I have been working on this decklist since the day i first saw her spoiled in Conspiracy. She is a work in progress and i am constantly changing cards in and out of the deck. I am hoping to use this thread as a way for players better then myself to give me some constructive criticism to perfect the list.
Deck Philosophy:
I am a deckbuilder at heart. I almost like building them more then actually playing them and Marchesa is the ultimate deckbuilders challenge (at least in duel commander she is). She has two extreamly powerful yet awkwardly situational abilities that make the deckbuilding process challenging. Giving all your creatures dethrone and the nature of dethrone is where the main difficulty lies. On one hand giving creatures +1/+1 counters makes you want to build towards a more agressive strategy (similariy to Drana, Liberator of Malakir) yet on the other hand an agressive strategy means you will likely have more life then your opponent and dethrone won't trigger as often (if at all). Another problem this creates is without at least one dethrone trigger Marchesa's second ability becomes irellivant. Fortunately there are a couple ways to remedy these problems. A) We have access to Black and its multitude of suicidal cards that require life as an additional payment or as a side effect. It sounds crazy but you want to hurt yourself enough to be both agressive and able to reliably trigger dethrone at the same time. B) We can use creatures that generate their own counters like Drana, Liberator of Malakir or Taurean Mauler to keep marchesa's second ability relevent even if we have more life then our opponent.
Another direction you could take the deck is to focus more on Marchesa's second ability to recur creatures in and out of the GY taking advantage of ETB effects like Snapcaster Mage and Vendillion Clique or LTB effects like Fulminator Mage and Corpse Augur. This is what the multiplayer marchesa decklists love to do and it can be powerful BUT you have to be very careful when attempting to build this direction in Duel Commander. The meta won't allow you enough time or give you permission to set up all the required pieces that enable creatures to blink in and out of play reliably (this is mainly because the meta has more draw go control decks). I recommend limiting the etb/ltb creatures to only the best of the best that way if you can't set everything up properly you're not stuck with a bunch of meh creatures that are underwhelming on their own.
I have pushed marchesa in many different directions like combo, midrange and aggro. personally I have had the most success with Aggro. Aggro in DC might sound crazy but Marchesa pulls it off.
i might want to bring down the creature count down to 25, even 20 if you can. Control and removal package has to be bigger. Hand disruption package should include duress
I'll try to go into more detail later, but here are a cards that I feel like will be either too slow to make an impact in a 1v1 game, or are fast enough but has not enough impact..
Simulacrum, Olivia, thrill-kill assassin, pilgrim eye, nihil spellbomb. I'd maximize all the signets as ramp. Duplicant is too slow for an impact that is dependent on an opponent's creatures. Kira is a nice piece but absolutely no synergy in the deck. You'll hate having her as a 3 drop. Your best protection from kill spells is hand disruption.
Im not a huge fan of duress. I cant tell you how many times i've played it against an opponent where they have nothing but lands and creatures. Then my opponent just top decks a swords to plowshares, Its also a horrable card to top deck in the late game. Nihil Spellbomb is basically a must include in all black decks imho. Against The Mimeoplasm or Sharuum it will save your life. I can kinda agree with the simulacrum. I used to run 25ish creatures and i found the deck would just die a horrable death against aggro. The extra creatures just mean more come into play effects to abuse with Marchesa. Duplicant is a bit slow its just nice to be able to repeatedly exile stuff but ill probably replace him as you suggest. Maybe ill try Wurmcoil Engine instead.The signets are ok but i dont think i really need that much ramp. I dont really see what you dont like about Kira. Imo anything that keeps Marchesa from being hit by swords to plowshares or path in responce to a board wipe like Jokelhaups is good. Im running every card i can to protect marchesa for that reason. I can agree on Pilgrams eye, It just has some nice mana fixing on a come into play effect that can be abused with Marchesa. I can agree with Olivia, i've never really had her do much, usually my opponent kills her before she can go to crazy. The reason i use thrill kill is because its agruably the best unleash card out there, but i could definately be convinced to replace her.
In a 1v1 format, especially in the current meta (yours might be different so it's your call) that runs really backbreaking equipment like jitte, swords, etc, and with tempo/aggro decks using winter orb and tangle wire, not to mention enchantments that are going to set you back to the stone age like parallax tide, duress is a very relevant card to play. It's never a waste. At worst, for 1 mana you get to scout your opponent's hand and anticipate. If you're good at estimating deck construction, addle is a good alternative.
For lands, I'd play more basics. there will be specific situations when basics will save you. 2 of each is fine. you can make them snow-covered if you're playing tainted pact, which you should. Think about it. Instant speed demonic tutor. At crunch time, the drawback will never outweigh the advantages. creeping tar pit is just more amazing in a 30 life format. cavern of souls for sure. And flamekin village is awful for 1v1. That's from firsthand experience. You know what's the business? Hall of the bandit lord. Haste. Pay 3 life. Win-win. Bojuka bog is a staple. It gives mana, and doubles up as grave hate. Having a nice set of utility lands like mentioned above makes expedition map worth putting. It's not as slow as i thought it was, and has won me a LOT of games in french, whether it be fetching for a cavern of souls against counter heavy decks, or a hall of the bandit lord for an early swing.
against aggro, your approach might have to go another direction.. Trying to match aggro in terms of quantity of creatures will just cause you to lose slower than help you win. I'd run more pinpoint removal instead of more creatures. lightning bolt should be an autoinclude. It hits players in the dome, it kills anything 3 toughness or less, and it hits planeswalkers. All at instant speed. 1v1 all star for sure. You missed out on the best sweeper Marchesa could possibly hope for: fire covenant. It's instant speed, one-sided and ensures you get to dethrone. Second best sweeper is also nowhere to be seen. living death.
nightscape familiar i think is great ramp. it makes pinpoint removal, counterspell etc cheaper. at 2 mana, you should consider it.
You need more sac outlets. That way they go to the grave in response to exile. It also makes stealing creatures more deadly, thanks to marchesa's text. Kira is i know great, but wasting a precious 3rd turn to set up protection (which is not absolute, by the way. a board wipe before you get to dethrone will set you back really far) is going to hold you back. I'd replace her with phyrexian altar. Viscera seer is indirect card advantage and a free outlet. I was a little against falkenrath aristocrat at first, but the flying/haste/sac outlet package for 4 mana is just sweet. With marchesa and a sac outlet out, cards like act of treason become great pieces for 1v1. Steal, swing, sacrifice.. Hello new creature. All for 3 mana.
If you really like cards like puppeteer clique, i would consider running thalakos deceiver instead.
Another dude with amazing milage for 4 mana is xiahou dun, the one-eyed. It has evasion, helps you recycle ANY black card from the grave, and with marchesa out, just nasty. Sac outlets also adds relevance to living death and will make it a menace. sakashima the impostor is the only clone that can literally be a second marchesa, and double dethrone is just nasty.
You seem to cite swords to plowshares a lot so white must be giving you a tough time. stormbreath dragon seems like a great fit. It could be your 5-drop of choice to go with either grimgrin or kiki-jiki. Not sure which is better. I might go for grimgrin, because if you'll follow my advice of running less creatures, kiki-jiki has less targets to duplicate.
You also need haste outlets to dethrone immediately. I cannot stress how smoother the deck runs with a consistent haste outlet. fervor is actually good. Giving haste to opponents tempts them to race with you, which will cause you to actually dethrone more often, probably every turn.
I think for the 1v1 approach, I'd go heavy control and disruption, and set up a clock with a few powerful creatures dethroning for the win. I take back stuff that I said about aggro.. I think you'll want your game to go like this.. First few turns is setting up sac outlets and disruption, removing annoying creatures along the way. Those that just swing at you and bring your life total down should be welcomed, because it means you can dethrone more times later.. Then you cast marchesa and dethrone.. THEN sweep. Then you have finishers like scourge of the throne and it's game, set, match. That way flavorwise, you even play the game like marchesa herself would.. Set your pieces, let your opponent strike first and make them feel like they have the upper hand.. Then dethrone. =)
This again is all merely an opinion, but I've played a lot of french and I feel this is the direction you might want to take her. Good luck playtesting!!
I used to run this deck a lot closer to the deck your describing, almost exactly as you describe it and i found it lost more then won. The problem i have with marchesa as a control deck is it wont beat other faster aggro decks period. Decks like Rafiq will kill you before you can even bat an eyelid, especually with her massichistic nature. I have basically learned that marchesa needs to lean a bit closer to midrange. My deck is more about using her second abilaty to out tempo aggro decks rather then out damage them. Basically im trying to throw out 4-5 creatures with +1/+1 counters on them, then blow up the board with a board wipe, hopefully hurting aggro far more then i hurt myself. Im not as big a fan of dealing crazy ammounts of damage to myself so sometimes i dont get +1/+1 counters from dethrone. Thata why i like using arcbound stinger. He is also nice because he can block creatures strapped to a sword every turn if you can protect marchesa well. Im not convinced this deck needs that drastic of a change, i feel like my current list is close and just needs to be tweeked here and there. Perhaps over time it will evolve into what your describing, but currently its more of a "synergy machine"
I can tell you've been working on this for quite a while. If you already went the direction I suggested and it didn't go well, then I would have to agree, midrange might be the healthy balance. If that's the case I'd add in rakdos cackler. although certain pieces I suggested still stand. thalakos deceiver over puppeteer clique, stormbreath dragon, nightscape familiar and a haste outlet or 2 is great. xiahou dun is still relevant, and marton stromgald is a great finisher. =)
Those are some good recommendations. Believe it or not i was using both stormbreath and thundermaw hellkite, and took them out to try the puppeteer clique and the demon. Ill probably put the stormbreath back as you said. I'm not 100% certain on the cackler but I think its worth testing as you said so ill give it a shot and see how it does. I used to run the nightscape familiar and its not bad, the only thing i didnt like was how often it was useless on colourless, mono black and spells with no converted mana cost like rakdos charm; crosis charm; terminate. Due to how often I found his ability useless I took him out. But as the deck changes if I run more spells his abilaty would discount then I would add him back in. Xiahou Dun, Definitely worth testing. I always thought he was a $100 card but now I see the promo goes for $50 and that's more affordable. As for Martin Stromgald, I see a few other decks using him but to be honest I don't understand why anyone would run him over Hero of Oxid Ridge doesn't he basically outclass him? Maybe I'm undervaluing the blocking buff?
Thalakos Deceiver: This exists?!?! I will find a place for it. I'll also see if I can find some more Haste outlets to add in. What creatures would you recommend using that would give haste? I have debated using Lightning Mauler what do you think? I really appreciate the time your putting into helping me out, I can just feel the deck getting better.
Thundermaw hellkite is relevant only if you have a lot of flying threats, so I'd stick with just stormbreath.
Marton stromgald highly depends on your creature base.. But swinging him with even just 2 other creatures is already a relevant pump. In my opinion better than hero of oxid ridge because marton makes your small threats bigger.
Haste outlets don't have to be creatures, but lightning mauler is a great idea. Hall of the bandit lord is the best haste outlet for a marchesa deck for sure.. I'd say hammer of purphoros or swiftfoot boots come next.
Yeah good point on nightscape familiar, a lot of good cards in the deck are actually black.
I still think more mana rocks for a consistent turn 3 marchesa is a good idea, unless you have already done this with zero success.
For 4 drops, yeah thalakos deceiver is nuts with dethrone and recursion. But sakashima the impostor making 2 marchesas or 2 scourge of the thrones late game, or even a second stormbreath dragon is amazing. I'd actually slot in sakashima over thalakos. The latter is less useful against creatureless decks.
Fire covenant is the *****. Does not get better than instant speed one-sided sweep for 3 mana. Better than toxic deluge in my experience, but in this deck i'd play both.
You know since you're playing unleash creatures, another awesome mechanic that is even more awesome with marchesa is bloodthirst. They can actually come back to life with counters if an opponent was dealt damage that turn. Think about it. stormblood berserker comes to mind, and bloodlord of vaasgoth can be a persistent 6/6 flier for 5 mana, and has synergy with falkenrath aristocrat... This turns creeping tar pit and shadowmage infiltrator into an all star.
I'm actually starting to dial back on the unleash creatures after a lot of your recommendations. I think Solrune has the right idea with lots of come into play effects. If i have time ill edit the decklist this weekend taking into consideration all of your help. I've never actually tried the bloodthirst creatures, they just always seemed underwhelming to me. Idk maybe ill try em someday, they just seem a bit to situational for my liking. Im not yet convinced with Sakashima but since you like it so much and theonecalledrune uses it, I will at least try it out and see how I like it in practice.
If that's the direction you want to take, I'd run a lot more tutors and sneak attack and maybe magus of the moon. Sneak attack is too sick not to add if you're going creature heavy. Based on piloting solrune's list, that enchantment together with marchesa is really what brings all the pieces together.
Ok, so i edited the deck today taking a lot of your recommendations into account. I added in Bojuka Bog over Nihil Spellbomb. Added in Cavern of Souls, Hall of the Bandit Lord. I figured with all these interesting lands that Tolaria West would be a good idea as well. Because you said I needed more sac outlets (which i have found as well through testing) I put Viscera Seer, Bloodflow Connoiseur and Dimir House Guard, the latter also because you said i need more tutors so he is kind of a 2 for 1. Because of your recommendation for more haste i put in Lightning Mauler and Ogre Battledriver. Other random cards i put in via your suggestions are Xiahou Dun, Sakashima, Remand and Duress. I also Increased the Mana Rocks to 6 as you recommended adding in Expedition Map, Coldsteel Heart, Dimir Signet and Rakdos Signet. Now one thing I'm tempted to do is Revert the Signets back to a Pilgrim's Eye and a Trinket Mage (which tutors for Great Furnace, Seat of the Synod and Vault of Whispers). You may disagree, but i think a lot of the other Marchesa Deck users like Solrune will agree with me that the more creatures you have turning sideways the better. What do you think of both the newer edited deck list and turning the signets into creatures? It sounds like you (yujipooji) have a lot more experience then me at actual dual tournaments so i really value your input.
Well as far as experience is concerned, french is all I play. It has the fun of EDH, but the competitiveness of standard and modern. I just love it. But as far as Marchesa herself is concerned, i think solrune and the other guys at that thread might know more about her than me. But as I said, in 1v1, playing the colors well is probably more important than playing the general. =)
Also, in french, format staples are important. These are pieces that don't really follow the theme of the deck, but are must-haves to keep up with the meta. I think for marchesa, it would be wasteland, all 9 fetchlands, and crucible of worlds. This gives you a lockout option, and fetching infinitely isn't a bad perk either. Another staple is the recently unbanned sensei's divining top. Works great with fetch lands, and really smooths the draw. Combined with viscera seer, can really make your card draws a dream come true.
Anyway, pilgrim's eye and trinket mage are good, and the mentality of more creatures turning sideways is right, BUT in french, the quality of the creatures turning sideways matter a LOT. In this case, I would still take them out and replace your artifact lands with snow covered. Because the best those 2 cards do is make your land drops consistently. The signets are actual ramp and can get marchesa or any 4 drop into play a turn early. And the mana cost of 3 vs 2 makes it a no brainer as well. Speed wins in duel commander, especially if you're not going for a heavy control route. phyrexian altar might replace bloodflow for me as an additional sac outlet. I like lightning mauler a lot, but not too sure about ogre battle driver. I'm not a fan of too many 4 drops competing with our general. I agree with tolaria west, and as for dimir house guard, he's a bit slow for my taste, but the 2 for 1 is difficult to argue with.
I won't lie, grixis is a color pie that is out of my comfort zone because I freaking hate blue. =p BUT I really want to make Marchesa duel competitive. I'm going to ask advice from a friend of mine here who has played a huge part in my development as a french player.. I'm sure his input will be invaluable. I might hold off first on critiquing the deck until I hear from him.. I might be unknowingly pulling you in the wrong direction, I'm not gonna lie that's still possible at this point. =(
Very important component of improvement is constant playtesting. Post whatever matchup data you have gathered from testing, because that becomes everyone's basis for adjustments.
Im not a huge fan of the phyrexian alter. I tried it, Ashnod's Alter and Goblin Bombardment and found that they all to do nothing for you if you dont have Marchesa out. As I said before i think you want to maximize your creatures turning sideways over having cards that just sit there on the field not even able to block.
I guess the concern i have with the covenant is just the sheer ammount of life you have to pay to wipe the board. If they have 2 5/5's and your at 10 life about the lose the game you dont want fire covenent to be in your hand. For example... Sharuum reanimates a magister sphinx. Another thing i dont like about the covenant is it's targeted damage and and anything with protection from black/red, shroud or hexproof will laugh in its face.
Im sorry if I keep bringing Sharuum and Rafiq into my example's. My friend pilots those 2 edh dual decks and we play almost every day on our lunch break where we work. Thats where 95% of my playtest info comes from.
Anyway, his rafiq deck can reliably kill you turn 6 if you lack blockers. Turns 4 or 5 if he's lucky. I found that stuff that just sits on the field doing nothing on its own, waiting to be part of a synergy is a great way for rafiq to ruin you. At least the connoisseur can chump block if your desperate. I realize its not the best card in the game but if you really need a sac outlet its not bad.
And seriously, i personally believe Kolaghans command is the best thing to happen in black red for a long time. Unlike the rakdos charm you get 2 choices making it an amazing 2 for one. I often find myself killing both a sword and a small creature like a mana dude with it. Worst case scenario its a lesser instant blightning doing 2 damage to your opponents face and making them discard a card. Discard is my Jam, and instant speed discard is VERY rare. Making an opponent discard a card at the end of their draw phase when they are in topdeck mode is awesome because you deny them of anything thats not instant speed.
Im not sold on the Ogre Battledriver yet eithor. I just saw someone suggest him on Solrune's thread and thought i would try him out. Its interesting to note that him and the flayer of the hatebound have a small synergy.
Another 4 drop I have had in and out of the deck is Abyssal Persecutor kinda nice considering all the sac outlets. Thoughts?
6/6 flier for 4 is worth testing for sure. You should complement your creatures with good creature removal, that's for sure. if fire covenant doesn't seem to be working for you, then by all means replace it.. My meta has no sharuum or rafiq so i guess you can find more suitable pieces. Again, i'll hold off on other suggestions till my "direct superior" gets back to me =p
"I think, Marchesa is poised in an interesting position.
First of all, let me start by saying Grixis is absolutely a viable build for the format - as a control deck. Most players use Thraximundar although I used Nicol Bolas for an old school flare as my finisher.
The problem I see with Marchesa is she wants to be a tempo build. But the R is superfluous here. Meaning, there's no upside to playing Marchesa and opening yourself up to nonbasic land hate, when you can play Sygg, River Cutthroat for the same archetype (and he is arguably better by providing a CA engine) while also having a more stable manabase.
It's funny, this is the opposite as to why Skullbriar is a bad commander when compared to Doran and Anafenza; the latter two get a lot of added value by adding W for premium removals, top end curve toppers (such as Hero of Bladehold or Elspeth, Knight-Errant) that just make the idea of "only" BG unfavourable. Back to the Marchesa discussion though, unfortunately there isn't any "must have" to justify adding R to a Sygg build."
He has a very good point. I look at grixis and I think control (hence my previous input) and I see Marchesa and she seems to be pulling me the opposite direction. Hence my temporary hesitation to continue commenting, and my urge to ask around. His reply kind of confirms my dilemma.. =(
BUT.. He's brought up something we can work with.. Sygg. At least we now know that 2/3 of marchesa's colors are tempo viable. I'll look up on how he's played, and I think splashing red into that build might play a bit more awkwardly than the dimir version mana-wise, BUT BUT BUT splashing utility red might just make it worth playing. In addition, non-basic land hate doesn't seem to be a concern for you, at least not yet. I don't think sharuum and rafiq do anything to non-basics..
When you find the time you might wanna read up on Sygg too and tell me what you think, I'll be doing the same. =) cheers!
I'm going to start here. http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=438
So apparently a good number of sygg decks have been successful internationally. =) What I would do with this is browse through the list and note the cards worth replacing with red, then play tempo. Not sure if this idea is up your alley, but it at least gives you options. =p
Update: I've been reading on the lists, and they look dangerous. I'm liking it. Splashing a bit of red is possible, it just requires manabase tweaking. But that would look like a direction I'd take marchesa. Red's contribution will probably be haste outlets and good burn. Cheap ones at that. Ogre battledriver might be too expensive. fervor or even mass hysteria (scary if rafiq is your opponent, but hey, with a counter/burn/removal, you can keep the board empty) is great to get things going ASAP. lightning bolt gets walkers, hell, it gets rafiq when he comes down. Then having marchesa mid or even late game makes the creatures more resilient. you can sweep with jokulhaups for the win. stormbreath dragon makes for a good finisher, still. true-name nemesis is going to do a lot of work as well. Again, kira is dead weight. I'd replace it with erayo, soratami ascendant.. With the tempo build, she'll be easy to flip. A good counter package stops sharuum's combos dead in its tracks, while giving your ground troops room to do their work. Then there's the disruption package, and I really think this is solid.
As a whole you go for cheap, but awesome creatures with great abilities, with a hefty control package to support, along with burn and haste outlets to clear the board and speed up your creatures, marchesa to make them resilient, then sweepers late game. That way you'll have some sort of a win-win situation. If you're ahead on life, then you're in the right place. If you're behind, dethrone puts you over the top.
Coz as far as your midrange build goes, the advice I've been giving you is the best I can do. I have no idea how I can take it to the next level, or even assess what level it's at right now. At least with the Dimir tempo + a splash of red, we know the dimir part has had A LOT of success (i've been looking at the decks it's been going against and it only consistently lost out to edric, who has been banned).. Just my two cents. Hope this helps!
Playing XU with three counters (two soft, even) is just asking for trouble. And there is no reason you shouldn't be playing Stifle - from a one cmc Stone Rain, to a time walk after blanking an equip cost, it isn't dead. Ever. There's no possible way you can justify not playing it. And since you're in the colours, Shadow of Doubt has proven an invaluable tempo card (commonly it's a second Stifle).
The key enchantment to your deck will be Unspeakable Symbol. This both keeps your guys coming back, and keeps Dethrone online. In a similar vein, I had success with the card when I still played Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch. Thought Gorger is a pretty solid beatstick/CA engine for this deck (note that you get the new hand if it leaves play, not just if it dies - this is important in any environment where bounce spells and Detention Sphere effects are at the top of the food chain.
Beautiful. Lifts my heart to see you here sir!! And agreed on fulminator mage. Again, blue being my waterloo, I cannot comment on stifle and shadow of doubt.. =))
First time in my life i've seen thought gorger, and he looks sick. The abilities are relevant, and marchesa welcomes anyone with their own way of putting +1/+1 counters on themselves.
Nice, fast, aggressive and red can be splashed in. razorfin hunter is good as it can ping opponents' mana dorks. And hell's thunder is amazing with marchesa out. Serendib Efreet is a fast amazing flier that can help turn dethrone on in a non-suicidal way. lightning mauler will do a lot of work here. keldon marauders!!!
Take note of the great instant and sorcery package, as well as the supplementary artifacts and walkers. tangle wire and the recently unbanned winter orb are tempo staples i believe.. crucible of worlds for sure. stifle and shadow of doubt makes an appearance in the list, as mentioned by 3drinks. The supplementary non-creature package is what will help the deck not only keep up, but do well in the format. We can add lightning bolt, the obligatory jokulhaups, and take out counterspells with double blue in them. rakdos charm puts a stop to graveyard shenanigans and is great to have, and an auto-include if Sharuum is one of your problems. I'm still going to look up what other red pieces can be added. The curve i believe will stop at 5, the exception being jokulhaups. All creatures except for a finisher like stormbreath dragon should be 4cmc below, 3 even. I'd just go back to that list in the link. It's pretty good. And the other cheap red pieces I mentioned makes em scary. I wouldn't go beyond 20-22 creatures.
Also, I'd run 36 lands. 37 even. 34 is just too dangerous.
I think even at this awkward experimental phase, running this tempo list will be able to edge out rafiq and sharuum. But again, playtesting is required.
I do not see unspeakable symbol in the list, and it's an auto-include for marchesa, no matter what the format.. I'd actually rather have that in over phyrexian arena, which might prove to be too slow for tempo (i would slot in read the bones). Symbol is one of the 2 reasons I actually want to add more tutors for, particularly gamble and tainted pact, to get it more consistently. The other reason is to be able to fetch jokulhaups for the grand finish.
Woah, just checked the thread and u guys have been busy helping me out, thank you both so much. I will try my best to address my opinions on the cards you're reccomending.
First things first. Marchesa, while amazing is often not on the field. Smart opponents deal with her asap. I am going to refrain from using any card that is ONLY amazing when the perfect combo is set up (marchesa + sac outlet + counters + creatures that abuse the recursion) and without the set-up is lackluster on its own.
Secondly while Sygg is an extremely powerful tempo commander, the way they gain the tempo advantage and play is pretty different. Sygg draws you a LOT of cards and those cards can be any card type so loading the deck with sorceries and instants is more viable then Marchesa. Marchesa gains tempo by making creatures more difficult to eliminate and by re-triggering come into play effects. Creatures with enters the battlefield or leaves the battlefield is what Marchesa NEEDS so the deck needs to be extreamly creature heavy. Karador is a good example of a general who is "creature-centric" his abilities like marchesa's require creatures and because of this most of the karador decks that are winning the 3 star tournaments are running close to 50 creatures with less then 20 non-creature spells. Now i realize that as a red/blue player i wont be able to do such an extreme ratio, however i will try to put in as many creatures as i'm able to get away with as i can.
Avalanche Riders: I have actually considered this card before and it's powerful. I will re-consider using it again. What does Fulminator Mage do for me that the Riders doesn't you ask? well is 1 mana cheaper to start. It curves nicely into marchesa playing it turn 3 then playing her turn 4, swing with the mage, get dethrone then sac after combat to blow up a land, then he comes back and you can either blow up a second land or wait till next turn to get another counter on him before sacking again. the problem with echo is you cant wait to play marchesa the turn after, in order to recycle the effect you HAVE to have marchesa out on your next upkeep or you just get 1 land. Again its not that hes a bad card, its just the mage is better.
Unspeakable Symbol another awesome card IF marchesa is out and havin fun, but its pretty underwhelming if your opponent is able keep Marchesa at bay. That being said it is a staple so i will give it another try. I dont have room for both this and the Arena so i will take Yuji's advice and replace it with the symbol.
Stifle: a really good card but i still think its more of a classic control card then an aggro or midrange one. Also i think you may be over-estimating it. You can only counter activated/triggered abilities, not spells, you cant counter stone rain or time walk with it. It simply stalls an ability for one turn. I find it a bit underwhelming tbh but a lot of pro's use it so i guess i should try it.
Fervor/Mass Hysteria: Good cards but not creatures. I would rather see 3 creatures in my opening hand over one creature, a fervor and an unspeakable symbol. if you don't have any creatures in your opening hand because its full of counters, removal and enchantments then marchesa cant do her job keeping all those creatures you were supposed to play turn 1-3 alive and recycling their abilities with sac outlets. I realize that solrune's list is geared towards multiplayer but he really does have the right idea. I know he agree's that you want to stuff as many creatures into the deck as possible.
Thought Gorger: I dont get it...why would I run him over another creature with large stats like abyssal persecutor? if you're in topdeck mode he doesn't get any counters. Early game he gets rid of your hand so your counters that you need to prevent your opponents from going off or ruining your board position are gone. what am i not seeing that you are?
Yuji, i do run 37 lands, idk why u thought i was running 34. Maybe you weren't counting that there are 2 of each basic land?
3Drinks. Im not running any x cost counters so im not sure what you meant there. Unless u mean counter unless they pay x but even then im only running the one mana leak.
all those tutors and card draw you want me to run like read the bones is good but again A) not creatures B) if you go to overboard with them you end up drawing into more card draw. I'm running 10 card advantage cards as it is, any more is a bit overkill.
Stormbreath Dragon/True-Name Nemesis: both amazingly solid cards. I have debated using them time and time again. I will try to find a spot to put them back in. The only reason i took them out is because i didn't know what else to take out to fit them in. When push came to shove i decided that because they don't really synergize with marchesa particularly well i took them out for stuff that do.
Winter Orb is an interesting Idea but idk if this is the type of deck is accels in or not. My gut reaction thinks that you would want to run green and have a lot of mana dorks like lanowar elves so that you dont punish yourself as well.
Shadow of Doubt: it seems like a cheaper more situational exclude that targets tutors instead of creatures.I believe this is meant to chill in your hand with a bunch of other counterspells like exclude and negate and you just choose the correct counter based on what your opponent casts. I dont think this strategy works very well when your tapping out often to play your creature spells.
Yuji, I hope you dont think im just being a dick shooting down all your idea's. I'm just trying to express that my deck's general strategy works, it just needs slight perfecting here and there. Maybe a couple more counters, maybe more or less ramp, maybe the curve could be a bit more efficient.
3Drinks, its really nice to see a new person on here. I appreciate your time and input!
Woah, just checked the thread and u guys have been busy helping me out, thank you both so much. I will try my best to address my opinions on the cards you're reccomending.
First things first. Marchesa, while amazing is often not on the field. Smart opponents deal with her asap. I am going to refrain from using any card that is ONLY amazing when the perfect combo is set up (marchesa + sac outlet + counters + creatures that abuse the recursion) and without the set-up is lackluster on its own.
Secondly while Sygg is an extremely powerful tempo commander, the way they gain the tempo advantage and play is pretty different. Sygg draws you a LOT of cards and those cards can be any card type so loading the deck with sorceries and instants is more viable then Marchesa. Marchesa gains tempo by making creatures more difficult to eliminate and by re-triggering come into play effects. Creatures with enters the battlefield or leaves the battlefield is what Marchesa NEEDS so the deck needs to be extreamly creature heavy. Karador is a good example of a general who is "creature-centric" his abilities like marchesa's require creatures and because of this most of the karador decks that are winning the 3 star tournaments are running close to 50 creatures with less then 20 non-creature spells. Now i realize that as a red/blue player i wont be able to do such an extreme ratio, however i will try to put in as many creatures as i'm able to get away with as i can.
Avalanche Riders: I have actually considered this card before and it's powerful. I will re-consider using it again. What does Fulminator Mage do for me that the Riders doesn't you ask? well is 1 mana cheaper to start. It curves nicely into marchesa playing it turn 3 then playing her turn 4, swing with the mage, get dethrone then sac after combat to blow up a land, then he comes back and you can either blow up a second land or wait till next turn to get another counter on him before sacking again. the problem with echo is you cant wait to play marchesa the turn after, in order to recycle the effect you HAVE to have marchesa out on your next upkeep or you just get 1 land. Again its not that hes a bad card, its just the mage is better.
Unspeakable Symbol another awesome card IF marchesa is out and havin fun, but its pretty underwhelming if your opponent is able keep Marchesa at bay. That being said it is a staple so i will give it another try. I dont have room for both this and the Arena so i will take Yuji's advice and replace it with the symbol.
Stifle: a really good card but i still think its more of a classic control card then an aggro or midrange one. Also i think you may be over-estimating it. You can only counter activated/triggered abilities, not spells, you cant counter stone rain or time walk with it. It simply stalls an ability for one turn. I find it a bit underwhelming tbh but a lot of pro's use it so i guess i should try it.
Fervor/Mass Hysteria: Good cards but not creatures. I would rather see 3 creatures in my opening hand over one creature, a fervor and an unspeakable symbol. if you don't have any creatures in your opening hand because its full of counters, removal and enchantments then marchesa cant do her job keeping all those creatures you were supposed to play turn 1-3 alive and recycling their abilities with sac outlets. I realize that solrune's list is geared towards multiplayer but he really does have the right idea. I know he agree's that you want to stuff as many creatures into the deck as possible.
Thought Gorger: I dont get it...why would I run him over another creature with large stats like abyssal persecutor? if you're in topdeck mode he doesn't get any counters. Early game he gets rid of your hand so your counters that you need to prevent your opponents from going off or ruining your board position are gone. what am i not seeing that you are?
Yuji, i do run 37 lands, idk why u thought i was running 34. Maybe you weren't counting that there are 2 of each basic land?
3Drinks. Im not running any x cost counters so im not sure what you meant there. Unless u mean counter unless they pay x but even then im only running the one mana leak.
all those tutors and card draw you want me to run like read the bones is good but again A) not creatures B) if you go to overboard with them you end up drawing into more card draw. I'm running 10 card advantage cards as it is, any more is a bit overkill.
Stormbreath Dragon/True-Name Nemesis: both amazingly solid cards. I have debated using them time and time again. I will try to find a spot to put them back in. The only reason i took them out is because i didn't know what else to take out to fit them in. When push came to shove i decided that because they don't really synergize with marchesa particularly well i took them out for stuff that do.
Winter Orb is an interesting Idea but idk if this is the type of deck is accels in or not. My gut reaction thinks that you would want to run green and have a lot of mana dorks like lanowar elves so that you dont punish yourself as well.
Shadow of Doubt: it seems like a cheaper more situational exclude that targets tutors instead of creatures.I believe this is meant to chill in your hand with a bunch of other counterspells like exclude and negate and you just choose the correct counter based on what your opponent casts. I dont think this strategy works very well when your tapping out often to play your creature spells.
Yuji, I hope you dont think im just being a dick shooting down all your idea's. I'm just trying to express that my deck's general strategy works, it just needs slight perfecting here and there. Maybe a couple more counters, maybe more or less ramp, maybe the curve could be a bit more efficient.
3Drinks, its really nice to see a new person on here. I appreciate your time and input!
No problem sir!! You are the pilot here, not me. That's EXACTLY why I called in a duel expert, because I feel like I'm unable to help you in the way that you want me to =( So don't worry, you're the one playing so you know better. =) Perhaps someday I can try to playtest tempo Marchesa and give you some playtest data because my meta is quite scary (marath, geist, anafenza, etc) but unfortunately I'm still trying to perfect duel Kaalia c/o 3drinks and I really want to try out his Mono-red zurgo bellstriker build as well. Anyway keep posting updates here and how they go, I'm sure you'll find help here. =) If you have questions on how good an individual card is vs another, I can probably still be of use to you that way.
Good luck!!
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Deck Philosophy:
I am a deckbuilder at heart. I almost like building them more then actually playing them and Marchesa is the ultimate deckbuilders challenge (at least in duel commander she is). She has two extreamly powerful yet awkwardly situational abilities that make the deckbuilding process challenging. Giving all your creatures dethrone and the nature of dethrone is where the main difficulty lies. On one hand giving creatures +1/+1 counters makes you want to build towards a more agressive strategy (similariy to Drana, Liberator of Malakir) yet on the other hand an agressive strategy means you will likely have more life then your opponent and dethrone won't trigger as often (if at all). Another problem this creates is without at least one dethrone trigger Marchesa's second ability becomes irellivant. Fortunately there are a couple ways to remedy these problems. A) We have access to Black and its multitude of suicidal cards that require life as an additional payment or as a side effect. It sounds crazy but you want to hurt yourself enough to be both agressive and able to reliably trigger dethrone at the same time. B) We can use creatures that generate their own counters like Drana, Liberator of Malakir or Taurean Mauler to keep marchesa's second ability relevent even if we have more life then our opponent.
Another direction you could take the deck is to focus more on Marchesa's second ability to recur creatures in and out of the GY taking advantage of ETB effects like Snapcaster Mage and Vendillion Clique or LTB effects like Fulminator Mage and Corpse Augur. This is what the multiplayer marchesa decklists love to do and it can be powerful BUT you have to be very careful when attempting to build this direction in Duel Commander. The meta won't allow you enough time or give you permission to set up all the required pieces that enable creatures to blink in and out of play reliably (this is mainly because the meta has more draw go control decks). I recommend limiting the etb/ltb creatures to only the best of the best that way if you can't set everything up properly you're not stuck with a bunch of meh creatures that are underwhelming on their own.
I have pushed marchesa in many different directions like combo, midrange and aggro. personally I have had the most success with Aggro. Aggro in DC might sound crazy but Marchesa pulls it off.
4 Marchesa, the Black Rose
Lands (39)
0 Ancient Ziggurat
0 Arid Mesa
0 Badlands
0 Blackcleave Cliffs
0 Blighted Fen
0 Blood Crypt
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Cascade Bluffs
0 Cavern of Souls
0 City of Brass
0 Command Tower
0 Contested War Zone
0 Creeping Tar Pit
0 Darkslick Shores
0 Flooded Strand
0 Graven Cairns
0 High Market
0 Island
0 Mana Confluence
0 Marsh Flats
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Mountain
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Shivan Reef
0 Steam Vents
0 Sulfurous Springs
0 Sunken Ruins
0 Swamp
0 Tarnished Citadel
0 Underground River
0 Underground Sea
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Volcanic Island
0 Wasteland
0 Watery Grave
0 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodsoaked Champion
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Carnophage
1 Cloudfin Raptor
1 Cursecatcher
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Goblin Guide
1 Phantasmal Bear
1 Rakdos Cackler
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Zurgo Bellstriker
2 Baleful Strix
2 Bloodghast
2 Dark Confidant
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Flesh Reaver
2 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Oona's Blackguard
2 Oona's Prowler
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stormblood Berserker
2 War-Name Aspirant
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
3 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
3 Sedraxis Specter
3 Sin Prodder
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Hellrider
4 Hero of Oxid Ridge
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Burning Spear
2 Incinerate
2 Lightning Strike
3 Fire Covenant
3 Kolaghan's Command
8 Dig Through Time
Sorceries (9)
1 Chain Lightning
1 Duress
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Inquisition of Kosilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Sinkhole
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Painful Truths
8 Treasure Cruise
Enchantments (2)
2 Bitterblossom
3 Spellshock
Artifacts (3)
1 Skullclamp
2 Captain's Claws
3 Grafted Wargear
Planeswalkers (1)
3 Liliana of the Veil
I would love to see other peoples (duel commander) marchesa decks so please post some lists. It gives me inspiration!
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I'll try to go into more detail later, but here are a cards that I feel like will be either too slow to make an impact in a 1v1 game, or are fast enough but has not enough impact..
Simulacrum, Olivia, thrill-kill assassin, pilgrim eye, nihil spellbomb. I'd maximize all the signets as ramp. Duplicant is too slow for an impact that is dependent on an opponent's creatures. Kira is a nice piece but absolutely no synergy in the deck. You'll hate having her as a 3 drop. Your best protection from kill spells is hand disruption.
That's all for now, i'll comment more soon.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
For lands, I'd play more basics. there will be specific situations when basics will save you. 2 of each is fine. you can make them snow-covered if you're playing tainted pact, which you should. Think about it. Instant speed demonic tutor. At crunch time, the drawback will never outweigh the advantages. creeping tar pit is just more amazing in a 30 life format. cavern of souls for sure. And flamekin village is awful for 1v1. That's from firsthand experience. You know what's the business? Hall of the bandit lord. Haste. Pay 3 life. Win-win. Bojuka bog is a staple. It gives mana, and doubles up as grave hate. Having a nice set of utility lands like mentioned above makes expedition map worth putting. It's not as slow as i thought it was, and has won me a LOT of games in french, whether it be fetching for a cavern of souls against counter heavy decks, or a hall of the bandit lord for an early swing.
against aggro, your approach might have to go another direction.. Trying to match aggro in terms of quantity of creatures will just cause you to lose slower than help you win. I'd run more pinpoint removal instead of more creatures. lightning bolt should be an autoinclude. It hits players in the dome, it kills anything 3 toughness or less, and it hits planeswalkers. All at instant speed. 1v1 all star for sure. You missed out on the best sweeper Marchesa could possibly hope for: fire covenant. It's instant speed, one-sided and ensures you get to dethrone. Second best sweeper is also nowhere to be seen. living death.
nightscape familiar i think is great ramp. it makes pinpoint removal, counterspell etc cheaper. at 2 mana, you should consider it.
You need more sac outlets. That way they go to the grave in response to exile. It also makes stealing creatures more deadly, thanks to marchesa's text. Kira is i know great, but wasting a precious 3rd turn to set up protection (which is not absolute, by the way. a board wipe before you get to dethrone will set you back really far) is going to hold you back. I'd replace her with phyrexian altar. Viscera seer is indirect card advantage and a free outlet. I was a little against falkenrath aristocrat at first, but the flying/haste/sac outlet package for 4 mana is just sweet. With marchesa and a sac outlet out, cards like act of treason become great pieces for 1v1. Steal, swing, sacrifice.. Hello new creature. All for 3 mana.
If you really like cards like puppeteer clique, i would consider running thalakos deceiver instead.
Another dude with amazing milage for 4 mana is xiahou dun, the one-eyed. It has evasion, helps you recycle ANY black card from the grave, and with marchesa out, just nasty. Sac outlets also adds relevance to living death and will make it a menace. sakashima the impostor is the only clone that can literally be a second marchesa, and double dethrone is just nasty.
You seem to cite swords to plowshares a lot so white must be giving you a tough time. stormbreath dragon seems like a great fit. It could be your 5-drop of choice to go with either grimgrin or kiki-jiki. Not sure which is better. I might go for grimgrin, because if you'll follow my advice of running less creatures, kiki-jiki has less targets to duplicate.
You also need haste outlets to dethrone immediately. I cannot stress how smoother the deck runs with a consistent haste outlet. fervor is actually good. Giving haste to opponents tempts them to race with you, which will cause you to actually dethrone more often, probably every turn.
Deck needs a LOT more control and a bit more ramp..
glen elendra archmage should make way for cryptic command..
skullclamp should be replaced by a mana rock. I really think running 6 will make the deck speed hard to cope with. A turn 3 marchesa makes the deck scarier.
kolaghan's command should be replaced with rakdos charm. less mana, more utility.
fleshbag marauder should replace flesh carver
arcbound stinger and voidmage prodigy should be replaced with hard counters or removal
trinket mage for anything =))
thrill kill for gilded drake
I like baleful stryx phantasmal image. Good call =)
I think for the 1v1 approach, I'd go heavy control and disruption, and set up a clock with a few powerful creatures dethroning for the win. I take back stuff that I said about aggro.. I think you'll want your game to go like this.. First few turns is setting up sac outlets and disruption, removing annoying creatures along the way. Those that just swing at you and bring your life total down should be welcomed, because it means you can dethrone more times later.. Then you cast marchesa and dethrone.. THEN sweep. Then you have finishers like scourge of the throne and it's game, set, match. That way flavorwise, you even play the game like marchesa herself would.. Set your pieces, let your opponent strike first and make them feel like they have the upper hand.. Then dethrone. =)
This again is all merely an opinion, but I've played a lot of french and I feel this is the direction you might want to take her. Good luck playtesting!!
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Thalakos Deceiver: This exists?!?! I will find a place for it. I'll also see if I can find some more Haste outlets to add in. What creatures would you recommend using that would give haste? I have debated using Lightning Mauler what do you think? I really appreciate the time your putting into helping me out, I can just feel the deck getting better.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Marton stromgald highly depends on your creature base.. But swinging him with even just 2 other creatures is already a relevant pump. In my opinion better than hero of oxid ridge because marton makes your small threats bigger.
Haste outlets don't have to be creatures, but lightning mauler is a great idea. Hall of the bandit lord is the best haste outlet for a marchesa deck for sure.. I'd say hammer of purphoros or swiftfoot boots come next.
Yeah good point on nightscape familiar, a lot of good cards in the deck are actually black.
I still think more mana rocks for a consistent turn 3 marchesa is a good idea, unless you have already done this with zero success.
For 4 drops, yeah thalakos deceiver is nuts with dethrone and recursion. But sakashima the impostor making 2 marchesas or 2 scourge of the thrones late game, or even a second stormbreath dragon is amazing. I'd actually slot in sakashima over thalakos. The latter is less useful against creatureless decks.
Fire covenant is the *****. Does not get better than instant speed one-sided sweep for 3 mana. Better than toxic deluge in my experience, but in this deck i'd play both.
You know since you're playing unleash creatures, another awesome mechanic that is even more awesome with marchesa is bloodthirst. They can actually come back to life with counters if an opponent was dealt damage that turn. Think about it. stormblood berserker comes to mind, and bloodlord of vaasgoth can be a persistent 6/6 flier for 5 mana, and has synergy with falkenrath aristocrat... This turns creeping tar pit and shadowmage infiltrator into an all star.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Also, in french, format staples are important. These are pieces that don't really follow the theme of the deck, but are must-haves to keep up with the meta. I think for marchesa, it would be wasteland, all 9 fetchlands, and crucible of worlds. This gives you a lockout option, and fetching infinitely isn't a bad perk either. Another staple is the recently unbanned sensei's divining top. Works great with fetch lands, and really smooths the draw. Combined with viscera seer, can really make your card draws a dream come true.
Anyway, pilgrim's eye and trinket mage are good, and the mentality of more creatures turning sideways is right, BUT in french, the quality of the creatures turning sideways matter a LOT. In this case, I would still take them out and replace your artifact lands with snow covered. Because the best those 2 cards do is make your land drops consistently. The signets are actual ramp and can get marchesa or any 4 drop into play a turn early. And the mana cost of 3 vs 2 makes it a no brainer as well. Speed wins in duel commander, especially if you're not going for a heavy control route. phyrexian altar might replace bloodflow for me as an additional sac outlet. I like lightning mauler a lot, but not too sure about ogre battle driver. I'm not a fan of too many 4 drops competing with our general. I agree with tolaria west, and as for dimir house guard, he's a bit slow for my taste, but the 2 for 1 is difficult to argue with.
fire covenant.. I will never stop recommending this =)) you can live without kolaghan's command i'm sure =)
I won't lie, grixis is a color pie that is out of my comfort zone because I freaking hate blue. =p BUT I really want to make Marchesa duel competitive. I'm going to ask advice from a friend of mine here who has played a huge part in my development as a french player.. I'm sure his input will be invaluable. I might hold off first on critiquing the deck until I hear from him.. I might be unknowingly pulling you in the wrong direction, I'm not gonna lie that's still possible at this point. =(
Very important component of improvement is constant playtesting. Post whatever matchup data you have gathered from testing, because that becomes everyone's basis for adjustments.
I guess the concern i have with the covenant is just the sheer ammount of life you have to pay to wipe the board. If they have 2 5/5's and your at 10 life about the lose the game you dont want fire covenent to be in your hand. For example... Sharuum reanimates a magister sphinx. Another thing i dont like about the covenant is it's targeted damage and and anything with protection from black/red, shroud or hexproof will laugh in its face.
Im sorry if I keep bringing Sharuum and Rafiq into my example's. My friend pilots those 2 edh dual decks and we play almost every day on our lunch break where we work. Thats where 95% of my playtest info comes from.
Anyway, his rafiq deck can reliably kill you turn 6 if you lack blockers. Turns 4 or 5 if he's lucky. I found that stuff that just sits on the field doing nothing on its own, waiting to be part of a synergy is a great way for rafiq to ruin you. At least the connoisseur can chump block if your desperate. I realize its not the best card in the game but if you really need a sac outlet its not bad.
And seriously, i personally believe Kolaghans command is the best thing to happen in black red for a long time. Unlike the rakdos charm you get 2 choices making it an amazing 2 for one. I often find myself killing both a sword and a small creature like a mana dude with it. Worst case scenario its a lesser instant blightning doing 2 damage to your opponents face and making them discard a card. Discard is my Jam, and instant speed discard is VERY rare. Making an opponent discard a card at the end of their draw phase when they are in topdeck mode is awesome because you deny them of anything thats not instant speed.
Im not sold on the Ogre Battledriver yet eithor. I just saw someone suggest him on Solrune's thread and thought i would try him out. Its interesting to note that him and the flayer of the hatebound have a small synergy.
Another 4 drop I have had in and out of the deck is Abyssal Persecutor kinda nice considering all the sac outlets. Thoughts?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
"I think, Marchesa is poised in an interesting position.
First of all, let me start by saying Grixis is absolutely a viable build for the format - as a control deck. Most players use Thraximundar although I used Nicol Bolas for an old school flare as my finisher.
The problem I see with Marchesa is she wants to be a tempo build. But the R is superfluous here. Meaning, there's no upside to playing Marchesa and opening yourself up to nonbasic land hate, when you can play Sygg, River Cutthroat for the same archetype (and he is arguably better by providing a CA engine) while also having a more stable manabase.
It's funny, this is the opposite as to why Skullbriar is a bad commander when compared to Doran and Anafenza; the latter two get a lot of added value by adding W for premium removals, top end curve toppers (such as Hero of Bladehold or Elspeth, Knight-Errant) that just make the idea of "only" BG unfavourable. Back to the Marchesa discussion though, unfortunately there isn't any "must have" to justify adding R to a Sygg build."
He has a very good point. I look at grixis and I think control (hence my previous input) and I see Marchesa and she seems to be pulling me the opposite direction. Hence my temporary hesitation to continue commenting, and my urge to ask around. His reply kind of confirms my dilemma.. =(
BUT.. He's brought up something we can work with.. Sygg. At least we now know that 2/3 of marchesa's colors are tempo viable. I'll look up on how he's played, and I think splashing red into that build might play a bit more awkwardly than the dimir version mana-wise, BUT BUT BUT splashing utility red might just make it worth playing. In addition, non-basic land hate doesn't seem to be a concern for you, at least not yet. I don't think sharuum and rafiq do anything to non-basics..
When you find the time you might wanna read up on Sygg too and tell me what you think, I'll be doing the same. =) cheers!
So apparently a good number of sygg decks have been successful internationally. =) What I would do with this is browse through the list and note the cards worth replacing with red, then play tempo. Not sure if this idea is up your alley, but it at least gives you options. =p
Update: I've been reading on the lists, and they look dangerous. I'm liking it. Splashing a bit of red is possible, it just requires manabase tweaking. But that would look like a direction I'd take marchesa. Red's contribution will probably be haste outlets and good burn. Cheap ones at that. Ogre battledriver might be too expensive. fervor or even mass hysteria (scary if rafiq is your opponent, but hey, with a counter/burn/removal, you can keep the board empty) is great to get things going ASAP. lightning bolt gets walkers, hell, it gets rafiq when he comes down. Then having marchesa mid or even late game makes the creatures more resilient. you can sweep with jokulhaups for the win. stormbreath dragon makes for a good finisher, still. true-name nemesis is going to do a lot of work as well. Again, kira is dead weight. I'd replace it with erayo, soratami ascendant.. With the tempo build, she'll be easy to flip. A good counter package stops sharuum's combos dead in its tracks, while giving your ground troops room to do their work. Then there's the disruption package, and I really think this is solid.
As a whole you go for cheap, but awesome creatures with great abilities, with a hefty control package to support, along with burn and haste outlets to clear the board and speed up your creatures, marchesa to make them resilient, then sweepers late game. That way you'll have some sort of a win-win situation. If you're ahead on life, then you're in the right place. If you're behind, dethrone puts you over the top.
Coz as far as your midrange build goes, the advice I've been giving you is the best I can do. I have no idea how I can take it to the next level, or even assess what level it's at right now. At least with the Dimir tempo + a splash of red, we know the dimir part has had A LOT of success (i've been looking at the decks it's been going against and it only consistently lost out to edric, who has been banned).. Just my two cents. Hope this helps!
What is Fulminator Mage doing for you that Avalanche Riders are not?
The key enchantment to your deck will be Unspeakable Symbol. This both keeps your guys coming back, and keeps Dethrone online. In a similar vein, I had success with the card when I still played Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch. Thought Gorger is a pretty solid beatstick/CA engine for this deck (note that you get the new hand if it leaves play, not just if it dies - this is important in any environment where bounce spells and Detention Sphere effects are at the top of the food chain.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
First time in my life i've seen thought gorger, and he looks sick. The abilities are relevant, and marchesa welcomes anyone with their own way of putting +1/+1 counters on themselves.
Nice, fast, aggressive and red can be splashed in. razorfin hunter is good as it can ping opponents' mana dorks. And hell's thunder is amazing with marchesa out. Serendib Efreet is a fast amazing flier that can help turn dethrone on in a non-suicidal way. lightning mauler will do a lot of work here. keldon marauders!!!
Take note of the great instant and sorcery package, as well as the supplementary artifacts and walkers. tangle wire and the recently unbanned winter orb are tempo staples i believe.. crucible of worlds for sure. stifle and shadow of doubt makes an appearance in the list, as mentioned by 3drinks. The supplementary non-creature package is what will help the deck not only keep up, but do well in the format. We can add lightning bolt, the obligatory jokulhaups, and take out counterspells with double blue in them. rakdos charm puts a stop to graveyard shenanigans and is great to have, and an auto-include if Sharuum is one of your problems. I'm still going to look up what other red pieces can be added. The curve i believe will stop at 5, the exception being jokulhaups. All creatures except for a finisher like stormbreath dragon should be 4cmc below, 3 even. I'd just go back to that list in the link. It's pretty good. And the other cheap red pieces I mentioned makes em scary. I wouldn't go beyond 20-22 creatures.
Also, I'd run 36 lands. 37 even. 34 is just too dangerous.
I think even at this awkward experimental phase, running this tempo list will be able to edge out rafiq and sharuum. But again, playtesting is required.
First things first. Marchesa, while amazing is often not on the field. Smart opponents deal with her asap. I am going to refrain from using any card that is ONLY amazing when the perfect combo is set up (marchesa + sac outlet + counters + creatures that abuse the recursion) and without the set-up is lackluster on its own.
Secondly while Sygg is an extremely powerful tempo commander, the way they gain the tempo advantage and play is pretty different. Sygg draws you a LOT of cards and those cards can be any card type so loading the deck with sorceries and instants is more viable then Marchesa. Marchesa gains tempo by making creatures more difficult to eliminate and by re-triggering come into play effects. Creatures with enters the battlefield or leaves the battlefield is what Marchesa NEEDS so the deck needs to be extreamly creature heavy. Karador is a good example of a general who is "creature-centric" his abilities like marchesa's require creatures and because of this most of the karador decks that are winning the 3 star tournaments are running close to 50 creatures with less then 20 non-creature spells. Now i realize that as a red/blue player i wont be able to do such an extreme ratio, however i will try to put in as many creatures as i'm able to get away with as i can.
Avalanche Riders: I have actually considered this card before and it's powerful. I will re-consider using it again. What does Fulminator Mage do for me that the Riders doesn't you ask? well is 1 mana cheaper to start. It curves nicely into marchesa playing it turn 3 then playing her turn 4, swing with the mage, get dethrone then sac after combat to blow up a land, then he comes back and you can either blow up a second land or wait till next turn to get another counter on him before sacking again. the problem with echo is you cant wait to play marchesa the turn after, in order to recycle the effect you HAVE to have marchesa out on your next upkeep or you just get 1 land. Again its not that hes a bad card, its just the mage is better.
Unspeakable Symbol another awesome card IF marchesa is out and havin fun, but its pretty underwhelming if your opponent is able keep Marchesa at bay. That being said it is a staple so i will give it another try. I dont have room for both this and the Arena so i will take Yuji's advice and replace it with the symbol.
Stifle: a really good card but i still think its more of a classic control card then an aggro or midrange one. Also i think you may be over-estimating it. You can only counter activated/triggered abilities, not spells, you cant counter stone rain or time walk with it. It simply stalls an ability for one turn. I find it a bit underwhelming tbh but a lot of pro's use it so i guess i should try it.
Fervor/Mass Hysteria: Good cards but not creatures. I would rather see 3 creatures in my opening hand over one creature, a fervor and an unspeakable symbol. if you don't have any creatures in your opening hand because its full of counters, removal and enchantments then marchesa cant do her job keeping all those creatures you were supposed to play turn 1-3 alive and recycling their abilities with sac outlets. I realize that solrune's list is geared towards multiplayer but he really does have the right idea. I know he agree's that you want to stuff as many creatures into the deck as possible.
Thought Gorger: I dont get it...why would I run him over another creature with large stats like abyssal persecutor? if you're in topdeck mode he doesn't get any counters. Early game he gets rid of your hand so your counters that you need to prevent your opponents from going off or ruining your board position are gone. what am i not seeing that you are?
Yuji, i do run 37 lands, idk why u thought i was running 34. Maybe you weren't counting that there are 2 of each basic land?
3Drinks. Im not running any x cost counters so im not sure what you meant there. Unless u mean counter unless they pay x but even then im only running the one mana leak.
all those tutors and card draw you want me to run like read the bones is good but again A) not creatures B) if you go to overboard with them you end up drawing into more card draw. I'm running 10 card advantage cards as it is, any more is a bit overkill.
Stormbreath Dragon/True-Name Nemesis: both amazingly solid cards. I have debated using them time and time again. I will try to find a spot to put them back in. The only reason i took them out is because i didn't know what else to take out to fit them in. When push came to shove i decided that because they don't really synergize with marchesa particularly well i took them out for stuff that do.
Winter Orb is an interesting Idea but idk if this is the type of deck is accels in or not. My gut reaction thinks that you would want to run green and have a lot of mana dorks like lanowar elves so that you dont punish yourself as well.
Shadow of Doubt: it seems like a cheaper more situational exclude that targets tutors instead of creatures.I believe this is meant to chill in your hand with a bunch of other counterspells like exclude and negate and you just choose the correct counter based on what your opponent casts. I dont think this strategy works very well when your tapping out often to play your creature spells.
Yuji, I hope you dont think im just being a dick shooting down all your idea's. I'm just trying to express that my deck's general strategy works, it just needs slight perfecting here and there. Maybe a couple more counters, maybe more or less ramp, maybe the curve could be a bit more efficient.
3Drinks, its really nice to see a new person on here. I appreciate your time and input!
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
No problem sir!! You are the pilot here, not me. That's EXACTLY why I called in a duel expert, because I feel like I'm unable to help you in the way that you want me to =( So don't worry, you're the one playing so you know better. =) Perhaps someday I can try to playtest tempo Marchesa and give you some playtest data because my meta is quite scary (marath, geist, anafenza, etc) but unfortunately I'm still trying to perfect duel Kaalia c/o 3drinks and I really want to try out his Mono-red zurgo bellstriker build as well. Anyway keep posting updates here and how they go, I'm sure you'll find help here. =) If you have questions on how good an individual card is vs another, I can probably still be of use to you that way.
Good luck!!