Been saying this on Cockatrice for a few days now. Survival of the Fittest needs to go far before Loyal Retainers. The only deck that I can think off the top of my head that abuses Retainers is Sissay (sort of...) and even then it doesn't exactly break that deck, it just combos easier. With Survival in play T2, some decks will basically be given an auto win unless you quickly find some way to deal with it whether its graveyard hate or getting rid of Survival itself. But then you have to factor in the fact that they can fetch Eternal Witness which brings it right back and you start from square one. I respect all the deckbuilders that abused that card, but it really needs to go. It has been making games recently depressing to play against when you watch them tap 2 and drop survival and there is basically nothing you can do.
Jitte is another card I have mixed feelings about. Like Virtus said, its a corner stone to the French Metagame and it is extremely powerful. Does it deserve a ban? I'm not sure. It's one of those cards that is pretty much auto-included in any of my decks not just for the equip itself, but also insurance against my opponents playing Jitte. I think this card could stay. It is important in a lot of matchups but it sometimes locks your opponents out hard if you get it rolling.
Winter Orb has always been a staple of control and that shouldn't change. Don't see any reason why to ban that other than its hard to play against. I think this is more of a "we don't like it, ban it" card.
Ancient Tomb doesn't really seem a big problem to me, but talking to a few of the French players, they say that in their metagame its being abused and ending games faster than they should. I'm ok with this ban. It is basically like a Sol Ring for decks that don't care about life lose (and yes I realize its a Land drop, but it still pumps stuff out a lot quicker). It's not like there isn't many other useful lands out there....
Haven't seen any Humility being used on Cockatrice. Have no idea why they would think this card is ban worthy? Someone enlighten us?
As for both generals, I don't think either is really banworthy. Edric is the strongest deck hands down right now, but it can be beat and its being counter-gamed so hard these last few months since the last banning. I don't think it should ultimately be banned, but I wouldn't shed a tear if it did. Clique also doesn't seem that overpowering to me either. Again another strong general, but I don't think it is ban worthy in the slightest.
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French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
Virtus, where have you heard about those banlist changes ? As a member of the French committee, I can tell you that the one who told you that gave you a fake. I am curious to hear about your sources.
I first learned about the changes from a French player on Cockatrice. I know Riley and some other players have also been hearing the same thing. My source seemed valid- he was talking about how Back to Basics was banned in large part due to him. Would you mind giving us a list of members of the French rules committee that are on Cockatrice or MTGS so that we can tell whether or not we are hearing something from a reputable source?
I first learned about the changes from a French player on Cockatrice. I know Riley and some other players have also been hearing the same thing. My source seemed valid- he was talking about how Back to Basics was banned in large part due to him. Would you mind giving us a list of members of the French rules committee that are on Cockatrice or MTGS so that we can tell whether or not we are hearing something from a reputable source?
I told you for the last time, your general DOESN'T TALK BACK TO YOU.
I've heard the same thing, probably from the same source.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Thank you very much for this thread and the insight into the French scene.
Some information that would be really helpful:
Top 8 Deck lists from larger tournaments in the main OP.
Tournament breakdowns (I appreciate the write ups of individual players but a overview of the whole tournament including deck lists would be really helpful.)
S Tier eh? Been playing advance wars recently? ;-)
I'm not sold on Sisay as a tier A general, but I think the argument is made. If she's tier A, that makes her dramatically underplayed, since all the other tier A decks show up a lot more. Obviously I play Sisay as much as Riley, so I think she's great, but it's hard to call something tier A when it doesnt affect how other people build their decks.
Also, I'm not sold on some of the developing competitive decks. Is Vig good at all in 1v1? It's possible I've just never played against a good Vig deck, but he seems pretty strictly outclassed by Edric in his colors, and is too slow/fragile for the meta (he's slightly more expensive than Sisay, which probably isnt a tier A general, and doesnt really break the game if you get to untap with him - you need to cast a creature and then dont have the mana to slam something you tutor up, plus you cant tutor the real heavy hitters like Norn or GSZ). I feel like so long as we're building an honest "tier" rating, Vig should go into the "needs a ton of work and will never actually get there" category, as opposed to things like Azusa in the developing section that are kind of real decks already.
Never played Advance Wars. I'm coming from the Smash Bros. tradition here; it's the common fighting game ranking system. =P
Vig is certainly underrated. I give Miscalculat8dRisk due credit when it comes to his (albeit brief) efforts to translate his old Salvation duel list into the French duel list, which really only required changing a few slots and adding a slightly increased emphasis on control. In comparison to Edric, the deck played more intuitively in the early game, because all he had to do was repel his opponents' creature with counterspells and control cards and get to the mid-game (post turn 4), and then his victory was almost assured. Consistent game-plans in proven tutor generals that are meta-conscious have a huge edge over, say, the majority of other generals available. This is just one reason that Vig can be considered "Developing Competitive," if not better.
Because of d0su's Vig performance in the last Salvation tourney (stiff competition all around, to be sure), I'm even more convinced that Vig is undervalued due to how much more straightforward Edric is. d0su's take on the deck is the "zero card combo" build that's all about comboing with elves in almost the exact way that the new (and arguably top 10) Elf-ball Rhys decks are doing--only the Vig deck builds to a more reliable, tutorable win condition. d0su did extremely well in the tournament, finding himself overall satisfied with the results for a deck that had yet to begin the long process of tweaking to perfection.
Regarding Sisay: To be sure, no one was packing gy hate when Iname was the only gy shenanigan deck around, but that doesn't mean Iname isn't top tier. That Iname is capable of consistently beating all the top decks seen in today's meta means it's top tier to me, even if it's not highly represented; Iname is a deck that has a strange way of interacting and a really high mastery curve, so it's off-putting to most players. But again, representation is balanced with prowess for deciding tier placement for the purposes of the list in the OP--although this is certainly a debatable point, and again I should consider making two lists (one for representation and another for.. y'know.. actual potential, which will always be controversial).
I know, that's an awful lot of Iname talk for a Sisay defense, but the parallels are unmistakable. There's no other deck that plays like Sisay, as she's a determined "anti-deck" whose best build involves preventing your opponents from interacting with her and inevitably winning. How does one even build to stop Sisay? Already, the best decks in the meta run more spot removal and early counters than ever and certainly can't justify any more, but often even those are insufficient. That's what Sisay brings to the table, and, again, through meta-consciousness and actual testing, she's proven to be a deck that can/does consistently beat the ostensible (based on representation) top 10 decks in the current meta.
And on the topic of representation, because the deck's rarely ever straightforward even without an active Sisay (due to the sheer amount of tutoring and availability of options on every turn), she's not a particularly easy general to master, so she's not at all attractive to most players. She also has this "multiplayer general" stigma attached to her in the same way that Vig does, and the cost seems prohibitive when Rhys (or, to a lesser extent, Teeg) makes so much more sense in a heavy aggro-control meta.
In conclusion, Sisay is fantastic, and if anything I'm undervaluing her on the list so as not to look too biased, given that she straight-up beats a good number of the decks listed before her. =P
@Massive Marc: I'd have to leave this step up to French organizers, I think. And as I understand it, many players hide their decklists from the public, so this probably isn't that feasible. For now, I'll just continue to link to tournament results threads that are shared on this board and detailed write-ups via Emether.
Alright, I think I ought to write two Tier lists, having one based on tournament representation (using Maurice's formula) and one based off of, ideally, a panel of obsessive Cockatrice players. Anyone feeling qualified enough to be a part of that panel? Evergreen, I'm looking at you.
I guess it's about time I made a post or something consdering how much I lurk.
Asimov, you say that there isn't a decklist for GAAIV, however if you click that link, and then on the top of the page it says Decklist commander, there is an GAAIV decklist. Are you saying that's not the deck that was used to win? Seems like a pretty strong lock deck, with the random sol ring/stip mine in it (made me question it a little bit, so maybe you can shed some light..?)
That's not very fair. More information! 10 days of waiting isn't nice.
No, that would actually be pretty cool... That's exactly how marketers are doing it these days. That said, it would be awesome if it came with a trailer, a teaser, etc.
Speaking of which, are there many players who are interested in having another tournament since the last time we had it? I have some free time and I could potentially run it -- need to run it past the mods, etc. -- so if you peeps want some semi-official competitive tournament setting to slug it out with, feel free to inform me and I will see what I can do
Speaking of which, are there many players who are interested in having another tournament since the last time we had it? I have some free time and I could potentially run it -- need to run it past the mods, etc. -- so if you peeps want some semi-official competitive tournament setting to slug it out with, feel free to inform me and I will see what I can do
Yes, please!
Also: I've finally updated the Tier list so that it incorporates all data from the last 6 months' worth of major tournaments that have been shared on this forum. Check it out in the OP!
In time, I'll edit my take on the list as a separate entity, which will be almost entirely comprised of Cockatrice observations.
Speaking of which, are there many players who are interested in having another tournament since the last time we had it? I have some free time and I could potentially run it -- need to run it past the mods, etc. -- so if you peeps want some semi-official competitive tournament setting to slug it out with, feel free to inform me and I will see what I can do
I'd be interested. Even if I don't sign up, I still enjoy watching the matches on Cockatrice whenever I get the time to.
Speaking of which, are there many players who are interested in having another tournament since the last time we had it? I have some free time and I could potentially run it -- need to run it past the mods, etc. -- so if you peeps want some semi-official competitive tournament setting to slug it out with, feel free to inform me and I will see what I can do
Oh yes. Another tournament would be awesome.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
Two big EDH tournaments are coming in France, the first one in Lille on 25 march and the second one the first April in Saint Nazaire.
We are expecting more than 40 players (maybe 50) in each of these tournaments and they will be with the new banlist.
I think these two tournaments are key to this forum. Please do your best to post top 8 deck lists !
Looking forward to seeing the results from these tournaments.
To avoid hijacking this thread with tourney talk, do ask around if there are enough people to kickstart it. I am looking at at least 10 initial interested participants with about 32 eventual registrants to make it 5 rounds + Swiss -- though I am fine with 16 players with a 4 round + Swiss.
...and for goodness sake, please get enough players to keep Gaka off a second trophy
EDIT: -
For the benefit of players who are new to this, I am talking about something like this or this. I don't foresee the terms and conditions to be revised much.
That nin deck looks really good though. It is well placed because it has more counters that most decks that I have seen, giving it an edge in control v control mirrors. It also has the best red removal which is so good against the aggro decks in this format. 2 damage deals with so many creatures, and especially generals.
Edit: Why no Grand Arbitor in the Top Decks? It has 29 points in the first spoiler but isn't in the next one.
Why no Grand Arbitor in the Top Decks? It has 29 points in the first spoiler but isn't in the next one.
The second tier list in the OP represents the Cockatrice meta--or what I've seen of it, anyway. Grand Arbiter is almost entirely unrepresented in the meta, and what few times I've seen him played, he's been utterly crushed. But because he's such a respected general in the French meta and because I'm willing to give the players the benefit of the doubt when they say "I swear it usually does much better than this!", I still rank him as a contender.
Nevertheless, my skepticism of him as a top general remains, given the glass canon nature of needing to be able to stop EVERY resolved spell and permanent and still keep enough cards in hand to prevent yourself from dying to dense beatdown decks, especially if we're talking about the supposed "best build" of Arbiter whose only creature is the general himself and plays, at most, two board sweeps. Similarly, Wydwen isn't as consistently stellar in the Cockatrice meta either, due to how popular creatures such as Great Sable Stag have become.
Just my two cents. Someone else may have observed different results, but that's how I've seen it.
Arbiter can be tuned pretty well to any metagame (but like any control deck), it is quite difficult to do so. Its a very strong deck and UW is a very strong color combination. With a couple of early removal / bounce / counters you can wait until you drop arbiter and then you can lock the game up quite well.
If creatures like great sable stag are very common, I agree that makes it more difficult, although it still dies to swords / other white removal.
The main difference is that there's an infinite card pool on Cockatrice and no money restriction whatsoever. With that in mind, you see just about everything being attempted, from unique combo builds to archetypes ported over from Modern to Planeswalker.dec to Kami of the Crescent Moon (lol), and they're all attempted in an arena where they can face anything else. Mostly, though, you see a ton of on-the-fly evolution as deckbuilders respond to the best generals, which still comprise a good majority of the meta. That said, there's quite a bit more spot removal and well-costed sweepers in the best Cockatrice decks than there are in the French meta. Red is also played quite a bit more, as it's free to try and just as free to tweak and very capable against Edric and other weenie decks, whereas (I imagine) it's too much of a financial risk for French players to try their hand on a traditionally weak color in EDH.
On Cockatrice, decks that play almost exclusively one creature (their general) are at a bigger disadvantage than they are in the French meta. Though Zur has fallen out of favor in both metas, generals such as him are more susceptible to being overwhelmed by decks that are tweaked into nigh-perfection who play something obnoxious every single turn--in addition to their added removal. As an example of a markedly different approach to a general, Gaka's Geist is considered unusual to French players because Gaka plays a good number of creatures instead of just Geist and 50+ control cards. This isn't only to account for edicts but also to be relevant in combat against really efficient aggro and aggro-control decks. That's not to say that nobody in the French meta is playing a "Gaka Geist," but my impression is that his take on the deck is considered strange when it's arguably at its peak for the Cockatrice meta.
I want to stress the importance of the infinite card pool: I'd wager that, to build a top 8 capable deck, you're probably looking to spend 800 dollars minimum at this point due to the crazy inflation of Magic cards in the last few years. In my own experience, my Sisay deck has changed dramatically many many times over the course of the last year and has seen dozens of different cards come in and out. Thankfully, I had a lot of staples and trades already and have built most of the deck without having to drop additional cash, but I've still put more money into the physical version of my deck than I care to admit. 90% of the changes I've made have been to add cards that respond to the meta or have proven to work well in it. Keeping on top of these things IRL is both more expensive and more difficult because it's harder to get the full scope of what your competition is in the region relative to playing online.
Also, on that note, it's easier to become attached to certain pet cards IRL and to be loathe to let them go. Very often, the "bad decks" encountered on Cockatrice are straight ports from the physical version of the deck, and are teeming with sub-optimal pet cards. That's not to imply that all French decks are characterized by such cards, but that the attachment to bad cards is more often seen from physical cards rather than digital.
Anyone else have thoughts on the differences between the metas? Or on my Cockatrice tier list?
One of my observations is I think that Edric is underrepresented on Cockatrice honestly. I see the French players occasionally play him, but for the most part they are playing their favorite decks. I rarely see any Edric decks being play by any of the North American players (the timezone I usually spec). I'm not complaining because the deck is evil and less games with Edric is nice. But I've also metagamed around the decrease in Edric decks. I have dropped more of the AoE spells with more efficient spells because I don't need to clear a field if Edric isn't getting huge card advantage.
I think that Combo is also a lot more prevelant on Cockatrice than the French metagame. I get the sense that the French run quiet a lot of control decks which usually destroy combo. On Cockatrice you see a lot of everything. There really isn't one archetype more dominate than the others. We may see a chance with the new bannings seeing as how a lot of the graveyard dredge decks resurrecting huge angels will probably slow down a bit if Loyal Retainers or Survival of the Fittest may be banned.
Also for the tier list, I'm surprised that you have Clique near the bottom of the B's. I've seen a resurgence in Clique decks and they are winning probably over 60% if i had to guess. It's an extremely dull deck (not my cup of tea), but if you pilot it 'good enough', you have a good chance of winning. I would put it lower A's because of its good matchups against control and combo; not so much for aggro decks. Clique gets slaughtered by aggressive decks like Edric. But like I said earlier, since we don't see many Edric decks on Cockatrice, Clique is a little more powerful in the metagame. Solid deck, needs to be bumped up a bit.
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
About Geist > At least one good French player is playing an aggro Geist deck filled with good creatures. She is a member of the rules committee btw. She doesn’t want to make her list public but she has some good results with it. Maybe she’ll play at the Saint-Nazaire tournament upcoming.
Do I have to seduce her with Norin to get a peek at the list, or am I good with just doe eyes?
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Been saying this on Cockatrice for a few days now. Survival of the Fittest needs to go far before Loyal Retainers. The only deck that I can think off the top of my head that abuses Retainers is Sissay (sort of...) and even then it doesn't exactly break that deck, it just combos easier. With Survival in play T2, some decks will basically be given an auto win unless you quickly find some way to deal with it whether its graveyard hate or getting rid of Survival itself. But then you have to factor in the fact that they can fetch Eternal Witness which brings it right back and you start from square one. I respect all the deckbuilders that abused that card, but it really needs to go. It has been making games recently depressing to play against when you watch them tap 2 and drop survival and there is basically nothing you can do.
Jitte is another card I have mixed feelings about. Like Virtus said, its a corner stone to the French Metagame and it is extremely powerful. Does it deserve a ban? I'm not sure. It's one of those cards that is pretty much auto-included in any of my decks not just for the equip itself, but also insurance against my opponents playing Jitte. I think this card could stay. It is important in a lot of matchups but it sometimes locks your opponents out hard if you get it rolling.
Winter Orb has always been a staple of control and that shouldn't change. Don't see any reason why to ban that other than its hard to play against. I think this is more of a "we don't like it, ban it" card.
Ancient Tomb doesn't really seem a big problem to me, but talking to a few of the French players, they say that in their metagame its being abused and ending games faster than they should. I'm ok with this ban. It is basically like a Sol Ring for decks that don't care about life lose (and yes I realize its a Land drop, but it still pumps stuff out a lot quicker). It's not like there isn't many other useful lands out there....
Haven't seen any Humility being used on Cockatrice. Have no idea why they would think this card is ban worthy? Someone enlighten us?
As for both generals, I don't think either is really banworthy. Edric is the strongest deck hands down right now, but it can be beat and its being counter-gamed so hard these last few months since the last banning. I don't think it should ultimately be banned, but I wouldn't shed a tear if it did. Clique also doesn't seem that overpowering to me either. Again another strong general, but I don't think it is ban worthy in the slightest.
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
I first learned about the changes from a French player on Cockatrice. I know Riley and some other players have also been hearing the same thing. My source seemed valid- he was talking about how Back to Basics was banned in large part due to him. Would you mind giving us a list of members of the French rules committee that are on Cockatrice or MTGS so that we can tell whether or not we are hearing something from a reputable source?
I told you for the last time, your general DOESN'T TALK BACK TO YOU.
I've heard the same thing, probably from the same source.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Some information that would be really helpful:
Top 8 Deck lists from larger tournaments in the main OP.
Tournament breakdowns (I appreciate the write ups of individual players but a overview of the whole tournament including deck lists would be really helpful.)
Thanks for all the data provided already.
I'm not sold on Sisay as a tier A general, but I think the argument is made. If she's tier A, that makes her dramatically underplayed, since all the other tier A decks show up a lot more. Obviously I play Sisay as much as Riley, so I think she's great, but it's hard to call something tier A when it doesnt affect how other people build their decks.
Also, I'm not sold on some of the developing competitive decks. Is Vig good at all in 1v1? It's possible I've just never played against a good Vig deck, but he seems pretty strictly outclassed by Edric in his colors, and is too slow/fragile for the meta (he's slightly more expensive than Sisay, which probably isnt a tier A general, and doesnt really break the game if you get to untap with him - you need to cast a creature and then dont have the mana to slam something you tutor up, plus you cant tutor the real heavy hitters like Norn or GSZ). I feel like so long as we're building an honest "tier" rating, Vig should go into the "needs a ton of work and will never actually get there" category, as opposed to things like Azusa in the developing section that are kind of real decks already.
Vig is certainly underrated. I give Miscalculat8dRisk due credit when it comes to his (albeit brief) efforts to translate his old Salvation duel list into the French duel list, which really only required changing a few slots and adding a slightly increased emphasis on control. In comparison to Edric, the deck played more intuitively in the early game, because all he had to do was repel his opponents' creature with counterspells and control cards and get to the mid-game (post turn 4), and then his victory was almost assured. Consistent game-plans in proven tutor generals that are meta-conscious have a huge edge over, say, the majority of other generals available. This is just one reason that Vig can be considered "Developing Competitive," if not better.
Because of d0su's Vig performance in the last Salvation tourney (stiff competition all around, to be sure), I'm even more convinced that Vig is undervalued due to how much more straightforward Edric is. d0su's take on the deck is the "zero card combo" build that's all about comboing with elves in almost the exact way that the new (and arguably top 10) Elf-ball Rhys decks are doing--only the Vig deck builds to a more reliable, tutorable win condition. d0su did extremely well in the tournament, finding himself overall satisfied with the results for a deck that had yet to begin the long process of tweaking to perfection.
Regarding Sisay: To be sure, no one was packing gy hate when Iname was the only gy shenanigan deck around, but that doesn't mean Iname isn't top tier. That Iname is capable of consistently beating all the top decks seen in today's meta means it's top tier to me, even if it's not highly represented; Iname is a deck that has a strange way of interacting and a really high mastery curve, so it's off-putting to most players. But again, representation is balanced with prowess for deciding tier placement for the purposes of the list in the OP--although this is certainly a debatable point, and again I should consider making two lists (one for representation and another for.. y'know.. actual potential, which will always be controversial).
I know, that's an awful lot of Iname talk for a Sisay defense, but the parallels are unmistakable. There's no other deck that plays like Sisay, as she's a determined "anti-deck" whose best build involves preventing your opponents from interacting with her and inevitably winning. How does one even build to stop Sisay? Already, the best decks in the meta run more spot removal and early counters than ever and certainly can't justify any more, but often even those are insufficient. That's what Sisay brings to the table, and, again, through meta-consciousness and actual testing, she's proven to be a deck that can/does consistently beat the ostensible (based on representation) top 10 decks in the current meta.
And on the topic of representation, because the deck's rarely ever straightforward even without an active Sisay (due to the sheer amount of tutoring and availability of options on every turn), she's not a particularly easy general to master, so she's not at all attractive to most players. She also has this "multiplayer general" stigma attached to her in the same way that Vig does, and the cost seems prohibitive when Rhys (or, to a lesser extent, Teeg) makes so much more sense in a heavy aggro-control meta.
In conclusion, Sisay is fantastic, and if anything I'm undervaluing her on the list so as not to look too biased, given that she straight-up beats a good number of the decks listed before her. =P
@Massive Marc: I'd have to leave this step up to French organizers, I think. And as I understand it, many players hide their decklists from the public, so this probably isn't that feasible. For now, I'll just continue to link to tournament results threads that are shared on this board and detailed write-ups via Emether.
Alright, I think I ought to write two Tier lists, having one based on tournament representation (using Maurice's formula) and one based off of, ideally, a panel of obsessive Cockatrice players. Anyone feeling qualified enough to be a part of that panel? Evergreen, I'm looking at you.
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Asimov, you say that there isn't a decklist for GAAIV, however if you click that link, and then on the top of the page it says Decklist commander, there is an GAAIV decklist. Are you saying that's not the deck that was used to win? Seems like a pretty strong lock deck, with the random sol ring/stip mine in it (made me question it a little bit, so maybe you can shed some light..?)
That's not very fair. More information! 10 days of waiting isn't nice.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
No, that would actually be pretty cool... That's exactly how marketers are doing it these days. That said, it would be awesome if it came with a trailer, a teaser, etc.
Speaking of which, are there many players who are interested in having another tournament since the last time we had it? I have some free time and I could potentially run it -- need to run it past the mods, etc. -- so if you peeps want some semi-official competitive tournament setting to slug it out with, feel free to inform me and I will see what I can do
Yes, please!
Also: I've finally updated the Tier list so that it incorporates all data from the last 6 months' worth of major tournaments that have been shared on this forum. Check it out in the OP!
In time, I'll edit my take on the list as a separate entity, which will be almost entirely comprised of Cockatrice observations.
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I'd be interested. Even if I don't sign up, I still enjoy watching the matches on Cockatrice whenever I get the time to.
Oh yes. Another tournament would be awesome.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
I think these two tournaments are key to this forum. Please do your best to post top 8 deck lists !
Looking forward to seeing the results from these tournaments.
...and for goodness sake, please get enough players to keep Gaka off a second trophy
EDIT: -
For the benefit of players who are new to this, I am talking about something like this or this. I don't foresee the terms and conditions to be revised much.
Does any have any information about nin decks? Aside from the only lonely decklist we have here?
Edit: Why no Grand Arbitor in the Top Decks? It has 29 points in the first spoiler but isn't in the next one.
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
The second tier list in the OP represents the Cockatrice meta--or what I've seen of it, anyway. Grand Arbiter is almost entirely unrepresented in the meta, and what few times I've seen him played, he's been utterly crushed. But because he's such a respected general in the French meta and because I'm willing to give the players the benefit of the doubt when they say "I swear it usually does much better than this!", I still rank him as a contender.
Nevertheless, my skepticism of him as a top general remains, given the glass canon nature of needing to be able to stop EVERY resolved spell and permanent and still keep enough cards in hand to prevent yourself from dying to dense beatdown decks, especially if we're talking about the supposed "best build" of Arbiter whose only creature is the general himself and plays, at most, two board sweeps. Similarly, Wydwen isn't as consistently stellar in the Cockatrice meta either, due to how popular creatures such as Great Sable Stag have become.
Just my two cents. Someone else may have observed different results, but that's how I've seen it.
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
If creatures like great sable stag are very common, I agree that makes it more difficult, although it still dies to swords / other white removal.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
That's interesting. There seems to be a big difference in the two metas then. I wonder why that is. Thanks for the input.
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
On Cockatrice, decks that play almost exclusively one creature (their general) are at a bigger disadvantage than they are in the French meta. Though Zur has fallen out of favor in both metas, generals such as him are more susceptible to being overwhelmed by decks that are tweaked into nigh-perfection who play something obnoxious every single turn--in addition to their added removal. As an example of a markedly different approach to a general, Gaka's Geist is considered unusual to French players because Gaka plays a good number of creatures instead of just Geist and 50+ control cards. This isn't only to account for edicts but also to be relevant in combat against really efficient aggro and aggro-control decks. That's not to say that nobody in the French meta is playing a "Gaka Geist," but my impression is that his take on the deck is considered strange when it's arguably at its peak for the Cockatrice meta.
I want to stress the importance of the infinite card pool: I'd wager that, to build a top 8 capable deck, you're probably looking to spend 800 dollars minimum at this point due to the crazy inflation of Magic cards in the last few years. In my own experience, my Sisay deck has changed dramatically many many times over the course of the last year and has seen dozens of different cards come in and out. Thankfully, I had a lot of staples and trades already and have built most of the deck without having to drop additional cash, but I've still put more money into the physical version of my deck than I care to admit. 90% of the changes I've made have been to add cards that respond to the meta or have proven to work well in it. Keeping on top of these things IRL is both more expensive and more difficult because it's harder to get the full scope of what your competition is in the region relative to playing online.
Also, on that note, it's easier to become attached to certain pet cards IRL and to be loathe to let them go. Very often, the "bad decks" encountered on Cockatrice are straight ports from the physical version of the deck, and are teeming with sub-optimal pet cards. That's not to imply that all French decks are characterized by such cards, but that the attachment to bad cards is more often seen from physical cards rather than digital.
Anyone else have thoughts on the differences between the metas? Or on my Cockatrice tier list?
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I think that Combo is also a lot more prevelant on Cockatrice than the French metagame. I get the sense that the French run quiet a lot of control decks which usually destroy combo. On Cockatrice you see a lot of everything. There really isn't one archetype more dominate than the others. We may see a chance with the new bannings seeing as how a lot of the graveyard dredge decks resurrecting huge angels will probably slow down a bit if Loyal Retainers or Survival of the Fittest may be banned.
Also for the tier list, I'm surprised that you have Clique near the bottom of the B's. I've seen a resurgence in Clique decks and they are winning probably over 60% if i had to guess. It's an extremely dull deck (not my cup of tea), but if you pilot it 'good enough', you have a good chance of winning. I would put it lower A's because of its good matchups against control and combo; not so much for aggro decks. Clique gets slaughtered by aggressive decks like Edric. But like I said earlier, since we don't see many Edric decks on Cockatrice, Clique is a little more powerful in the metagame. Solid deck, needs to be bumped up a bit.
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
Do I have to seduce her with Norin to get a peek at the list, or am I good with just doe eyes?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary