I removed the Pain lands to allow for more basics, as well as add in a useful Man land in Inkmoth Nexus, which can also provide an alternate win-condition when equipped with swords or buffed by Elspeth 1.0
Land Tax had been on the chopping block for a while and was pulled out for Sensei's Divining Top as a temporary swap. I'm not sure I'm running enough shuffle effects to totally make the Top worth it, but it's in for now.
Pulled out Braids after playing more and realizing how bad of a late game topdeck she was. If I didn't have her in my opening hand she was often useless later on. She also has the negative of being a creature and being suceptible to Humility. The switch to Land Equilibrum is one that may not stick, but I think the effect is similar to Braids enough to keep a stax effect in, while at the same time hurting my opponents, but not me.
Finally the switch to Sword of Fire and Ice just seemed like a solid upgrade. I was trying to decide between it or Feast and Famine as an addition way to push my tokens through, but between the solid spot removal and card draw, Fire and Ice replaces the somewhat less powerful Sword of Body and Mind for now. I enjoyed Body and Mind a lot for upkeeping smokestack with tokens, or milling into exile, and because of that I could see me adding it back in at some point.
Cards I am currently eyeing as potential cuts include:
-The M10/Innistrad checklands for additional Man lands, such as the ones from Worldwake.
-Devastation Tide / Wrath of God for Hallowed Burial, Death Cloud, or Pox. Devastation Tide and Wrath of God are still really solid, but recently I have found myself wanting my wraths to either tuck or include effects found on Death Cloud and Pox.
I recently updated my Zur Stax list, so I will tell what I replaced. I took a while on what got replaced and what got cut in, so you want to check out my changes. Braids, Cabal Minion is as good as she's ever been.
Your decks tell me a lot about your meta and how much you care about this format.
I'm slowly and steadily building my esper stax list and would like to hear what's your experiences with Sword Of War and Peace?
Sword of War and Peace has quickly turned into my favorite one. When you combine it with effects like Cyclonic Rift, Armageddon your opponents on a full hand, etc the sword becomes a win condition. I would strongly recommend adding it to your list, and would also like to see your list once you finish it, so give me a heads up and I'll check it out then.
I recently updated my Zur Stax list, so I will tell what I replaced. I took a while on what got replaced and what got cut in, so you want to check out my changes. Braids, Cabal Minion is as good as she's ever been.
Your decks tell me a lot about your meta and how much you care about this format.
Sounds good, I'll check out your list soon then. Is your page updated with it yet?
On Braids, I agree with you that she is still very good, and if Land Equilibrium doesn't go as planned (I haven't test it yet), then Braids will definitely go back in. Do you think I should run both, if so, what do you see in my current list that she might could replace?
Overall I am enjoying the list quite a bit, but I still feel like plain Wrath of God might not do enough anymore. If I don't have graveyard removal, the GY decks don't mind the wrath. I still feel like Hallowed Burial may be the way to go here. Or remove Devastation Tide for it? I want to keep a few options open wrath-wise.
Sword of War and Peace has quickly turned into my favorite one. When you combine it with effects like Cyclonic Rift, Armageddon your opponents on a full hand, etc the sword becomes a win condition. I would strongly recommend adding it to your list, and would also like to see your list once you finish it, so give me a heads up and I'll check it out then.
Sounds good, I'll check out your list soon then. Is your page updated with it yet?
On Braids, I agree with you that she is still very good, and if Land Equilibrium doesn't go as planned (I haven't test it yet), then Braids will definitely go back in. Do you think I should run both, if so, what do you see in my current list that she might could replace?
Overall I am enjoying the list quite a bit, but I still feel like plain Wrath of God might not do enough anymore. If I don't have graveyard removal, the GY decks don't mind the wrath. I still feel like Hallowed Burial may be the way to go here. Or remove Devastation Tide for it? I want to keep a few options open wrath-wise.
I haven't updated anything in forever, but I will one of these nights. I made it more "aggressive" by adding back in Braids, Cabal Minion and Desolation Angel. Desolation Angel is good card if you got nothing better to play.
Well, the first issue is how you might be playing Land Equilibrium. Are you playing it as early as you can or immediately before/after an Armageddon?
How I use to play it was in conjunction with Desolation, Smokestack, and Mana Vortex. Play it more to see if it fits your ultimate goal of this deck.
Do not take out Devastation Tide, it will win you games just like Cyclonic Rift + Armageddon.
For sweepers, I currently run Damnation, Terminus, Devastation Tide, Cyclonic Rift...I forgot the rest. (I will edit this post later).
I haven't updated anything in forever, but I will one of these nights. I made it more "aggressive" by adding back in Braids, Cabal Minion and Desolation Angel. Desolation Angel is good card if you got nothing better to play.
Well, the first issue is how you might be playing Land Equilibrium. Are you playing it as early as you can or immediately before/after an Armageddon?
How I use to play it was in conjunction with Desolation, Smokestack, and Mana Vortex. Play it more to see if it fits your ultimate goal of this deck.
Do not take out Devastation Tide, it will win you games just like Cyclonic Rift + Armageddon.
For sweepers, I currently run Damnation, Terminus, Devastation Tide, Cyclonic Rift...I forgot the rest. (I will edit this post later).
I'm curious how the Angel is working for you. Back when this list was just a B/W stax build, she was in the list and was pretty solid sometimes. She can give the deck a boost to finish out the game.
I'll do an update once I've had some experience with Land Equilibrium. I only played two games this past weekend, but didn't see it in either of them. If it doesn't work out, it's back to Braids or Descent into Madness for testing. Descent is slow, but it might not be terrible. Any experience with it?
Pulled out Wrath of God for Hallowed Burial, though Terminus might be the better call with Sensei's Diving Top now in the list so I'll have to see how that change goes. I agree that Devastation Tide can win game, so ultimately kept it in.
EDIT: What do you think of Azorius Keyrune to replace some of my mana rocks or drop a land? I am holding on adding any until I see how the others in Gatecrash are, but do you think they are worth considering?
I removed the Pain lands to allow for more basics, as well as add in a useful Man land in Inkmoth Nexus, which can also provide an alternate win-condition when equipped with swords or buffed by Elspeth 1.0
Land Tax had been on the chopping block for a while and was pulled out for Sensei's Divining Top as a temporary swap. I'm not sure I'm running enough shuffle effects to totally make the Top worth it, but it's in for now.
Pulled out Braids after playing more and realizing how bad of a late game topdeck she was. If I didn't have her in my opening hand she was often useless later on. She also has the negative of being a creature and being suceptible to Humility. The switch to Land Equilibrum is one that may not stick, but I think the effect is similar to Braids enough to keep a stax effect in, while at the same time hurting my opponents, but not me.
Finally the switch to Sword of Fire and Ice just seemed like a solid upgrade. I was trying to decide between it or Feast and Famine as an addition way to push my tokens through, but between the solid spot removal and card draw, Fire and Ice replaces the somewhat less powerful Sword of Body and Mind for now. I enjoyed Body and Mind a lot for upkeeping smokestack with tokens, or milling into exile, and because of that I could see me adding it back in at some point.
Cards I am currently eyeing as potential cuts include:
-The M10/Innistrad checklands for additional Man lands, such as the ones from Worldwake.
-Devastation Tide / Wrath of God for Hallowed Burial, Death Cloud, or Pox. Devastation Tide and Wrath of God are still really solid, but recently I have found myself wanting my wraths to either tuck or include effects found on Death Cloud and Pox.
Inkmoth is a house in my build.
I've kept in sorin since I finally used his second ability and man, it's really strong here. The +1/- or +2/- (if you can get it off twice) really adds up fast, especially with humility out.
If your meta is as creature and tutor heavy as mine, wraths>tuck effects. At least then you can control the yard and RFG trouble some guys. I run A LOT of wraths and it still doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I would say the that most of our meta it would be better to tuck than wrath; since most of the decks are close to creature less. The two that are heavy creature are a Mayael build and my Oakenshield deck. In all honesty it would be better to wrath the Mayael deck, but tuck mine since I would either have to spend more time drawing/tutoring them out rather than using the graveyard. So over all maybe tucking all the decks just to get commanders off the field and utility creatures back into decks would be better overall then wrath unless you count Mayael. I still think that Hallowed Burial is worth it overall. Pull Wrath of God out before anything.
I've kept in sorin since I finally used his second ability and man, it's really strong here. The +1/- or +2/- (if you can get it off twice) really adds up fast, especially with humility out.
If your meta is as creature and tutor heavy as mine, wraths>tuck effects. At least then you can control the yard and RFG trouble some guys. I run A LOT of wraths and it still doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
Haven't gotten to try Inkmoth yet, but I'm thinking it will be great here.
Sorin's emblems have been amazing overall, even just doing 2 with Humility allows for wins. I popped his ultimate off once and it was nice, but mostly I get an emblem or two with a token or so before he's gone. Either way it provides these decks with some offensive boosts.
I know your list is packing a couple more than me, and honestly I like your addition with pox and death cloud. I wouldn't mind working one of them into this list. You bring up a good point on controlling the yard. Currently I am running 4 anti GY cards, so I probably would have at least one out at any given point for wrathing. Maybe I'll run Hallowed Burial and Wrath of God or something.
I would say the that most of our meta it would be better to tuck than wrath; since most of the decks are close to creature less. The two that are heavy creature are a Mayael build and my Oakenshield deck. In all honesty it would be better to wrath the Mayael deck, but tuck mine since I would either have to spend more time drawing/tutoring them out rather than using the graveyard. So over all maybe tucking all the decks just to get commanders off the field and utility creatures back into decks would be better overall then wrath unless you count Mayael. I still think that Hallowed Burial is worth it overall. Pull Wrath of God out before anything.
Our meta still has problems with creatures despite a mild decrease in them over the past two or three months. Combo Ghave still loves his creatures, as well as that Sedris deck that comes in every now and then. Ghave requires just a wrath in general, whereas tucking Sedris is usually more beneficial. I haven't played the stax deck against Mayael, but I would imagine a few early tax effects or land wipes would hold all those fatties in check. A wrath of any kind usually is strong enough to shut down those creature heavy decks, at least for some time.
Added Wrath of God back to the list after some testing. The need for a solid, cheap wrath effect was too great, so back in it goes.
Still testing out Land Equilibrium, but want to work back in Braids, Cabal Minion. Currently eying Kismet or Frozen Aether as potential cuts. Usually they are solid post-land wipe, or providing even more slow down during the early game in conjunction with the tax effects. Anyone have any thoughts on these?
I am disturbed by the lack of Mindlock Orb. I see that you are using tutors in the deck, but wouldn't it be beneficial to slow your opponents even further?
How are the new change going? Tell me about the updates, and I will update my list as well. I might analyzed how each card functions for once. I usually let people learn how the cards function if they want to spend the time (most people on here don't have the patients, not being rude).
I recently added Land Tax to ensure I recover from Back to Basics locks post Armageddon. It's been working great since I am usually not phased when my lands are Stasis'd.
The lastest of my additions are Rings of Brighthearth, and it's literately the best card in the deck, but everyone knows that. It's literately one of the best cards in this format, EDH.
I've had situations where I had no cards, too much mana, and only relevant permanents, Sensei's Diving Top + Rings of Brighthearth in play.
Being able to draw 2 cards for 3 kept me in the game, and this draw engine is colourless which is the best part.
How are the new change going? Tell me about the updates, and I will update my list as well. I might analyzed how each card functions for once. I usually let people learn how the cards function if they want to spend the time (most people on here don't have the patients, not being rude).
I recently added Land Tax to ensure I recover from Back to Basics locks post Armageddon. It's been working great since I am usually not phased when my lands are Stasis'd.
The lastest of my additions are Rings of Brighthearth, and it's literately the best card in the deck, but everyone knows that. It's literately one of the best cards in this format, EDH.
I've had situations where I had no cards, too much mana, and only relevant permanents, Sensei's Diving Top + Rings of Brighthearth in play.
Being able to draw 2 cards for 3 kept me in the game, and this draw engine is colourless which is the best part.
The changes have been great, I never really liked drawing Hallowed Burial, especially when it just seemed to be hitting mostly tokens lately. It wasn't terrible, but the switch back to Wrath of God works better overall, less mana, and still takes care of everything usually. I still run enough GY removal to take care of most recursion.
I think you'll like Land Tax overall, it certainly helps recovering from a land wipe, I just never seemed to get more than one activation from it most of the time unfortunately. Sometimes that one activation is all you need though, I'll admit.
Nice call on adding in the pillowfort effects, I usually get a fair amount of use from them. I initially thought Sphere of Safety would be too expensive, but it really has proven useful.
I'll consider adding in Rings. I've played it before, and if unchecked it completely swings a game in your favor. I see several cards in my list that it could work with.
EDIT: Dust to Dust could be another card to consider removing for Hurkyl's Recall? Dust has been useful, but sorcery speed can be troublesome, plus Recall gets the bonus of being more versatile.
The changes have been great, I never really liked drawing Hallowed Burial, especially when it just seemed to be hitting mostly tokens lately. It wasn't terrible, but the switch back to Wrath of God works better overall, less mana, and still takes care of everything usually. I still run enough GY removal to take care of most recursion.
I think you'll like Land Tax overall, it certainly helps recovering from a land wipe, I just never seemed to get more than one activation from it most of the time unfortunately. Sometimes that one activation is all you need though, I'll admit.
Nice call on adding in the pillowfort effects, I usually get a fair amount of use from them. I initially thought Sphere of Safety would be too expensive, but it really has proven useful.
I'll consider adding in Rings. I've played it before, and if unchecked it completely swings a game in your favor. I see several cards in my list that it could work with.
EDIT: Dust to Dust could be another card to consider removing for Hurkyl's Recall? Dust has been useful, but sorcery speed can be troublesome, plus Recall gets the bonus of being more versatile.
Great call on Hallowed Burial being removed because it’s great in the right deck, but not great against people who can play around tuck spells.
You definitely need one or two Wrath of God spells in your control decks because they still are effective.
The rest of your mass removal is totally your call and meta dependent of course.
On Hurkyl's Recall, it's great, but it just depends who play all the time. I use it more defensive, and only offensively against early Windfall, Wheel of Fortunes, or if I have Trinisphere down.
With Trinisphere in play, it makes their mana rocks really bad and generally it gets discard at the end of their next end-step.
No Mercy seems great! Why did you remove it from your list? It's much better than Braids, Cabal Minion in the late game.
How I see it is if she makes an opponent cast removal spell on her, sweet, card advantage! I got value out of a card that people seem to overvalue in the first place.
I was never a fan of Kismet effects in the first place, but if they work for you, that's great. Each deck should have their own variance even though the bulk of the cards remain the same due to the strategy.
Great call on Hallowed Burial being removed because it’s great in the right deck, but not great against people who can play around tuck spells.
You definitely need one or two Wrath of God spells in your control decks because they still are effective.
The rest of your mass removal is totally your call and meta dependent of course.
On Hurkyl's Recall, it's great, but it just depends who play all the time. I use it more defensive, and only offensively against early Windfall, Wheel of Fortunes, or if I have Trinisphere down.
With Trinisphere in play, it makes their mana rocks really bad and generally it gets discard at the end of their next end-step.
No Mercy seems great! Why did you remove it from your list? It's much better than Braids, Cabal Minion in the late game.
How I see it is if she makes an opponent cast removal spell on her, sweet, card advantage! I got value out of a card that people seem to overvalue in the first place.
I was never a fan of Kismet effects in the first place, but if they work for you, that's great. Each deck should have their own variance even though the bulk of the cards remain the same due to the strategy.
Speaking of another wrath spell, Black Sun's Zenith? I currently run it in my Ghost Council of Orzhova list and it has proven effective against my meta, which still runs a fair amount of tokens + utility creatures. Plus Black Sun can work incredibly well with Humility, which I do seem to aim to play regularly given how useful it is. Also provides us with a semi-recurring wrath spell.
Using Hurkyl's Recall vs cards like Vandalblast just seem so useful, among other cards that can disrupt all the artifacts the list runs. Dust to Dust does fulfill a different role though than Recall, so that probably wouldn't make much sense as a swap.
No Mercy was usually 50/50 on usefulness for me. If I had nothing for the Voltron deck player in our meta, he would just take destroying his creature if it meant lethal damage to knock me out of the game. The GY decks would swing without worry, while those lacking recursion would be deterred. The GY removal the deck runs did help make it better overall. I could see it coming back into the list if Kismet and co. were ever removed, but I'm going to give Braids another chance for now. Like you mentioned, if they waste removal on her, all the better.
I was wondering your thoughts on cards like Gideon Jura and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? I am currently looking into more ways to close out a game. Both of these have the potential to work as another win condition, but I'm not sure. Any thoughts?
Speaking of another wrath spell, Black Sun's Zenith? I currently run it in my Ghost Council of Orzhova list and it has proven effective against my meta, which still runs a fair amount of tokens + utility creatures. Plus Black Sun can work incredibly well with Humility, which I do seem to aim to play regularly given how useful it is. Also provides us with a semi-recurring wrath spell.
Using Hurkyl's Recall vs cards like Vandalblast just seem so useful, among other cards that can disrupt all the artifacts the list runs. Dust to Dust does fulfill a different role though than Recall, so that probably wouldn't make much sense as a swap.
No Mercy was usually 50/50 on usefulness for me. If I had nothing for the Voltron deck player in our meta, he would just take destroying his creature if it meant lethal damage to knock me out of the game. The GY decks would swing without worry, while those lacking recursion would be deterred. The GY removal the deck runs did help make it better overall. I could see it coming back into the list if Kismet and co. were ever removed, but I'm going to give Braids another chance for now. Like you mentioned, if they waste removal on her, all the better.
I was wondering your thoughts on cards like Gideon Jura and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? I am currently looking into more ways to close out a game. Both of these have the potential to work as another win condition, but I'm not sure. Any thoughts?
I didn't like Gideon Jura for the 3/4 months he was in my deck. For some reason, Galspanic and Kraus911(I'm not 100% sure if he used it or not) have great success with it, but I just seem to flop while piloting it.
My opinion of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is unexpected. You think he would earn a guaranteed deck slot just like Tezzeret the Seeker, but how inconsistent it not worth it.
Do the math even with 30% artifacts in your EDH deck the changes are fairly low even though the odds say it's higher than 20%.
The cards I run are just meta calls, and that's all. I'd love to have Vandalblast and Hurkyl's Recall in the same list. That's why Grixis has so well, they get the best tutors, removal, and draw spells, Planeswalkers, enchantments and land destruction spells.
Black Sun's Zenith is great in the right deck, and I totally forgot that it also combos with Humility. Isn't Humility just the best card for control? It fits so many roles and it enables so many bad to become "sub-par".
Let's get real here, Night of Souls' Betrayal is not a great card. It's only devastating against tokens and Norin the Wary hate which consist of none of the playgroups out there.
We all know my love of Craw Wurm, and everyone else. That's why most of the EDH metas are ramp, ramp, ramp into Tooth and Nail or Time Stretch and scoop if my Force of Will and Counterspell(s) gets countered.dec
I didn't like Gideon Jura for the 3/4 months he was in my deck. For some reason, Galspanic and Kraus911(I'm not 100% sure if he used it or not) have great success with it, but I just seem to flop while piloting it.
My opinion of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is unexpected. You think he would earn a guaranteed deck slot just like Tezzeret the Seeker, but how inconsistent it not worth it.
Do the math even with 30% artifacts in your EDH deck the changes are fairly low even though the odds say it's higher than 20%.
We all know my love of Craw Wurm, and everyone else. That's why most of the EDH metas are ramp, ramp, ramp into Tooth and Nail or Time Stretch and scoop if my Force of Will and Counterspell(s) gets countered.dec
How accurate is that generalization?
Interesting to hear on Gideon. I just think he provides a lot of what my deck enjoys or wants. Sending attacks away from me, removing creatures, and of course a 6/6 win condition. However, I have no idea what I would remove for him to test. Tezzeret 2.0 probably would need around 40% to be worth it, but this isn't the deck for that. He does have a useful -1, but overall he probably does need a larger amount of artifacts to be effective.
You're right on Grixis, I tried out just a test list with Gwendlyn Di Corci to see how I liked it. Grixis is like "offensive" stax I feel, much more aggressive board state. It was fun, though I don't think I could commit to another list atm. I actually think trying out RWU would be a nice blend of Esper and Grixis effects, though losing black would be rough. Also, Ruhan of the Fomori really isn't a bad win condition for a stalled out board state. That or try out URG with either Intet or Animar, it doesn't matter, as the general will rarely be used in that case. Stax without access to black or white seems fun to try. Any experience?
I would say that your generalization of EDH metas is fairly accurate, which just makes stax that much better in my opinion. Cards like Humility and tax effects just wreck decks with no sense of what a mana curve is or run no removal. My meta actually adapted and revamped almost every one of the decks to handle the rise in stax-ish decks, which is awesome I think. Some borrowed ideas, while others actually wanted to try out stax for themselves. It also helps to have a playgroup that I've known for a while.
I am disturbed by the lack of Mindlock Orb. I see that you are using tutors in the deck, but wouldn't it be beneficial to slow your opponents even further?
Sorry to be late replying. I use to run Mindlock Orb in one of my old control lists, before I switched to playing stax more. It's a great card if you're abusing draw power. For this list however, I actually like to be able to use one of the three or four tutors for that situation where I need a wrath, stax, or a planeswalker to help the game state. It hoses a lot of decks, and may actually be a meta call depending on how many people are abusing tutors. If your group just draws mostly, or only runs maybe 2-3 tutors a deck, I would say it's a subpar addition. My meta is a mix of draw and tutor, but leans more so on the draw in recent months with a shift away from tutors overall.
Planning on doing a big update for this list within the next few days. I have been in the process of switching generals, adding in Gatecrash cards like Blind Obedience, etc.
Lady Evangela is a solid general, but over the past two months she has underperformed to the point that I do wish to add in a semi-reliable win condition in a stronger general. I won't play Zur, so that leaves a couple options realistically. Esper basically has two flying beatsticks that could function as a win condition. Dromar, the Banisher and Chromium. Dromar obviously has more appeal in his bounce, and I've heard good things about him from Phil on his thread. Chromium isn't really practical, but it is a 7/7 flying, rampaging, chrome dragon lol.
The deck now has the keyrunes as well, at least the Dimir and Azorius ones. They provide a nice win condition on their own with swords, as well as getting around Humility and other effects. Anyways, if anyone has any input on other Esper generals that might work for this list, let me know. Update is coming soon.
I switched to Dromar and it was the best change I could of done for the deck.
Also, grave betrayal has been simply amazing. Give it a test.
It's now my strongest win con if i untap with it. A sweeper will basically win you the game.
Also, run exquisite blood. I would call it close to broken in what our decks are doing. And, if you afford a force field, buy it tomorrow. Just that card alone with academy ruins/trading post back up has kept me alive and soaked up a majority of the usual removal you come across.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Swapping out your general is going to help the deck in a pretty big way IMO. Out of all the times I've played against this deck I don't think I can count on my hand how many times I've seen Lady be able to help you out so switching to Dromar, the Banisher, especially if you hit me with it and return all of my tokens or multicolor permanents as you know that will screw me over pretty good....
I switched to Dromar and it was the best change I could of done for the deck.
Also, grave betrayal has been simply amazing. Give it a test.
It's now my strongest win con if i untap with it. A sweeper will basically win you the game.
Also, run exquisite blood. I would call it close to broken in what our decks are doing. And, if you afford a force field, buy it tomorrow. Just that card alone with academy ruins/trading post back up has kept me alive and soaked up a majority of the usual removal you come across.
Yeah, I switched my list over to Dromar as well. When I read you changed yours it reminded me Dromar even existed lol. I completely forgot him somehow. Being able to wreck red and green's board presence, as well as allow Dromar to dodge sorcery speed removal, seems like a nice ability.
Good call on Grave Betrayal. I actually was considering it for my Glissa stax list (not online yet), but running it here might actually be better. Functions as a win condition and allows for bypassing sweepers like you mentioned. Anything in my current list that looks worth pulling out for Grave Betrayal?
Exquisite Blood is actually in the list currently and I am loving it so far. You're right that in our lists, with the pillowfort effects it just breaks the card. Can't pay to attack me? Cool, I'll gain a little bit of life while you swing into my opponent. Like you mentioned, it draws the removal away from some of the better cards as well since if left untouched, Exquisite Blood will generate you a lot of life over a couple turns.
I would LOVE to have a Forcefield, but am currently unable to get one. I recently traded up towards a Tundra for the list which means it will be some time before I can reliably get the Forcefield for cheap. The card looks perfect for the list, being essentially one of the best pillowfort style cards in magic's whole cardpool. Has your experience with it been worth the price of the card?
A few things I would suggest: Umezawa's Jitte is already amazing, add in Humility and it's just nuts. Along the same lines as Humility, Ixidron does almost the same thing. I know you didn't want to play Zur as the general, but he may be worth a slot in the main deck. You already have 10 cards that he can find, sculpting steel can become Copy Artifact. Animate Dead is good with both him and sun titan. Detention Sphere is good against tokens. Solitary Confinement poops on aggro and combo, and the discard can be avoided with Sun titan. Aven Mindcensor seems better than Mindlock orb since it doesn't affect you and can carry a sword. Lastly to plug one of my favorite cards, True Conviction, it can close out games quickly or bring you back from near death. Most importantly though with humility in play, it makes all your dudes better than theirs.
Yeah, I switched my list over to Dromar as well. When I read you changed yours it reminded me Dromar even existed lol. I completely forgot him somehow. Being able to wreck red and green's board presence, as well as allow Dromar to dodge sorcery speed removal, seems like a nice ability.
Good call on Grave Betrayal. I actually was considering it for my Glissa stax list (not online yet), but running it here might actually be better. Functions as a win condition and allows for bypassing sweepers like you mentioned. Anything in my current list that looks worth pulling out for Grave Betrayal?
Exquisite Blood is actually in the list currently and I am loving it so far. You're right that in our lists, with the pillowfort effects it just breaks the card. Can't pay to attack me? Cool, I'll gain a little bit of life while you swing into my opponent. Like you mentioned, it draws the removal away from some of the better cards as well since if left untouched, Exquisite Blood will generate you a lot of life over a couple turns.
I would LOVE to have a Forcefield, but am currently unable to get one. I recently traded up towards a Tundra for the list which means it will be some time before I can reliably get the Forcefield for cheap. The card looks perfect for the list, being essentially one of the best pillowfort style cards in magic's whole cardpool. Has your experience with it been worth the price of the card?
Deck changes are on the front page.
Force field was totally worth it. It's also an artifact and can easily be recurred with post and ruins if it gets blown up, unlike the enchantments.
It also just straight prevents people's huge things hittin you if you have available mana. People want to do damage, and if they can get in for 7 somewhere else... Guess where they're going to go?
The only time I get smacked with force field out is when the thing hitting me is wearing a sword.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
A few things I would suggest: Umezawa's Jitte is already amazing, add in Humility and it's just nuts. Along the same lines as Humility, Ixidron does almost the same thing. I know you didn't want to play Zur as the general, but he may be worth a slot in the main deck. You already have 10 cards that he can find, sculpting steel can become Copy Artifact. Animate Dead is good with both him and sun titan. Detention Sphere is good against tokens. Solitary Confinement poops on aggro and combo, and the discard can be avoided with Sun titan. Aven Mindcensor seems better than Mindlock orb since it doesn't affect you and can carry a sword. Lastly to plug one of my favorite cards, True Conviction, it can close out games quickly or bring you back from near death. Most importantly though with humility in play, it makes all your dudes better than theirs.
Thanks for the tips. I've considered Detention Sphere vs tokens in my meta, but don't usually want to exile my own type, such as Bitterblossom tokens, which other players in my meta use as well. I have tried Aven Mindcensor, and while it is a super good card, I always felt like it was a little slow and completely lost to Humility. I'm always kind of nervous with adding in a lot of creatures bc of Humility/Torpor Orb effects that I run. Tokens just always work out better overall. True Conviction is an interesting card, the lifegain could be nice, but not sure how much extra the double strike would help a few 1/1's. Umezawa's Jitte is an interesting call, one that I'm actually considering for my Glissa stax list that runs more creatures than this list. I like the potential of it's two abilities, but wonder if it is worth the set up. Do you have any experience with it?
Force field was totally worth it. It's also an artifact and can easily be recurred with post and ruins if it gets blown up, unlike the enchantments.
It also just straight prevents people's huge things hittin you if you have available mana. People want to do damage, and if they can get in for 7 somewhere else... Guess where they're going to go?
The only time I get smacked with force field out is when the thing hitting me is wearing a sword.
That's kinda what I was thinking, complete shut down of opponents swinging into you. I'll look to pick one up in the future. This deck currently has a lot of ways to get artifacts, including just straight up putting Forcefield on the field with Tezzeret the Seeker
-Caves of Koilos, Underground River, Adarkar Wastes, +Inkmoth Nexus, Swamp, Plains
-Braids, Cabal Minion, +Land Equilibrium
-Land Tax, +Sensei's Divining Top
-Sword of Body and Mind, +Sword of Fire and Ice
I removed the Pain lands to allow for more basics, as well as add in a useful Man land in Inkmoth Nexus, which can also provide an alternate win-condition when equipped with swords or buffed by Elspeth 1.0
Land Tax had been on the chopping block for a while and was pulled out for Sensei's Divining Top as a temporary swap. I'm not sure I'm running enough shuffle effects to totally make the Top worth it, but it's in for now.
Pulled out Braids after playing more and realizing how bad of a late game topdeck she was. If I didn't have her in my opening hand she was often useless later on. She also has the negative of being a creature and being suceptible to Humility. The switch to Land Equilibrum is one that may not stick, but I think the effect is similar to Braids enough to keep a stax effect in, while at the same time hurting my opponents, but not me.
Finally the switch to Sword of Fire and Ice just seemed like a solid upgrade. I was trying to decide between it or Feast and Famine as an addition way to push my tokens through, but between the solid spot removal and card draw, Fire and Ice replaces the somewhat less powerful Sword of Body and Mind for now. I enjoyed Body and Mind a lot for upkeeping smokestack with tokens, or milling into exile, and because of that I could see me adding it back in at some point.
Cards I am currently eyeing as potential cuts include:
-The M10/Innistrad checklands for additional Man lands, such as the ones from Worldwake.
-Devastation Tide / Wrath of God for Hallowed Burial, Death Cloud, or Pox. Devastation Tide and Wrath of God are still really solid, but recently I have found myself wanting my wraths to either tuck or include effects found on Death Cloud and Pox.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Your decks tell me a lot about your meta and how much you care about this format.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Sword of War and Peace has quickly turned into my favorite one. When you combine it with effects like Cyclonic Rift, Armageddon your opponents on a full hand, etc the sword becomes a win condition. I would strongly recommend adding it to your list, and would also like to see your list once you finish it, so give me a heads up and I'll check it out then.
Sounds good, I'll check out your list soon then. Is your page updated with it yet?
On Braids, I agree with you that she is still very good, and if Land Equilibrium doesn't go as planned (I haven't test it yet), then Braids will definitely go back in. Do you think I should run both, if so, what do you see in my current list that she might could replace?
Overall I am enjoying the list quite a bit, but I still feel like plain Wrath of God might not do enough anymore. If I don't have graveyard removal, the GY decks don't mind the wrath. I still feel like Hallowed Burial may be the way to go here. Or remove Devastation Tide for it? I want to keep a few options open wrath-wise.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
I haven't updated anything in forever, but I will one of these nights. I made it more "aggressive" by adding back in Braids, Cabal Minion and Desolation Angel. Desolation Angel is good card if you got nothing better to play.
Well, the first issue is how you might be playing Land Equilibrium.
Are you playing it as early as you can or immediately before/after an Armageddon?
How I use to play it was in conjunction with Desolation, Smokestack, and Mana Vortex. Play it more to see if it fits your ultimate goal of this deck.
Do not take out Devastation Tide, it will win you games just like Cyclonic Rift + Armageddon.
For sweepers, I currently run Damnation, Terminus, Devastation Tide, Cyclonic Rift...I forgot the rest. (I will edit this post later).
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
-Drowned Catacomb, +Creeping Tar Pit
-Wrath of God, +Hallowed Burial
I'm curious how the Angel is working for you. Back when this list was just a B/W stax build, she was in the list and was pretty solid sometimes. She can give the deck a boost to finish out the game.
I'll do an update once I've had some experience with Land Equilibrium. I only played two games this past weekend, but didn't see it in either of them. If it doesn't work out, it's back to Braids or Descent into Madness for testing. Descent is slow, but it might not be terrible. Any experience with it?
Pulled out Wrath of God for Hallowed Burial, though Terminus might be the better call with Sensei's Diving Top now in the list so I'll have to see how that change goes. I agree that Devastation Tide can win game, so ultimately kept it in.
EDIT: What do you think of Azorius Keyrune to replace some of my mana rocks or drop a land? I am holding on adding any until I see how the others in Gatecrash are, but do you think they are worth considering?
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Inkmoth is a house in my build.
I've kept in sorin since I finally used his second ability and man, it's really strong here. The +1/- or +2/- (if you can get it off twice) really adds up fast, especially with humility out.
If your meta is as creature and tutor heavy as mine, wraths>tuck effects. At least then you can control the yard and RFG trouble some guys. I run A LOT of wraths and it still doesn't feel like enough sometimes.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Signature made by Rivenor at Miraculous Recovery Signatures
EDH
[Primer] - BRG Adun Oakenshield: Jund Stax/Recycle Bin GRB
BRG Shatterbros Shenanigans GRB
Haven't gotten to try Inkmoth yet, but I'm thinking it will be great here.
Sorin's emblems have been amazing overall, even just doing 2 with Humility allows for wins. I popped his ultimate off once and it was nice, but mostly I get an emblem or two with a token or so before he's gone. Either way it provides these decks with some offensive boosts.
I know your list is packing a couple more than me, and honestly I like your addition with pox and death cloud. I wouldn't mind working one of them into this list. You bring up a good point on controlling the yard. Currently I am running 4 anti GY cards, so I probably would have at least one out at any given point for wrathing. Maybe I'll run Hallowed Burial and Wrath of God or something.
Our meta still has problems with creatures despite a mild decrease in them over the past two or three months. Combo Ghave still loves his creatures, as well as that Sedris deck that comes in every now and then. Ghave requires just a wrath in general, whereas tucking Sedris is usually more beneficial. I haven't played the stax deck against Mayael, but I would imagine a few early tax effects or land wipes would hold all those fatties in check. A wrath of any kind usually is strong enough to shut down those creature heavy decks, at least for some time.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Still testing out Land Equilibrium, but want to work back in Braids, Cabal Minion. Currently eying Kismet or Frozen Aether as potential cuts. Usually they are solid post-land wipe, or providing even more slow down during the early game in conjunction with the tax effects. Anyone have any thoughts on these?
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
I recently added Land Tax to ensure I recover from Back to Basics locks post Armageddon. It's been working great since I am usually not phased when my lands are Stasis'd.
I also removed all of the Hondens' for Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, and Sphere of Safety for more aggro deterrence.
The lastest of my additions are Rings of Brighthearth, and it's literately the best card in the deck, but everyone knows that. It's literately one of the best cards in this format, EDH.
I've had situations where I had no cards, too much mana, and only relevant permanents, Sensei's Diving Top + Rings of Brighthearth in play.
Being able to draw 2 cards for 3 kept me in the game, and this draw engine is colourless which is the best part.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
The changes have been great, I never really liked drawing Hallowed Burial, especially when it just seemed to be hitting mostly tokens lately. It wasn't terrible, but the switch back to Wrath of God works better overall, less mana, and still takes care of everything usually. I still run enough GY removal to take care of most recursion.
I think you'll like Land Tax overall, it certainly helps recovering from a land wipe, I just never seemed to get more than one activation from it most of the time unfortunately. Sometimes that one activation is all you need though, I'll admit.
Nice call on adding in the pillowfort effects, I usually get a fair amount of use from them. I initially thought Sphere of Safety would be too expensive, but it really has proven useful.
I'll consider adding in Rings. I've played it before, and if unchecked it completely swings a game in your favor. I see several cards in my list that it could work with.
After a couple games over the weekend, I made the following change:
-No Mercy, +Braids, Cabal Minion
I am currently trying to work in Hurkyl's Recall before anything. I considered removing Frozen Aether and Kismet, but every time I consider them, they end up being great in slowing down a game. The smaller tax effects such as Sphere of Resistance or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben may be up for consideration. Lodestone Golem is usually helpful, so for now it stays in.
EDIT: Dust to Dust could be another card to consider removing for Hurkyl's Recall? Dust has been useful, but sorcery speed can be troublesome, plus Recall gets the bonus of being more versatile.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Great call on Hallowed Burial being removed because it’s great in the right deck, but not great against people who can play around tuck spells.
You definitely need one or two Wrath of God spells in your control decks because they still are effective.
The rest of your mass removal is totally your call and meta dependent of course.
On Hurkyl's Recall, it's great, but it just depends who play all the time. I use it more defensive, and only offensively against early Windfall, Wheel of Fortunes, or if I have Trinisphere down.
With Trinisphere in play, it makes their mana rocks really bad and generally it gets discard at the end of their next end-step.
No Mercy seems great! Why did you remove it from your list? It's much better than Braids, Cabal Minion in the late game.
How I see it is if she makes an opponent cast removal spell on her, sweet, card advantage! I got value out of a card that people seem to overvalue in the first place.
I was never a fan of Kismet effects in the first place, but if they work for you, that's great. Each deck should have their own variance even though the bulk of the cards remain the same due to the strategy.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Speaking of another wrath spell, Black Sun's Zenith? I currently run it in my Ghost Council of Orzhova list and it has proven effective against my meta, which still runs a fair amount of tokens + utility creatures. Plus Black Sun can work incredibly well with Humility, which I do seem to aim to play regularly given how useful it is. Also provides us with a semi-recurring wrath spell.
Using Hurkyl's Recall vs cards like Vandalblast just seem so useful, among other cards that can disrupt all the artifacts the list runs. Dust to Dust does fulfill a different role though than Recall, so that probably wouldn't make much sense as a swap.
No Mercy was usually 50/50 on usefulness for me. If I had nothing for the Voltron deck player in our meta, he would just take destroying his creature if it meant lethal damage to knock me out of the game. The GY decks would swing without worry, while those lacking recursion would be deterred. The GY removal the deck runs did help make it better overall. I could see it coming back into the list if Kismet and co. were ever removed, but I'm going to give Braids another chance for now. Like you mentioned, if they waste removal on her, all the better.
I was wondering your thoughts on cards like Gideon Jura and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? I am currently looking into more ways to close out a game. Both of these have the potential to work as another win condition, but I'm not sure. Any thoughts?
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
I didn't like Gideon Jura for the 3/4 months he was in my deck. For some reason, Galspanic and Kraus911(I'm not 100% sure if he used it or not) have great success with it, but I just seem to flop while piloting it.
My opinion of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is unexpected. You think he would earn a guaranteed deck slot just like Tezzeret the Seeker, but how inconsistent it not worth it.
Do the math even with 30% artifacts in your EDH deck the changes are fairly low even though the odds say it's higher than 20%.
The cards I run are just meta calls, and that's all. I'd love to have Vandalblast and Hurkyl's Recall in the same list. That's why Grixis has so well, they get the best tutors, removal, and draw spells, Planeswalkers, enchantments and land destruction spells.
Black Sun's Zenith is great in the right deck, and I totally forgot that it also combos with Humility. Isn't Humility just the best card for control? It fits so many roles and it enables so many bad to become "sub-par".
Let's get real here, Night of Souls' Betrayal is not a great card. It's only devastating against tokens and Norin the Wary hate which consist of none of the playgroups out there.
We all know my love of Craw Wurm, and everyone else. That's why most of the EDH metas are ramp, ramp, ramp into Tooth and Nail or Time Stretch and scoop if my Force of Will and Counterspell(s) gets countered.dec
How accurate is that generalization?
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Interesting to hear on Gideon. I just think he provides a lot of what my deck enjoys or wants. Sending attacks away from me, removing creatures, and of course a 6/6 win condition. However, I have no idea what I would remove for him to test. Tezzeret 2.0 probably would need around 40% to be worth it, but this isn't the deck for that. He does have a useful -1, but overall he probably does need a larger amount of artifacts to be effective.
You're right on Grixis, I tried out just a test list with Gwendlyn Di Corci to see how I liked it. Grixis is like "offensive" stax I feel, much more aggressive board state. It was fun, though I don't think I could commit to another list atm. I actually think trying out RWU would be a nice blend of Esper and Grixis effects, though losing black would be rough. Also, Ruhan of the Fomori really isn't a bad win condition for a stalled out board state. That or try out URG with either Intet or Animar, it doesn't matter, as the general will rarely be used in that case. Stax without access to black or white seems fun to try. Any experience?
I would say that your generalization of EDH metas is fairly accurate, which just makes stax that much better in my opinion. Cards like Humility and tax effects just wreck decks with no sense of what a mana curve is or run no removal. My meta actually adapted and revamped almost every one of the decks to handle the rise in stax-ish decks, which is awesome I think. Some borrowed ideas, while others actually wanted to try out stax for themselves. It also helps to have a playgroup that I've known for a while.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Sorry to be late replying. I use to run Mindlock Orb in one of my old control lists, before I switched to playing stax more. It's a great card if you're abusing draw power. For this list however, I actually like to be able to use one of the three or four tutors for that situation where I need a wrath, stax, or a planeswalker to help the game state. It hoses a lot of decks, and may actually be a meta call depending on how many people are abusing tutors. If your group just draws mostly, or only runs maybe 2-3 tutors a deck, I would say it's a subpar addition. My meta is a mix of draw and tutor, but leans more so on the draw in recent months with a shift away from tutors overall.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Lady Evangela is a solid general, but over the past two months she has underperformed to the point that I do wish to add in a semi-reliable win condition in a stronger general. I won't play Zur, so that leaves a couple options realistically. Esper basically has two flying beatsticks that could function as a win condition. Dromar, the Banisher and Chromium. Dromar obviously has more appeal in his bounce, and I've heard good things about him from Phil on his thread. Chromium isn't really practical, but it is a 7/7 flying, rampaging, chrome dragon lol.
The deck now has the keyrunes as well, at least the Dimir and Azorius ones. They provide a nice win condition on their own with swords, as well as getting around Humility and other effects. Anyways, if anyone has any input on other Esper generals that might work for this list, let me know. Update is coming soon.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Also, grave betrayal has been simply amazing. Give it a test.
It's now my strongest win con if i untap with it. A sweeper will basically win you the game.
Also, run exquisite blood. I would call it close to broken in what our decks are doing. And, if you afford a force field, buy it tomorrow. Just that card alone with academy ruins/trading post back up has kept me alive and soaked up a majority of the usual removal you come across.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
[Primer] - Jor Kadeen, Boros Legionnaire
WUBRGSliver Legion, Slynergistic Slivertastic BeatdownWUBRG
Here are some of the EDH decks I have to deal with...
[Primer] WUBDromar, the Banisher Esper StaxWUB
Yeah, I switched my list over to Dromar as well. When I read you changed yours it reminded me Dromar even existed lol. I completely forgot him somehow. Being able to wreck red and green's board presence, as well as allow Dromar to dodge sorcery speed removal, seems like a nice ability.
Good call on Grave Betrayal. I actually was considering it for my Glissa stax list (not online yet), but running it here might actually be better. Functions as a win condition and allows for bypassing sweepers like you mentioned. Anything in my current list that looks worth pulling out for Grave Betrayal?
Exquisite Blood is actually in the list currently and I am loving it so far. You're right that in our lists, with the pillowfort effects it just breaks the card. Can't pay to attack me? Cool, I'll gain a little bit of life while you swing into my opponent. Like you mentioned, it draws the removal away from some of the better cards as well since if left untouched, Exquisite Blood will generate you a lot of life over a couple turns.
I would LOVE to have a Forcefield, but am currently unable to get one. I recently traded up towards a Tundra for the list which means it will be some time before I can reliably get the Forcefield for cheap. The card looks perfect for the list, being essentially one of the best pillowfort style cards in magic's whole cardpool. Has your experience with it been worth the price of the card?
Deck changes are on the front page.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
In search of a foil french Dromar, the Banisher, pm me if you have one you want to part with, also foil Stratadon's.
Force field was totally worth it. It's also an artifact and can easily be recurred with post and ruins if it gets blown up, unlike the enchantments.
It also just straight prevents people's huge things hittin you if you have available mana. People want to do damage, and if they can get in for 7 somewhere else... Guess where they're going to go?
The only time I get smacked with force field out is when the thing hitting me is wearing a sword.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Thanks for the tips. I've considered Detention Sphere vs tokens in my meta, but don't usually want to exile my own type, such as Bitterblossom tokens, which other players in my meta use as well. I have tried Aven Mindcensor, and while it is a super good card, I always felt like it was a little slow and completely lost to Humility. I'm always kind of nervous with adding in a lot of creatures bc of Humility/Torpor Orb effects that I run. Tokens just always work out better overall. True Conviction is an interesting card, the lifegain could be nice, but not sure how much extra the double strike would help a few 1/1's. Umezawa's Jitte is an interesting call, one that I'm actually considering for my Glissa stax list that runs more creatures than this list. I like the potential of it's two abilities, but wonder if it is worth the set up. Do you have any experience with it?
That's kinda what I was thinking, complete shut down of opponents swinging into you. I'll look to pick one up in the future. This deck currently has a lot of ways to get artifacts, including just straight up putting Forcefield on the field with Tezzeret the Seeker
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]