MTG Salvation

Hi there! My name is Rowan, and I am the author of the now retired primer over here. Something happened when the forums were in flux, and I lost my login. I've played this iteration for many years headed by Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, but when Parun was printed I saw that it was largely a cut and dry upgrade, so I switched to Niv 3.0, Niv-Mizzet, Parun and never looked back.

I definitely noticed that the deck played a little different. Having such a strong draw engine in my command zone was a huge benefit. I didn't necessarily have to rely on tutoring up Consecrated Sphinx or Alhammarret's Archive to get a fat hand. I just needed to cast a lot of spells (and of course cast my commander/keep him protected).

My eventual goal is to write up a cEDH Primer for this deck because I see it as being a logical evolution of my old primer. I find that the process of putting together a primer really helps me workshop and hone the deck, thanks to all the feedback and my thought process in writing.

To begin, rather than list the very best cards for the deck, I'm going to list the deck exactly as I currently own it in paper, card for card. My intent is to ask for feedback as far as upgrades and also workshop the deck with the community. I am returning back to the game after a few years absence, so there are many cards that I'm not familiar with yet. Please make suggestions. I have also observed that I'm pretty rusty with the game itself, not always making the best plays. I really aim to humble myself and learn from the community and my opponents.



Possible Upgrades:

My next big investment will most likely be a Scroll Rack and I would swap it in for Trade Routes. I really love Trade Routes as a card, but Scroll Rack is an obvious improvement and allows a broken counter lock combo with Counterbalance. It is also very tutor-able with my artifact tutors already in the deck. Overall I think this would be the most bang for my buck.

I would also like to upgrade my mana base. I am missing a few multi-color lands. I am eyeing Prismatic Vista of course. A Scalding Tarn would be lovely, but I guess I'm holding out for a reprint. Mana rock wise, I think a Mana Crypt would go the farthest. Mox are nice too, particularly Mox Diamond. I remember when I could have grabbed one for $40 and I thought that was high at the time! Riptide Laboratory is a relatively inexpensive card that I think could add some value, as is Cephalid Coliseum

A Force of Will would replace Foil but I don't particularly feel that would add much to the deck. I think I would rather have a Mana Drain as the ramp effect can be a great boost.

Show and Tell is something I'm a bit on the fence about. It can certainly get me an early Omniscience or Consecrated Sphinx but that's about it. It doesn't have a whole lot of synergy beyond those two cards.

Temporal Mastery could be worth it. As could Snapcaster Mage, although I am liking my current recursion cards just fine. You might say that Mystic Retrieval is sub-par but it plays very well with Intuition.

Choice of Win-con:

I need to decide what win-con I will be sticking with. This is probably the biggest question I have right now. Besides Mindmoil/Omniscience there are a few different win conditions currently listed in the deck. There is Paradox Engine/Isochron Scepter and there is Inner Fire/Comet Storm. I am aware that I should probably choose one or the other and swap in some additional support cards for it because currently the deck is feeling like it doesn't know what it wants to do. There are certainly arguments in favor of either win-con. I would likely swap in Lightning Bolt or Dramatic Reversal if I choose the former, and Curiosity and Enter the Infinite if I choose the latter. Right now am I playing with both because I want to see which one seems the most consistent.

The latter is great with the recursion cards I have in the deck. It's fairly easy to cast Inner Fire a bunch of times and hit everyone for lethal damage even if I don't have my deck in my hand. Reiterate makes infinite mana with Inner Fire also and most often it doesn't need to be infinite to be lethal. One of my favorite plays is to cast Intuition targeting Inner Fire, Comet Storm, and Mystic Retrieval. This the win-con that I have the most experience with. It works well. The only drawback to it really is that the pieces to it are less useful early in the game, and if one piece gets exiled, the other piece is mostly a dead card. When this has happened before I have gone for the Mindmoil win instead.

Paradox Engine is an incredibly powerful effect, but after playing with it for a while, I am hyper aware that I am not using it to its highest potential in this list. It works very well alone if I have a few mana rocks on the board, giving me massive amounts of mana per turn, but that is about all it does if I don't have scepter. I have plenty of artifact tutors in the list, and I can recur it with Academy Ruins. I don't like permanent based win-cons in the list as a rule because my experience in more competitive play has been that people actually save mana open for instant speed removal.

Potential Swaps:

The following are the cards I am eyeing the most as potential includes:

Fellwar Stone, Commander's Sphere, Darksteel Ingot, Wayfarer's Bauble, Sky Diamond, Fire Diamond - Something that I've noticed that it pays to get the Parun out as early as possible. I also struggle sometimes to get the colored mana I need to cast him. Ramp in general is what can get this deck into the competitive zone. And the fact that I am not running green means I have to rely on artifacts to do this. I can't exactly afford a Mox Diamond right now, so these are some alternatives. Ramp is also increases the chance of me being able to hard-cast Omniscience, which is usually enough to win me the game.

The Locust God - chump blockers for days!

Narset's Reversal - cheap copy effects are powerful in multiplayer. I can copy other player's early ramp spells and tutors. Later on they also act as a pseudo counterspell. I particularly like this new card for its versatility and I would run it before things like Reverberate or Twincast for that reason.

Reality Shift, Evacuation, Blasphemous Act, Aetherize - I've cut out some counters/removal for ramp, tutors and recursion, but sometimes I wish I had just a bit more of the former.

Archmage's Charm - this is a great counter. Heavy on blue but I think it's worth it. A mini Cryptic Command.

Scour from Existence - I find myself wishing I had a Vindicate effect in this deck but the fact that this costs as much as All is Dust likely makes it a no-go. Chaos Warp works fairly well.

Leyline of Anticipation, Vedalken Orrey - casting handcycling effect at instant speed is very powerful. For a control deck, this is a really nice effect, but is it necessary. I still haven't found a solid home for either of these cards in my list.

Echo of Eons, Tolarian Winds, Reforge the Soul, Days Undoing, Memory Jar, Diminishing Returns - one more handcycling effect would probably be welcome. I'm also not sure how much I like Fateful Showdown.

Personal Tutor, Merchant Scroll - more tutors the better right? Of the ones available these were the most narrow so they haven't made the list. That isn't to say that can't though.

Baral, Chief of Compliance - of the cost reducing effects, I think this one is pretty efficient.

Tribute Mage, Venser, Shaper Savant - in order to really enable Reality Scramble, I would feel better about having one more creature in the deck. ETB effects are good with that plan.

The Immortal Sun - six is definitely high on my curve and competing with my commander so this is probably a no-go, but I still like it... a-lot.

Show and Tell - like I said above, this is good support for Omniscience, but doesn't have great synergy with the rest of the deck. Currently I am running Reality Scramble which seems to be a better choice overall and shouldn't be a dead card.

As Foretold - I have leaned toward a more midrange control deck and I think this card can get out of hand pretty fast. It is amazing with either of the flash enablers. My only issue with it is that it is a completely dead card late game - literally the last thing I would want to top deck past turn 6 or so. I like 95% of my cards to be useful at any point in the game.

Finale of Promise, Snapcaster Mage, Argivian Restoration - of the recursion cards that I don't have in the deck, these are the most appealing, but are they any better than what I am currently using?

Aetherflux Reservoir - yet another potential win-con. This would probably go in the Basilisk Collar spot if were to run it but my gut says that it's win more. I'm curious to hear what your experiences have been with it.

Mind's Eye, Recurring Insight, Pull from Tomorrow - sometimes I wish I had one more solid hand fattening card, although I think Curiosity or Enter the Infinite should probably go in first. I don't particular feel good when I cast these kinds of cards though. As a truly competitive deck, sure. But for fun and ingenuity, not as much.

Future Sight - This is a very powerful effect and works great with Sensei's Divining Top. Experimental Frenzy has also caught my eye. The problem is that the mana invest can be a bit high. I find that I don't have room for it and not de-power the deck somewhere else equally important.

Extract, Jester's Cap - sometimes I find that I am facing off against some other heavy combo players. so much so, that they rely on a single card to win - an example is Food Chain Prossh, Skyraider of Kher which I also own, although mine isn't as focused on Food Chain. Removing that one card can mean the difference between a quick loss and actually playing the game. Against equally competitive decks, I think these can be a useful effect.

Dream Halls - I really like how this card makes you think. With three other players at the table, it can make for some very interesting and intense games. It costs half as much as Omniscience and it allows me to cast my commander, unlike Omniscience. I've gone back and for with this and Omniscience many times. However, I have found that more often that not Omniscience allows a win, whereas Dream Halls can pretty easily backfire, especially if there are other blue players at the table. They both have pros and cons, but I think Omniscience is more consistent. Dream Halls is more fun.


Well folks, that pretty much exhausts where I am with the deck at this moment. Thanks for reading and I look forward to your feedback!

Welcome to the cEDH forums, Rowan. I always knew your Niv-Mizzet deck would find its way here, haha.

First, I want to encourage you to read the Philosophy doc at the top of the forums, if you haven't already done that. I think it's very important for you to accept this mindset since, based on the comments in the OP, previous comments you've made in your Niv thread, and comments other threads, you ARE concerned about the emotional well-being of the table. While I applaud this and whole-heartedly support this mentality on a general basis, cEDH is a totally different philosophy. It's all about winning with the best cards available and playing as optimally as possible. This can come off as being ruthless or insensitive, which can create emotional feel-bads for the rest of the table, but it's simply playing your deck as efficiently and effectively as possible at all times. Posting here is an invitation and implied recognition that you're looking for optimal suggestions based solely on power level and mana efficiency.

Now that this is out of the way, there are two principles that are important to understand about cEDH: Curve Considerations & Mana Advantage. cEDH decks are inherently trying to break/abuse/circumvent the normal rules of Card and Mana Advantage, similar to what Legacy or Vintage decklists are doing. Consequently, every cEDH decklist is looking for the best type of effect at the lowest CMC possible so that you can play the highest number of spells per turn cycle possible. This generally means that there is a higher density of non-creature spells in the decks than normal. With this understanding, the card suggestions I make will have some context so that you can evaluate them properly. Seeing that you're coming from a period of inactivity, there are some awesome and exciting cards that you should certainly include.

Mystic Remora is quite simply one of the best cEDH draw spells in the entire format. No one can ever pay 4 to prevent you from drawing, so it regularly draws upwards of 4+ cards EVERY TIME YOU CAST IT. And if you don't draw that number of cards, then your opponents probably aren't casting spells, which is a good thing for you.

Mox Diamond and Mana Crypt are notable exclusions that I'm assuming exist because of budget reasons. If your playgroup is cool with proxies, you should certainly proxy them up. Fast Mana rocks are the name of the game in cEDH because it allows you to generate Mana Advantage faster than traditional ramp methods and land drops.

Pyroblast and its cousin Red Elemental Blast are super strong inclusions. Blue is the best color in cEDH (rightly so!), so there will almost ALWAYS be a Blue player at the table, more often 2+. A one mana Counterspell/Vindicate is quite powerful.

Curiosity is one of the best win conditions you can have, playing Niv. It costs 1 CMC and will immediately trigger when someone casts an instant/sorcery. In my mind, including a few of the Curiosity effects is a must for Niv because it's such a compact way to win the game.

Force of Will because duh. Proxy it if you can, otherwise I recommend putting it on your acquire list. Force of Negation is a great complement/substitute to FoW, but it's no FoW.

I recommend cutting pretty much all of the high CMC cards in your list. You're frequently not going to have enough time to cast Omniscience and, particularly in the case of Omniscience, there are better cards at lower CMCs that do just as good if not better things than what you're currently running.

Inner Fire is cute and inefficient, as is Alhammarret's Archive.

A good starting list can be found here. While there are some meta choices that may not be effective for you (i.e. Pyroclasm effects), this is a streamlined list that showcases the principles and mindset cEDH requires.

A list that I would personally start with would look something more like this:



Hopefully this helps!

I'll toss my list into the mix for consideration. Currently, I have switched from Niv Mizzit Firemand to Parun. It seems to do really well when it does well and then other times completely runs out of steam. Looking for some guidance or tweaks to make it more efficient. I sold my Teferi deck, and am missing the cold hearted consistency and picked this one up as a close alternative.

Figured why make another post when there was already a primer in the mix,

Okay so I'm in this boat too with the Niv Mizzet craze. Some things I would personally recommend would definitely be the thousand year storm as you can get some crazy combos with that on Niv. some other cards I think would be good are psychic Corrosion and Jace's erasure. Both of those are good for card drawing as they have you target an opponents library and send it to the graveyard with each draw. Another way us card drawing users can go is Jace wielder of mysteries from war of the spark. he lets you win for having no library left when you draw on your upkeep.

current deck I am gunning for. cheep-ish but I think its rather effective