I play a Dromar control deck rather than stax, but our lists have quite a few cards in common most notably humility. Incidentally Humility usually doesn't last long on the field when I play it, it's more of a card that slows everyone down long enough for me to develop board position with artifacts and enchantments until someone blows it up (sometimes it's me) and I can just crush them to death with a double striking Dromar (Two turn clock, or with three jitte counters a one turn clock). My deck is designed to generate small incremental advantage through efficient permanents that can be found with zur and returned with sun titan. The double strike from true conviction means that under humility your 1/1s will beat theirs in combat, which is more helpful for me since my creatures actually do something once humility dies. It also means that you get double sword triggers. I love Jitte, it's cheap to play and equip, it doesn't have to hit a player to get counters, it has three relevant abilities especially under humility and like the swords is better with double strike. It is definitely worth finding a spot for.
With your creatures mostly being tokens/utility dudes Meekstone might be a good inclusion. Crackdown is another option. Lotus Vale might be worth looking at to give you more mana under all the stax effects. World Queller is a more flexible stax effect. Spelltithe Enforcer is the tax man. I was going to suggest Winter Orb but it may not be as good after all the stax effects, "Oh, I can only untap one land, good thing I only have one." and in the same vein Storage Matrix.
I love Jitte, it's cheap to play and equip, it doesn't have to hit a player to get counters, it has three relevant abilities especially under humility and like the swords is better with double strike. It is definitely worth finding a spot for.
With your creatures mostly being tokens/utility dudes Meekstone might be a good inclusion. Crackdown is another option. Lotus Vale might be worth looking at to give you more mana under all the stax effects. World Queller is a more flexible stax effect. Spelltithe Enforcer is the tax man. I was going to suggest Winter Orb but it may not be as good after all the stax effects, "Oh, I can only untap one land, good thing I only have one." and in the same vein Storage Matrix.
Sorry to be late replying. I've been testing out Dromar this week and really like the switch. I think I will add your recommendation of the Jitte to my cards under consideration part and maybe test it out sometime in the future.
I ran Spelltithe Enforcer for a little bit back when this deck was just BW, but whenever I switched to Esper, I needed some room and he ultimately got cut. He's not really bad, but the 5 mana investment for him wasn't worth it over some things, the same goes for World Queller. If this list didn't have access to a lot of Blue's own Stax effects they would probably go back in. Thanks again for the recommendations.
In other news, making the following change after getting in some games this week.
Maybe it was just the timing every match, but I never actually got to use Soltari more than once. Every time he was on the field, he never lasted a rotation, either drawing spot removal, someone else played something to warrant a wrath, etc. He might still be worth playing, but for now I'm just going to run spell based removal to perform a similar role. Also had the problem of him only dealing with Enchantments, which while powerful, I also wanted to remove Artifacts as well.
Maybe it was just the timing every match, but I never actually got to use Soltari more than once. Every time he was on the field, he never lasted a rotation, either drawing spot removal, someone else played something to warrant a wrath, etc. He might still be worth playing, but for now I'm just going to run spell based removal to perform a similar role. Also had the problem of him only dealing with Enchantments, which while powerful, I also wanted to remove Artifacts as well.
Exquisite Blood was just drawing too much attention from the table whenever it was played. Instead of attacking each other, it became an all out attack to attack me to have me not benefit from it. Adding Replenish helps to recur my destroyed enchantments, which overall will help more than Exquisite Blood. I pulled Mystical Tutor in an effort to drop back down the number of tutors, plus adding in Night of Souls' Betrayal gives me some added defense in my meta infested with tokens and utility creatures, with the added bonus of locking out creatures with Humility. Dropping Kismet might be just temporary, but I needed Pendrell Mists back in to combat the times where a couple players in my meta can go infinite tokens, or amass a token army. This helps slow down aggro early game as well.
In other news, Blind Obedience continues to pull it's worth. I initially was unsure of removing Frozen Aether for it, but the Extort mechanic has proven useful at certain points, and while not stopping land, it does help stop aggro like Frozen Aether. Overall, I am enjoying it for the time being, but would still consider working back in Kismet/Frozen Aether at some point. Stoneforge Mystic is on the potential cut list as of now as well, she is solid in that she fetches the swords for win conditions, but she is hosed by Torpor Orb and Humility, both of which I like to see in the course of the game. She could potentially stay if I added an additional Sword possibly, but with the continued abuse of GY's in my meta, her slot may need to go to another GY removal spell/artifact.
No Mercy replaces Braids due to wanting to bring in a greater amount of pillowfort effects, and has been in and out of the deck in the past, but has proven itself over Braids more so. Braids was useful when she landed early, and while she carried a Sword like a champ, she was often terrible late game. Devastation Tide had the problem of resetting my own board state, something that caused me more problems than my opponents often times, even though it had the option to Miracle. I often wished that Devastation Tide was a more traditional creature wipe, so adding Hallowed Burial works great at providing a way to handle the increase in recursion and graveyard based combo strategies of the past few months and is the exact same mana cost as Tide. Ill-Gotten Gains was brought in to give the deck more recursion strageties of it's own, and recurs a lot of the deck that Crucible of Worlds and Replenish were not able to.
ALSO I am currently working on getting this deck into Primer shape, with a huge amount of information being added. The front page is updated with everything new as of today and included roughly 90% card analysis completed, with only about 30% of deck strategy. I hope to get it completed and ready to submit by the end of June. Let me know if anyone sees anything that needs to be changed. Hopefully will have a banner added as well.
EDIT: Card Analysis now includes everything but my utility lands. Also expanded the How to Play Dromar section to include fighting other stax stategies.
EDIT 2: Card Analysis and How to Fight Different Strategies sections now fully completed as of now.
Every time I see that card hit the field I jokingly think "well... we just lost".
@Chiles, Haha. The idea of the man lands win condition section would be funny. It would be incorrect if I didn't state how useful Faerie Conclave has been. When my man lands draw a Mortify something must be up.
@Cryo, you are exactly correct on Trading Post. For a while I could get away with it, but now it has become a removal magnet. You would literally think I just slammed down Humility or something. Trading Post is just that good at digging me out of spots.
Love the banner! Really enjoyed reviewing this primer.
Thanks!
Glad to hear you enjoyed it. Making the primer was a lot of fun. Hopefully it will be helpful to those looking to start playing Esper stax or stax-like strategies.
Congrats on the Primer Status, also do you actually have a Nether Void? I've been looking for one for months lol
Thanks!
Haha yes, I own a Nether Void. Got lucky and found one before the price started spiking last year. Such a great card when trying to lock up a game. They are somewhat harder to find now unfortunately. I know they will never reprint the effect via a creature similar to the Magus cycle, but that would help others be able to enjoy the effect.
In your currently testing thread you mentioned that you have been using Bob and Jace recently. How have those been working? I've noticed that this deck has a tendency to "run out of gas" that is, drop its hand and then goes into "topdeck mode" for several turns. Have you noticed this too? and have those two cards helped?
In your currently testing thread you mentioned that you have been using Bob and Jace recently. How have those been working? I've noticed that this deck has a tendency to "run out of gas" that is, drop its hand and then goes into "topdeck mode" for several turns. Have you noticed this too? and have those two cards helped?
Hey Diadallos,
First, I'll address the current testing of Dark Confidant and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. My testing of these cards started in early June and so far every time I have seen them, I have been impressed. Together with many of the stax cards, or land destruction, Jace will completely take over a game. His free Brainstorms are just as impressive when timed correctly in this deck as they were back in his days in standard. Remember, timing is probably the single most important thing when it comes to aligning when to play planeswalkers beside your pillowfort and stax effects. Bob has been pretty incredible as well, carrying Swords well and together with Sensei's Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor, you can essentially negate the life loss. Even without top deck manipulation, the deck's mana curve keeps the life loss at a reasonable amount.
In regards to your comment on the deck "running out of gas", I have not really encountered this in my experience with the deck. Usually I do not aim to drop everything in my hand, even if I have the mana for it, in that I have to bait and play around my meta's increasing amount of removal. Of course there are times when a "hot hand" may come across and it may be tempting to rush a lock, but usually patience is the key with the deck. Play tempo with your opponents, and if you see a moment where you have enough land to play everything mana curve-wise, stop dropping lands. Trust me, if your meta packs any land hate, or if you have any land wipes in hand, just preserve certain resources. I will reiterate that timing is the key to figuring out when to play certain cards, remember to read everything your opponents are doing. In my meta, I play with a couple regulars, so I know what signs to look for, but just pay attention to your opponents and time your effects around them. Between all the different draw engines, I rarely have ever been in top-deck mode, so perhaps it is just differences in play style? Either way, I hope this helps clear some things up for you. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!
I think you're right on all accounts. Perhaps I've been stretching myself thin trying to answer everything the table throws out. Sometimes I find I just don't have the right combination of pillowfort/stax to combat every game plan.
My meta is pretty well developed and competitive. Stupidity such as two players ramping into Consecrated Sphinx and then copying it is normal. Some of the worst offenders include:
--Rafiq of the Many (a very greedy Ramp/ETB/Draw/Answers)
--Kaalia of the Vast (Manarocks into rapid deployment of Kaalia, then tutors for scary things to cheat in such as Master of Cruelties
--Animar Soul of Elements Ramp into big creatures and clone them for value.
--Oona Queen of the Fae basically monoblue Mana doubling with counterspells. The deck usually kills by playing and copying a bunch of Caged Suns or Extraplanar Lens and then milling with Oona, while protecting it's board with counters.
--Omnath, Locus of Mana Elves/Voltron. You would think this deck simply dies to our control spells, but it can rebuild quite rapidly, especially if it can regenerate Omnath or make him indestructible with Darksteel Plate or Asceticism. It also packs mass enchantment removal such as Harmonic Convergence (a bad day for us)
Granted, Humility and Torpor Orb have given them fits many times, but there are games where they get removed or milled away. What are some of the worst situations you've encountered, and how have you adapted? I realize we can't always win, but this deck does put up a great fight!
I'll also throw out a few card considerations or revisit a few things I've been testing to see what you think: Oblation I'm currently testing this in the Vindicate spot because I feel like it's a bit more versatile. I like that it can function defensively as a tuck, as well as proactively by recycling one of our artifacts or enchantments that may be irrelevant to a particular game state, or are about to be destroyed by removal.
Gideon Champion of Justice I want to find a spot for him, perhaps in the No Mercy slot. While I believe in the power of No Mercy, I have also found that the creature assaults I take on can be overwhelming enough to kill me in one shot (Craterhoof Behemoth, Eldrazi conscriptioned Rafiq, etc. We have the tools to protect him, and his -15 ability seems like it'd be the realization of all of this deck's plans rolled into one, especially if we can float a bunch of mana before we activate it.
Bojuka Bog is in one of the Swamp slots for a bit of extra GY hate. Ill Gotten Gains has been an all-star, and it's such a blowout to kill someone's GY before playing it.
Idyllic Tutor Since adding Bojuka Bog, perhaps taking out one piece of artifact GY hate such as Tormod's Crypt, or the Spellbomb for an extra tutor for Humility would be useful, and not too detrimental to the mana curve. I suppose one could argue that it might be more helpful than Lim Dul's vault or Vampiric Tutor if you don't have an endstep to set them up, or don't want to use a drawstep on them.
I think you're right on all accounts. Perhaps I've been stretching myself thin trying to answer everything the table throws out. Sometimes I find I just don't have the right combination of pillowfort/stax to combat every game plan.
My meta is pretty well developed and competitive. Stupidity such as two players ramping into Consecrated Sphinx and then copying it is normal. Some of the worst offenders include:
--Rafiq of the Many (a very greedy Ramp/ETB/Draw/Answers)
--Kaalia of the Vast (Manarocks into rapid deployment of Kaalia, then tutors for scary things to cheat in such as Master of Cruelties
--Animar Soul of Elements Ramp into big creatures and clone them for value.
--Oona Queen of the Fae basically monoblue Mana doubling with counterspells. The deck usually kills by playing and copying a bunch of Caged Suns or Extraplanar Lens and then milling with Oona, while protecting it's board with counters.
--Omnath, Locus of Mana Elves/Voltron. You would think this deck simply dies to our control spells, but it can rebuild quite rapidly, especially if it can regenerate Omnath or make him indestructible with Darksteel Plate or Asceticism. It also packs mass enchantment removal such as Harmonic Convergence (a bad day for us)
Granted, Humility and Torpor Orb have given them fits many times, but there are games where they get removed or milled away. What are some of the worst situations you've encountered, and how have you adapted? I realize we can't always win, but this deck does put up a great fight!
I'll also throw out a few card considerations or revisit a few things I've been testing to see what you think: Oblation I'm currently testing this in the Vindicate spot because I feel like it's a bit more versatile. I like that it can function defensively as a tuck, as well as proactively by recycling one of our artifacts or enchantments that may be irrelevant to a particular game state, or are about to be destroyed by removal.
Gideon Champion of Justice I want to find a spot for him, perhaps in the No Mercy slot. While I believe in the power of No Mercy, I have also found that the creature assaults I take on can be overwhelming enough to kill me in one shot (Craterhoof Behemoth, Eldrazi conscriptioned Rafiq, etc. We have the tools to protect him, and his -15 ability seems like it'd be the realization of all of this deck's plans rolled into one, especially if we can float a bunch of mana before we activate it.
Bojuka Bog is in one of the Swamp slots for a bit of extra GY hate. Ill Gotten Gains has been an all-star, and it's such a blowout to kill someone's GY before playing it.
Idyllic Tutor Since adding Bojuka Bog, perhaps taking out one piece of artifact GY hate such as Tormod's Crypt, or the Spellbomb for an extra tutor for Humility would be useful, and not too detrimental to the mana curve. I suppose one could argue that it might be more helpful than Lim Dul's vault or Vampiric Tutor if you don't have an endstep to set them up, or don't want to use a drawstep on them.
Thanks again for hearing me out,
-Dia
Speaking from StyxofTolaria's meta and reading your meta's archetypes, here's a suggestion. This deck has played against a lot of the issues you mentioned, huge ones being ramp ramp ramp fatty fatty fatty and ETB effects going bonkers. When decks are going haywire, I always see Torpor Orb, any land destruction, or Humility doing unlimited work. Usually having to battle against this, I can say that a few cards like those can shut an aggro(which seems to be what you face a lot) deck down which gives you time to perform a lockout. Just some food for thought. Are there any pillowfort cards or cards your running to make targeting you harder? I see your humility and orb get targeted so I was just wondering.
Hey again, thank you for the reply!
I think you're right on all accounts. Perhaps I've been stretching myself thin trying to answer everything the table throws out. Sometimes I find I just don't have the right combination of pillowfort/stax to combat every game plan.
My meta is pretty well developed and competitive. Stupidity such as two players ramping into Consecrated Sphinx and then copying it is normal. Some of the worst offenders include:
--Rafiq of the Many (a very greedy Ramp/ETB/Draw/Answers)
--Kaalia of the Vast (Manarocks into rapid deployment of Kaalia, then tutors for scary things to cheat in such as Master of Cruelties
--Animar Soul of Elements Ramp into big creatures and clone them for value.
--Oona Queen of the Fae basically monoblue Mana doubling with counterspells. The deck usually kills by playing and copying a bunch of Caged Suns or Extraplanar Lens and then milling with Oona, while protecting it's board with counters.
--Omnath, Locus of Mana Elves/Voltron. You would think this deck simply dies to our control spells, but it can rebuild quite rapidly, especially if it can regenerate Omnath or make him indestructible with Darksteel Plate or Asceticism. It also packs mass enchantment removal such as Harmonic Convergence (a bad day for us)
Granted, Humility and Torpor Orb have given them fits many times, but there are games where they get removed or milled away. What are some of the worst situations you've encountered, and how have you adapted? I realize we can't always win, but this deck does put up a great fight!
Judging by your meta description, I would agree with you that Humility and Torpor Orb are all-stars however, as you mentioned, these are extremely prone to removal. As such, I would strongly recommend running Replenish if you are not running it currently. It does not protect against exile effects unfortunately, but it is extremely useful vs most of the removal thrown around. I am not currently running it, but Greater Auramancy may be something to consider for you, it would allow you to have it eat some of the removal before letting your opponents get to your other stuff. Another option, depending on how different your deck is from mine, is In the Eye of Chaos. I've considered it for even my deck, but I feel it may hose myself more than some decks in my meta however, in your meta you may find it great at helping provide further protection for some of your permanents.
If I had to guess, I would wager that your Animar and Oona decks enjoy casting multiple spells per turn, correct? If so, you may consider bringing in Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory, or Curse of Exhaustion. Have you considered any of these before? Back when I saw more spell based combo, rather than creature based (Ghave is the main culprit in my meta currently), I considered Rule of Law and Arcane Laboratory.
Kaalia should be a main priority for your entire table if they see her being cast, which may help alivate some of your need to handle the table. I will draw upon my experience fighting fast, voltron decks like Uril and Jor Kadeen in saying that Aura of Silence will slow down their fast mana rock deployment, but will also bring up Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, which can hold down a Kaalia pretty well. If you feel the need, again depending on your list, you could bring in another wrath effect. Against Kaalia, running Terminus alongside Hallowed Burial could be pretty useful. It sounds like a lot of your meta's decks are very general-specific, so employing tuck spells should help more. I agree with your consideration of Oblation over even Vindicate in this case. You could even potentially remove Smokestack if it is too slow for your meta, and replace it with either Oblation or Terminus, which would allow you to hold off some of those general-specific decks.
I'll also throw out a few card considerations or revisit a few things I've been testing to see what you think: Oblation I'm currently testing this in the Vindicate spot because I feel like it's a bit more versatile. I like that it can function defensively as a tuck, as well as proactively by recycling one of our artifacts or enchantments that may be irrelevant to a particular game state, or are about to be destroyed by removal.
I touched on this earlier with Kaalia and your meta, but I think it sounds like a solid trade for your meta especially, and I may even consider it for mine. I personally have found Vindicate too useful to pull, but would consider pulling out possibly Path to Exile for Oblation. Path is one of the best spot removal spells ever printed, but hear me out for a second. The problem sometimes with Path is providing that land for our opponents. Giving my opponents resources goes completely against what this deck wants to be doing. Oblation provides two cards, but what good are those when they are struggling to cast spells against Nether Void or after a land wipe? If you try it out, let me know how it goes for your meta. I think tucking your opponents generals seems like a solid call, given how much they are relying on them to win.
Gideon Champion of Justice I want to find a spot for him, perhaps in the No Mercy slot. While I believe in the power of No Mercy, I have also found that the creature assaults I take on can be overwhelming enough to kill me in one shot (Craterhoof Behemoth, Eldrazi conscriptioned Rafiq, etc. We have the tools to protect him, and his -15 ability seems like it'd be the realization of all of this deck's plans rolled into one, especially if we can float a bunch of mana before we activate it.
I've wanted to test Gideon, Champion of Justice in this deck, as well as Gideon Jura, but have not as of yet. If you feel No Mercy has been less successful for you, and it has for me sometimes given the changes in the meta, then perhaps running either one of the two Gideons would be a good call. I personally like Gideon Jura a little more than the newer one for the following reasons: 1. Gideon provides pillowfort, and draws fire away from you and your other planeswalkers. 2. Gideon provides solid removal against aggro players who love to tap out and swing. This removal works well with Tamiyo and Gideon's first ability as well. 3, Gideon provides a win condition as a 6/6 beatstick that can survive board wipes and many other forms of removal. Gideon 2.0 is still solid, and in your meta he could probably reach 15 loyalty fast, but protecting him would require some careful planning, plus a fairly high Sphere of Safety if there are that many creatures on the field at any one time. If you do test either of them, let me know, as that -15 ability is extremely tempting, just not sure if 2.0 is necessarily better than the first Gideon.
Bojuka Bog is in one of the Swamp slots for a bit of extra GY hate. Ill Gotten Gains has been an all-star, and it's such a blowout to kill someone's GY before playing it.
Bojuka Bog is a great card, and I can see swapping a Swamp out for it being a good call. You are completely right that Ill-Gotten Gains has been insanely useful, and adding more graveyard hate would make it even better. I'll probably test this out and see if the CITP tapped trigger is okay for the effect.
Idyllic Tutor Since adding Bojuka Bog, perhaps taking out one piece of artifact GY hate such as Tormod's Crypt, or the Spellbomb for an extra tutor for Humility would be useful, and not too detrimental to the mana curve. I suppose one could argue that it might be more helpful than Lim Dul's vault or Vampiric Tutor if you don't have an endstep to set them up, or don't want to use a drawstep on them.
I could see Idyllic Tutor replacing Lim-Dûl's Vault since the Vault can sometimes be less than useful without Sensei's Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor in play. While it has proven itself useful in the past, I can see where you are coming from in needing a card right away. I personally see enough recursion to still warrant keeping in Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb, but your meta's description did not list too much recursion, so I think pulling the Crypt might not be a bad call there. Nihil at least replaces itself, plus I'm of the opinion all decks need at least 2-3 graveyard removal options in the deck for potential opponents attempting to get the best of our stax effects via Crucible of Worlds, etc.
I hope all of this helps you out, and if you feel like it, you can post your decklist here and that might help with further tweaking.
As you can see, we agree on much of the build. Differences (If I didn't put an explanation by a card its because it's already been discussed above.)
Spells:
-Tormod's Crypt
-No Mercy
-Path to Exile I think this was one of my original cuts. While I love the card it seemed off-plan by ramping the opponent.
-Supreme Verdict (or Wrath of God, I haven't fully committed to which one I'm taking out yet.)
+Idyllic Tutor
+Oblation
+Merciless Eviction I think you mentioned that you're testing this. I love it in my meta because people go nuts with Caged Sun Gauntlet of Power Sculpting Steel+Copy Arttifact
+Rule of Law This was something I was considering as well. I'm going to start by testing the white version, and see if I need the redundancy that Arcane Lab and the curse might offer.
These changes are +6mana on the overall mana curve. I did however add +2 land as I'll explain below. These changes bring the mana curve from 2.98 (your list) to 3.08 (my list). I think that's fairly acceptable, as our deck doesn't really need to have an exceptionally fast start.
Land: FYI: In your list your land count is only 35! (This drove me nuts for about a half hour thinking I was 1 card over! Thx Deckstats!)
-Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth (I forgot to tell you about the other Stax Player in our meta: Mangara of Corondor that goes even deeper into white's pillowfort suite and eventually sets up a kill with Urborg+ Karma/Stern Judge. It's pretty hilarious actually... That said, I don't want to feed him by playing one of his combo pieces
-2x Island
+Underground Sea I understand why this and the delta might not be in. I have seen the prices for these two cards lately. Luckily, as a dealer I have ready access to a lot of deals
+Polluted Delta
+Arid Mesa Just another white fetch.
+Bojuka Bog and I didn't have to cut a swamp after all
+Kor Haven (I like this as a backup Maze of Ith, and it taps for mana. I don't actually count Maze as a "land" because it doesn't produce mana. I do realize that Urborg solves this, but for the reasons mentioned above, no Urborg
Overburden is also quite attractive to me as well. Not sure which slot it goes in. Perhaps in one of the two slots dedicated to Desolation/Mana Vortex? How often do you find yourself wanting to stack these two effects or re-use them each game? Since adding an extra enchantment tutor, I think I'd be willing to drop one of these(most likely Vortex as, to me, it's not as raw-powerful as Desolation, even though I have an awesome signed copy )
Kjeldoran Outpost: As an additional token producer in a Plains slot. I have 12 effective Plains in the deck so this shouldn't be too much of an issue. One of my favorite old-school cards!
Reins of Power in one of the sweeper slots. Amazing instant-speed surprise factor, as well as a potential win-con. Although Wrath of God is almost too classic and iconic to take out, the new rules that take effect this month will add benefits to cards that tuck, exile, bounce, or switch control. I've already seen a resurgence in my meta of generals like Uril the Miststalker, Sigarda Host of Herons, Lazav Dimir Mastermind, and Thrun, the Last Troll. and ways that people make them indestructible such as darksteel plate, Auras, etc...
My list:
As you can see, we agree on much of the build. Differences (If I didn't put an explanation by a card its because it's already been discussed above.)
Spells:
-Tormod's Crypt
-No Mercy
-Path to Exile I think this was one of my original cuts. While I love the card it seemed off-plan by ramping the opponent.
-Supreme Verdict (or Wrath of God, I haven't fully committed to which one I'm taking out yet.)
+Idyllic Tutor
+Oblation
+Merciless Eviction I think you mentioned that you're testing this. I love it in my meta because people go nuts with Caged Sun Gauntlet of Power Sculpting Steel+Copy Arttifact
+Rule of Law This was something I was considering as well. I'm going to start by testing the white version, and see if I need the redundancy that Arcane Lab and the curse might offer.
Let me know how Rule of Law goes, I am still interested in testing it out. I like most of your changes, mostly eying Oblation in the Path to Exile slot. I'll need to hang onto Tormod's Crypt, but I can see it not being as useful depending on the amount of recursion. So far in testing, Merciless Eviction has been incredible, easily worth the extra mana for the exile clause.
Land: FYI: In your list your land count is only 35! (This drove me nuts for about a half hour thinking I was 1 card over! Thx Deckstats!)
-Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth (I forgot to tell you about the other Stax Player in our meta: Mangara of Corondor that goes even deeper into white's pillowfort suite and eventually sets up a kill with Urborg+ Karma/Stern Judge. It's pretty hilarious actually... That said, I don't want to feed him by playing one of his combo pieces
-2x Island
+Underground Sea I understand why this and the delta might not be in. I have seen the prices for these two cards lately. Luckily, as a dealer I have ready access to a lot of deals
+Polluted Delta
+Arid Mesa Just another white fetch.
+Bojuka Bog and I didn't have to cut a swamp after all
+Kor Haven (I like this as a backup Maze of Ith, and it taps for mana. I don't actually count Maze as a "land" because it doesn't produce mana. I do realize that Urborg solves this, but for the reasons mentioned above, no Urborg
So I checked and actually what the problem was that Kor Haven was not in the main decklist, and was only under the Decklist by Function. Fixed! Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Anyways, I like the calls overall. Really wish I was able to acquire an Underground Sea and Polluted Delta atm, but they will have to wait for now. Arid Mesa and off-color fetches are nice, I am not a huge fan from a Vorthos perspective, but if you have them and need them, they can be great.
Overburden is also quite attractive to me as well. Not sure which slot it goes in. Perhaps in one of the two slots dedicated to Desolation/Mana Vortex? How often do you find yourself wanting to stack these two effects or re-use them each game? Since adding an extra enchantment tutor, I think I'd be willing to drop one of these(most likely Vortex as, to me, it's not as raw-powerful as Desolation, even though I have an awesome signed copy )
I find that Mana Vortex is the more powerful between the two cards. Desolation has it's uses however, especially vs "draw go" players. Overburden looks solid on paper, but I tested it at one point and wasn't overly impressed. It's not bad by any means, but not triggering off tokens really hurts it in my meta. That said, you could consider it in Desolation or Mana Vortex's place if you felt one or the other has not performed well for you.
Kjeldoran Outpost: As an additional token producer in a Plains slot. I have 12 effective Plains in the deck so this shouldn't be too much of an issue. One of my favorite old-school cards!
I really like this card as well. I use to run it back when the deck was RWB and loved it, along with Kher Keep. I haven't found myself leaning on this card as much whenever I switched to running some of the manlands however, it is still a solid card on it's own. Provides stax upkeep, Sword carriers, etc.
Reins of Power in one of the sweeper slots. Amazing instant-speed surprise factor, as well as a potential win-con. Although Wrath of God is almost too classic and iconic to take out, the new rules that take effect this month will add benefits to cards that tuck, exile, bounce, or switch control. I've already seen a resurgence in my meta of generals like Uril the Miststalker, Sigarda Host of Herons, Lazav Dimir Mastermind, and Thrun, the Last Troll. and ways that people make them indestructible such as darksteel plate, Auras, etc...
I would consider adding in Hallowed Burial in place of one of the more traditional wrath effects then. If need be, there is also Terminus, which works incredibly well with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Sensei's Divining Top. Reins of Power is an interesting call, I've never actually considered it for this deck before, but I can see the potential applications and would be interested in hearing your testing of the card if you choose to.
Agreed on Collective Restraint. It can backfire horribly with the deck's interactions with land destruction.
BTW, any thoughts on Scroll Rack? Would work well with potentially adding Terminus, and works well with our shuffle effects, especially increasing the number of fetch lands, etc.
I'll update the change log, decklists, etc hopefully over this week with my changes since May and will review M14 for this deck as well.
With your creatures mostly being tokens/utility dudes Meekstone might be a good inclusion. Crackdown is another option. Lotus Vale might be worth looking at to give you more mana under all the stax effects. World Queller is a more flexible stax effect. Spelltithe Enforcer is the tax man. I was going to suggest Winter Orb but it may not be as good after all the stax effects, "Oh, I can only untap one land, good thing I only have one." and in the same vein Storage Matrix.
That's all I've got for now.
In search of a foil french Dromar, the Banisher, pm me if you have one you want to part with, also foil Stratadon's.
Sorry to be late replying. I've been testing out Dromar this week and really like the switch. I think I will add your recommendation of the Jitte to my cards under consideration part and maybe test it out sometime in the future.
I ran Spelltithe Enforcer for a little bit back when this deck was just BW, but whenever I switched to Esper, I needed some room and he ultimately got cut. He's not really bad, but the 5 mana investment for him wasn't worth it over some things, the same goes for World Queller. If this list didn't have access to a lot of Blue's own Stax effects they would probably go back in. Thanks again for the recommendations.
In other news, making the following change after getting in some games this week.
-Soltari Visionary, +Disenchant
Maybe it was just the timing every match, but I never actually got to use Soltari more than once. Every time he was on the field, he never lasted a rotation, either drawing spot removal, someone else played something to warrant a wrath, etc. He might still be worth playing, but for now I'm just going to run spell based removal to perform a similar role. Also had the problem of him only dealing with Enchantments, which while powerful, I also wanted to remove Artifacts as well.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Would Seal of Cleansing be an appropriate alternative to Disenchant? I've always like the fact that it can be brought back with Sun Titan much like Aura of Silence.
stuff
Hmmm, I like the choice of Seal of Cleansing. Nice call Bismuth. Seal has a lot of interaction with Serra's Sanctum, Sphere of Safety, etc. I think I will actually try and test it where Disenchant is currently.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
-Kismet, +Pendrell Mists
-Mystical Tutor, +Night of Souls' Betrayal
-Exquisite Blood, +Replenish
Exquisite Blood was just drawing too much attention from the table whenever it was played. Instead of attacking each other, it became an all out attack to attack me to have me not benefit from it. Adding Replenish helps to recur my destroyed enchantments, which overall will help more than Exquisite Blood. I pulled Mystical Tutor in an effort to drop back down the number of tutors, plus adding in Night of Souls' Betrayal gives me some added defense in my meta infested with tokens and utility creatures, with the added bonus of locking out creatures with Humility. Dropping Kismet might be just temporary, but I needed Pendrell Mists back in to combat the times where a couple players in my meta can go infinite tokens, or amass a token army. This helps slow down aggro early game as well.
In other news, Blind Obedience continues to pull it's worth. I initially was unsure of removing Frozen Aether for it, but the Extort mechanic has proven useful at certain points, and while not stopping land, it does help stop aggro like Frozen Aether. Overall, I am enjoying it for the time being, but would still consider working back in Kismet/Frozen Aether at some point. Stoneforge Mystic is on the potential cut list as of now as well, she is solid in that she fetches the swords for win conditions, but she is hosed by Torpor Orb and Humility, both of which I like to see in the course of the game. She could potentially stay if I added an additional Sword possibly, but with the continued abuse of GY's in my meta, her slot may need to go to another GY removal spell/artifact.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
-Jace, Architect of Thought, +Ill-Gotten Gains
-Braids, Cabal Minion, +No Mercy
-Devastation Tide, +Hallowed Burial
No Mercy replaces Braids due to wanting to bring in a greater amount of pillowfort effects, and has been in and out of the deck in the past, but has proven itself over Braids more so. Braids was useful when she landed early, and while she carried a Sword like a champ, she was often terrible late game. Devastation Tide had the problem of resetting my own board state, something that caused me more problems than my opponents often times, even though it had the option to Miracle. I often wished that Devastation Tide was a more traditional creature wipe, so adding Hallowed Burial works great at providing a way to handle the increase in recursion and graveyard based combo strategies of the past few months and is the exact same mana cost as Tide. Ill-Gotten Gains was brought in to give the deck more recursion strageties of it's own, and recurs a lot of the deck that Crucible of Worlds and Replenish were not able to.
ALSO I am currently working on getting this deck into Primer shape, with a huge amount of information being added. The front page is updated with everything new as of today and included roughly 90% card analysis completed, with only about 30% of deck strategy. I hope to get it completed and ready to submit by the end of June. Let me know if anyone sees anything that needs to be changed. Hopefully will have a banner added as well.
EDIT: Card Analysis now includes everything but my utility lands. Also expanded the How to Play Dromar section to include fighting other stax stategies.
EDIT 2: Card Analysis and How to Fight Different Strategies sections now fully completed as of now.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
[Primer] - Jor Kadeen, Boros Legionnaire
WUBRGSliver Legion, Slynergistic Slivertastic BeatdownWUBRG
Here are some of the EDH decks I have to deal with...
[Primer] WUBDromar, the Banisher Esper StaxWUB
Don't forget Trading Post. No self-respecting stax deck can win without making goat tokens.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Every time I see that card hit the field I jokingly think "well... we just lost".
[Primer] - Jor Kadeen, Boros Legionnaire
WUBRGSliver Legion, Slynergistic Slivertastic BeatdownWUBRG
Here are some of the EDH decks I have to deal with...
[Primer] WUBDromar, the Banisher Esper StaxWUB
@Chiles, Haha. The idea of the man lands win condition section would be funny. It would be incorrect if I didn't state how useful Faerie Conclave has been. When my man lands draw a Mortify something must be up.
@Cryo, you are exactly correct on Trading Post. For a while I could get away with it, but now it has become a removal magnet. You would literally think I just slammed down Humility or something. Trading Post is just that good at digging me out of spots.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
My banner should be completed within a few days and I will be adding that to the deck as well.
Thanks to everyone who helped!
EDIT: Banner added!
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
[Primer] - Jor Kadeen, Boros Legionnaire
WUBRGSliver Legion, Slynergistic Slivertastic BeatdownWUBRG
Here are some of the EDH decks I have to deal with...
[Primer] WUBDromar, the Banisher Esper StaxWUB
Love the banner! Really enjoyed reviewing this primer.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Thanks man!
Thanks!
Glad to hear you enjoyed it. Making the primer was a lot of fun. Hopefully it will be helpful to those looking to start playing Esper stax or stax-like strategies.
Thanks!
Haha yes, I own a Nether Void. Got lucky and found one before the price started spiking last year. Such a great card when trying to lock up a game. They are somewhat harder to find now unfortunately. I know they will never reprint the effect via a creature similar to the Magus cycle, but that would help others be able to enjoy the effect.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
In your currently testing thread you mentioned that you have been using Bob and Jace recently. How have those been working? I've noticed that this deck has a tendency to "run out of gas" that is, drop its hand and then goes into "topdeck mode" for several turns. Have you noticed this too? and have those two cards helped?
Hey Diadallos,
First, I'll address the current testing of Dark Confidant and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. My testing of these cards started in early June and so far every time I have seen them, I have been impressed. Together with many of the stax cards, or land destruction, Jace will completely take over a game. His free Brainstorms are just as impressive when timed correctly in this deck as they were back in his days in standard. Remember, timing is probably the single most important thing when it comes to aligning when to play planeswalkers beside your pillowfort and stax effects. Bob has been pretty incredible as well, carrying Swords well and together with Sensei's Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor, you can essentially negate the life loss. Even without top deck manipulation, the deck's mana curve keeps the life loss at a reasonable amount.
In regards to your comment on the deck "running out of gas", I have not really encountered this in my experience with the deck. Usually I do not aim to drop everything in my hand, even if I have the mana for it, in that I have to bait and play around my meta's increasing amount of removal. Of course there are times when a "hot hand" may come across and it may be tempting to rush a lock, but usually patience is the key with the deck. Play tempo with your opponents, and if you see a moment where you have enough land to play everything mana curve-wise, stop dropping lands. Trust me, if your meta packs any land hate, or if you have any land wipes in hand, just preserve certain resources. I will reiterate that timing is the key to figuring out when to play certain cards, remember to read everything your opponents are doing. In my meta, I play with a couple regulars, so I know what signs to look for, but just pay attention to your opponents and time your effects around them. Between all the different draw engines, I rarely have ever been in top-deck mode, so perhaps it is just differences in play style? Either way, I hope this helps clear some things up for you. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
I think you're right on all accounts. Perhaps I've been stretching myself thin trying to answer everything the table throws out. Sometimes I find I just don't have the right combination of pillowfort/stax to combat every game plan.
My meta is pretty well developed and competitive. Stupidity such as two players ramping into Consecrated Sphinx and then copying it is normal. Some of the worst offenders include:
--Rafiq of the Many (a very greedy Ramp/ETB/Draw/Answers)
--Kaalia of the Vast (Manarocks into rapid deployment of Kaalia, then tutors for scary things to cheat in such as Master of Cruelties
--Animar Soul of Elements Ramp into big creatures and clone them for value.
--Oona Queen of the Fae basically monoblue Mana doubling with counterspells. The deck usually kills by playing and copying a bunch of Caged Suns or Extraplanar Lens and then milling with Oona, while protecting it's board with counters.
--Omnath, Locus of Mana Elves/Voltron. You would think this deck simply dies to our control spells, but it can rebuild quite rapidly, especially if it can regenerate Omnath or make him indestructible with Darksteel Plate or Asceticism. It also packs mass enchantment removal such as Harmonic Convergence (a bad day for us)
Granted, Humility and Torpor Orb have given them fits many times, but there are games where they get removed or milled away. What are some of the worst situations you've encountered, and how have you adapted? I realize we can't always win, but this deck does put up a great fight!
I'll also throw out a few card considerations or revisit a few things I've been testing to see what you think:
Oblation I'm currently testing this in the Vindicate spot because I feel like it's a bit more versatile. I like that it can function defensively as a tuck, as well as proactively by recycling one of our artifacts or enchantments that may be irrelevant to a particular game state, or are about to be destroyed by removal.
Gideon Champion of Justice I want to find a spot for him, perhaps in the No Mercy slot. While I believe in the power of No Mercy, I have also found that the creature assaults I take on can be overwhelming enough to kill me in one shot (Craterhoof Behemoth, Eldrazi conscriptioned Rafiq, etc. We have the tools to protect him, and his -15 ability seems like it'd be the realization of all of this deck's plans rolled into one, especially if we can float a bunch of mana before we activate it.
Bojuka Bog is in one of the Swamp slots for a bit of extra GY hate. Ill Gotten Gains has been an all-star, and it's such a blowout to kill someone's GY before playing it.
Idyllic Tutor Since adding Bojuka Bog, perhaps taking out one piece of artifact GY hate such as Tormod's Crypt, or the Spellbomb for an extra tutor for Humility would be useful, and not too detrimental to the mana curve. I suppose one could argue that it might be more helpful than Lim Dul's vault or Vampiric Tutor if you don't have an endstep to set them up, or don't want to use a drawstep on them.
Thanks again for hearing me out,
-Dia
Speaking from StyxofTolaria's meta and reading your meta's archetypes, here's a suggestion. This deck has played against a lot of the issues you mentioned, huge ones being ramp ramp ramp fatty fatty fatty and ETB effects going bonkers. When decks are going haywire, I always see Torpor Orb, any land destruction, or Humility doing unlimited work. Usually having to battle against this, I can say that a few cards like those can shut an aggro(which seems to be what you face a lot) deck down which gives you time to perform a lockout. Just some food for thought. Are there any pillowfort cards or cards your running to make targeting you harder? I see your humility and orb get targeted so I was just wondering.
[Primer] - Jor Kadeen, Boros Legionnaire
WUBRGSliver Legion, Slynergistic Slivertastic BeatdownWUBRG
Here are some of the EDH decks I have to deal with...
[Primer] WUBDromar, the Banisher Esper StaxWUB
Judging by your meta description, I would agree with you that Humility and Torpor Orb are all-stars however, as you mentioned, these are extremely prone to removal. As such, I would strongly recommend running Replenish if you are not running it currently. It does not protect against exile effects unfortunately, but it is extremely useful vs most of the removal thrown around. I am not currently running it, but Greater Auramancy may be something to consider for you, it would allow you to have it eat some of the removal before letting your opponents get to your other stuff. Another option, depending on how different your deck is from mine, is In the Eye of Chaos. I've considered it for even my deck, but I feel it may hose myself more than some decks in my meta however, in your meta you may find it great at helping provide further protection for some of your permanents.
If I had to guess, I would wager that your Animar and Oona decks enjoy casting multiple spells per turn, correct? If so, you may consider bringing in Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory, or Curse of Exhaustion. Have you considered any of these before? Back when I saw more spell based combo, rather than creature based (Ghave is the main culprit in my meta currently), I considered Rule of Law and Arcane Laboratory.
Kaalia should be a main priority for your entire table if they see her being cast, which may help alivate some of your need to handle the table. I will draw upon my experience fighting fast, voltron decks like Uril and Jor Kadeen in saying that Aura of Silence will slow down their fast mana rock deployment, but will also bring up Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, which can hold down a Kaalia pretty well. If you feel the need, again depending on your list, you could bring in another wrath effect. Against Kaalia, running Terminus alongside Hallowed Burial could be pretty useful. It sounds like a lot of your meta's decks are very general-specific, so employing tuck spells should help more. I agree with your consideration of Oblation over even Vindicate in this case. You could even potentially remove Smokestack if it is too slow for your meta, and replace it with either Oblation or Terminus, which would allow you to hold off some of those general-specific decks.
I touched on this earlier with Kaalia and your meta, but I think it sounds like a solid trade for your meta especially, and I may even consider it for mine. I personally have found Vindicate too useful to pull, but would consider pulling out possibly Path to Exile for Oblation. Path is one of the best spot removal spells ever printed, but hear me out for a second. The problem sometimes with Path is providing that land for our opponents. Giving my opponents resources goes completely against what this deck wants to be doing. Oblation provides two cards, but what good are those when they are struggling to cast spells against Nether Void or after a land wipe? If you try it out, let me know how it goes for your meta. I think tucking your opponents generals seems like a solid call, given how much they are relying on them to win.
I've wanted to test Gideon, Champion of Justice in this deck, as well as Gideon Jura, but have not as of yet. If you feel No Mercy has been less successful for you, and it has for me sometimes given the changes in the meta, then perhaps running either one of the two Gideons would be a good call. I personally like Gideon Jura a little more than the newer one for the following reasons: 1. Gideon provides pillowfort, and draws fire away from you and your other planeswalkers. 2. Gideon provides solid removal against aggro players who love to tap out and swing. This removal works well with Tamiyo and Gideon's first ability as well. 3, Gideon provides a win condition as a 6/6 beatstick that can survive board wipes and many other forms of removal. Gideon 2.0 is still solid, and in your meta he could probably reach 15 loyalty fast, but protecting him would require some careful planning, plus a fairly high Sphere of Safety if there are that many creatures on the field at any one time. If you do test either of them, let me know, as that -15 ability is extremely tempting, just not sure if 2.0 is necessarily better than the first Gideon.
Bojuka Bog is a great card, and I can see swapping a Swamp out for it being a good call. You are completely right that Ill-Gotten Gains has been insanely useful, and adding more graveyard hate would make it even better. I'll probably test this out and see if the CITP tapped trigger is okay for the effect.
I could see Idyllic Tutor replacing Lim-Dûl's Vault since the Vault can sometimes be less than useful without Sensei's Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor in play. While it has proven itself useful in the past, I can see where you are coming from in needing a card right away. I personally see enough recursion to still warrant keeping in Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb, but your meta's description did not list too much recursion, so I think pulling the Crypt might not be a bad call there. Nihil at least replaces itself, plus I'm of the opinion all decks need at least 2-3 graveyard removal options in the deck for potential opponents attempting to get the best of our stax effects via Crucible of Worlds, etc.
I hope all of this helps you out, and if you feel like it, you can post your decklist here and that might help with further tweaking.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
1 Dromar, the Banisher
Artifacts: 20
1 Azorius Keyrune
1 Azorius Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dimir Keyrune
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Mana Vault
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Torpor Orb
1 Trading Post
Creatures: 1
1 Sun Titan
Enchantments: 19
1 Aura of Silence
1 Bitterblossom
1 Blind Obedience
1 Desolation
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Humility
1 Land Equilibrium
1 Land Tax
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Mana Vortex
1 Mystic Remora
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pendrell Mists
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Propaganda
1 Rhystic Study
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Spells: 17
1 Armageddon
1 Catastrophe
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Oblation
1 Replenish
1 Return to Dust
1 Rule of Law
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wrath of God
Lands: 37
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kor Haven
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mystic Gate
5 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
As you can see, we agree on much of the build.
Differences (If I didn't put an explanation by a card its because it's already been discussed above.)
Spells:
-Tormod's Crypt
-No Mercy
-Path to Exile I think this was one of my original cuts. While I love the card it seemed off-plan by ramping the opponent.
-Supreme Verdict (or Wrath of God, I haven't fully committed to which one I'm taking out yet.)
+Idyllic Tutor
+Oblation
+Merciless Eviction I think you mentioned that you're testing this. I love it in my meta because people go nuts with Caged Sun Gauntlet of Power Sculpting Steel+Copy Arttifact
+Rule of Law This was something I was considering as well. I'm going to start by testing the white version, and see if I need the redundancy that Arcane Lab and the curse might offer.
These changes are +6mana on the overall mana curve. I did however add +2 land as I'll explain below. These changes bring the mana curve from 2.98 (your list) to 3.08 (my list). I think that's fairly acceptable, as our deck doesn't really need to have an exceptionally fast start.
Land:
FYI: In your list your land count is only 35! (This drove me nuts for about a half hour thinking I was 1 card over! Thx Deckstats!)
-Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth (I forgot to tell you about the other Stax Player in our meta: Mangara of Corondor that goes even deeper into white's pillowfort suite and eventually sets up a kill with Urborg+ Karma/Stern Judge. It's pretty hilarious actually... That said, I don't want to feed him by playing one of his combo pieces
-2x Island
+Underground Sea I understand why this and the delta might not be in. I have seen the prices for these two cards lately. Luckily, as a dealer I have ready access to a lot of deals
+Polluted Delta
+Arid Mesa Just another white fetch.
+Bojuka Bog and I didn't have to cut a swamp after all
+Kor Haven (I like this as a backup Maze of Ith, and it taps for mana. I don't actually count Maze as a "land" because it doesn't produce mana. I do realize that Urborg solves this, but for the reasons mentioned above, no Urborg
Other possibilities:
I liked the suggestions of possibly adding cards like Leyline of Sanctity, Greater Auramancy, and Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory.
Overburden is also quite attractive to me as well. Not sure which slot it goes in. Perhaps in one of the two slots dedicated to Desolation/Mana Vortex? How often do you find yourself wanting to stack these two effects or re-use them each game? Since adding an extra enchantment tutor, I think I'd be willing to drop one of these(most likely Vortex as, to me, it's not as raw-powerful as Desolation, even though I have an awesome signed copy )
Kjeldoran Outpost: As an additional token producer in a Plains slot. I have 12 effective Plains in the deck so this shouldn't be too much of an issue. One of my favorite old-school cards!
Reins of Power in one of the sweeper slots. Amazing instant-speed surprise factor, as well as a potential win-con. Although Wrath of God is almost too classic and iconic to take out, the new rules that take effect this month will add benefits to cards that tuck, exile, bounce, or switch control. I've already seen a resurgence in my meta of generals like Uril the Miststalker, Sigarda Host of Herons, Lazav Dimir Mastermind, and Thrun, the Last Troll. and ways that people make them indestructible such as darksteel plate, Auras, etc...
I tried Collective Restraint, and didn't like its interaction with Armageddon/Catastrophe.
I also did not find room for Gideon, Champion of Justice, sadly.
Thank you both for the tips and suggestions. I'll test these out when I get together with my group, and report back what I find out
-Dia
Let me know how Rule of Law goes, I am still interested in testing it out. I like most of your changes, mostly eying Oblation in the Path to Exile slot. I'll need to hang onto Tormod's Crypt, but I can see it not being as useful depending on the amount of recursion. So far in testing, Merciless Eviction has been incredible, easily worth the extra mana for the exile clause.
So I checked and actually what the problem was that Kor Haven was not in the main decklist, and was only under the Decklist by Function. Fixed! Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Anyways, I like the calls overall. Really wish I was able to acquire an Underground Sea and Polluted Delta atm, but they will have to wait for now. Arid Mesa and off-color fetches are nice, I am not a huge fan from a Vorthos perspective, but if you have them and need them, they can be great.
I find that Mana Vortex is the more powerful between the two cards. Desolation has it's uses however, especially vs "draw go" players. Overburden looks solid on paper, but I tested it at one point and wasn't overly impressed. It's not bad by any means, but not triggering off tokens really hurts it in my meta. That said, you could consider it in Desolation or Mana Vortex's place if you felt one or the other has not performed well for you.
I really like this card as well. I use to run it back when the deck was RWB and loved it, along with Kher Keep. I haven't found myself leaning on this card as much whenever I switched to running some of the manlands however, it is still a solid card on it's own. Provides stax upkeep, Sword carriers, etc.
I would consider adding in Hallowed Burial in place of one of the more traditional wrath effects then. If need be, there is also Terminus, which works incredibly well with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Sensei's Divining Top. Reins of Power is an interesting call, I've never actually considered it for this deck before, but I can see the potential applications and would be interested in hearing your testing of the card if you choose to.
Agreed on Collective Restraint. It can backfire horribly with the deck's interactions with land destruction.
BTW, any thoughts on Scroll Rack? Would work well with potentially adding Terminus, and works well with our shuffle effects, especially increasing the number of fetch lands, etc.
I'll update the change log, decklists, etc hopefully over this week with my changes since May and will review M14 for this deck as well.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
Gideon Jura will still become a 6/6 creature.
Here is a link to the ruling in case you wanted it:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=437484
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]