken out the Primeval Bounty for Blasphemous Act. Giving the rest of the deck another spin on its current iteration convinced me of your earlier ideas of how to improve the deck. I'll remove the lands package, adding a Bloom Tender, more Counterspells, and some cheaper rocks, to start with.
I actually like Kiora's Follower, despite not going infinite with the bracers. It's nice Ramp with all the stuff that produces two or three mana for tapping. Collective Restraint sure is a Meta call. It once again saved me during a game in our latest gaming night, where it re-directed some attacks of the Sidisi player. A weird game, I admit, as it ended with me cleaning up the table with Hellkite and Kraum beats.
Having had quite a number of mana dorks out, I figured, Benefactor's Draught might also be a good fit for the deck, as it can play the same role as Dramatic Reversal. What do you think?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
- A single spark of passion can change a man forever. -
You're welcome, Ardeyn. I think the list appears more streamlined simply because I've organized it differently, heh. It builds off of a lot of what your decklist is, so it's really an adaptation of what you're currently playing.
Kiora's Follower is definitely decent ramp, so I'm not mad at keeping it around.
I think Benefactor's Draught is more cute than anything. I don't think there would ever be a point where you would want the Draught over Reversal even if it does open a combo line via Scepter and Kiora's Follower and mana dorks. Additionally, what would you cut at this point? It seems like the deck is already fairly saturated with combo pieces, so adding another one seems to be excessive.
Granted, I could be totally wrong about this and hear your feedback that the Draught is actually powerful and eat my words. I'm happy to admit that, so please test it out first before taking my suggestion to heart!
Really like where the deck is going, though I need some more ways to get to the combo(s) faster.
The card draw/selection is not quite where I want it to be.
Regarding Benefactor's Draught: I removed Crop Rotation for it. It's been quite good in the couple of test games I played with it. Ranging from being a cantripping Ritual to outright going Infinite with Izzet Guildmage and a couple of mana dorks.
I'm happy to find there's now a competitive section in the Commander Forums. Even though Ms playgroup is not quite cEDH level, there's quite some stuff going on that's far from casual, e.g. Armageddon, Combos galore etc. If everybody had access to the expensive pieces of fast mana this would escalate quickly.
We have Grenzo Doomsday, Baral Combo Control, Sidisi Flash Hulk Reanimator, Jhoira Eggs as well as Titania, Omnath, Windgrace, Gitrog and Najeela Midrange.
With this premise, I definitely need to be able to handle some creature centric decks.
Currently I'm working on Kraum & Thrasios with a focus on Infinite Mana Combos.
I'd really appreciate any help to make the deck as good as possible.
1 Thrasios, Triton Hero
1 Kraum, Ludevic's Opus
Mana:16
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Incubation Druid
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Sol Ring
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Gruul Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Manamorphose
1 Nature's Lore
1 Simic Signet
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Turnabout
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Reflection
Untaps:2
1 Aphetto Alchemist
1 Kiora's Follower
Cost Reduction:3
1 Biomancer's Familiar
1 Training Grounds
1 Illusionist's Bracers
Combo Pieces:6
1 Izzet Guildmage
1 Nivix Guildmage
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Dramatic Reversal
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Palinchron
Utility:10
1 Amulet of Vigor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Izzet Charm
1 Regrowth
1 Blood Sun
1 Collective Restraint
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Trinket Mage
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Long-Term Plans
Interaction:11
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Nature's Claim
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Reality Shift
1 Beast Within
1 Chaos Warp
Finishers/Removal:2
1 Skarrgan Hellkite
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Draw/Selection:7
1 Brainstorm
1 Magmatic Insight
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Growth Spiral
1 Time Spiral
Lands:35
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cinder Glade
1 Command Tower
1 Deserted Temple
4 Forest
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Taiga
1 Hinterland Harbor
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Lotus Vale
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Mountain
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scorched Ruins
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Tolaria West
1 Wooded Foothills
So in Combos there's
- Dramatic Reversal which combos with either Isochron Scepter or either of the Guild mages.
- Izzet Guildmage + Manamorphose + Training Grounds or Biomancer's Familiar or Illusionist's Bracers
- Nivix Guildmage + Turnabout or Time Spiral
- Palinchron or Basalt Monolith + Mana Reflection
- Rings of Bright hearth + Basalt Monolith or Aphetto Alchemist and any three Mana producing creature or artifact
So, what's good, what's bad about this list? Please let me know.
Thank you for reading.
Ardeyn
As a brief aside, it's helpful if you put your Commanders separate in your decklist from your creature count. It's simply an expectation that readers have and will help make your list even more navigable. EDIT: Also separating your spells according to function would help as well.
I assume that your goal is to create infinite mana, draw your deck with Thrasios, and then dump that mana into one of your creature based outlets that actually kill the table, the primary ones I see being Niv-Mizzet and Skarrgan Hellkite, correct?
I came across an interesting infinite mana combo that uses a Flash Hulk package. You include Torch Courier and Vigean Graftmage with Incubation Druid and you suddenly have a Flash Hulk plan that can produce infinite mana. You sac the Hulk and find those three pieces, putting a +1/+1 counter on Incubation Druid via the Vigean Graftmage and give it haste via Torch Courier to immediately tap for infinite mana. I think you could consider this as a nice way to win even faster than normal for your deck since finding instants and creatures in Temur colors are tutor effects that exist in abundance.
That said, Spellseeker seems like an odd exclusion. It finds Dramatic Reversal and Transmute Artifact so that you can easily assemble Dramatic Scepter.
What are your thoughts on Counterspells? It seems like there's a real dearth of them in your deck which exposes your deck to weakness against other Blue players. If you don't like 'em, then perhaps you can include Autumn's Veil in order to force your infinite combo through and protect it from most interaction.
Rolling Earthquake or Earthquake would be good board wipes for you in order to keep those Mid-range creature decks fair and honest.
Hopefully you've found this helpful!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Since I currently only have access to my account from my phone, formatting is kind of a challenge, but I'll try and do my best.
You're right that I aim to produce infinite Mana, dump it into Thrasios and kill the table through one of the dragons or infinitely copying Lightning Bolt or Reality Shift with one of the guildmages.
The Hulk line looks interesting, albeit it's four slots that don't do anything on their own really and don't mesh with the rest of the deck as other pieces in this list do. I know Flash Hulk is quite efficient, yet I'd rather use those slots for more interaction.
Speaking of which, I'd love to add in some more counterspells. They're a good catch all. I'm not quite sure which ones and where to slot them in, though. Do you have any suggestions?
I really like Teferi for protection, though it's a bit expensive.
Spellseeker is more of an oversight than an intentional exclusion. I should probably ditch the Bounty for it. I'm not quite sure of Transmute Artifact in this list, though. There's not so many artifacts to sac into it.
I was also wondering if the small lands package (Blood Sun, Lotus Vale etc.) was worth running. I probably should just run Mana Crypt and Vault.
For more board control. From my experience, Blasphemous Act would be better than the 'quakes.
The cards I think that I would cut from your list are these"
1 Collective Restraint
1 Blood Sun
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Amulet of Vigor
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Izzet Guildmage
Just a note, but equipping Kiora's Follower with Illusionist's Bracers will NOT yield infinite mana since the Follower's ability explicitly states that you must target ANOTHER permanent. Maybe that will influence your decision to keep the card in your deck?
I would personally add the following cards to your deck with the 6 cuts I suggested. They'll be budget options since I assume that you'll be working off of a budget.
1 Narset's Reversal
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
1 Ionize
1 Priest of Titania
1 Memnarch
This will bring your total Counterspell count up to 7, add another mana dork for consistency purposes, and another powerful board control piece and infinite mana outlet.
Again, these are simply my suggestions, so take them as you will. I come from a hard control playstyle, and I've particularly enjoyed how powerful Memnarch is as a card and with strong supporting pieces.
The decklist I would try and assemble, using your list as a rough template and under a semi-budget, would look something like this:
2x Thrasios, Triton Hero
5x Kraum, Ludevic's Opus
Mana Sources (17)
0x Mana Crypt
0x Chrome Mox
0x Mox Diamond
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Rattleclaw Mystic
2x Incubation Druid
2x Bloom Tender
2x Priest of Titania
2x Aphetto Alchemist
2x Simic Signet
2x Izzet Signet
2x Nature's Lore
3x Basalt Monolith
5x Gilded Lotus
Combo Pieces (11)
1x Training Grounds
2x Biomancer's Familiar
2x Illusionist's Bracers
2x Nivix Guildmage
2x Izzet Guildmage
2x Dramatic Reversal
2x Isochron Scepter
3x Freed from the Real
3x Rings of Brighthearth
4x Turnabout
6x Mana Reflection
7x Palinchron
Win Conditions (2)
6x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
7x Memnarch
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Worldly Tutor
1x Crop Rotation
2x Finale of Devastation
3x Spellseeker
3x Trinket Mage
Removal (9)
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Rapid Hybridzation
1x Nature's Claim
1x Rolling Earthquake
2x Reality Shift
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Capsize
3x Beast Within
Counterspells (8)
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Swan Song
2x Counterspell
2x Arcane Denial
2x Izzet Charm
2x Narset's Reversal
3x Counterflux
4x Glen Elendra Archmage
Card Draw (8)
1x Mystic Remora
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Growth Spiral
2x Manamorphose
2x Impulse
6x Time Spiral
Utility (6)
2x Expansion // Explosion
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Regrowth
3x Eternal Witness
4x Storm the Vault
5x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Deserted Temple
1x Magosi, the Waterveil
1x Command Tower
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Frontier Bivouac
1x Forbidden Orchard
1x Mana Confluence
1x Taiga
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Steam Vents
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Yavimaya Coast
1x Shivan Reef
1x Karplusan Forest
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Flooded Grove
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
1x Tree of Tales
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Mountain
There you can also use Lightning Bolt, Regrowth or the Explosion half of Expansion // Explosion as infinite mana outlets in concert with Nivix Guildmage/Izzet Guildmage.
There are still a whole bunch of infinite combos in the deck. I won't explain them in detail, nor is this list comprehensive, just simply list them for ease of posting.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm really intrigued by where you have taken the list in your suggestion. It seems a lot more streamlined.
Also Vault of Catlacan hadn't crossed my mind as a (combo) option for the deck. In this regard, Azor's Gateway does seem like an option as well.
For our regular commander night this past week I had already taken out the Primeval Bounty for Blasphemous Act. Giving the rest of the deck another spin on its current iteration convinced me of your earlier ideas of how to improve the deck. I'll remove the lands package, adding a Bloom Tender, more Counterspells, and some cheaper rocks, to start with.
I actually like Kiora's Follower, despite not going infinite with the bracers. It's nice Ramp with all the stuff that produces two or three mana for tapping.
Collective Restraint sure is a Meta call. It once again saved me during a game in our latest gaming night, where it re-directed some attacks of the Sidisi player. A weird game, I admit, as it ended with me cleaning up the table with Hellkite and Kraum beats.
Having had quite a number of mana dorks out, I figured, Benefactor's Draught might also be a good fit for the deck, as it can play the same role as Dramatic Reversal. What do you think?
Kiora's Follower is definitely decent ramp, so I'm not mad at keeping it around.
I think Benefactor's Draught is more cute than anything. I don't think there would ever be a point where you would want the Draught over Reversal even if it does open a combo line via Scepter and Kiora's Follower and mana dorks. Additionally, what would you cut at this point? It seems like the deck is already fairly saturated with combo pieces, so adding another one seems to be excessive.
Granted, I could be totally wrong about this and hear your feedback that the Draught is actually powerful and eat my words. I'm happy to admit that, so please test it out first before taking my suggestion to heart!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Removed:
- Blood Sun
- Ramunap Excavator
- Amulet of Vigor
- Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins
Added:
- Bloom Tender
- Telling Time
- Force of Will
- 2 Basics
Really like where the deck is going, though I need some more ways to get to the combo(s) faster.
The card draw/selection is not quite where I want it to be.
Regarding Benefactor's Draught: I removed Crop Rotation for it. It's been quite good in the couple of test games I played with it. Ranging from being a cantripping Ritual to outright going Infinite with Izzet Guildmage and a couple of mana dorks.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager