Balangaz, Thanks for the input. Yujipooji and 3 drinks have given me a lot of advice and i have a lot of changes to make on my list. Mainly more counters.
Vendillion Clique: i will add it to the list. If i had a copy i would use it for sure.
Black sun's zenith: works just fine, you may not be aware of how state based checks work with +1 and -1 counters. When marchesa with a +1 counter on it, gets enough -1 counters to kill her, her last moment of exisence had both a +1 and a -1 counter. Then the counters negate each other and she dies all at once. But because she does in fact have a +1 counter when she dies she will come back the the end of turn.
Gitaxian Probe. Good Idea, the trick is figuring out what to take out for it.
Remand will become either a spell pierce or just the probe mentioned above.
Im hesitant to put in wildfire because im worried it will give green decks an advantage over me.
Avalance Riders: ok, i have seen him in other lists and you're the 3rd person to tell me i should be running him so i will take out Olivia Vildaren for him
Im not a fan of all the little guys that get brought back. I find that there is usually enough graveyard hate in decks to make them useless. I find they just die over and over again without making much of a difference. Especually the ones that cant even block.
Ill update my list tonight to show all the changes, i would love it if you would comment again after I do. Its going to look quite different.
After fiddeling with the list trying to figure out what to take out for the counterspells 3drinks wants me to add in I looked to mtgtop8.com for inspiration.
I was looking at Animar lists because they are creature heavy blue red decks and fairly close in playstyle to marchesa with its love of +1 counters and value creatures often with etb effects.
Playing so few counters in UX aggro-tempo is just a bad call in a meta where you can reasonably expect Geist, Clique, Wydwen, Silumgar, Ojutai, Jenara, Nin, and etc. Play what you will, of course - but I wouldn't trust any old list you find on some forum; especially one without a rich history of event reports.
That list comes from mtg top 8. Where i believe every deck list posted got top 8 in a tournament. The deck i just posted got 1st place.
Dispel, Spell Pierce, Swan Song, Mental Misstep, Spellsnare are too specific for my liking. I'm only going to use counters that can counter any type of spell.
I have a karador deck that has only 5 instants or sorceries total. It laughs at a lot of control decks that use those cards because they are dead against me.
Im thinking counterspell, mana leak, miscalc, familiar's ruse, cryptic command and because you convinced me shadow of doubt.
I havent really found control to be as tough a match up as combo and aggro. But then again my meta doesnt use heavy control decks like that.
Maybe tempo is the wrong word to use when talking about this deck. Aggro/Combo might be a better term. This is not your classic control deck at all. The goal is to re-use the effects of creatures i control and to also pump up/ swing with as many creatures as i possably can. I often dont even leave mana open because i tap out to play agressively. I just try to counter the odd card that is really going to mess me up in the mid-late game. I dont try to counter everything my opponent does like draw go.
Yeah, that doesn't sound like tempo at all - it's aggro. You're using your mana efficiently every turn.
Though on cards like Song and Snare, you'd be surprised at how often they're relevant - Snare because of how many two drops from Bob to Goyf to Counterspell to Sylvan Library - that it answers. Song meanwhile answers any spot/mass removal for just U that isn't named Abrupt Decay or Supreme Verdict.
Your meta sounds a bit under-developed - I'm envious, tbh - I wish I could play where heavy draw-go isn't a thing.
Didn't see your edit up there, but when I see Sea Gate Oracle, I think "Why not Mulldrifter instead?" You can evoke for 2U then, if you have Unspeakable Symbol out, pay 3 life to put a counter on it, sac to Evoke, then Marchesa brings it back with her own ability. 2U and three life for four cards. This may be a cornercase scenario, but it does have a nonzero percent chance of happening.
Anyway I digress. Mulldrifter should be played before Sea Gate, but I think there's room for Mulldrifter, Phyrexian Rager, and Sea Gate Oracle all three.
Sounds like your more on board now. You may be correct about our meta, im thinking my next edh deck will be tasigur (i love bug, i tried mimeo and siddisi and didnt like them but tasigur seems to be doing really well) and i can try out the classic control strategy.
If i could only run 1 between spell snare, swan song and spell pierce which would u pick.
I guess my beef with mulldrifter is if i evoke him, i probably wont get to recycle his etb effect unless i fortunately have the unspeakable symbol, i may as well just use Nights Whisper if i cant swing with mulldrifter as a creature. Otherwise as a 5 drop he is kinda underwhelming imo. My buddy that runs Rafiq suggested mulldrifter too so maybe ill try it out. I just like the sea gate oracle because u get to look at 2 cards, pick the one u like and then swing with him as a creature next turn. You cant reliably do that at well with Mulldrifter.
The Phyrexian Rager is good, i just don't think he's good enough. At least the Oracle lets you dig through a card. After I edit the crap out of my decklist tonight, if you can recommend something to take out for him I would appreciate it because i dont see a way to fit all 3 in.
Five for a 2/2 flyer with a draw2 attached is an acceptable cost (Divination is worth 2U and a 2/2 flyer is more than worth the last 2). It's value. In a similar vein, Nevermaker is pretty good at setting people back a turn. Adding these would also add value to a minor reanimation package. At the very least, add a Reanimate. Toss in an Exhume as well if you're not facing other similar strats.
Snare vs Song vs Pierce is a tough call because they're doing different things. Pierce is good because it hits walkers and artifacts too, but by t6 or so it is ineffective. Snare is good as a hard counter, but soft to one and three drops (it counters both Bob & Counterbalance though, which is a definite plus). Song is good as a hard counter because it stops any removal that could be countered, cards like Counterbalance, and enchantment based removal (like Song of the Dryads), but is cold to artifacts and planeswalkers. Compared to Pierce though, it is more live later in the game (and the later it goes, the 2/2 bird is less and less relevant).
Re: Faeries. I think, I don't want to play them unless I'm on 1) Storm, or 2) Playing lands that tap for 2+ mana. And even then, it's pretty underwhelming of a two drop.
I have just updated my list. I need help fitting in a few cards you (3drinks) have recommended i use. Cards i would like to add in but cant seem to figure out how: Cryptic Command, Mulldrifter, maybe a few other counters you have mentioned. I cut down the mana rocks from 6 to 4. If you see room to put a couple back let me know.
Now that you have a better idea of how the deck plays (aggro with lots of synergy) does that make you think of anything else i should be playing?
- Ancestral Vision could be 'Drifter. AV is sooooooo slow.
- Kolaghan's Command is terrible. I'd probably run Izzet Charm instead.
- You're missing Reflecting Pool. That gives you seven rainbows.
- For a bit of tech, consider adding Crosis's Catacombs to get extra value from Bojuka Bog. If you want more than one target, you can also add Halimar Depths. I did this in my Bolas deck (which was tapout control) so it may not be viable for an aggro deck? it's probably worth testing though as it's all slotting into the mana base.
- Nice tech on the Opal Palace. Normally Shimmering Grottos are pretty terrible lands, but there is some solid synergies here.
- Black Sun is a nonbo with the deck. Use Flametongue Kavu instead.
- Battledriver can, should, and needs to be Nevermaker.
- Falkenrath Aristocrat and Bloodflow Connoisseur are poor sac outlets as they're here "just" to sacrifice. Consider Flesh Carver instead. I also like that new Blood Hound from Origins.
- Desecration Demon & Abyssal Persecutor are just beaters (the former even gives a sac outlet to your opponent!) These can be other things.
- Kiki-Jiki is strong, but you have a lot of legendaries which is a bit of a nonbo with Kiki.
- Flayer of the Hatebound is win-more. Should be Dragonlord Silumgar.
- I think Chasm Skulker and Sage of Fables are weak. One of these could be Phyrexian Rager for the immediate gratification. Gilded Drake probably deserves a spot somewhere in the 99 I'm pretty sure...........
- Grave Titan & Frost Titan are pretty good blink targets, and since you like the ETB..........
- Some of the dorks I want to see in here are those counter-drakes. The "spiketail bros".
Kolaghan's command is not terrible. instant speed 2 for 1 is never terrible. I personally feel this is the best black/red card printed in a long time. im all about card advantage on the field and in our hands rather then temporary tempo delays.
Kiki Jiki - you make a good point about all the Lego's. But hes so good with the theme i'd almost consider taking out some other lego's just to leave him in.
Flesh carver could be used over connoisseur. I had both in but only had room for 1. As i said i often like to tap out. Especually turn 4 to play Marchesa. Sac outlets save marchesa from exile so its nice to use outlets that you dont have to pay mana to use. Sac outlets also power your synergy. I often sacrifice 3-4 creatures a turn to re-use abilaties. I dont want to have to pay 4-8 mana to do so. I like free, free is good. I dont like the hound for the same reason.
Falconrath Aristocrat is so good im going to stick with her. A 4/1 flyer with haste that can sac something to become indestructible is amazing in Marchesa. She is one of the few creatures that can block Rafiq kill him and live to tell the tail. Not to mention if she sac's marchesa she gets a +1/+1counter. This card along with Unspeakable symbol are Marchesa Staples that you will find in almost every marchesa decklist. N
Chasm Skulker is a bit weak and i could swap him out.
Sage of Fables isnt to bad, he gives marchesa a counter when she etb and any other wizards i have as well. The card draw is also nice if i have extra mana open at the end of turn. Some animar decks use it just for the card draw.
I dont like Kavu because his abilaty is a must and often he just ends up killing himself when marchesa reanimates him after a board wipe when your opponents have no creatures to target.
Flayer of the Hatebound - i dont really know what a "win-more" is but he is a boss. You play him with Marchesa out and your opponent is basically dead. You get him out sac him to do 5 damage to your opponents face. With marchesa out you sac the flayer and marchesa who should have a counter on her to deal another 7 damage. Then you sac the flayer again to do another 5. Thats 17 damage and thats only with him and the general. If you have other creatures out you sac them as well and when they come back you do rediculous damage. Then if thats not enough, on your opponents turn u sac the flayer again to do another 4 at the end of their turn.
Black Suns Zenith is fine. Why is it a "nonbo"? If its because you think marchesa's ability wont trigger due to the -1 and +1 counters negating each other then dont worry. When the state based check happened she still had the +1 counter on her.
Nevermaker is cool and ill add it in. Not sure i want to remove the battledriver for it tho, maybe desecration demon instead. Battledriver gets counters on your creatures the turn they come out if marchesa is in play. And has an added synergy with the Flayer. That being said i wish he costed 3 and didnt give the +2/+0 so he would curve better into marchesa.
Dragonlord, Grave Titan, Frost Titan: to expensive. I dont like 6 drops. Im only running 2 and the the 2 im running basically win me the game if they resolve.
Crosis's catacombs: i hate lands that make you bounce a land.
Ansestral Vision is pretty slow: Its AMAZING if you drop it turn 1 but terrible late game: i could see that becoming something else for sure.
Ill see what i can do about the counter dorks. Although im not sold on cursecatcher.
Abyssal and Desecration Demon: whats wrong with big ass hard to deal with beaters?
I play againat some serious reanimator decks and exhume could help them far more then it would me.
No it doesnt i editied that part a bit later but i think you already responded. If creature with a +1/+1 counter on him dies to a Black Sun's Zenith it WILL come back. At the last moment of its existence it still had the counter. Its the same reason a creature with undying and a +1/+1 counter on it will NOT come back from the GY if Black Sun's Zenith is used to whither it to death.
Ok i looked up what win-more and lose-less mean. I see what your getting at with the flayer but i dont think i agree. If i'm winning the game then i do have an awesome scenario where my opponent is in trouble, but even if im losing and dont have marchesa out i can still sac him to a Phyrexian Tower and deal 5 damage to a creature or redirect to a planeswalker. Its not a card you can only use when winning.
As far as six drops go though...Grave Titan is a better choice by a good margin, and Silumgar is the best choice. Steal a big threat, or even better, a control deck's Ugin/Karn/Elspeth/Jace that are about to ultimate (or just go for value). It's too strong man.
Grave titan really sux imo was a bomb back in standard but i dont generally like token generators. I will consider silumgar again. I was going to put him in but someone else really fought me on it and convinced me otherwise. How often do walkers go ultimate in your meta? They VERY rarely go off in mine.
I need to take out a 2mana creature to keep my curve nice and fit in the Spiketail Hatchling. Im thinking of taking out Dark Confidant, what would you take out?
Grave titan really sux imo was a bomb back in standard but i dont generally like token generators. I will consider silumgar again. I was going to put him in but someone else really fought me on it and convinced me otherwise. How often do walkers go ultimate in your meta? They VERY rarely go off in mine.
Ill put in Silumgar over the flayer for now
I don't see ultimates often (except on my Koth emblem). But just for Silumgar to come down and take an Ugin, or a Karn man...or a Jace which would be the definition of living the dream.
I need to take out a 2mana creature to keep my curve nice and fit in the Spiketail Hatchling. Im thinking of taking out Dark Confidant, what would you take out?
So i asked Theonecalledrune what he thought of cutting the Flayer for Silumgar. He is the leading expert in marchesa on mtgsalvation kinda like you are to Kaalia. This is his responce:
Silumgar is good, definitely would not cut flayer, it is just stupid good in the deck, it is removal, a recurring threat, adjusts our life, and can combo kill. It's not that it is win more, its that it wins hard.
I have to agree with him, the flayer stays in!
Now i still want to try silumgar out (especually since i just ran out and bought one lol) maybe ill take out Jokelhaups? Or i could try three 6 drops.
So i asked Theonecalledrune what he thought of cutting the Flayer for Silumgar. He is the leading expert in marchesa on mtgsalvation kinda like you are to Kaalia. This is his responce:
Silumgar is good, definitely would not cut flayer, it is just stupid good in the deck, it is removal, a recurring threat, adjusts our life, and can combo kill. It's not that it is win more, its that it wins hard.
I have to agree with him, the flayer stays in!
Now i still want to try silumgar out (especually since i just ran out and bought one lol) maybe ill take out Jokelhaups? Or i could try three 6 drops.
That's fair, I guess. I just don't like Flayer on a personal level - doesn't excite me. *shrugs* (can't get past the six mana 4/2 bit). Ironic, because I'm advocating for a six mana 3/5. -_-
One of the other cards I listed a few posts above. Those are your cuts. Like I said, never cut Bob. You'll miss it, you'll realize what a mistake it is to not have him. Didn't someone else suggest cutting the 'Haups? Now you're thinking it? Looks like you have your answer.
No it doesnt i editied that part a bit later but i think you already responded. If creature with a +1/+1 counter on him dies to a Black Sun's Zenith it WILL come back. At the last moment of its existence it still had the counter. Its the same reason a creature with undying and a +1/+1 counter on it will NOT come back from the GY if Black Sun's Zenith is used to whither it to death.
After looking this up, you are correct. Still kind of a funny interaction though. I also think you should keep Flayer in, because it's been fantastic with my deck.
Also, 3drinks, do you have a decklist to the Zurgo deck in your signature? That kind of build intrigues me heavily.
What do you guys think of Grimgrin, Corpse Born i have him in the list because every other marchesa decklist i see runs him but to me he just seems situational. I dont like how you are forced to sac creatures to get ANY use out of him. with Marchesa in play he's great but if she isnt then eithor you keep him tapped and useless or you sac creatures that wont be coming back. What is everyone else seeing that I dont?
I was going to comment on him last night, but overall I liked the synergies, beefy body, relevant on-attack trigger, and being a free, reusable, instant speed sac outlet. This guy is a winner here, man.
Vendillion Clique: i will add it to the list. If i had a copy i would use it for sure.
Black sun's zenith: works just fine, you may not be aware of how state based checks work with +1 and -1 counters. When marchesa with a +1 counter on it, gets enough -1 counters to kill her, her last moment of exisence had both a +1 and a -1 counter. Then the counters negate each other and she dies all at once. But because she does in fact have a +1 counter when she dies she will come back the the end of turn.
Gitaxian Probe. Good Idea, the trick is figuring out what to take out for it.
Remand will become either a spell pierce or just the probe mentioned above.
Im hesitant to put in wildfire because im worried it will give green decks an advantage over me.
Avalance Riders: ok, i have seen him in other lists and you're the 3rd person to tell me i should be running him so i will take out Olivia Vildaren for him
Im not a fan of all the little guys that get brought back. I find that there is usually enough graveyard hate in decks to make them useless. I find they just die over and over again without making much of a difference. Especually the ones that cant even block.
Ill update my list tonight to show all the changes, i would love it if you would comment again after I do. Its going to look quite different.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I was looking at Animar lists because they are creature heavy blue red decks and fairly close in playstyle to marchesa with its love of +1 counters and value creatures often with etb effects.
Here is an example: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9722&d=255961&f=EDH
Notice that it only uses 2 counterspells. Other Marchesa decks on mtg salvation also only use 2-3 counters. Some use none at all.
I think i will probably continue using few counters instead of trying to make room for more. 5-6 counters tops
On a side note, what do you guys think of Cloud of Faeries and Sea Gate Oracle i saw them on some animar lists and thought I would like em as well.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
If you must play just a few, I'd say your best bets would be ones that protect your strategy for minimal colour commitments. Dispel, Spell Pierce, Swan Song, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare, Remand, Mana Leak, Miscalculation, and for a hard counter, Familiar's Ruse. That, I believe should be your nonnegotiable permission suite.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Dispel, Spell Pierce, Swan Song, Mental Misstep, Spellsnare are too specific for my liking. I'm only going to use counters that can counter any type of spell.
I have a karador deck that has only 5 instants or sorceries total. It laughs at a lot of control decks that use those cards because they are dead against me.
Im thinking counterspell, mana leak, miscalc, familiar's ruse, cryptic command and because you convinced me shadow of doubt.
I havent really found control to be as tough a match up as combo and aggro. But then again my meta doesnt use heavy control decks like that.
Maybe tempo is the wrong word to use when talking about this deck. Aggro/Combo might be a better term. This is not your classic control deck at all. The goal is to re-use the effects of creatures i control and to also pump up/ swing with as many creatures as i possably can. I often dont even leave mana open because i tap out to play agressively. I just try to counter the odd card that is really going to mess me up in the mid-late game. I dont try to counter everything my opponent does like draw go.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Though on cards like Song and Snare, you'd be surprised at how often they're relevant - Snare because of how many two drops from Bob to Goyf to Counterspell to Sylvan Library - that it answers. Song meanwhile answers any spot/mass removal for just U that isn't named Abrupt Decay or Supreme Verdict.
Your meta sounds a bit under-developed - I'm envious, tbh - I wish I could play where heavy draw-go isn't a thing.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Anyway I digress. Mulldrifter should be played before Sea Gate, but I think there's room for Mulldrifter, Phyrexian Rager, and Sea Gate Oracle all three.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
If i could only run 1 between spell snare, swan song and spell pierce which would u pick.
I guess my beef with mulldrifter is if i evoke him, i probably wont get to recycle his etb effect unless i fortunately have the unspeakable symbol, i may as well just use Nights Whisper if i cant swing with mulldrifter as a creature. Otherwise as a 5 drop he is kinda underwhelming imo. My buddy that runs Rafiq suggested mulldrifter too so maybe ill try it out. I just like the sea gate oracle because u get to look at 2 cards, pick the one u like and then swing with him as a creature next turn. You cant reliably do that at well with Mulldrifter.
The Phyrexian Rager is good, i just don't think he's good enough. At least the Oracle lets you dig through a card. After I edit the crap out of my decklist tonight, if you can recommend something to take out for him I would appreciate it because i dont see a way to fit all 3 in.
What do you think of Cloud of Faeries?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Snare vs Song vs Pierce is a tough call because they're doing different things. Pierce is good because it hits walkers and artifacts too, but by t6 or so it is ineffective. Snare is good as a hard counter, but soft to one and three drops (it counters both Bob & Counterbalance though, which is a definite plus). Song is good as a hard counter because it stops any removal that could be countered, cards like Counterbalance, and enchantment based removal (like Song of the Dryads), but is cold to artifacts and planeswalkers. Compared to Pierce though, it is more live later in the game (and the later it goes, the 2/2 bird is less and less relevant).
Re: Faeries. I think, I don't want to play them unless I'm on 1) Storm, or 2) Playing lands that tap for 2+ mana. And even then, it's pretty underwhelming of a two drop.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Now that you have a better idea of how the deck plays (aggro with lots of synergy) does that make you think of anything else i should be playing?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
- Kolaghan's Command is terrible. I'd probably run Izzet Charm instead.
- You're missing Reflecting Pool. That gives you seven rainbows.
- For a bit of tech, consider adding Crosis's Catacombs to get extra value from Bojuka Bog. If you want more than one target, you can also add Halimar Depths. I did this in my Bolas deck (which was tapout control) so it may not be viable for an aggro deck? it's probably worth testing though as it's all slotting into the mana base.
- Nice tech on the Opal Palace. Normally Shimmering Grottos are pretty terrible lands, but there is some solid synergies here.
- Black Sun is a nonbo with the deck. Use Flametongue Kavu instead.
- Battledriver can, should, and needs to be Nevermaker.
- Falkenrath Aristocrat and Bloodflow Connoisseur are poor sac outlets as they're here "just" to sacrifice. Consider Flesh Carver instead. I also like that new Blood Hound from Origins.
- Desecration Demon & Abyssal Persecutor are just beaters (the former even gives a sac outlet to your opponent!) These can be other things.
- Kiki-Jiki is strong, but you have a lot of legendaries which is a bit of a nonbo with Kiki.
- Flayer of the Hatebound is win-more. Should be Dragonlord Silumgar.
- I think Chasm Skulker and Sage of Fables are weak. One of these could be Phyrexian Rager for the immediate gratification. Gilded Drake probably deserves a spot somewhere in the 99 I'm pretty sure...........
- Grave Titan & Frost Titan are pretty good blink targets, and since you like the ETB..........
- Some of the dorks I want to see in here are those counter-drakes. The "spiketail bros".
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Kiki Jiki - you make a good point about all the Lego's. But hes so good with the theme i'd almost consider taking out some other lego's just to leave him in.
Flesh carver could be used over connoisseur. I had both in but only had room for 1. As i said i often like to tap out. Especually turn 4 to play Marchesa. Sac outlets save marchesa from exile so its nice to use outlets that you dont have to pay mana to use. Sac outlets also power your synergy. I often sacrifice 3-4 creatures a turn to re-use abilaties. I dont want to have to pay 4-8 mana to do so. I like free, free is good. I dont like the hound for the same reason.
Falconrath Aristocrat is so good im going to stick with her. A 4/1 flyer with haste that can sac something to become indestructible is amazing in Marchesa. She is one of the few creatures that can block Rafiq kill him and live to tell the tail. Not to mention if she sac's marchesa she gets a +1/+1counter. This card along with Unspeakable symbol are Marchesa Staples that you will find in almost every marchesa decklist. N
Chasm Skulker is a bit weak and i could swap him out.
Sage of Fables isnt to bad, he gives marchesa a counter when she etb and any other wizards i have as well. The card draw is also nice if i have extra mana open at the end of turn. Some animar decks use it just for the card draw.
I dont like Kavu because his abilaty is a must and often he just ends up killing himself when marchesa reanimates him after a board wipe when your opponents have no creatures to target.
Flayer of the Hatebound - i dont really know what a "win-more" is but he is a boss. You play him with Marchesa out and your opponent is basically dead. You get him out sac him to do 5 damage to your opponents face. With marchesa out you sac the flayer and marchesa who should have a counter on her to deal another 7 damage. Then you sac the flayer again to do another 5. Thats 17 damage and thats only with him and the general. If you have other creatures out you sac them as well and when they come back you do rediculous damage. Then if thats not enough, on your opponents turn u sac the flayer again to do another 4 at the end of their turn.
Black Suns Zenith is fine. Why is it a "nonbo"? If its because you think marchesa's ability wont trigger due to the -1 and +1 counters negating each other then dont worry. When the state based check happened she still had the +1 counter on her.
Nevermaker is cool and ill add it in. Not sure i want to remove the battledriver for it tho, maybe desecration demon instead. Battledriver gets counters on your creatures the turn they come out if marchesa is in play. And has an added synergy with the Flayer. That being said i wish he costed 3 and didnt give the +2/+0 so he would curve better into marchesa.
Dragonlord, Grave Titan, Frost Titan: to expensive. I dont like 6 drops. Im only running 2 and the the 2 im running basically win me the game if they resolve.
Crosis's catacombs: i hate lands that make you bounce a land.
Ansestral Vision is pretty slow: Its AMAZING if you drop it turn 1 but terrible late game: i could see that becoming something else for sure.
Ill see what i can do about the counter dorks. Although im not sold on cursecatcher.
Abyssal and Desecration Demon: whats wrong with big ass hard to deal with beaters?
I play againat some serious reanimator decks and exhume could help them far more then it would me.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Because Black Sun's Zenith removes the +1/+1 counters from creatures, effectively countering Marchesa's ability.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Ill put in Silumgar over the flayer for now
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I don't see ultimates often (except on my Koth emblem). But just for Silumgar to come down and take an Ugin, or a Karn man...or a Jace which would be the definition of living the dream.
I would never cut Bob. Ever.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
So i asked Theonecalledrune what he thought of cutting the Flayer for Silumgar. He is the leading expert in marchesa on mtgsalvation kinda like you are to Kaalia. This is his responce:
I have to agree with him, the flayer stays in!
Now i still want to try silumgar out (especually since i just ran out and bought one lol) maybe ill take out Jokelhaups? Or i could try three 6 drops.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
That's fair, I guess. I just don't like Flayer on a personal level - doesn't excite me. *shrugs* (can't get past the six mana 4/2 bit). Ironic, because I'm advocating for a six mana 3/5. -_-
One of the other cards I listed a few posts above. Those are your cuts. Like I said, never cut Bob. You'll miss it, you'll realize what a mistake it is to not have him. Didn't someone else suggest cutting the 'Haups? Now you're thinking it? Looks like you have your answer.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
After looking this up, you are correct. Still kind of a funny interaction though. I also think you should keep Flayer in, because it's been fantastic with my deck.
Also, 3drinks, do you have a decklist to the Zurgo deck in your signature? That kind of build intrigues me heavily.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)