I'd go with mana reflection only if you use lands that produce 2 mana when tapped (temple of the false god, Selesnya Sanctuary) cause they would now produce twice as much mana. I believe cabal coffers doubles with that as well. If you don't, mirari's wake is better because of the pump effect, but draws more hate
This is a great point. It also depends on how many non-land permanents you have that produce extra mana. For example, I only have three mana rocks in my list (Coalition Relic, Darksteel Ingot, and Mox Diamond), and no bounce-lands, so most of the time the Wake is better for me. If you run more of these things, go for the Reflection.
It's that time again! New set means new stuff to add to an already over-stuffed list. As usual, I'll just go through a few highlights:
- Angel of Jubilation: Really? WTF. Why did they have to print this card? Screws my whole life over.
End rant.
- Avacyn, Angel of Hope: Hmm, not sure if this one should be in here or not. Obviously, it's a unique ability, and at 8 mana she would sit atop the Birthing Pod chain, but I'm thinking I don't need her because my stuff is just as likely to get sacrificed to my own effects as it is to get killed by someone else.
- Cathar's Crusade: If my Commander was Ghave, this would obviously be insane. As long as it's Karador, it probably is just fine. Probably not going to make it due to the overwhelming competition.
- Restoration Angel: It's a four-drop, which is one of the weak spots on the pod chain, and it has a very useful ability. Definitely going in the list.
- Blood Artist: I didn't put Falkenrath Noble in here, but this guy is the perfect size for this deck. He's a target for both Reveillark AND Sun Titan, and his ability is very underrated.
- Bloodflow Connoisseur: Free sac outlets are always good. Free sac outlets that get returned with Sun Titan AND Reveillark are even better. This should contend for a spot with the rest of my sac outlets.
- Dark Impostor: Probably better in my Geth and/or Oona decks.
- Griselbrand: Another 8-drop with a very unique ability. This one isn't as likely to make it in, because my hand is usually pretty full and I get a lot of mileage out of the cards I already have.
- Harvester of Souls: Man, the six-drops keep on coming. I still haven't found a spot for black Mikaeus, and now I have to find room for this thing as well? Oh well, it's a nice problem to have. Obviously this guy is awesome, and needs to be here.
- Killing Wave: Probably not...there are lots of better sweepers out there that didn't make it.
- Unhallowed Pact: Kind of a neat trick, and it comes back with Sun Titan. Definitely something to keep in mind.
- Champion of Lambholt: Another unique ability, but I just don't know if I need it. Probably better off in mono-green.
- Craterhoof Behemoth: Another unique ability that might be better in mono-green, or in Ghave, since I don't always have a large horde of dudes on the table.
- Primal Surge: Yes! Over 90% of my deck is permanent. This is miles better than Genesis Wave, and will likely become my game-winner of choice for the immediate future.
- Soul of the Harvest: Another awesome six-drop? This is probably on par with Harvester of Souls.
- Ulvenwald Tracker: Eh, not exactly what I'm looking for. Black and white have more than enough direct removal.
- Sigarda, Host of Herons: Another card that is totally insane against me. Probably won't make my own list, since I don't care if I sacrifice something, but it's going to be really hard to for me to get rid of this.
In summary, there's at least one guaranteed in, and four more that are extremely likely. Time to find more cuts!
I like your list, it showed me some stuff I did not think about because I did not like the whole block the card was in. I stopped and restarted playing magic so many times you wouldnt believe So thanks for this!
I've got a question about some cards, because I think I wouldn't use them.
My deck is similar, I also like all the synergies especially with sacrificing effects. I'll post it after this weekend if someone is interested in. It's not 100% because I don't play with proxies so I used fillers
I asked myself if you really need cards like Strands of Night & Golgari Germination?
I see the synergies, but in my point of view they're just not really needed/important.
The next question is, why are you running Emeria, the Sky Ruin?
I mean how lucky you've to be to have all Lands wich could count as a plain in the game at the same time (you only have 5 standart plains and some more rav duals)... Especially without playing Knight of the Reliquary and/or Crucible of Worlds
Last but not least I'd recommend you following cards with short explanation:
Kessig Cagebreakers and Eldrazi Monument
Cagebreakers are so sick with a good filled GY. And Eldrazi Monument is a must have when you've got a nice Body/Token generation machine out.
@LimDuhl: Good questions. I'll see if I can answer all them...
- Strands is definitely staying. I've thought about cutting Phyrexian Reclamation because it doesn't put the creature directly into play, but putting any creature directly into play at instant speed for two mana is incredible. Obviously, it works a little better with Urborg, but it's still plenty good by itself.
- Golgari Germination itself might not be the best card for the job, but the general effect is well worth it. Being able to get extra bodies from creatures dying is totally worth it. I chose the Germination over the likes of Requiem Angel and Field of Souls because it costs only 3 (Sun Titan) and I already had a creature with a similar effect (Pawn of Ulamog, also a three drop).
- Emeria is actually pretty easy to get online. In addition to the five basic Plains, I have two duals, two shocks, three fetches to dig them up, a Mistveil Plains, a Krosan Verge to dig up two duals, Wood Elves to fetch duals, Perilous Forays (if you read that card closer, you'll see that it can fetch duals), and Primeval Titan to get Emeria + another Plains.
@Kessig Cagebreakers: Two big problems with this guy. One, he needs to attack. That's not an easy thing to do in this format. Two, he needs a loaded graveyard, which invites people to point a Bojuka Bog at me. Granted, they already try to do that a lot, but I don't need more incentive to do that.
@Eldrazi Monument: I'm not exactly a dedicated token-making deck. That's probably better in Ghave.
@Glissa: She'd need a lot of cheap artifacts to be good, and that means cutting a lot of cards from the list to make room for more artifacts. I have a hard enough time making cuts for cards from the new sets.
@Martial Coup: Oddly enough, I don't really need more sweepers. This deck has quite a lot of removal already.
@Scavenging Ooze: All of mine are taken up by Legacy, and Withered Wretch is just better because the cost is colorless.
@False Prophet: Eeeew. Exiling my own stuff makes me cringe. Does this really work all that well for you?
@Cathar's Crusade: Eh, I'm still kinda on the fence, and I still need to find a spot for black Mikaeus.
@Blood Artist: I had his big brother Falkenrath Noble in my Grimgrin deck, which does almost as much sacrificing as this deck does. He was very much worth it. Getting this guy for half the price is a great bargain. I have no doubt he will be worth it.
@Harvester of Souls: Aside from 3cc or less, 6cc or more is also worth noting because of Fierce Empath. Also, the Clamp is insanely powerful, so anything close to it is good enough for me.
@Primal Surge: Not sure how many non-permanents you run, but this should instantly put at least half my remaining library onto the table. Can't imagine a better card for me.
EDIT: Any bright ideas on what to cut from this list? Off-hand, I'm thinking about the following:
- Genesis Wave for Primal Surge
- Phyrexian Arena for Harvester of Souls
- Phyrexian Reclamation for either Blood Artist or Restoration Angel
Thx for looking closer. I see we all have similar thoughts with different a "taste". I like it.
Until yet Kessig Cagebreakers did a really great job in my deck so far. I know he's not a CiP'er but still, if you've got the boot's out he attacks the same turn he comes in, and he creates lot's of tokens. And normally I don't care if he eat's removal, he'll come back the turn after again.
The nice thing about our deck's with sac-outlets is, we've got always a nice answer to spells/removal like Path to Exile, we just sac our creature first to save it from being exiled.
I like boneshredder as well. But I don't run it in my "mulitplayer"-EDH deck. But so far if you need a second one of this kind of creature I hope you allready tried Nekrataal?
Sorry about Scavenging Ooze, I thought everybody who own's a Karador did buy the whole Commander Deck. My fault.
I definitely use my Ooze. He's really nice and does not need dual black mana like this other guy. And all the +1 counter's he might get are really usefull as well Especiall in the early game if I was lucky enough to have the Ooze from the beginning he can be really strong.
In my current deck version I'm using Lost Auramancers to catch Grave Pact. Do you guy's prefer Tutor's for dig for it?
Also Reaper from the Abyss is a house, he almost kills something at the end of every single turn. Bojuka bog is in as well, it works so smooth withKnight of the Reliquary. I'm a big fan of redundance so I play Ooze, Bog, and Tormod's Crypt all together
At my location Glissa is irreplecable. I don't play a lot of Artifact's but the one's I do are really needed. Especially stuff like Jitte is removed really fast. So I'm always glad when I get my Glissa out to get it back
I thought about putting Karn (PW) in. Do you guys think he'll be worth a try?
@Nekrataal: You pretty much said it: he costs one more mana and has the same ability. I might consider Shriekmaw because of the evoke ability, but the limitations of each are pretty annoying. I used to run Big Game Hunter for the exact reason mentioned: anything you need to kill is gonna be bigger.
@Lost Auramancers: As mentioned, it's hard enough to keep something alive for one turn. Three turns is totally out of the question.
@Glissa: If this package works for you, then by all means go for it. I run a similar package with Salvaging Station in another deck that works rather nicely.
@Karn Liberated: There are definitely pros and cons to running him over another card like Angel of Despair. On the plus side, he's colorless, he deals with indestructibles, and he deals with cards that don't die nicely (anything with undying or persist, for example). On the minus side, he's not a creature, so he's harder to reuse and doesn't really mesh with the rest of the deck. I guess it would come down to which of those differences matter to you.
Sorry for the big "delay". Had to much to do... Ehm no that's not really the case, I've had holidays and did not play that much magic or spent that much time behind the computer
I don't play Boneshredder nor Necrataal in my Multiplayer Karador. Just because they're to weak for that reason.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I'd use them in a 1v1 Karador Deck.
Have definitely to build a 1v1 Karador Deck, because I'm addicted to Birthing Pod and Necra and Bony would fit really well.
Back to the Multiplayer one.
Academy Rector really is better for the reason you said. At the moment unfortunately I can't find my one anymore, so I've to use the "cheap" one.
To keep him alive is not that hard as long as I can use Hex Parasite or try to "Combo" with Melira. I guess in the End I'll play both "Tutors" to get my lovely Grave Pact!
Just to insane with all tokens and sac outlets.
I did completely forget about False Prophet! I'll add him asap
Karn is not in for a try until I get a non foil copy of it... I'm putting only "non Foil" cards in my karador deck.
Do you guys play/like sweepers like Planar Cleansing & Final Judgment? I personally love them...
Maybe it would be a nice idea to put my list up, I'd like to know what you think about!
It seems like your meta has lot's of indestructible stuff?
Not so here, the most stuff people play is not indestructible and the small amount of existing ones can be cleared with exile/sacrifice/steal answers.
There's only one sharuum player around who could set up s/t like all enchantments/artifacts are indestructible or get shroud etc. Oh ok there could be two, the Zur player has someting similar, but not really strong nor focussed on it.
"Mass"-exiling can hinder ya for to long if it's really needed.
Final Judgment is my favourite spell because I don't really care about my tokens, and before it resolves I'm able to sac. the creatures I really need (like we do now with Prophet^^).
So I'll play both because redundancy is really important for me. If I'd got "only one answer" in my whole deck and it get's discarded or alike the game is almost over.
Is there a thread somewhere where I'm able to post my Karador deck? Couldnt find one but I'm sure there's allready one up to discuss.
(I think it's the wrong place to post it here in the primer)
This is a great point. It also depends on how many non-land permanents you have that produce extra mana. For example, I only have three mana rocks in my list (Coalition Relic, Darksteel Ingot, and Mox Diamond), and no bounce-lands, so most of the time the Wake is better for me. If you run more of these things, go for the Reflection.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
No. It used to be so, until the Command Zone was established to prevent such shenanigans. Riftsweeper is used to bring back exiled things.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
- Angel of Jubilation: Really? WTF. Why did they have to print this card? Screws my whole life over.
End rant.
- Avacyn, Angel of Hope: Hmm, not sure if this one should be in here or not. Obviously, it's a unique ability, and at 8 mana she would sit atop the Birthing Pod chain, but I'm thinking I don't need her because my stuff is just as likely to get sacrificed to my own effects as it is to get killed by someone else.
- Cathar's Crusade: If my Commander was Ghave, this would obviously be insane. As long as it's Karador, it probably is just fine. Probably not going to make it due to the overwhelming competition.
- Restoration Angel: It's a four-drop, which is one of the weak spots on the pod chain, and it has a very useful ability. Definitely going in the list.
- Blood Artist: I didn't put Falkenrath Noble in here, but this guy is the perfect size for this deck. He's a target for both Reveillark AND Sun Titan, and his ability is very underrated.
- Bloodflow Connoisseur: Free sac outlets are always good. Free sac outlets that get returned with Sun Titan AND Reveillark are even better. This should contend for a spot with the rest of my sac outlets.
- Dark Impostor: Probably better in my Geth and/or Oona decks.
- Griselbrand: Another 8-drop with a very unique ability. This one isn't as likely to make it in, because my hand is usually pretty full and I get a lot of mileage out of the cards I already have.
- Harvester of Souls: Man, the six-drops keep on coming. I still haven't found a spot for black Mikaeus, and now I have to find room for this thing as well? Oh well, it's a nice problem to have. Obviously this guy is awesome, and needs to be here.
- Killing Wave: Probably not...there are lots of better sweepers out there that didn't make it.
- Unhallowed Pact: Kind of a neat trick, and it comes back with Sun Titan. Definitely something to keep in mind.
- Champion of Lambholt: Another unique ability, but I just don't know if I need it. Probably better off in mono-green.
- Craterhoof Behemoth: Another unique ability that might be better in mono-green, or in Ghave, since I don't always have a large horde of dudes on the table.
- Primal Surge: Yes! Over 90% of my deck is permanent. This is miles better than Genesis Wave, and will likely become my game-winner of choice for the immediate future.
- Soul of the Harvest: Another awesome six-drop? This is probably on par with Harvester of Souls.
- Ulvenwald Tracker: Eh, not exactly what I'm looking for. Black and white have more than enough direct removal.
- Sigarda, Host of Herons: Another card that is totally insane against me. Probably won't make my own list, since I don't care if I sacrifice something, but it's going to be really hard to for me to get rid of this.
In summary, there's at least one guaranteed in, and four more that are extremely likely. Time to find more cuts!
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
I like your list, it showed me some stuff I did not think about because I did not like the whole block the card was in. I stopped and restarted playing magic so many times you wouldnt believe So thanks for this!
I've got a question about some cards, because I think I wouldn't use them.
My deck is similar, I also like all the synergies especially with sacrificing effects. I'll post it after this weekend if someone is interested in. It's not 100% because I don't play with proxies so I used fillers
I asked myself if you really need cards like Strands of Night & Golgari Germination?
I see the synergies, but in my point of view they're just not really needed/important.
The next question is, why are you running Emeria, the Sky Ruin?
I mean how lucky you've to be to have all Lands wich could count as a plain in the game at the same time (you only have 5 standart plains and some more rav duals)... Especially without playing Knight of the Reliquary and/or Crucible of Worlds
Last but not least I'd recommend you following cards with short explanation:
Kessig Cagebreakers and Eldrazi Monument
Cagebreakers are so sick with a good filled GY. And Eldrazi Monument is a must have when you've got a nice Body/Token generation machine out.
Glissa, the Traitor with Pit Trap and/or Executioner's Capsule
Never ending removal, really nice and expandable.
Martial Coup & Co. to support Sweepers and Token generation
Scavenging Ooze to Eat all the "Mirror"-possibilities.
When you're interested in more thought's just ask or send a PM.
Cheers.
- Strands is definitely staying. I've thought about cutting Phyrexian Reclamation because it doesn't put the creature directly into play, but putting any creature directly into play at instant speed for two mana is incredible. Obviously, it works a little better with Urborg, but it's still plenty good by itself.
- Golgari Germination itself might not be the best card for the job, but the general effect is well worth it. Being able to get extra bodies from creatures dying is totally worth it. I chose the Germination over the likes of Requiem Angel and Field of Souls because it costs only 3 (Sun Titan) and I already had a creature with a similar effect (Pawn of Ulamog, also a three drop).
- Emeria is actually pretty easy to get online. In addition to the five basic Plains, I have two duals, two shocks, three fetches to dig them up, a Mistveil Plains, a Krosan Verge to dig up two duals, Wood Elves to fetch duals, Perilous Forays (if you read that card closer, you'll see that it can fetch duals), and Primeval Titan to get Emeria + another Plains.
@Kessig Cagebreakers: Two big problems with this guy. One, he needs to attack. That's not an easy thing to do in this format. Two, he needs a loaded graveyard, which invites people to point a Bojuka Bog at me. Granted, they already try to do that a lot, but I don't need more incentive to do that.
@Eldrazi Monument: I'm not exactly a dedicated token-making deck. That's probably better in Ghave.
@Glissa: She'd need a lot of cheap artifacts to be good, and that means cutting a lot of cards from the list to make room for more artifacts. I have a hard enough time making cuts for cards from the new sets.
@Martial Coup: Oddly enough, I don't really need more sweepers. This deck has quite a lot of removal already.
@Scavenging Ooze: All of mine are taken up by Legacy, and Withered Wretch is just better because the cost is colorless.
@False Prophet: Eeeew. Exiling my own stuff makes me cringe. Does this really work all that well for you?
@Cathar's Crusade: Eh, I'm still kinda on the fence, and I still need to find a spot for black Mikaeus.
@Blood Artist: I had his big brother Falkenrath Noble in my Grimgrin deck, which does almost as much sacrificing as this deck does. He was very much worth it. Getting this guy for half the price is a great bargain. I have no doubt he will be worth it.
@Harvester of Souls: Aside from 3cc or less, 6cc or more is also worth noting because of Fierce Empath. Also, the Clamp is insanely powerful, so anything close to it is good enough for me.
@Primal Surge: Not sure how many non-permanents you run, but this should instantly put at least half my remaining library onto the table. Can't imagine a better card for me.
EDIT: Any bright ideas on what to cut from this list? Off-hand, I'm thinking about the following:
- Genesis Wave for Primal Surge
- Phyrexian Arena for Harvester of Souls
- Phyrexian Reclamation for either Blood Artist or Restoration Angel
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Thx for looking closer. I see we all have similar thoughts with different a "taste". I like it.
Until yet Kessig Cagebreakers did a really great job in my deck so far. I know he's not a CiP'er but still, if you've got the boot's out he attacks the same turn he comes in, and he creates lot's of tokens. And normally I don't care if he eat's removal, he'll come back the turn after again.
The nice thing about our deck's with sac-outlets is, we've got always a nice answer to spells/removal like Path to Exile, we just sac our creature first to save it from being exiled.
I like boneshredder as well. But I don't run it in my "mulitplayer"-EDH deck. But so far if you need a second one of this kind of creature I hope you allready tried Nekrataal?
Sorry about Scavenging Ooze, I thought everybody who own's a Karador did buy the whole Commander Deck. My fault.
I definitely use my Ooze. He's really nice and does not need dual black mana like this other guy. And all the +1 counter's he might get are really usefull as well Especiall in the early game if I was lucky enough to have the Ooze from the beginning he can be really strong.
In my current deck version I'm using Lost Auramancers to catch Grave Pact. Do you guy's prefer Tutor's for dig for it?
Also Reaper from the Abyss is a house, he almost kills something at the end of every single turn.
Bojuka bog is in as well, it works so smooth withKnight of the Reliquary. I'm a big fan of redundance so I play Ooze, Bog, and Tormod's Crypt all together
At my location Glissa is irreplecable. I don't play a lot of Artifact's but the one's I do are really needed. Especially stuff like Jitte is removed really fast. So I'm always glad when I get my Glissa out to get it back
I thought about putting Karn (PW) in. Do you guys think he'll be worth a try?
@Lost Auramancers: As mentioned, it's hard enough to keep something alive for one turn. Three turns is totally out of the question.
@Glissa: If this package works for you, then by all means go for it. I run a similar package with Salvaging Station in another deck that works rather nicely.
@Karn Liberated: There are definitely pros and cons to running him over another card like Angel of Despair. On the plus side, he's colorless, he deals with indestructibles, and he deals with cards that don't die nicely (anything with undying or persist, for example). On the minus side, he's not a creature, so he's harder to reuse and doesn't really mesh with the rest of the deck. I guess it would come down to which of those differences matter to you.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Sorry for the big "delay". Had to much to do... Ehm no that's not really the case, I've had holidays and did not play that much magic or spent that much time behind the computer
I don't play Boneshredder nor Necrataal in my Multiplayer Karador. Just because they're to weak for that reason.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I'd use them in a 1v1 Karador Deck.
Have definitely to build a 1v1 Karador Deck, because I'm addicted to Birthing Pod and Necra and Bony would fit really well.
Back to the Multiplayer one.
Academy Rector really is better for the reason you said. At the moment unfortunately I can't find my one anymore, so I've to use the "cheap" one.
To keep him alive is not that hard as long as I can use Hex Parasite or try to "Combo" with Melira. I guess in the End I'll play both "Tutors" to get my lovely Grave Pact!
Just to insane with all tokens and sac outlets.
I did completely forget about False Prophet! I'll add him asap
Karn is not in for a try until I get a non foil copy of it... I'm putting only "non Foil" cards in my karador deck.
Do you guys play/like sweepers like Planar Cleansing & Final Judgment? I personally love them...
Maybe it would be a nice idea to put my list up, I'd like to know what you think about!
Have a nice day!
Not so here, the most stuff people play is not indestructible and the small amount of existing ones can be cleared with exile/sacrifice/steal answers.
There's only one sharuum player around who could set up s/t like all enchantments/artifacts are indestructible or get shroud etc. Oh ok there could be two, the Zur player has someting similar, but not really strong nor focussed on it.
"Mass"-exiling can hinder ya for to long if it's really needed.
Final Judgment is my favourite spell because I don't really care about my tokens, and before it resolves I'm able to sac. the creatures I really need (like we do now with Prophet^^).
So I'll play both because redundancy is really important for me. If I'd got "only one answer" in my whole deck and it get's discarded or alike the game is almost over.
Is there a thread somewhere where I'm able to post my Karador deck? Couldnt find one but I'm sure there's allready one up to discuss.
(I think it's the wrong place to post it here in the primer)