I tested LED already and felt it was at least subpar. A LOT of the times I didn't want to crack the LED. You guys forget, but this deck has a LOT of non-artifact threats. You can't crack LED when you got a Wildfire in your hand against Anafenza, for example. Also, against control Force Spike, Mana Tithe and Spell Pierce are real cards that can simply end the game against you. I've been against all the 5 rocks you mention (LED, Chrome, Diamond, Petal and Jeweled Amulet) and also don't like Mox Opal. I really think discarding a land, hand or exiling a card it a bad idea just to add mana 1 turn.
About rituals, I could see them being good, but I think we need permanent acceleration. The card disadvantage is real and against control you can't be playing that game at all. I really prefer Dwarven Ruins and Sandstone Needle to rituals, and already explained this here a few times - they're also recurrable with Crucible.
Now, one important thing for me to reconsider is the new mulligan. That can be hard on this deck and maybe having more rocks is important. So adding things like Petal and Amulet or rituals could be the way to go.
That said, the rituals / mox plan is interesting and warrants testing. A turn 1 Blood Moon sounds amazing though unlikely.
You need 2 low mana accelerants and Blood Moon in your hand to do that. Red rituals only net 1 mana, as do moxen. So yeah, I don't think you should consider that when deckbuilding. Most of the things you can accelerate into with 2 mana are mana rocks. And cracking a Lotus Petal to play a rock is... weird.
Of course, playing a land, mox, rock, turn 1 is nice. But that leaves you with 3 cards in hand - and one of them must be a land in order to play Daretti. I don't like it that much. Specially because if Daretti gets countered, you get nothing.
Hey guys, I recently built this deck for french, and it's a lot of fun. I'm slowly adjusting to the format, taking away my fast mana hurt my build, heh.
I'll post my list soonish, but until then, have you guys changed anything recently? How is the new mulligan working out?
I don't think Mizzix's Mastery is overcosted. Being able to play something like Devastation or Wildfire on turn 4 is huge. It's also one more way to deal with counters on your mass removal.
Oh, and getting to 5RRR is very, very possible in order to Yawgmoth's Will your graveyard.
Mizzix's Mastery is incredibly strong with our general pitching pricey instants and sorceries, and if you hit 5RRR, you likely have plenty of things that will win you the game if they are all cast at once.
My only worry is that you may not be in a position where casting a landwipe would win the game at that point. Edit: missed the may, so nevermind.
The thing isn't just casting it early. That's an option good to have against an aggro fast start. But being able to cast 6-8 mana spells for 4 is great, since it allows you to play 2 spells that turn. It's good if you want to immediately advance your board presence, and it's good if you want to cast 2 spells against control to resolve one of them.
Yeah, Mastery requires extensive testing, which I haven't got to yet. But I definitely wouldn't prefer Recoup over it, since almost anything you Recoup will be ultra expensive to play.
guys, i must say i absolutely love this thread
i have the precon deck since its release but never played edh with it too much
i used to be a sigarda fan, than i gave up edh, came back with omnath rage spoiler and now im breeding daretti
ive been looking at several ideas, and damn do i need to order some cards
but..
how do you feel about scarecrone?
fsecco is prolly gonna say "it doesnt impact the board when it comes online, needs lots of mana, so, no."
but..
could it work? anyhow?
is it utterly bad?
Problem is the deck doesn't have many creatures to reanimate, so Scarecrone will be dead most times when you need to grasp control of the game. I mean, in a prison shell, would you really want to spend 4 mana to return one of your 3-4 artifact beaters to play? If you're doing that, aren't you already winning (or losing)? (see, you were right )
I toyed a little with Codex Shredder as a way to get spells back recursively, but even that was slow and mostly not needed. Mizzix's Mastery seems better for that matter.
the thing is, while i just love magic, i just havent played it enough when i was young, so i dont have any expensive cards..
i had some cards home, i bought some others i didnt have, like metalworker (hey its unbanned, so why not use it?) and duplicant
while these are relatively cheap compared to what i could fit in the deck, i really have no money so im not using the same list as you guys are
i lack ugin/karn/recruiter/wasteland/gamble/devastation/cityoftraitors/bloodmoon/port
ive got some friends who could trade some of those with me, but i aint got anything they need/want
so im using more of the precon than id like to
also using some kinda cute cards like clock of omens / squee / cathodion
but after some thoughts i realized i was just kinda dumb to ask that..
i do run only a few creatures and daretti / welder can get them back
and scarec only returns arti creatures, so he wouldnt even help me recover my welder.. im always sad when i cast him because i know he'll die and i cant keep him forever doing what he does :/
im wondering if i should run forge / slobad while im looking for all those expensive cards i dont have..
Of all that the most important stuff is Blood Moon and the PWs. the rest you can easily play without. This is a very cheap deck. Even Ugin can become a All is Dust or another sweeper. I'd just really recommend getting a Karn and a Blood Moon. Forget the rest.
The thing is you can't substitute this stuff for useless junk like Cathodion. Cathodion needs a LOT of work to be profitable, it isn't even funny. Even Junk Diver is better. There are a lot of cheap cards you can use. A lot of people seem to like Ward of Bones, though I never tested it.
Clock of Omens could work with Static Orb, I've done it before. It's a little clunky but will get there once assembled. There's also Karn, Silver Golem. All cheap substitutes for those expensive stuff. The lands... well, you can always play Mountains!
yeah, im trying to make a friend give me his chronicles blood moon ahahahahaha
im looking for ward of bones..
a friend is sending me karn creature
but karn pw is kinda over my budget right now.. but im trying !
how do you feel about some ogw cards? like cosi for ex.. could he be the one last bomb you were looking for?
and while chandra flamecaller isnt exactly what the deck needs or wants, could she be placed on the slot of a wipe? like fallout for ex
About the new Chandra: yeah, after the mulligan rule change, I wouldn't add more cards that cost over 5 mana that aren't artifacts. I'm even rethinking some of the harder choices like Spine...
I think it does hurt. You need red mana and adding colorless lands is probably bad unless they REALLY do something for you like Wasteland and Rishadan Port. I'd play Kher Keep over this every day. Of course, I haven't tested the card so maybe it's awesome and I can't see it. But right now I can't seem to understand why you'd run it even over, say, Valakut.
i got blood moon from that friend..
now im searching for karn, following your advice..
sea gate wreckage is kinda ok depending on what your lands are.. for people like me who cant afford port or waste, it can kinda fit on that slot
agreed youll almost never run outta cards ini hand, but when you do, it might just come in handy
Metalworker depends on your build. The more artifacts you play, the better it'll be. Right now, I'm not running enough artifacts to enable him consistently.
You also need to consider that the deck plays few creatures, so it will be a target for your opponent AND it will die to your own sweepers.[/quote]
well, i think youre right
but maybe if he comes online on the first few turns and does his thing.. then he did his job?
also, later on we can weld him back if needed (i know we got more interesting targets to be welded.. but.. you can never predict games with such accuracy )
Metalworker is really bad. Mid-game it's useless. Unless you're running a mostly artifact build, which I don't think any in this thread is.
About Sea Gate Wreckage, it's not that running it hurts the deck, but it hurts the deckbuilding and takes up a slot that could be almost literally anything else. I can think of at least 5 lands that would fit the deck better than it. As I said, I'd probably run a Mountain over it anytime. Command Beacon is better. Kher Keep is better. Any manland is better. See?
Also, having to pay 4 to draw a card is bad... you'll spend a turn just drawing that card, probably unable to play it until your next turn.
I've been thinking about testing Thought-Knot Seer and Warping Wail in the deck. We could really use a duress effect, and Wail can counter some stuff, kill elves, Confidants, Stoneforges and whatnot and ramp. They both seem really interesting. It's a shame Seer isn't an artifact, but that's ok.
My flex slots right now are everything that costs 5 or more. I'm rethinking the whole deck after the new mulligan. I don't think Spine of Ish Sah is playable anymore, for example. High casting costs are now reserved for game winning bombs and mass removal.
The last two cards I added were Magmatic Insight and Pyromancer's Goggles, and they are proving less and less worthy. I'm also leaning towards cutting REB/Pyro, since my meta is not that blue.
I feel I need the graveyard removal cards, now that Reanimator is crawling back, High Tide is a thing and Meren has arrived. Also, the "flex slot" of the land that's been Arcane Lighthouse for a while should now be Command Beacon.
My last cut was Sensei's Divining Top :P. On a serious note, it was Magmatic Insight, since it's way worse under the new mulligan rule.
My flex slots right now are everything that costs 5 or more. I'm rethinking the whole deck after the new mulligan. I don't think Spine of Ish Sah is playable anymore, for example. High casting costs are now reserved for game winning bombs and mass removal.
The last two cards I added were Magmatic Insight and Pyromancer's Goggles, and they are proving less and less worthy. I'm also leaning towards cutting REB/Pyro, since my meta is not that blue.
I feel I need the graveyard removal cards, now that Reanimator is crawling back, High Tide is a thing and Meren has arrived. Also, the "flex slot" of the land that's been Arcane Lighthouse for a while should now be Command Beacon.
My last cut was Sensei's Divining Top :P. On a serious note, it was Magmatic Insight, since it's way worse under the new mulligan rule.
i wasnt running insight.. i run guess and voice nad its kinda ok for now
reb and pyro really should be meta calls
im still with pyro because of a pesky vendillion we have here
im beginning to think i need more mass remov / more removal / more LD / something alike
for now spine has really filled that slot for me because i can weld it back with daretti, welder, t4t, scrap mastery and some other stuff
so its kinda more versatile because i dont need to always hardcast it
lighthouse for beacon is a solid change
been looking for one since you suggested it last week..
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About rituals, I could see them being good, but I think we need permanent acceleration. The card disadvantage is real and against control you can't be playing that game at all. I really prefer Dwarven Ruins and Sandstone Needle to rituals, and already explained this here a few times - they're also recurrable with Crucible.
Now, one important thing for me to reconsider is the new mulligan. That can be hard on this deck and maybe having more rocks is important. So adding things like Petal and Amulet or rituals could be the way to go.
You need 2 low mana accelerants and Blood Moon in your hand to do that. Red rituals only net 1 mana, as do moxen. So yeah, I don't think you should consider that when deckbuilding. Most of the things you can accelerate into with 2 mana are mana rocks. And cracking a Lotus Petal to play a rock is... weird.
Of course, playing a land, mox, rock, turn 1 is nice. But that leaves you with 3 cards in hand - and one of them must be a land in order to play Daretti. I don't like it that much. Specially because if Daretti gets countered, you get nothing.
I'll post my list soonish, but until then, have you guys changed anything recently? How is the new mulligan working out?
Dust Bowl, Scroll Rack, Mizzix's Mastery
I'm thinking in change Tectonic Edge for Dust Bowl or just find a room for it, Scroll Rack,because the new mulligan, and Mizzix's Mastery, to recover Scrap Mastery or some LD.
and I saw in a list Isochron Scepter for Final Fortune for Sundial of the Infinite, what do you guys think?
Oh, and getting to 5RRR is very, very possible in order to Yawgmoth's Will your graveyard.
My only worry is that you may not be in a position where casting a landwipe would win the game at that point. Edit: missed the may, so nevermind.
i have the precon deck since its release but never played edh with it too much
i used to be a sigarda fan, than i gave up edh, came back with omnath rage spoiler and now im breeding daretti
ive been looking at several ideas, and damn do i need to order some cards
but..
how do you feel about scarecrone?
fsecco is prolly gonna say "it doesnt impact the board when it comes online, needs lots of mana, so, no."
but..
could it work? anyhow?
is it utterly bad?
thanks !
I toyed a little with Codex Shredder as a way to get spells back recursively, but even that was slow and mostly not needed. Mizzix's Mastery seems better for that matter.
i had some cards home, i bought some others i didnt have, like metalworker (hey its unbanned, so why not use it?) and duplicant
while these are relatively cheap compared to what i could fit in the deck, i really have no money so im not using the same list as you guys are
i lack ugin/karn/recruiter/wasteland/gamble/devastation/cityoftraitors/bloodmoon/port
ive got some friends who could trade some of those with me, but i aint got anything they need/want
so im using more of the precon than id like to
also using some kinda cute cards like clock of omens / squee / cathodion
but after some thoughts i realized i was just kinda dumb to ask that..
i do run only a few creatures and daretti / welder can get them back
and scarec only returns arti creatures, so he wouldnt even help me recover my welder.. im always sad when i cast him because i know he'll die and i cant keep him forever doing what he does :/
im wondering if i should run forge / slobad while im looking for all those expensive cards i dont have..
The thing is you can't substitute this stuff for useless junk like Cathodion. Cathodion needs a LOT of work to be profitable, it isn't even funny. Even Junk Diver is better. There are a lot of cheap cards you can use. A lot of people seem to like Ward of Bones, though I never tested it.
Clock of Omens could work with Static Orb, I've done it before. It's a little clunky but will get there once assembled. There's also Karn, Silver Golem. All cheap substitutes for those expensive stuff. The lands... well, you can always play Mountains!
im looking for ward of bones..
a friend is sending me karn creature
but karn pw is kinda over my budget right now.. but im trying !
how do you feel about some ogw cards? like cosi for ex.. could he be the one last bomb you were looking for?
and while chandra flamecaller isnt exactly what the deck needs or wants, could she be placed on the slot of a wipe? like fallout for ex
Karn Liberated is crucial because the deck doesn't have a lot of ways to deal with enchantments or PWs. That's why I play Spine of Ish Sah too. You can always play All is Dust or Scour from Existence, but they're not that good.
About the new Chandra: yeah, after the mulligan rule change, I wouldn't add more cards that cost over 5 mana that aren't artifacts. I'm even rethinking some of the harder choices like Spine...
now im searching for karn, following your advice..
sea gate wreckage is kinda ok depending on what your lands are.. for people like me who cant afford port or waste, it can kinda fit on that slot
agreed youll almost never run outta cards ini hand, but when you do, it might just come in handy
how much land are you guys running now?
is 36 really too bad for a semi monobrown deck?
also, have you tried metalworker yet?
Metalworker depends on your build. The more artifacts you play, the better it'll be. Right now, I'm not running enough artifacts to enable him consistently.
You also need to consider that the deck plays few creatures, so it will be a target for your opponent AND it will die to your own sweepers.[/quote]
well, i think youre right
but maybe if he comes online on the first few turns and does his thing.. then he did his job?
also, later on we can weld him back if needed (i know we got more interesting targets to be welded.. but.. you can never predict games with such accuracy )
About Sea Gate Wreckage, it's not that running it hurts the deck, but it hurts the deckbuilding and takes up a slot that could be almost literally anything else. I can think of at least 5 lands that would fit the deck better than it. As I said, I'd probably run a Mountain over it anytime. Command Beacon is better. Kher Keep is better. Any manland is better. See?
Also, having to pay 4 to draw a card is bad... you'll spend a turn just drawing that card, probably unable to play it until your next turn.
thanks
Yeah, I wonder how Beacon + Crucible goes
I've been thinking about testing Thought-Knot Seer and Warping Wail in the deck. We could really use a duress effect, and Wail can counter some stuff, kill elves, Confidants, Stoneforges and whatnot and ramp. They both seem really interesting. It's a shame Seer isn't an artifact, but that's ok.
so far i have few wincons (with my deck as is)
mindslaver lock
doom engine being sac'ed inumerous times
beatdown with the few available creatures
boredom/prison
lots of people seem to scoop after i go: tap pyro goggles, cast wildfire
no idea why..
The last two cards I added were Magmatic Insight and Pyromancer's Goggles, and they are proving less and less worthy. I'm also leaning towards cutting REB/Pyro, since my meta is not that blue.
I feel I need the graveyard removal cards, now that Reanimator is crawling back, High Tide is a thing and Meren has arrived. Also, the "flex slot" of the land that's been Arcane Lighthouse for a while should now be Command Beacon.
My last cut was Sensei's Divining Top :P. On a serious note, it was Magmatic Insight, since it's way worse under the new mulligan rule.
i wasnt running insight.. i run guess and voice nad its kinda ok for now
reb and pyro really should be meta calls
im still with pyro because of a pesky vendillion we have here
im beginning to think i need more mass remov / more removal / more LD / something alike
for now spine has really filled that slot for me because i can weld it back with daretti, welder, t4t, scrap mastery and some other stuff
so its kinda more versatile because i dont need to always hardcast it
lighthouse for beacon is a solid change
been looking for one since you suggested it last week..