I dropped both Reya & Debtors Knell from my teneb deck due to them being A: expensive, B: only usable once per round & needing to live to your upkeep to use them, C: drawing a lot of hate(and my deck does enough of that already)
the only on upkeep recursion I kept in the deck is emeria since its harder to get rid of & easier to play... though admittedly getting 7 plains in teneb is not the easiest to do(especially as I only run 8)with primeval titan .... if I try to get emeria active its usualy not hard
I dropped both Reya & Debtors Knell from my teneb deck due to them being A: expensive, B: only usable once per round & needing to live to your upkeep to use them, C: drawing a lot of hate(and my deck does enough of that already)
the only on upkeep recursion I kept in the deck is emeria since its harder to get rid of & easier to play... though admittedly getting 7 plains in teneb is not the easiest to do(especially as I only run 8)with primeval titan .... if I try to get emeria active its usualy not hard
Would you mind posting your current list, Dhamon? I'm basically toying with your list, but went on and changed a couple of things and would like to see your preferences.
About relying on Teneb to tho the recursion- where we play, opponents kinda try not to let him connect. But it's good, since they are distracted and i can do a bunch of other things, like cast Tooth and Nail or Titans. Thats the reason i like Genesis Wave and Geth so much- they are brutal in non GY-related way (even Geth). Over the course of 3 games i got my GY removed like 10 times.
So, on to the games i played last week.
We played for 14 hours straight and barely played 3,5 games. I played against
-Progenitus (bunch of cantripping, playing Charms, until Mystical Tutor for Obliterate),
-Oros (lightly GY related deck and some deathtouching for the general), -Meloku (kinda Azami wizzards buth with Meloku) and
-Tolsimir Wolfblood (green fatty with white for removal)
So, we play this first game. I won that game with Emeria online. Tolsimir cast and recurred Terastradon all the time and the jokes about Emeria were flying high, bt they let it live. Then i hit Crucible and won. Moral of the story? Now at leas one player keeps check of my plains count
For the second game the blue mage joined the table. We were playing the usual starting 10 turns (usually Tolsimir casting his bombs like Tooth and Nail, Wild Pair and Greater Good and us stopping it). Then progenitus decided its Obliterate time.. What he did forget is that the Meloku player had his general out and was untapped with 6 mana = bad play. So he reset us other players into dust, then he had to go home. The game lasted for 2 more hours, but the blue mage reigned victorious. I was on 4 life for more than an hour, and had Spike Weaver with shroud in play, so i managed to stay afloat, until they killed both the equipement and the bug, then me. I still hit blue guy with Marit Lage with shroud (after Obliterate i had 2 lands in play and Dark Depths, i hit SDT, spin, find second black source, then spin again and find Greaves, Knight of the Relinquary and Vampire Hexmage. After he got hit with token, someone destroyed greaves and i played Knigh, that was also 20/20 (tnx obliterate), but they couldn't connect because of Fatestitcher and Icy Manipulator. Tolsimir killed me, and then both Oros and Tolsimir lost to sheer card advantage of blue player.
The third game Oros switched to Red Akroma deck. We started off pretty good, and Akroma hit me with Sundering Titan and killed my 6 lands with no regret. I hit Hermit Druid and then Oracle of Mul-Daya, so i recovered pretty fast. Tolsimir played his regular game, trying to time his white swords effects on my creatures if possible. After some time Akroma put Static Orb into play, and later when it got destroyed, Winter Orb. We crawled a bit, i untapped some lands, then i hit Diabolic Tutor. I tutored for Urborg (with untapped Coffers and still tapped Deserted Temple. I Wave-d for six and hit: Fierce Empath, Animate Dead, Volrath's Stronghold, Plains, Oblivion Stone, Lurking Predators. Pretty wow if u ask me. I Animated Primeval Titan for more busted lands (Cradle and Vesuva) and tutored for and equipped shroud on Geth. Tolsimir showed me Path to Exile but i had Necrotic Sliver, Volrath's Stronghold and Lurking Predators in play. I got one turn, busted Geth so hard the blue mage stayed only on 10-15 cards left in his library. Then Akroma cast Decree of Anihilation. And hoped for concession.
I still had Lurking Predators in play so i proceed to play. I got Forest and Ancient tomb into play and could hardcast Wood elves and Fauna Shaman into play, but nothing else. I killed off Akroma (he was at 12 when he Decree'd), then got Wurmcoil Engine via Lurking Predators. Then the remaining two players bounced/destroyed my offensive (Tolsimir hit like 7 lands after decree) and the blue player won via some flying flash faerie.
Me, after i hit Genesis Wave and several beers. Yes, they intoxicated me to draw that win away from me, those c***s..
Anyway, some fun games, but we could play an additional one or two, if it weren't for those pesky red mages that envy our broken plays and then nuke the board. If i knew better i would just Geth the Clone several times and nuke Akroma's board.
This is unfortunately correct. I have been looking on eBay for a copy, but the minimum price is roughly $40, and if I wanted to spend that much on a single card, I'd go with Primeval Titan. Honestly, I don't miss it all that much, between the other five duals, the Tainted lands, the filter lands, and all the mana fixing I have.
I dropped both Reya & Debtors Knell from my teneb deck due to them being A: expensive, B: only usable once per round & needing to live to your upkeep to use them, C: drawing a lot of hate(and my deck does enough of that already)
the only on upkeep recursion I kept in the deck is emeria since its harder to get rid of & easier to play... though admittedly getting 7 plains in teneb is not the easiest to do(especially as I only run 8)with primeval titan .... if I try to get emeria active its usualy not hard
That is exactly why I cut both Reya and Debtor's Knell.
In addition to Emeria, I also run Oversold Cemetery (cheap, harder to kill, not too broken, cool German copy) and Genesis (cheap, hard to remove, costs mana so I don't always use it).
What would you cut for Necrotic Ooze and why no Sol Ring?
I haven't really taken the time to examine Necrotic Ooze and determine if he's worth it. I've heard great things about Geth, so he's gonna replace Puppeteer Clique for awhile.
Sol Ring is one of those that's good in every deck, but my only copy is in a deck that needs it much more than this one does (same with my only Survival of the Fittest).
1 Word... GLORY. This card is just AMAZING in Teneb. It makes sure Teneb hits people so you can bring stuff back... u can finish games with it by making your team near unblockable... it makes sure Teneb and other important creatures stay alive... it is normally easy to get into the GY since Teneb list run cards put stuff into it Survial ect... IMO its a staple in any Teneb deck.
Plus, it is a really fun card to play in multiplayer people dont bother to spot removal your dudes because of it.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
I don't run Debtors' Knell or Reya, but I also don't run Emeria. I don't run either of the former because they are both very expensive, and sit there for a full turn rotation before even doing anything. While both can be strong, they're very slow and are easily answered. If my opponents can't actually answer them, there are other things I could be doing that would win just as well and in far less time. As for Emeria, I only run 8 Plains, and I'd rather not play another EtBT land that requires such a specific condition to bring online and doesn't provide any manafixing.
My deck currently has Genesis, Phyrexian Reclamation, and Sun Titan for repeated recursion, and that's all I've found it really needs besides the general. I am, however, planning to switch my general to Karador once he becomes available, because I like his form of recursion better than Teneb's.
I'm also gonna be giving Karador a shot once he becomes available. I'm having a hard time connecting with Teneb lately (Glory might be a good answer), and Karador seems like he would make a more immediate impact. That being said, the value of being able to use other people's graveyards is very nice.
I agree with Glory. An amazing card in this deck, and with it being in the graveyard for it's effect makes it often a surprise and hard to counter. If I get Buried Alive early in the game, I throw it in the graveyard along with Genesis and Eternal Witness.
I agree with Glory. An amazing card in this deck, and with it being in the graveyard for it's effect makes it often a surprise and hard to counter. If I get Buried Alive early in the game, I throw it in the graveyard along with Genesis and Eternal Witness.
Buried Alive has already been discussed in this thread, so I won't rehash it. As for Glory, I'd be willing to try it if I ever found a copy.
@Molten Shark: In addition to those three recursion cards you mentioned, I'm also trying Strands of Night. The activation cost is a little steeper, but putting a creature directly into play at instant speed is pretty sick.
I would definitely find a spot for primeval Titan; one of the best cards in green. Yavimaya granger seems like like the best thing to take out for it.
Gutless ghoul seems pretty bad to me. If you are just using it as a sac outlet I would play martyr's cause instead. It's an enchantment so harder to get rid of, and it's very good utility against general damage decks. Uril can't get through when this is out without killing it.
Another card I would strongly suggest is privileged position. Troll shroud for all your permanents and works really well with sterling grove.
I would definitely find a spot for primeval Titan; one of the best cards in green. Yavimaya granger seems like like the best thing to take out for it.
Gutless ghoul seems pretty bad to me. If you are just using it as a sac outlet I would play martyr's cause instead. It's an enchantment so harder to get rid of, and it's very good utility against general damage decks. Uril can't get through when this is out without killing it.
Another card I would strongly suggest is privileged position. Troll shroud for all your permanents and works really well with sterling grove.
Gutless Ghoul has not been all that exciting for me lately, and now that I have Claws of Gix, it is a bit redundant. Yavimaya Granger is also pretty redundant with Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves. However, the Granger is probably better than one of the mana artifacts because it is easier to kill and then re-animate for additional value. I think I'd probably cut a mana artifact befire I cut the Granger.
Not sure if I need Martyr's Cause or not. My local group doesn't really have any "general damage" decks, but it is definitely a good utility suggestion.
I would agree on the Privileged Position. I run it in my deck, and if it sticks it just makes the deck so much harder to interact with for your opponents. One of my favorite uses for Academy Rector is responding to removal by using it to tutor the Position into play, fizzling the removal. It's also nearly impossible to remove if you have a Sterling Grove out too.
So, we don't need to take care of Emrakul anymore. Thank god.
@Molten Shark: How has Seedborn Muse + Vedalken Orrery been working for you? Sounds tempting, but i don't really run that many tutors to find Orrery.. Seems nice to play instant speed answers..
Seedborn Muse is pretty good even without the Orrery. It gives your creatures pseudo-vigilance, it leaves your lands untapped so you can bluff tricks (or use ones you really have), and it allows you to fully abuse any mana sinks you have each turn. Vedalken Orrery doesn't need the Muse either, since merely giving your spells flash is insanely powerful. Every time I drop it I just feel dirty.
Of course both together is simply nuts, but they each are strong enough on their own that I have never considered removing either from the deck.
Primevil Titan and Fierce Empath are pretty nice, after testing for a long while, I can confidently say that both deserve to stay. I'd personally like to fit in a Grave Titan, just for another Fierce Empath target and something that would be fantastic to recur.
I would definitely like to find a place for Privileged Position and Academy Rector though, just a matter of what to cut I'd also like to find room for Tajuru Preserver. What do you guys think and what do you guys think could be cut for these?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
~Standard~
RDW
:symb::symg::symw: Harvester Pod :symw::symg::symb:
~EDH/Commander~
:symb::symg::symw: Teneb, the Harvester :symw::symg::symb:
:symw::symb::symr: Kaalia of the Vast :symr::symb::symw:
:symw::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter :symb::symw:
:symg::symw::symu: Rafiq of the Many :symu::symw::symg:
:symw::symu: Sygg, River Guide :symu::symw:
Primevil Titan and Fierce Empath are pretty nice, after testing for a long while, I can confidently say that both deserve to stay. I'd personally like to fit in a Grave Titan, just for another Fierce Empath target and something that would be fantastic to recur.
I would definitely like to find a place for Privileged Position and Academy Rector though, just a matter of what to cut I'd also like to find room for Tajuru Preserver. What do you guys think and what do you guys think could be cut for these?
If I knew what to cut, I'd certainly tell you, but my guess is that everything cuttable has probably already been cut. The only thing I can think of would be something like the mana artifacts, since we already run about a half-dozen dudes that search for lands.
So far I replaced Darksteel Ingot with Privileged Position, Mox Diamond with Leyline of Sanctity (to compliment Sterling Grove and abuse Rector), Life of the Loam with Academy Rector (I haven't ever played LotL), and Viscera Seer with Grave Titan (I feel we've got enough sac opportunities, even if Viscera Seer was a free sac opp.) I haven't put Tajuru in, only because someone helping me sac my crap doesn't sound too bad as of yet.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
~Standard~
RDW
:symb::symg::symw: Harvester Pod :symw::symg::symb:
~EDH/Commander~
:symb::symg::symw: Teneb, the Harvester :symw::symg::symb:
:symw::symb::symr: Kaalia of the Vast :symr::symb::symw:
:symw::symb: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter :symb::symw:
:symg::symw::symu: Rafiq of the Many :symu::symw::symg:
:symw::symu: Sygg, River Guide :symu::symw:
There's really no reason to run Tajuru Preserver, especially since Emrakul has been banned. It's just far too narrow of an answer, and has no other redeeming qualities since it's tiny and has no other abilities.
Leyline of Sanctity also seems rather narrow. You can only get one use out of Academy Rector, and there are several other enchantments that are much more abusive for it to find. It's not that bad, but I don't think it's worth a valuable deck slot.
There's really no reason to run Tajuru Preserver, especially since Emrakul has been banned. It's just far too narrow of an answer, and has no other redeeming qualities since it's tiny and has no other abilities.
Agreed. In addition to this, Helm of Possession is a much better answer to Emrakul than the Preserver is.
Leyline of Sanctity also seems rather narrow. You can only get one use out of Academy Rector, and there are several other enchantments that are much more abusive for it to find. It's not that bad, but I don't think it's worth a valuable deck slot.
The only reason I could see this being good is to prevent things like Tormod's Crypt and Bojuka Bog from targeting us.
Normally when I see a PREMIER I guess I tend to think 'Tested and Proven... good at spanking'.. however thus far I've not had that kind of luck when deck testing this (about 15 games now).
If I'm allowed to get going than sure, it reanimates the ☺☺☺☺ out of everything and destruction occurs, but I really think there are some really wasteful cards in here that don't need to be... along with some cards that really do need to be in here. My comments below.
My New Tests will have these cards In/Out.
OUT:
-Forest - Adding Murmuring Bosk...
-Bloodghast - This card is straight up stupid for EDH.. a 2/1? Yea.. late game My opponent is really going to be worried about it.
-Knight of the Reliquary - With everything else that's in here i've had little problem with that.
-Strands of Night - Normally by the time i can run this, I'm down to 15 life and I can't spare 2 life to bring a fatty back.. It is recursion but thus far it's been a dead card in my hand every time i've had it.
-Krovikan Horror - I've not been able to get anything cranking with this.. I really wanted to see the interaction with token creating for going to GY..
-Farhaven Elf - 1/1 Basic Land for 3? Time to go bye bye
-Claws of Grix - 1 life? no thanks.. Better sac outlet
-Nim Deathmantle - To expensive recursion..
-Withered Wretch - For the amount this guy is actually going to do you can find something better to sit in that spot..
-Riftsweeper - Neat idea... dead card every time I saw it though and My group plays a great deal of graveyard hate..
-Mox Diamond - Had enough land trouble without discarding.. would rather have had Sol Ring..
-Life of the Loam - Without strands of the night in here.. this card really doesn't need to be in.
-Coalition Relic - Not a huge fan of this.. To expensive for excel.
-Perilous Forays - Normally when I have 5 mana I have more important things to do..
-Planar Cleansing - Would rather have a wrath for two less.
-Field of Souls - Removed.. put into my graveyard isn't as good when I'm sacing tokens to kill opponents stuff.
-Diabolic Intent - For Diabolic Tutor..
-Orcal of Mul Day - Didn't want opponents seeing what fun I had instore.. most times a dead card.
Yeah, maybe you don't know because you didn't try enough?
-Bloodghast - the theme is saccing creatures for Grave Pact effects? Did you notice that?
-Knight of the Reliquary - Lands are like the strongest card type in EDH, everybody is afraid of my lads. This guy tutors any land..
-Strands of Night - Is good.
-Krovikan Horror - Is more of an engine piece for Survival effects than everathing..
-Farhaven Elf - You know why those are played here instead of Sol Ring and the bumch? Obviously not..
-Claws of Grix - The cheapest anti-steal/sac outlet you are going to find.. Life doesn't really matter, its a bonus.
-Life of the Loam - Sure, i'll play tri-colored commander deck with green without Loam cause i can.. right. Lands are good, so people tend to destroy them..
-Coalition Relic - this is busted acceleration/fixer. 2 mana 2 colors? Tnx.
-Perilous Forays - This is good with tokens/Bloodghast, 5 mana is soon in game with Wood Elves and the bunch or ur doing it wrong.
-Planar Cleansing - This is better than Wrath.
-Field of Souls - very good, you just need to work a bit, its the pieces, not bombs.
-Orcal of Mul Day - This plus Crucible/Loam is amazing, i don't know you guys don't play LD?
The cards you listed are good, but do nothing for the said deck (except for Sol Ring, Titan and Demonic Tutor, i would play these too).
-Forest - Adding Murmuring Bosk...
-Bloodghast - This card is straight up stupid for EDH.. a 2/1? Yea.. late game My opponent is really going to be worried about it.
-Knight of the Reliquary - With everything else that's in here i've had little problem with that.
-Strands of Night - Normally by the time i can run this, I'm down to 15 life and I can't spare 2 life to bring a fatty back.. It is recursion but thus far it's been a dead card in my hand every time i've had it.
-Krovikan Horror - I've not been able to get anything cranking with this.. I really wanted to see the interaction with token creating for going to GY..
-Farhaven Elf - 1/1 Basic Land for 3? Time to go bye bye
-Claws of Grix - 1 life? no thanks.. Better sac outlet
-Nim Deathmantle - To expensive recursion..
-Withered Wretch - For the amount this guy is actually going to do you can find something better to sit in that spot..
-Riftsweeper - Neat idea... dead card every time I saw it though and My group plays a great deal of graveyard hate..
-Mox Diamond - Had enough land trouble without discarding.. would rather have had Sol Ring..
-Life of the Loam - Without strands of the night in here.. this card really doesn't need to be in.
-Coalition Relic - Not a huge fan of this.. To expensive for excel.
-Perilous Forays - Normally when I have 5 mana I have more important things to do..
-Planar Cleansing - Would rather have a wrath for two less.
-Field of Souls - Removed.. put into my graveyard isn't as good when I'm sacing tokens to kill opponents stuff.
-Diabolic Intent - For Diabolic Tutor..
-Orcal of Mul Day - Didn't want opponents seeing what fun I had instore.. most times a dead card.
I'll let you know how the testing goes.. but I believe this is going to really up things..
It sounds like Exorbloom skipped right over the section on WHY each of these cards gets played. I'll try to recap a few of the highlights for you.
First of all, this is NOT just another "BGW good-stuff" deck. Just because a certain card is great in a vacuum doesn't mean it's good enough for me. Instead, my deck tries to focus on as many synergies and interactions as possible. For example, a card like Tooth and Nail is a really good card in most situations, but paying 9 mana to put two creatures of my choice into play is not something I really need, and that spell is not very easy to recur or re-use. Conversely, a card like Farhaven Elf has a lot of positive interactions with the rest of my deck: it ramps and fixes, it's easy to sacrifice to Perilous Forays or Skullclamp, and it's easy to bring right back into play with Reveillark or Sun Titan.
Furthermore, my deck tries to focus on as much re-usability as possible. That means I try to limit the number of one-time spells (instants/sorceries) and replace them with permanents that continuously do the same thing, and can easily be brought back if they get killed off. For example, I run Necrotic Sliver over Vindicate because the Sliver can trigger other cards like Grave Pact and Field of Souls when it eventually dies, and can be brought back by Oversold Cemetery and Genesis.
Finally, two of my favorite "pet cards" are Reveillark and Sun Titan. Other spells that happen to fit underneath these two get additional bonus points from me.
As for your individual choices, I'll try my best to defend them:
- Forest: I always seem to forget about Murmuring Bosk, and it seems like a fine upgrade. Just need to find one...
- Bloodghast: This card is strictly there for sacrifice fodder and easy recursion. I abuse the hell out of Grave Pact as my primary source of removal, but this guy also works very well with all of my other sacrifice outlets and graveyard triggers.
- Knight of the Reliquary: This reusable tutor definitely pulls its weight. I have a fair amount of utility lands, and this card makes sure that I find them. If I need recursion, I go for Volrath's Stronghold. If I need a sac outlet, I have Phyrexian Tower and Miren, the Moaning Well. Plus, it interacts very well with Crucible of Worlds, Sun Titan, and Reveillark.
- Strands of Night: It's instant-speed recursion that goes directly into play. That is a very powerful effect for me.
- Krovikan Horror: I found this relic on Gatherer and I'm glad that I did. He does three very nice things: removal, a sacrifice outlet, and self-resurrects himself.
- Farhaven Elf: Most people run Signets or cards like Rampant Growth for acceleration. This card is a Rampant Growth-effect plus a body that is easy to sacrifice and then reanimate for even more use. A typical cycle of plays with this guy involves casting him on turn three, then sacrificing him to something like Perilous Forays or Skullclamp, then casting Sun Titan and bringing him back again, and repeat.
- Claws of Gix: This card is like an insurance policy. It makes sure that any card in play will get some value if it dies. The fact that I can sacrifice non-creature permanents that might die is even more useful.
- Nim Deathmantle: This card was just recently added, and I haven't had too much time to see how it works, but so far it's been very nice. One of the things I'm trying to do more of lately is find ways to recur other people's threats as well as my own, in order to prevent graveyard hate from affecting me as much. I'm not 100% sure that this card is here to stay, but so far I like it.
- Withered Wretch: This is the perfect graveyard-hater for me. It's size makes it easy to cast and recur, and its ability to remove only the specific cards that I want and leave the other cards where they can still be useful. It also helps that the ability can be activated at instant speed.
- Riftsweeper: I put this in to try and recover from massive graveyard haters because some of my friends were altering their decks to specifically beat me. I'll admit that this guy isn't the most powerful spell in my deck, but his ability is one-of-a-kind.
- Mox Diamond: I just put this in, and haven't had the chance to use it, but I usually don't have problems finding lands, and turn 1 acceleration is hard to come by. Sol Ring would be nice, but my only copy is in another deck that needs it much more than this one does.
- Life from the Loam: I'm actually using this card less and less lately, but it's still good with the Knight, Strands, and all my fetchlands.
- Coalition Relic: It's no more expensive than my creatures that search for lands. I put it in here instead of a Signet, and it's never been a problem.
- Perilous Forays: This card does so many good things for me. The combination of a sac outlet and a continuous source of ramping is excellent. My deck averages about 20-25 lands in play every game, and this is a big reason why.
- Planar Cleansing: This is just better than Wrath. Creatures are incredibly easy to kill, whereas non-creature permanents are not. This is a mistake that most new EDH players often overlook. Furthermore, a lot of my friends run artifact/enchantment based strategies, so it is even more important to be able to kill non-creature permanents. As for the additional cost, it's never been an issue because I ramp so well.
- Field of Souls: This is one of many graveyard triggers that provide additional value whenever I sacrifice something. It helps keep a continuous stream of bodies on the table at my disposal.
- Diabolic Intent: With all the fodder I have lying around (Bloodghast, Farhaven Elf, tokens), this is basically Demonic Tutor #2. It's much better than Diabolic Tutor. I've never had a problem finding a body to sacrifice, and since the sacrifice is part of the cost to cast the spell, they can't respond by killing the guy I want to sacrifice. Plus, I bought a cool European foil one on eBay.
- Oracle of Mul Daya: Umm...really? This card is great by itself, and insane with a Top, or a Crucible and a fetchland. It's a staple green card, not going anywhere.
- Bloodthrone Vampire: I want my sac outlets to have a permanent effect on the game, not a temporary boost that doesn't last past the end of my turn.
- Primeval Titan: In as soon as I can come up with the $50 to buy one.
- Sol Ring: See above for why it's not in here. If I find another copy, it'll probably replace Coalition Relic first.
- Damnation, Day of Judgment: Not versatile enough. Mass removal needs to do more than just wipe creatures. Cost is not an obstacle.
- Condemn: A one-shot effect that has no interaction or synergy with anything else in my deck. I might consider Hallowed Burial...at least that card hits ALL the generals. Furthermore, I'd rather kill the general over and over again with Grave Pact triggers.
- Demonic Tutor: It's already there. Diabolic Tutor could replace Beseech the Queen, maybe. If I can get ahold of a Vampiric Tutor, that will certainly go in here.
- Demon of Death's Gate: This card carries an inherent risk of getting yourself blown out. For the same price, white Akroma has no risk of card-disadvantage. Furthermore, I don't really need to rely on big fatties that have no interaction with anything else in the deck.
- Yosei, the Morning Star: Another big fattie that doesn't recur very easily (too big for Reveillark and Sun Titan) and only affects one player at the table.
- Garruk Wildspeaker: Of his three abilities, the untapping part is OK, the token-making is kinda slow (Creakwood Liege and Field of Souls, etc), and the Overrun is not really necessary as my creatures don't live long enough to attack. Overall, kinda meh.
- Lord of Extinction: Vanilla beater that has no abilities whatsoever, not even a little evasion. No thanks.
- Vulturous Zombie: At least this guy flies, but it's still just a vanilla beater with no abilities. If I wanted a vanilla flyer, I'd go with Divinity of Pride.
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant: Great card, but it draws the negative attention of everyone else on the table. It's emblem effect isn't even all that useful...I don't care if my guys die because I can just make more or bring them back.
- Pernicious Deed: Like Primeval Titan and Vampiric Tutor, a great card that I haven't saved the cash to acquire yet.
- Bitterblossom: Cards that have to wait until my upkeep are usually too slow, and I have other token-makers that do a better job.
- Reya Dawnbringer: No way this card survives until my upkeep, no way I'm waiting until then to reanimate something.
- Tooth and Nail: A fine card, but it's pretty tough to cast and to re-use. I have enough tutors already.
In general, I don't think you grasp the goals and strategies of my deck very well. As I've stated before, this is not simply a generic "good stuff" deck, but instead a deck that relies on all the subtle but effective interactions between the cards. I will admit that there are a few more expensive spells that I have not yet acquired, but for the most part this deck is pretty solid right now. Also, keep in mind that there are over 10,000 legal card choices to fit into only 99 slots, so there's always going to be more than one way to build a good deck.
Reading through your changes, I do agree on many of the points you have presented. I was mainly playing it in a 1v1 setting which would make many more of the cards I added in relevant I believe.. in a multiplayer game I could see them not helping nearly as much.
I still think that the wraths are needed to kill a token deck.. the few times I've played against a set of token decks, and they just over-ran me as I couldn't sac enough things to get them under control. When you have doubling season, and a few token generators facing you down without a way to destroy DS things get out of control quickly. I think there could be other situations as well, this was just the one which dawned on me.
Good points on the vanilla beater, hadn't thought about them as such until your point. Good to think of things that way.
Thank you for your comments back, it's helped me refine my other decks!
the only on upkeep recursion I kept in the deck is emeria since its harder to get rid of & easier to play... though admittedly getting 7 plains in teneb is not the easiest to do(especially as I only run 8)with primeval titan .... if I try to get emeria active its usualy not hard
Playing:
Modern:
BWEldrazi and TaxesBW
Legacy:
WEldraziW
Would you mind posting your current list, Dhamon? I'm basically toying with your list, but went on and changed a couple of things and would like to see your preferences.
About relying on Teneb to tho the recursion- where we play, opponents kinda try not to let him connect. But it's good, since they are distracted and i can do a bunch of other things, like cast Tooth and Nail or Titans. Thats the reason i like Genesis Wave and Geth so much- they are brutal in non GY-related way (even Geth). Over the course of 3 games i got my GY removed like 10 times.
So, on to the games i played last week.
We played for 14 hours straight and barely played 3,5 games. I played against
-Progenitus (bunch of cantripping, playing Charms, until Mystical Tutor for Obliterate),
-Oros (lightly GY related deck and some deathtouching for the general), -Meloku (kinda Azami wizzards buth with Meloku) and
-Tolsimir Wolfblood (green fatty with white for removal)
So, we play this first game. I won that game with Emeria online. Tolsimir cast and recurred Terastradon all the time and the jokes about Emeria were flying high, bt they let it live. Then i hit Crucible and won. Moral of the story? Now at leas one player keeps check of my plains count
For the second game the blue mage joined the table. We were playing the usual starting 10 turns (usually Tolsimir casting his bombs like Tooth and Nail, Wild Pair and Greater Good and us stopping it). Then progenitus decided its Obliterate time.. What he did forget is that the Meloku player had his general out and was untapped with 6 mana = bad play. So he reset us other players into dust, then he had to go home. The game lasted for 2 more hours, but the blue mage reigned victorious. I was on 4 life for more than an hour, and had Spike Weaver with shroud in play, so i managed to stay afloat, until they killed both the equipement and the bug, then me. I still hit blue guy with Marit Lage with shroud (after Obliterate i had 2 lands in play and Dark Depths, i hit SDT, spin, find second black source, then spin again and find Greaves, Knight of the Relinquary and Vampire Hexmage. After he got hit with token, someone destroyed greaves and i played Knigh, that was also 20/20 (tnx obliterate), but they couldn't connect because of Fatestitcher and Icy Manipulator. Tolsimir killed me, and then both Oros and Tolsimir lost to sheer card advantage of blue player.
The third game Oros switched to Red Akroma deck. We started off pretty good, and Akroma hit me with Sundering Titan and killed my 6 lands with no regret. I hit Hermit Druid and then Oracle of Mul-Daya, so i recovered pretty fast. Tolsimir played his regular game, trying to time his white swords effects on my creatures if possible. After some time Akroma put Static Orb into play, and later when it got destroyed, Winter Orb. We crawled a bit, i untapped some lands, then i hit Diabolic Tutor. I tutored for Urborg (with untapped Coffers and still tapped Deserted Temple. I Wave-d for six and hit: Fierce Empath, Animate Dead, Volrath's Stronghold, Plains, Oblivion Stone, Lurking Predators. Pretty wow if u ask me. I Animated Primeval Titan for more busted lands (Cradle and Vesuva) and tutored for and equipped shroud on Geth. Tolsimir showed me Path to Exile but i had Necrotic Sliver, Volrath's Stronghold and Lurking Predators in play. I got one turn, busted Geth so hard the blue mage stayed only on 10-15 cards left in his library. Then Akroma cast Decree of Anihilation. And hoped for concession.
I still had Lurking Predators in play so i proceed to play. I got Forest and Ancient tomb into play and could hardcast Wood elves and Fauna Shaman into play, but nothing else. I killed off Akroma (he was at 12 when he Decree'd), then got Wurmcoil Engine via Lurking Predators. Then the remaining two players bounced/destroyed my offensive (Tolsimir hit like 7 lands after decree) and the blue player won via some flying flash faerie.
Me, after i hit Genesis Wave and several beers. Yes, they intoxicated me to draw that win away from me, those c***s..
This is unfortunately correct. I have been looking on eBay for a copy, but the minimum price is roughly $40, and if I wanted to spend that much on a single card, I'd go with Primeval Titan. Honestly, I don't miss it all that much, between the other five duals, the Tainted lands, the filter lands, and all the mana fixing I have.
That is exactly why I cut both Reya and Debtor's Knell.
In addition to Emeria, I also run Oversold Cemetery (cheap, harder to kill, not too broken, cool German copy) and Genesis (cheap, hard to remove, costs mana so I don't always use it).
I haven't really taken the time to examine Necrotic Ooze and determine if he's worth it. I've heard great things about Geth, so he's gonna replace Puppeteer Clique for awhile.
Sol Ring is one of those that's good in every deck, but my only copy is in a deck that needs it much more than this one does (same with my only Survival of the Fittest).
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Plus, it is a really fun card to play in multiplayer people dont bother to spot removal your dudes because of it.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
My deck currently has Genesis, Phyrexian Reclamation, and Sun Titan for repeated recursion, and that's all I've found it really needs besides the general. I am, however, planning to switch my general to Karador once he becomes available, because I like his form of recursion better than Teneb's.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
Buried Alive has already been discussed in this thread, so I won't rehash it. As for Glory, I'd be willing to try it if I ever found a copy.
@Molten Shark: In addition to those three recursion cards you mentioned, I'm also trying Strands of Night. The activation cost is a little steeper, but putting a creature directly into play at instant speed is pretty sick.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Gutless ghoul seems pretty bad to me. If you are just using it as a sac outlet I would play martyr's cause instead. It's an enchantment so harder to get rid of, and it's very good utility against general damage decks. Uril can't get through when this is out without killing it.
Another card I would strongly suggest is privileged position. Troll shroud for all your permanents and works really well with sterling grove.
Gutless Ghoul has not been all that exciting for me lately, and now that I have Claws of Gix, it is a bit redundant. Yavimaya Granger is also pretty redundant with Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves. However, the Granger is probably better than one of the mana artifacts because it is easier to kill and then re-animate for additional value. I think I'd probably cut a mana artifact befire I cut the Granger.
Not sure if I need Martyr's Cause or not. My local group doesn't really have any "general damage" decks, but it is definitely a good utility suggestion.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
@Molten Shark: How has Seedborn Muse + Vedalken Orrery been working for you? Sounds tempting, but i don't really run that many tutors to find Orrery.. Seems nice to play instant speed answers..
Of course both together is simply nuts, but they each are strong enough on their own that I have never considered removing either from the deck.
I would definitely like to find a place for Privileged Position and Academy Rector though, just a matter of what to cut I'd also like to find room for Tajuru Preserver. What do you guys think and what do you guys think could be cut for these?
RDW
:symb::symg::symw: Harvester Pod :symw::symg::symb:
~EDH/Commander~
:symb::symg::symw: Teneb, the Harvester :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Rafiq of the Many :symu::symw::symg:
:symw::symu: Sygg, River Guide :symu::symw:
If I knew what to cut, I'd certainly tell you, but my guess is that everything cuttable has probably already been cut. The only thing I can think of would be something like the mana artifacts, since we already run about a half-dozen dudes that search for lands.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
RDW
:symb::symg::symw: Harvester Pod :symw::symg::symb:
~EDH/Commander~
:symb::symg::symw: Teneb, the Harvester :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Rafiq of the Many :symu::symw::symg:
:symw::symu: Sygg, River Guide :symu::symw:
Leyline of Sanctity also seems rather narrow. You can only get one use out of Academy Rector, and there are several other enchantments that are much more abusive for it to find. It's not that bad, but I don't think it's worth a valuable deck slot.
Agreed. In addition to this, Helm of Possession is a much better answer to Emrakul than the Preserver is.
The only reason I could see this being good is to prevent things like Tormod's Crypt and Bojuka Bog from targeting us.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Hmm...not a bad idea.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
If I'm allowed to get going than sure, it reanimates the ☺☺☺☺ out of everything and destruction occurs, but I really think there are some really wasteful cards in here that don't need to be... along with some cards that really do need to be in here. My comments below.
My New Tests will have these cards In/Out.
OUT:
-Forest - Adding Murmuring Bosk...
-Bloodghast - This card is straight up stupid for EDH.. a 2/1? Yea.. late game My opponent is really going to be worried about it.
-Knight of the Reliquary - With everything else that's in here i've had little problem with that.
-Strands of Night - Normally by the time i can run this, I'm down to 15 life and I can't spare 2 life to bring a fatty back.. It is recursion but thus far it's been a dead card in my hand every time i've had it.
-Krovikan Horror - I've not been able to get anything cranking with this.. I really wanted to see the interaction with token creating for going to GY..
-Farhaven Elf - 1/1 Basic Land for 3? Time to go bye bye
-Claws of Grix - 1 life? no thanks.. Better sac outlet
-Nim Deathmantle - To expensive recursion..
-Withered Wretch - For the amount this guy is actually going to do you can find something better to sit in that spot..
-Riftsweeper - Neat idea... dead card every time I saw it though and My group plays a great deal of graveyard hate..
-Mox Diamond - Had enough land trouble without discarding.. would rather have had Sol Ring..
-Life of the Loam - Without strands of the night in here.. this card really doesn't need to be in.
-Coalition Relic - Not a huge fan of this.. To expensive for excel.
-Perilous Forays - Normally when I have 5 mana I have more important things to do..
-Planar Cleansing - Would rather have a wrath for two less.
-Field of Souls - Removed.. put into my graveyard isn't as good when I'm sacing tokens to kill opponents stuff.
-Diabolic Intent - For Diabolic Tutor..
-Orcal of Mul Day - Didn't want opponents seeing what fun I had instore.. most times a dead card.
TESTING:
-Murmuring Bosk
-Bloodthrone Vampire Nothing like sacing to beef up a ☺☺☺☺ty guy and spanking one of their doods.
-Primeval Titan Get me some good lands
-Sol Ring This card is an auto include.. takes out the Mox Diamond
-Damnation - Mass Removal needed.
-Day of Judgement - More Mass Removal
-Condem - Cya General
-Demonic Tutor - Lets get some tutoring going..
-Demon of Death's Gate - 3 creatures that I can recur? deal!
-Yosei, the Morning Star - Solid card to bring back..
-Garruck Wildspeaker - Land Excel, Over-run, Tokens..
-Lord of Extinction - I'm killing things? Time to pump!
-Vulturous Zombie - Kiling their things I grow!
-Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Let's make some tokens
-Pernicious Deed - Dear Sun Titan, lets be friends.
-Bitterblossom - More tokens to kill things.
-Reya Dawnbringer - Can I reanimate you?
-Tooth and Nail - Oh Hey Reya and other amazing card.
I'll let you know how the testing goes.. but I believe this is going to really up things..
Gaddock Teeg
Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
Braids, Conjurer Adept
-Bloodghast - the theme is saccing creatures for Grave Pact effects? Did you notice that?
-Knight of the Reliquary - Lands are like the strongest card type in EDH, everybody is afraid of my lads. This guy tutors any land..
-Strands of Night - Is good.
-Krovikan Horror - Is more of an engine piece for Survival effects than everathing..
-Farhaven Elf - You know why those are played here instead of Sol Ring and the bumch? Obviously not..
-Claws of Grix - The cheapest anti-steal/sac outlet you are going to find.. Life doesn't really matter, its a bonus.
-Life of the Loam - Sure, i'll play tri-colored commander deck with green without Loam cause i can.. right. Lands are good, so people tend to destroy them..
-Coalition Relic - this is busted acceleration/fixer. 2 mana 2 colors? Tnx.
-Perilous Forays - This is good with tokens/Bloodghast, 5 mana is soon in game with Wood Elves and the bunch or ur doing it wrong.
-Planar Cleansing - This is better than Wrath.
-Field of Souls - very good, you just need to work a bit, its the pieces, not bombs.
-Orcal of Mul Day - This plus Crucible/Loam is amazing, i don't know you guys don't play LD?
The cards you listed are good, but do nothing for the said deck (except for Sol Ring, Titan and Demonic Tutor, i would play these too).
First of all, this is NOT just another "BGW good-stuff" deck. Just because a certain card is great in a vacuum doesn't mean it's good enough for me. Instead, my deck tries to focus on as many synergies and interactions as possible. For example, a card like Tooth and Nail is a really good card in most situations, but paying 9 mana to put two creatures of my choice into play is not something I really need, and that spell is not very easy to recur or re-use. Conversely, a card like Farhaven Elf has a lot of positive interactions with the rest of my deck: it ramps and fixes, it's easy to sacrifice to Perilous Forays or Skullclamp, and it's easy to bring right back into play with Reveillark or Sun Titan.
Furthermore, my deck tries to focus on as much re-usability as possible. That means I try to limit the number of one-time spells (instants/sorceries) and replace them with permanents that continuously do the same thing, and can easily be brought back if they get killed off. For example, I run Necrotic Sliver over Vindicate because the Sliver can trigger other cards like Grave Pact and Field of Souls when it eventually dies, and can be brought back by Oversold Cemetery and Genesis.
Finally, two of my favorite "pet cards" are Reveillark and Sun Titan. Other spells that happen to fit underneath these two get additional bonus points from me.
As for your individual choices, I'll try my best to defend them:
- Forest: I always seem to forget about Murmuring Bosk, and it seems like a fine upgrade. Just need to find one...
- Bloodghast: This card is strictly there for sacrifice fodder and easy recursion. I abuse the hell out of Grave Pact as my primary source of removal, but this guy also works very well with all of my other sacrifice outlets and graveyard triggers.
- Knight of the Reliquary: This reusable tutor definitely pulls its weight. I have a fair amount of utility lands, and this card makes sure that I find them. If I need recursion, I go for Volrath's Stronghold. If I need a sac outlet, I have Phyrexian Tower and Miren, the Moaning Well. Plus, it interacts very well with Crucible of Worlds, Sun Titan, and Reveillark.
- Strands of Night: It's instant-speed recursion that goes directly into play. That is a very powerful effect for me.
- Krovikan Horror: I found this relic on Gatherer and I'm glad that I did. He does three very nice things: removal, a sacrifice outlet, and self-resurrects himself.
- Farhaven Elf: Most people run Signets or cards like Rampant Growth for acceleration. This card is a Rampant Growth-effect plus a body that is easy to sacrifice and then reanimate for even more use. A typical cycle of plays with this guy involves casting him on turn three, then sacrificing him to something like Perilous Forays or Skullclamp, then casting Sun Titan and bringing him back again, and repeat.
- Claws of Gix: This card is like an insurance policy. It makes sure that any card in play will get some value if it dies. The fact that I can sacrifice non-creature permanents that might die is even more useful.
- Nim Deathmantle: This card was just recently added, and I haven't had too much time to see how it works, but so far it's been very nice. One of the things I'm trying to do more of lately is find ways to recur other people's threats as well as my own, in order to prevent graveyard hate from affecting me as much. I'm not 100% sure that this card is here to stay, but so far I like it.
- Withered Wretch: This is the perfect graveyard-hater for me. It's size makes it easy to cast and recur, and its ability to remove only the specific cards that I want and leave the other cards where they can still be useful. It also helps that the ability can be activated at instant speed.
- Riftsweeper: I put this in to try and recover from massive graveyard haters because some of my friends were altering their decks to specifically beat me. I'll admit that this guy isn't the most powerful spell in my deck, but his ability is one-of-a-kind.
- Mox Diamond: I just put this in, and haven't had the chance to use it, but I usually don't have problems finding lands, and turn 1 acceleration is hard to come by. Sol Ring would be nice, but my only copy is in another deck that needs it much more than this one does.
- Life from the Loam: I'm actually using this card less and less lately, but it's still good with the Knight, Strands, and all my fetchlands.
- Coalition Relic: It's no more expensive than my creatures that search for lands. I put it in here instead of a Signet, and it's never been a problem.
- Perilous Forays: This card does so many good things for me. The combination of a sac outlet and a continuous source of ramping is excellent. My deck averages about 20-25 lands in play every game, and this is a big reason why.
- Planar Cleansing: This is just better than Wrath. Creatures are incredibly easy to kill, whereas non-creature permanents are not. This is a mistake that most new EDH players often overlook. Furthermore, a lot of my friends run artifact/enchantment based strategies, so it is even more important to be able to kill non-creature permanents. As for the additional cost, it's never been an issue because I ramp so well.
- Field of Souls: This is one of many graveyard triggers that provide additional value whenever I sacrifice something. It helps keep a continuous stream of bodies on the table at my disposal.
- Diabolic Intent: With all the fodder I have lying around (Bloodghast, Farhaven Elf, tokens), this is basically Demonic Tutor #2. It's much better than Diabolic Tutor. I've never had a problem finding a body to sacrifice, and since the sacrifice is part of the cost to cast the spell, they can't respond by killing the guy I want to sacrifice. Plus, I bought a cool European foil one on eBay.
- Oracle of Mul Daya: Umm...really? This card is great by itself, and insane with a Top, or a Crucible and a fetchland. It's a staple green card, not going anywhere.
- Primeval Titan: In as soon as I can come up with the $50 to buy one.
- Sol Ring: See above for why it's not in here. If I find another copy, it'll probably replace Coalition Relic first.
- Damnation, Day of Judgment: Not versatile enough. Mass removal needs to do more than just wipe creatures. Cost is not an obstacle.
- Condemn: A one-shot effect that has no interaction or synergy with anything else in my deck. I might consider Hallowed Burial...at least that card hits ALL the generals. Furthermore, I'd rather kill the general over and over again with Grave Pact triggers.
- Demonic Tutor: It's already there. Diabolic Tutor could replace Beseech the Queen, maybe. If I can get ahold of a Vampiric Tutor, that will certainly go in here.
- Demon of Death's Gate: This card carries an inherent risk of getting yourself blown out. For the same price, white Akroma has no risk of card-disadvantage. Furthermore, I don't really need to rely on big fatties that have no interaction with anything else in the deck.
- Yosei, the Morning Star: Another big fattie that doesn't recur very easily (too big for Reveillark and Sun Titan) and only affects one player at the table.
- Garruk Wildspeaker: Of his three abilities, the untapping part is OK, the token-making is kinda slow (Creakwood Liege and Field of Souls, etc), and the Overrun is not really necessary as my creatures don't live long enough to attack. Overall, kinda meh.
- Lord of Extinction: Vanilla beater that has no abilities whatsoever, not even a little evasion. No thanks.
- Vulturous Zombie: At least this guy flies, but it's still just a vanilla beater with no abilities. If I wanted a vanilla flyer, I'd go with Divinity of Pride.
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant: Great card, but it draws the negative attention of everyone else on the table. It's emblem effect isn't even all that useful...I don't care if my guys die because I can just make more or bring them back.
- Pernicious Deed: Like Primeval Titan and Vampiric Tutor, a great card that I haven't saved the cash to acquire yet.
- Bitterblossom: Cards that have to wait until my upkeep are usually too slow, and I have other token-makers that do a better job.
- Reya Dawnbringer: No way this card survives until my upkeep, no way I'm waiting until then to reanimate something.
- Tooth and Nail: A fine card, but it's pretty tough to cast and to re-use. I have enough tutors already.
Thanks for the reply!
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
I still think that the wraths are needed to kill a token deck.. the few times I've played against a set of token decks, and they just over-ran me as I couldn't sac enough things to get them under control. When you have doubling season, and a few token generators facing you down without a way to destroy DS things get out of control quickly. I think there could be other situations as well, this was just the one which dawned on me.
Good points on the vanilla beater, hadn't thought about them as such until your point. Good to think of things that way.
Thank you for your comments back, it's helped me refine my other decks!
Gaddock Teeg
Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
Braids, Conjurer Adept