I recently started playing AiR and it's a lot of fun! My list looks fairly similar to the one in the opening post and is meant to be killing fast. Any suggestions, tips, card alternatives, think abouts? Cards I really want to replace are Ring of Valkas and Goblin Vandal.
Vandal is certainly a meta card. For me, the times you have it on t1 to brick any opposing mana rocks is worth it not being great late game. However it's worth noting that it still has a relevant typeline.
I'm interested why Ring of Valkas is under-performing for you? It's been my go-to equipment (2nd only to Bonesplitter in effectiveness). If it isn't growing your guys as much, that isn't it's main goal (a counter here or there is certainly appreciated though). It's mostly for 1 Haste, with the occasional side bonus of making things bigger.
I'm also missing your reason for playing fetch lands, out side of recurring with crucible what else are they good for?
And have you ever tested flowstone flood? I know the buy back is a bit rough with a random discard, but you can potentially lock an opponent out of mid/late game.
I'm also missing your reason for playing fetch lands, out side of recurring with crucible what else are they good for?
And have you ever tested flowstone flood? I know the buy back is a bit rough with a random discard, but you can potentially lock an opponent out of mid/late game.
Because the Ring does more. It helps our guys get more beefy and less wimpy.
Fetchlands are good with everything. You play them because they are a certain non-zero amount of benefit.
Flowstone Flood is too expensive here for what we want. Not to mention four cmc LD is too slow. This is the kind of card you want in a ramp deck. This is not a ramp deck. Compare this to other four mana threats -- Hellrider, Koth, Oxid Ridge, Purphoros. F-Flood is none of these things. Not even close.
Alright I see why your choices are now, thanks for explaining.
Though I still don't think fetches are any benefit in this deck, other than feeding lavamancer, especially since the general is all about punishing land fall. I think cutting fetches, and adding Ankh of mishra would be beneficial, in a prior post you said so your self the deck can opperate well off of two to three mana. I understand the Ankh doens't attack, but it will punish opponents more for trying to get out of this deck's sweet spot I.E. early, and mid game.
Alright I see why your choices are now, thanks for explaining.
Though I still don't think fetches are any benefit in this deck, other than feeding lavamancer, especially since the general is all about punishing land fall. I think cutting fetches, and adding Ankh of mishra would be beneficial, in a prior post you said so your self the deck can opperate well off of two to three mana. I understand the Ankh doens't attack, but it will punish opponents more for trying to get out of this deck's sweet spot I.E. early, and mid game.
Feeding Lavamancer is important. He's a pretty integral card, providing removal to clear the way of small dudes, to providing the last few points of burn to the face.
Ankh of Mishra was tested, and it just isn't good enough. It sounds good on paper, but it really does boil down to to two things; 1) Can it pick up a rusty Axe, and 2) Can it generate card advantage. Since it does neither of these things, it comes off as the worst two drop of all of our cards. Imagine for a moment, yes we know this is fairly strong on t2. But how strong is it if we draw it on t4 or t5? Not very - it's like a late game AEther Vial or Bitterblossom. While some decks can afford this kind of deck slot, in AiR we can't - we need to make all of our cards go the furthest to squeeze as much efficiency out of them.
While I'm thinking about it, the FRF cards that could have merit to this deck here.
The first one seems playable. We have some expendable bodies to be pitched later on, and unlike Goblin Grenade, this doesn't hinge on a specific type. The second one seems obvious, offering us haste, evasion, and a pseudo card advantage for just R with it's recursion ability. The third one is interesting, but we need to find a way to kill him after we activate - or else have Homeward Path on the board because we do not want out control opponent drawing two cards.
Ok, I've never played a list like this before for commander, when I have time I'm going to put it together on cockatrice, thanks for your insight and patiance.
Ok, I've never played a list like this before for commander, when I have time I'm going to put it together on cockatrice, thanks for your insight and patiance.
No problem man. Most would not sleeve up an archetype as linear as AiR in the Commander format, heh.
Love the idea of this punisher deck. Here's a card for consideration from DTK: Zurgo Bellstriker should be a strict upgrade over Goblin Vandal
Also, could you explain what's going on with regards to the sub-tribal Goblins going on in your list? I want to know how much value there is in playing more/less goblins because you've included cards like Warren Instigator and Goblin Rabblemaster. That would also help explain why Krenko, Mob Boss didn't make the cut. Finally, does Trading Post have a place in your list? You seem to run a critical mass of artifacts, and I think there's some value to be had from its abilities.
Love the idea of this punisher deck. Here's a card for consideration from DTK: Zurgo Bellstriker should be a strict upgrade over Goblin Vandal
Also, could you explain what's going on with regards to the sub-tribal Goblins going on in your list? I want to know how much value there is in playing more/less goblins because you've included cards like Warren Instigator and Goblin Rabblemaster. That would also help explain why Krenko, Mob Boss didn't make the cut. Finally, does Trading Post have a place in your list? You seem to run a critical mass of artifacts, and I think there's some value to be had from its abilities.
Hi, thanks for your interest in my build!
Bellstriker is not a replacement over the Goblin Vandal - Vandal is like our own Trygon Predator and he comes down so soon it's easy to disrupt their mana stones and other assorted goodies. I'm fairly certain it works off an unblocked Warren Instigator as well (no it doesn't I'm dumb, I had to remind myself of the official text). I do believe Bellstriker can make for a better commander than Zo-Zu though, based on how much faster he comes down (he should generate more net damage on average than Zo-Zu does in a given game).
The sub-tribal goblin theme is only coincidental really. I picked Instigator because he is a two cmc double-striker (the cheapest double-striker to-date) that just so happens to create occasional value. As for those other cards, our four drops need to be capable of winning the game - things like Koth, Hellrider, the God, and even Oxid Ridge can do these. Post and Krenko do not. I'm not looking for "value durdles" at this point in the game, I'm looking to just kill you outright.
It's quite a bit worse tbh. Chandra buys us evasion & a point to the dome, while also offering us CA should we need it. Outpost Siege just isn't the same.
I updated this to include the Bellstriker list (Duel-Commander) as I feel it out-performs Zo-Zu on a consistent basis.
Hi! It feels funny posting outside of the kaalia primer =)) What's the reasoning behind playing swords as opposed to the lack of them in the zo-zu list? How differently does it play from Zo, and aside from the more consistent 1 drop swings, what makes bellstriker better? I think the use of swords and the non-inclusion of zo-zu himself in the bellstriker build means that the 2 AiRs play differently. I just need help understanding this whole archetype coz I'm so set on buying pieces. Thanks!!
I updated this to include the Bellstriker list (Duel-Commander) as I feel it out-performs Zo-Zu on a consistent basis.
Hi! It feels funny posting outside of the kaalia primer =)) What's the reasoning behind playing swords as opposed to the lack of them in the zo-zu list? How differently does it play from Zo, and aside from the more consistent 1 drop swings, what makes bellstriker better? I think the use of swords and the non-inclusion of zo-zu himself in the bellstriker build means that the 2 AiRs play differently. I just need help understanding this whole archetype coz I'm so set on buying pieces. Thanks!!
Also, why not SoLaS?
Zo-zu was constructed when he was the best choice but now that Zurgo exists, Zo-zu is outclassed. Why is he not in the 99? Well...what three drop is he better than?
As for why I chose to play swords. SoFaF & SoBaM are because we get stone walled easily by "big dumb green critters"TM and these let us swing past. SoFaI is because I wanted the second prot blue equip but also because it does everything we want - burn, pump, evasion, and gas - even if five cmc is a bit more than I'm comfortable with. I guess the two prot green swords are meta calls though; generally those slots would be Bonespliter & Ring of Valkas. SoFaI would be Mask of Memory, should you need something with a lower mana commitment.
As I've discussed in the Kaalia primer, SoLaS is more of a lock instrument. In this deck it doesn't have a lock though and is far too passive for an AiR deck. Yeah it can generate CA but the lifegain mode is weak and Jitte does it better if you need it (there shouldn't be any deck racing this though). Further our in-built CA devices (such as Thawing Glaciers, et al) are more consistent at the game plan and less clunky.
I feel I need to playtest Obsidian Fireheart again. I hate it for being "just" a 4/4 for four, but with SoFaF's inclusion, and it being a sizable body (triggers Flamewake Phoenix's Ferocious by itself) as well as covering Purphoros, God of the Forge's Devotion. Not to mention it makes a pretty decent mana sink, and dat reminder text - "The lands continue to burn after Obsidian Fireheart has left the battlefield."
Hey this list is really awesome, 3drinks! I'm really liking the Bellsriker route and plan on testing tomorrow! Question: can Bellstriker be cast for dash cost from the command zone? If so that is so awesome! Great job!
Hey this list is really awesome, 3drinks! I'm really liking the Bellsriker route and plan on testing tomorrow! Question: can Bellstriker be cast for dash cost from the command zone? If so that is so awesome! Great job!
Thanks! Glad you like it!
He can indeed. But it is still subject to commander tax as you are casting him. When you plan to test, I'd cut Young Pyromancer for Price of Progress - Pyro is a place holder since PoP seems to "not exist" around these parts. And Goblin Rabblemaster...should get a slot over...I believe Ash Zealot to be the next cut (good creature and all, but this is the point where the list is at).
I guess marath and anafenza on my meta is enough to run prot green. But I might just run one to make room for bonesplitter. Haven't used that since mirrodin.
I'd play Obsidian Fireheart for the flavor reminder text alone. But I feel like there's more milage to be had from burning earth. I'd love to know if Fireheart is playable.
I feel like a freaking double agent doing this, but for a healthy discussion's sake, what's the theoretical game plan when going against a Kaalia deck? Or combo in general? I mentioned this archetype to my friend who is a geist player, and his first impression was mostly about how combo hurts this build. My impression was actually the opposite. Won't it be hard to combo with all the mana denial?
Also, it's ironic how you once compared Kaalia in 1v1 commander to RDW, where opponents who don't prepare are just going to get destroyed... then come up with this list. =))
I guess marath and anafenza on my meta is enough to run prot green. But I might just run one to make room for bonesplitter. Haven't used that since mirrodin.
I'd play Obsidian Fireheart for the flavor reminder text alone. But I feel like there's more milage to be had from burning earth. I'd love to know if Fireheart is playable.
I feel like a freaking double agent doing this, but for a healthy discussion's sake, what's the theoretical game plan when going against a Kaalia deck? Or combo in general? I mentioned this archetype to my friend who is a geist player, and his first impression was mostly about how combo hurts this build. My impression was actually the opposite. Won't it be hard to combo with all the mana denial?
Also, it's ironic how you once compared Kaalia in 1v1 commander to RDW, where opponents who don't prepare are just going to get destroyed... then come up with this list. =))
Bonesplitter is a pretty good equipment, like a casting of Staggershock every turn. But it's no good against creature decks. Anything from elves to Marath, Anafenza, Animar, and etc means just get chumped - better to have a SoBaM there.
I thought Burning Earth was stronger as well, but with the nonbasic disruption we can play, BE is actually quite worse than Manabarbs. Meanwhile Fireheart is a four power body for four on it's own, with an extra added effect that lasts even after he's removed (because the lands continue to burn after Obsidian Fireheart has left the battlefield).
The a-typical trifecta of archetypes states "Combo beats Aggro beats Control beats Combo" so a deck like Kaalia or especially stack combo decks like ANT will be unfavoured for us. Creature based combos though, like Kaalia or creatures with < 4 toughness, are easier because we can deal with it (or if Pestermite/Exarch is too problematic, we can at least start playing Combust and Rending Volley to help mitigate). Otherwise we just have to race - bash for 2+ and blow up a land/turn. Either they hold nonbasics in their hand to avoid destruction while they find an answer (which is fine by me as they stunt their development) or they treat their lands like a one counter Gemstone Mine. But your friend is right - specifically stack-based-combo is hard for this deck as we can't interact well enough (which makes sense as it is non-interactive combo). In fact losing straight 0-2 to a Clique's Tunnel Vision in a match I should be favoured in, is why I'm playing REB/Pyro. Also, graveyard combo is bad for us; we just don't get the tools outside of a Scrabbling Claws/Phyrexian Furnace (I won't play Relic of Prog because I play Lavamancer and Crucible).
Kaalia IS like the "RDW of FNM" in terms of philosophy. But Bellstriker IS the RDW of FNM in terms of actual content and play style. In terms of philosophy though, right now Bellstriker is "that Conley Woods rogue deck" - you know it's out there, but you don't want to dedicate cards to fight it specifically.
I guess marath and anafenza on my meta is enough to run prot green. But I might just run one to make room for bonesplitter. Haven't used that since mirrodin.
I'd play Obsidian Fireheart for the flavor reminder text alone. But I feel like there's more milage to be had from burning earth. I'd love to know if Fireheart is playable.
I feel like a freaking double agent doing this, but for a healthy discussion's sake, what's the theoretical game plan when going against a Kaalia deck? Or combo in general? I mentioned this archetype to my friend who is a geist player, and his first impression was mostly about how combo hurts this build. My impression was actually the opposite. Won't it be hard to combo with all the mana denial?
Also, it's ironic how you once compared Kaalia in 1v1 commander to RDW, where opponents who don't prepare are just going to get destroyed... then come up with this list. =))
Bonesplitter is a pretty good equipment, like a casting of Staggershock every turn. But it's no good against creature decks. Anything from elves to Marath, Anafenza, Animar, and etc means just get chumped - better to have a SoBaM there.
I thought Burning Earth was stronger as well, but with the nonbasic disruption we can play, BE is actually quite worse than Manabarbs. Meanwhile Fireheart is a four power body for four on it's own, with an extra added effect that lasts even after he's removed (because the lands continue to burn after Obsidian Fireheart has left the battlefield).
The a-typical trifecta of archetypes states "Combo beats Aggro beats Control beats Combo" so a deck like Kaalia or especially stack combo decks like ANT will be unfavoured for us. Creature based combos though, like Kaalia or creatures with < 4 toughness, are easier because we can deal with it (or if Pestermite/Exarch is too problematic, we can at least start playing Combust and Rending Volley to help mitigate). Otherwise we just have to race - bash for 2+ and blow up a land/turn. Either they hold nonbasics in their hand to avoid destruction while they find an answer (which is fine by me as they stunt their development) or they treat their lands like a one counter Gemstone Mine. But your friend is right - specifically stack-based-combo is hard for this deck as we can't interact well enough (which makes sense as it is non-interactive combo). In fact losing straight 0-2 to a Clique's Tunnel Vision in a match I should be favoured in, is why I'm playing REB/Pyro. Also, graveyard combo is bad for us; we just don't get the tools outside of a Scrabbling Claws/Phyrexian Furnace (I won't play Relic of Prog because I play Lavamancer and Crucible).
Kaalia IS like the "RDW of FNM" in terms of philosophy. But Bellstriker IS the RDW of FNM in terms of actual content and play style. In terms of philosophy though, right now Bellstriker is "that Conley Woods rogue deck" - you know it's out there, but you don't want to dedicate cards to fight it specifically.
Wow. Vendilion decks are still alive? Aren't they afraid of Marath? I thought that's why they disappeared from the recent mtgtop8 meta. I wanted to make a clique deck just to see what it's like to be on that side of the permission fence, but a 1 toughness general with Marath in the meta discouraged me. And now with your bellstriker list, I'm really just "f blue" at this point. So that being said, what happens when up against decks like that? Just execute the game plan as best as possible? Tormod's crypt not an option against yard based combo? Also, did banning entomb not make that archetype manageable?
Yep that last bit you said is exactly what makes the bellstriker list dangerous. Kind of like global warming really.. it's just much more convenient to pray it doesn't kill us than to actually do something about it. Very flavorful considering the deck does kind of do that. That being said, Obsidian Fireheart is an auto-include for me at this point.
I don't like Tormod's because it doesn't cantrip. so in non yard decks it is a blank. I don't mean the t1 "lolz entomb my fattie gg" decks so much as...well anything that uses the grave (karador).
Really like this deck a lot! I imagine with a turn 1 Zurgo and start clocking them and just might be able to take down that extra 10 life they get starting the game.
With that being said in any meta with Sigarda you must have a answer somewhere in the deck or just scoop that MU. After thinking about the options I really think that Stormbreath Dragon and Thundermaw MAY have to be auto includes.
Tower of the Magistrate seems not so hot in DC. Is there a reason its in the deck over something like Barbarian Ring?
Also a lot of the cards that don't burn players or have IMO a Tier one effect could be cut for more burn redundancy.
I know that you really like Pithing Needle but it doesn't attack or deal damage or cantrip. Also along the same lines idk about gamble or looting effects that dont get you anything but card disadvantage when ur trying to burn them out.. could be wrong about the looting tho when you are flooding late game or something...
any thoughts on Titan's Strength? really seems like a turn 2 bolt or a okay combat trick..?
Really like this deck a lot! I imagine with a turn 1 Zurgo and start clocking them and just might be able to take down that extra 10 life they get starting the game.
With that being said in any meta with Sigarda you must have a answer somewhere in the deck or just scoop that MU. After thinking about the options I really think that Stormbreath Dragon and Thundermaw MAY have to be auto includes.
Tower of the Magistrate seems not so hot in DC. Is there a reason its in the deck over something like Barbarian Ring?
Also a lot of the cards that don't burn players or have IMO a Tier one effect could be cut for more burn redundancy.
I know that you really like Pithing Needle but it doesn't attack or deal damage or cantrip. Also along the same lines idk about gamble or looting effects that dont get you anything but card disadvantage when ur trying to burn them out.. could be wrong about the looting tho when you are flooding late game or something...
any thoughts on Titan's Strength? really seems like a turn 2 bolt or a okay combat trick..?
Good thoughts. Barbarian Ring is a must, and I admit it always slips my mind (don't know why, on MTGO I'm always playing Ring/Cabal Pit). Tower of the Magistrate IS fairly niche. 99% of the time you're right it's just a colourless land. But that one time it makes that Jitte fall off...well then again, in our meta (assuming this is who I talked to last night lol) who do we have bringing equipments at us? Ojutai? Sigarda? Tower doesn't touch them anyway.
Needle is such a hard cut. I'm not averse to cutting it on a trial, but man that'd have to be for a real allstar. Maybe cut it for Smash to Smithereens (I've been wanting to get that back in for awhile now). Flame Rift is quite interesting for an add as well, but should add Lava Spike first...but these only hit players so idk.
Gamble is obligatory to find a clutch Sword or a Jitte. Don't have any other way to find them so I believe it has to stay (it also finds either of those Dragons, so if those do end up coming in [which I would like to test] then it has even more of a need to stay). And the looting effects have been obligatory - they've helped find me more gas so I couldn't dream of cutting them. Might try cutting Dangerous Wager for Mask of Memory again though. That equipment is really, really solid. I liked your suggestion of SoLaS, it pulls double duty by recycling threats vs control and swinging past Sigarda.
With Titan Strength I was thinking that the 1 mana +3 with a scry effect would be worth it more then a pump alone? Although Madcap Skills really seems like the better choice.
Talking about burn to players only... wouldn't Flame Rift be better then Lave Spike? Since ur turn 1 will 99% of the time be Mountain Zurgo Pass?
Also I saw that you're testing Collateral Damage wouldn't Thunderous Wrath have a spot it the deck? I guess you could miss with a looting effect? It still feels really good and you do have a SDT for some instant speed silliness.
Eidolon of the Great Revel seems so good in this deck. Would Pyrostatic Pillar just not be as good?
I know we talked about Rabblemaster and it will soon make the cut but until then I know standard players have been enjoying Stoke the Flames and even Hordeling Outburst together. You even have Goblin Assault right now! Could those cards also be good, or do they not scale well in DC?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hidetsugu - Combo Damage
Ezuri - Elfball
Theorycrafting:
Selvala - "A hunter must hunt."
Selvala - Budget
Yeah Dualcaster isn't pulling so much weight here either.
Vandal is certainly a meta card. For me, the times you have it on t1 to brick any opposing mana rocks is worth it not being great late game. However it's worth noting that it still has a relevant typeline.
You're missing Cavern of Souls and Bloodstained Mire which I'm sure is just an oversight.
Lack of Umezawa's Jitte is concerning. Markov Blademaster is not-so-good (only good when it has Haste).
I'm interested why Ring of Valkas is under-performing for you? It's been my go-to equipment (2nd only to Bonesplitter in effectiveness). If it isn't growing your guys as much, that isn't it's main goal (a counter here or there is certainly appreciated though). It's mostly for 1 Haste, with the occasional side bonus of making things bigger.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I'm also missing your reason for playing fetch lands, out side of recurring with crucible what else are they good for?
And have you ever tested flowstone flood? I know the buy back is a bit rough with a random discard, but you can potentially lock an opponent out of mid/late game.
RIP Karn EDH
Because the Ring does more. It helps our guys get more beefy and less wimpy.
Fetchlands are good with everything. You play them because they are a certain non-zero amount of benefit.
Flowstone Flood is too expensive here for what we want. Not to mention four cmc LD is too slow. This is the kind of card you want in a ramp deck. This is not a ramp deck. Compare this to other four mana threats -- Hellrider, Koth, Oxid Ridge, Purphoros. F-Flood is none of these things. Not even close.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Though I still don't think fetches are any benefit in this deck, other than feeding lavamancer, especially since the general is all about punishing land fall. I think cutting fetches, and adding Ankh of mishra would be beneficial, in a prior post you said so your self the deck can opperate well off of two to three mana. I understand the Ankh doens't attack, but it will punish opponents more for trying to get out of this deck's sweet spot I.E. early, and mid game.
RIP Karn EDH
Feeding Lavamancer is important. He's a pretty integral card, providing removal to clear the way of small dudes, to providing the last few points of burn to the face.
Ankh of Mishra was tested, and it just isn't good enough. It sounds good on paper, but it really does boil down to to two things; 1) Can it pick up a rusty Axe, and 2) Can it generate card advantage. Since it does neither of these things, it comes off as the worst two drop of all of our cards. Imagine for a moment, yes we know this is fairly strong on t2. But how strong is it if we draw it on t4 or t5? Not very - it's like a late game AEther Vial or Bitterblossom. While some decks can afford this kind of deck slot, in AiR we can't - we need to make all of our cards go the furthest to squeeze as much efficiency out of them.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The first one seems playable. We have some expendable bodies to be pitched later on, and unlike Goblin Grenade, this doesn't hinge on a specific type. The second one seems obvious, offering us haste, evasion, and a pseudo card advantage for just R with it's recursion ability. The third one is interesting, but we need to find a way to kill him after we activate - or else have Homeward Path on the board because we do not want out control opponent drawing two cards.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
RIP Karn EDH
No problem man. Most would not sleeve up an archetype as linear as AiR in the Commander format, heh.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Zurgo Bellstriker should be a strict upgrade over Goblin Vandal
Also, could you explain what's going on with regards to the sub-tribal Goblins going on in your list? I want to know how much value there is in playing more/less goblins because you've included cards like Warren Instigator and Goblin Rabblemaster. That would also help explain why Krenko, Mob Boss didn't make the cut. Finally, does Trading Post have a place in your list? You seem to run a critical mass of artifacts, and I think there's some value to be had from its abilities.
EDH - Obzedat, Ghost Council of VALUETOWN BW
Modern - Rack Disruption BR
My Trading Post
Hi, thanks for your interest in my build!
Bellstriker is not a replacement over the Goblin Vandal - Vandal is like our own Trygon Predator and he comes down so soon it's easy to disrupt their mana stones and other assorted goodies.
I'm fairly certain it works off an unblocked Warren Instigator as well(no it doesn't I'm dumb, I had to remind myself of the official text). I do believe Bellstriker can make for a better commander than Zo-Zu though, based on how much faster he comes down (he should generate more net damage on average than Zo-Zu does in a given game).The sub-tribal goblin theme is only coincidental really. I picked Instigator because he is a two cmc double-striker (the cheapest double-striker to-date) that just so happens to create occasional value. As for those other cards, our four drops need to be capable of winning the game - things like Koth, Hellrider, the God, and even Oxid Ridge can do these. Post and Krenko do not. I'm not looking for "value durdles" at this point in the game, I'm looking to just kill you outright.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
EDH - Obzedat, Ghost Council of VALUETOWN BW
Modern - Rack Disruption BR
My Trading Post
It's quite a bit worse tbh. Chandra buys us evasion & a point to the dome, while also offering us CA should we need it. Outpost Siege just isn't the same.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Hi! It feels funny posting outside of the kaalia primer =)) What's the reasoning behind playing swords as opposed to the lack of them in the zo-zu list? How differently does it play from Zo, and aside from the more consistent 1 drop swings, what makes bellstriker better? I think the use of swords and the non-inclusion of zo-zu himself in the bellstriker build means that the 2 AiRs play differently. I just need help understanding this whole archetype coz I'm so set on buying pieces. Thanks!!
Also, why not SoLaS?
Zo-zu was constructed when he was the best choice but now that Zurgo exists, Zo-zu is outclassed. Why is he not in the 99? Well...what three drop is he better than?
As for why I chose to play swords. SoFaF & SoBaM are because we get stone walled easily by "big dumb green critters"TM and these let us swing past. SoFaI is because I wanted the second prot blue equip but also because it does everything we want - burn, pump, evasion, and gas - even if five cmc is a bit more than I'm comfortable with. I guess the two prot green swords are meta calls though; generally those slots would be Bonespliter & Ring of Valkas. SoFaI would be Mask of Memory, should you need something with a lower mana commitment.
As I've discussed in the Kaalia primer, SoLaS is more of a lock instrument. In this deck it doesn't have a lock though and is far too passive for an AiR deck. Yeah it can generate CA but the lifegain mode is weak and Jitte does it better if you need it (there shouldn't be any deck racing this though). Further our in-built CA devices (such as Thawing Glaciers, et al) are more consistent at the game plan and less clunky.
I feel I need to playtest Obsidian Fireheart again. I hate it for being "just" a 4/4 for four, but with SoFaF's inclusion, and it being a sizable body (triggers Flamewake Phoenix's Ferocious by itself) as well as covering Purphoros, God of the Forge's Devotion. Not to mention it makes a pretty decent mana sink, and dat reminder text - "The lands continue to burn after Obsidian Fireheart has left the battlefield."
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Thanks! Glad you like it!
He can indeed. But it is still subject to commander tax as you are casting him. When you plan to test, I'd cut Young Pyromancer for Price of Progress - Pyro is a place holder since PoP seems to "not exist" around these parts. And Goblin Rabblemaster...should get a slot over...I believe Ash Zealot to be the next cut (good creature and all, but this is the point where the list is at).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I'd play Obsidian Fireheart for the flavor reminder text alone. But I feel like there's more milage to be had from burning earth. I'd love to know if Fireheart is playable.
I feel like a freaking double agent doing this, but for a healthy discussion's sake, what's the theoretical game plan when going against a Kaalia deck? Or combo in general? I mentioned this archetype to my friend who is a geist player, and his first impression was mostly about how combo hurts this build. My impression was actually the opposite. Won't it be hard to combo with all the mana denial?
Also, it's ironic how you once compared Kaalia in 1v1 commander to RDW, where opponents who don't prepare are just going to get destroyed... then come up with this list. =))
Bonesplitter is a pretty good equipment, like a casting of Staggershock every turn. But it's no good against creature decks. Anything from elves to Marath, Anafenza, Animar, and etc means just get chumped - better to have a SoBaM there.
I thought Burning Earth was stronger as well, but with the nonbasic disruption we can play, BE is actually quite worse than Manabarbs. Meanwhile Fireheart is a four power body for four on it's own, with an extra added effect that lasts even after he's removed (because the lands continue to burn after Obsidian Fireheart has left the battlefield).
The a-typical trifecta of archetypes states "Combo beats Aggro beats Control beats Combo" so a deck like Kaalia or especially stack combo decks like ANT will be unfavoured for us. Creature based combos though, like Kaalia or creatures with < 4 toughness, are easier because we can deal with it (or if Pestermite/Exarch is too problematic, we can at least start playing Combust and Rending Volley to help mitigate). Otherwise we just have to race - bash for 2+ and blow up a land/turn. Either they hold nonbasics in their hand to avoid destruction while they find an answer (which is fine by me as they stunt their development) or they treat their lands like a one counter Gemstone Mine. But your friend is right - specifically stack-based-combo is hard for this deck as we can't interact well enough (which makes sense as it is non-interactive combo). In fact losing straight 0-2 to a Clique's Tunnel Vision in a match I should be favoured in, is why I'm playing REB/Pyro. Also, graveyard combo is bad for us; we just don't get the tools outside of a Scrabbling Claws/Phyrexian Furnace (I won't play Relic of Prog because I play Lavamancer and Crucible).
Kaalia IS like the "RDW of FNM" in terms of philosophy. But Bellstriker IS the RDW of FNM in terms of actual content and play style. In terms of philosophy though, right now Bellstriker is "that Conley Woods rogue deck" - you know it's out there, but you don't want to dedicate cards to fight it specifically.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Wow. Vendilion decks are still alive? Aren't they afraid of Marath? I thought that's why they disappeared from the recent mtgtop8 meta. I wanted to make a clique deck just to see what it's like to be on that side of the permission fence, but a 1 toughness general with Marath in the meta discouraged me. And now with your bellstriker list, I'm really just "f blue" at this point. So that being said, what happens when up against decks like that? Just execute the game plan as best as possible? Tormod's crypt not an option against yard based combo? Also, did banning entomb not make that archetype manageable?
Yep that last bit you said is exactly what makes the bellstriker list dangerous. Kind of like global warming really.. it's just much more convenient to pray it doesn't kill us than to actually do something about it. Very flavorful considering the deck does kind of do that. That being said, Obsidian Fireheart is an auto-include for me at this point.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
With that being said in any meta with Sigarda you must have a answer somewhere in the deck or just scoop that MU. After thinking about the options I really think that Stormbreath Dragon and Thundermaw MAY have to be auto includes.
Tower of the Magistrate seems not so hot in DC. Is there a reason its in the deck over something like Barbarian Ring?
Also a lot of the cards that don't burn players or have IMO a Tier one effect could be cut for more burn redundancy.
I know that you really like Pithing Needle but it doesn't attack or deal damage or cantrip. Also along the same lines idk about gamble or looting effects that dont get you anything but card disadvantage when ur trying to burn them out.. could be wrong about the looting tho when you are flooding late game or something...
any thoughts on Titan's Strength? really seems like a turn 2 bolt or a okay combat trick..?
Good thoughts. Barbarian Ring is a must, and I admit it always slips my mind (don't know why, on MTGO I'm always playing Ring/Cabal Pit). Tower of the Magistrate IS fairly niche. 99% of the time you're right it's just a colourless land. But that one time it makes that Jitte fall off...well then again, in our meta (assuming this is who I talked to last night lol) who do we have bringing equipments at us? Ojutai? Sigarda? Tower doesn't touch them anyway.
Needle is such a hard cut. I'm not averse to cutting it on a trial, but man that'd have to be for a real allstar. Maybe cut it for Smash to Smithereens (I've been wanting to get that back in for awhile now). Flame Rift is quite interesting for an add as well, but should add Lava Spike first...but these only hit players so idk.
Gamble is obligatory to find a clutch Sword or a Jitte. Don't have any other way to find them so I believe it has to stay (it also finds either of those Dragons, so if those do end up coming in [which I would like to test] then it has even more of a need to stay). And the looting effects have been obligatory - they've helped find me more gas so I couldn't dream of cutting them. Might try cutting Dangerous Wager for Mask of Memory again though. That equipment is really, really solid. I liked your suggestion of SoLaS, it pulls double duty by recycling threats vs control and swinging past Sigarda.
Not sure I like Titan's Strength/Brute Force/Blood Lust/Fist of the Anvil. But if I were to play any of these, I'd imagine Madcap Skills should make the cut first? Zurgo beats five on t2 and is harder to block...seems really solid.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Talking about burn to players only... wouldn't Flame Rift be better then Lave Spike? Since ur turn 1 will 99% of the time be Mountain Zurgo Pass?
Also I saw that you're testing Collateral Damage wouldn't Thunderous Wrath have a spot it the deck? I guess you could miss with a looting effect? It still feels really good and you do have a SDT for some instant speed silliness.
Eidolon of the Great Revel seems so good in this deck. Would Pyrostatic Pillar just not be as good?
I know we talked about Rabblemaster and it will soon make the cut but until then I know standard players have been enjoying Stoke the Flames and even Hordeling Outburst together. You even have Goblin Assault right now! Could those cards also be good, or do they not scale well in DC?