Pendrell Mists unfortunately did not work out well for this deck in the long-run. At first, it served as excellent taxing on my opponents, but as the meta added more removal, specifically the combo Ghave player that Pendrell Mists affected the most, the usefulness of Pendrell Mists ultimately diminished. By adding Jace, the Mind Sculptor the deck gained some additional draw power and card advantage engine, with the ability to function as a win condition as well. Sculpting Steel was nice ultility, but Dark Confidant provides solid card draw and functions as a Sword carrier as well. Terminus is a strict upgrade over Hallowed Burial with the addition of Jace, leading to even easier Miracle rigging if need be. Merciless Eviction was excellent in testing, providing the increasingly needed ability to exile, as well as deal with planeswalkers.
I am currently considering testing out Mutavault in place of Mishra's Factory due to a Sliver Queen deck being in the current meta, as well as considering Oblation and Gideon Jura. Oblation probably will be tested in place of Path to Exile, but unsure on Gideon Jura at the moment.
Yeah I like Terminus even if I have to hard-cast it. I'll try it in the Pendrell Mists spot as well. I feel like I'd rather be doing other things at 3U, such as Fact or Fiction, or a 4 CMC wrath effect. Unfortunately it's no Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, which is so much greater because it's un-counterable and free.
Scroll Rack, AKA "Skrak:" I generally like this card better in decks that don't play blue or have otherwise inadequate card draw for ~3 in it's colors (I'm looking at you mono White and mono Red). This is a card that I love putting on the drawing board, but it always seems to get cut. Maybe in a world where Sensei's Divining Top didn't exist...
We would likely be better off with another enchantment that draws cards, and we already use the three best options: (Mystic Remora, Rhystic Study, and Land Tax).
The next best options are Compulsion and Unfullfilled Desires, but they're a bit less mana efficient. I could see Compulsion being OK with Sun Titan. I've even seen people use Soothsaying. You might just be better off playing Fact or Fiction, a card that rivals Jace, the Mind Sculptor in power level and surpasses him in fun/skill check IMO
I've been considering dropping Faeire Conclave, Flagstones of Trokair, and maybe one or two more nonbasics for more basic lands. My meta has upped the amount of Blood Moon / Ruination effects to the point that I think I may need to reevaluate the mana base somewhat. This would also open me up to join in on the nonbasic hate by adding in Back to Basics, most likely in Desolation's spot.
I want to consider bringing in Cataclysm for the deck as well. If Back to Basics did not go into Desolation's spot, then Cataclysm might be a solid call. I have used it in the past to some success, and like the reset button it provides.
M14 did not add anything to the current list, with only Dismiss into Dream really being the only stax-like card in the set overall. At 7 mana, the cost does not justify running the enchantment for this deck.
How are you liking the mass tuck over straight up wraths?
For me they've been superior in every way. And it's just smart.
I like them a lot so far. Merciless Eviction has been useful for me pretty much every time I have had it in hand. And with the recent legend rule change, tuck has become more important than ever, so Terminus has been especially useful there as well. Rigging a miracle is also fun.
I added back in Cataclysm to serve as semi-full board wipe on everything, and it has preformed much better than I anticipated. I found myself needing some additional land destruction, and with Ravages of War out of budget, this seemed great. The ability to keep planeswalkers around has been great with it as well.
Still testing Back to Basics and Oblation, but haven't pulled Oblation yet. Back to Basics helped me clench a lock-out one game with some of the other pieces though. Probably going to give them at least another few weeks to decide if they stay or go.
Cataclysm is a really fun EDH card! It's "fair" in the way that Ill-Gotten Gains is "fair." Usually whoever was ahead stays ahead, but the more greedily people play the more punishing this card/deck can be. I'm in agreement that this deserves a spot in the deck.
New acquisitions for me: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale English! /brags Invoke Prejudice Despite the UUUU cost... I'm pretty sure this is as devastating as Nether Void, moreso if a spell is CMC>4, given that we are creaturelsss 98% of the time.
New Additions: Luminarch Ascension While this card is silly to play in the first few turns, it gives us a bit "quicker" of a win condition once a lock is achieved-- a mercy killing in a way
Thoughts on the deck after playing with it for several months:
Most people have taken to the Stax archtype in my meta, especially when we play "no holds barred" tournament pods once a month. I tell people that this deck's power level is very high, and it's going to be "Expert difficulty" when they play against it. I wouldn't say it's a true archenemy style deck, but it can get that way when Humility/Orb hits the board. While reactions have been mixed, most have welcomed the challenge, and some even delighted at being "keyed" to death!
The best analogy I can give is that of Mixed Martial Arts: Some fighters want to knock an opponent out with punches and kicks, but this is more of a "submission hold" type of deck, making people "tap out" or give up... In that sport, both styles of fighting are respected, but use very different means to achieve the goal.
I added back in Cataclysm to serve as semi-full board wipe on everything, and it has preformed much better than I anticipated. I found myself needing some additional land destruction, and with Ravages of War out of budget, this seemed great. The ability to keep planeswalkers around has been great with it as well.
Cataclysm doesn't save planeswalkers though. It forces each player to sacrifice all permanents aside from up to one artifact, enchantment, creature and land. Planeswalkers, unless they qualify as one of the other permanent super-types, don't survive. Still a good stax card in general, but definitely gives no quarter for planeswalker abuse.
Cataclysm is a really fun EDH card! It's "fair" in the way that Ill-Gotten Gains is "fair." Usually whoever was ahead stays ahead, but the more greedily people play the more punishing this card/deck can be. I'm in agreement that this deserves a spot in the deck.
New acquisitions for me: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale English! /brags Invoke Prejudice Despite the UUUU cost... I'm pretty sure this is as devastating as Nether Void, moreso if a spell is CMC>4, given that we are creaturelsss 98% of the time.
New Additions: Luminarch Ascension While this card is silly to play in the first few turns, it gives us a bit "quicker" of a win condition once a lock is achieved-- a mercy killing in a way
Thoughts on the deck after playing with it for several months:
Most people have taken to the Stax archtype in my meta, especially when we play "no holds barred" tournament pods once a month. I tell people that this deck's power level is very high, and it's going to be "Expert difficulty" when they play against it. I wouldn't say it's a true archenemy style deck, but it can get that way when Humility/Orb hits the board. While reactions have been mixed, most have welcomed the challenge, and some even delighted at being "keyed" to death!
The best analogy I can give is that of Mixed Martial Arts: Some fighters want to knock an opponent out with punches and kicks, but this is more of a "submission hold" type of deck, making people "top out" or give up... In that sport, both styles of fighting are respected, but use very different means to achieve the goal.
I like the additions Diadallos. Tabernacle is one of the cards that I would love to own, but have yet to acquire. I imagine the results are even better than Pendrell Mists, given Tabernacle is a land.
Invoke Prejudice is a card that I am interested in hearing about. The four blue has always thrown me off slightly, but if it can be cast and stick, then I can see the potential lock-out abilities rivaling Humility / Night of Souls Betrayal level. Keep me updated on how it goes for you, especially with the casting cost. I am currently in the process of upping my basic count in an effort to play around so many Ruination / Blood Moon effects currently in my meta.
Luminarch Ascension is incredible, assuming you can correctly pillowfort to protect yourself. I have considered the card numerous times, but oddly feel that it draws as much hate in my meta as something like Nether Void. The combo/token Ghave, Guru of Spores player employs Luminarch to deadly effect, but usually has the entire table attempting to knock him out of the game whenever he plays it. Again, let me know how testing this card goes for you, as I am cautious to add it at the moment.
Haha, I like the analogy you gave on how the deck plays. That's a pretty correct example involving how this deck aims to lock opponents in a "submission hold". Some games do have the tendency to become archenemy, but like your meta, many in mine also have grown to appreciate fighting the deck.
Cataclysm doesn't save planeswalkers though. It forces each player to sacrifice all permanents aside from up to one artifact, enchantment, creature and land. Planeswalkers, unless they qualify as one of the other permanent super-types, don't survive. Still a good stax card in general, but definitely gives no quarter for planeswalker abuse.
Ah, wow. I should RTFC better. At least the incident with Planeswalkers has probably come up no more than once or twice now. Good to remember in the future though. Thanks!
EDIT: Updated the decklist and change-log with all the latest changes:
This was exactly what I did! Smokestack just hasn't impacted the board in very effective ways, and is a near-dead draw in the late game.
I agree. I tried to find ways to keep it in the deck, but the usefulness just eventually ran out in the current state of my meta. I still enjoy the card in certain decks, but found this one benefited from Cataclysm more.
I've never been completely oppressed by Blood Moon effects, as I generally tutor for Land Tax as quickly as possible. It's non-threatening, guarantees my land drops and sets me up nice for a recovery if I choose to Armageddon or Cataclysm. Also from my experience in Legacy, I try my best to fetch Basics with my fetches if I can afford to, and avoid getting needlessly greedy with fixing. Finally, as long as we can prioritize securing BWW we can effectively tutor for and cast any of our spot/Mass removal.
I like most of your changes, but wondering about pulling Catastrophe out. I enjoy the utility it provides, though I will admit I usually pick the land wipe option. I may test out Luminarch Ascension in Desolation's spot as well. Usually Mana Vortex is always enough and I like the steady, forced approach it brings at resource denial.
In other news, due to trading around some cards I don't have a use for, I have been able to get a Forcefield for this deck finally. I am going to be using it in the Blind Obedience spot as I find that to be the least used of my current pillowforting suite. I immediately played a match and was impressed with it overall. It was especially useful with Tezzeret the Seeker. I'm curious to see how it will play out long-term, but have high hopes for it.
I think you could argue that Cataclysm is a bit more powerful of an effect than Catastrophe, for less mana. In the end I still get to keep a land-kill spell with an added bonus I just categorized the swaps in the above list more on mana curve rather than by function.
I think you could argue that Cataclysm is a bit more powerful of an effect than Catastrophe, for less mana. In the end I still get to keep a land-kill spell with an added bonus I just categorized the swaps in the above list more on mana curve rather than by function.
And for those unaware: Dromar's ability is a triggered ability, despite that it has the 2U cost to activate it.
I'll take out Blind Obedience as well, replacing it with Cursed Totem and see where this goes. Nice pickup on the Forcefield!
I actually would be interested in trying out Cursed Totem in Desolation's place. I haven't been able to test Luminarch Ascension out yet, and actually think Cursed Totem would be better for the deck given how well it works with the rest of the lock-out stax.
Well, we've seen a nice chunk of the mythics for Theroes, but so far nothing has really caught my eye besides Elspeth 3.0.
I think Thassa, God of the Sea and Erebos, God of the Dead are both solid cards, but I don't necessarily believe so for this deck. I guess I could see them functioning as beatsticks if need be, depending on Devotion.
Heliod, God of the Sun just seems too expensive for producing just a 2/1 token. The static ability does not really catch my eye either, as I never have more than a few tokens at any given time.
What does excite me however, is Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Here is a very solid planeswalker for this deck, providing a steady stream of tokens and removal. Her emblem is probably win-more, but I am basing her value of her first two abilities. Not really sure what to take out at the moment for testing, but I think she could potentially earn a spot.
I think Thassa is a -strong- contender and will earn some testing.
Pros for her:
+Essentially a planeswalker with an aggressively low cost
+Indestructible Attacker/Blocker
+Potentially Unblockable Sword Carrier or Dromar (takes some planning with SOFI)
+Enchantment (interacts well with a lot of things in our deck)
+Scry ability which is very good when this deck -occasionally- stalls or needs to dig for a board wipe/tutor.
Con: Not always a creature. (but this can be helpful when we cast terminus, then add devotion like Invoke Prejudice, or Replenish with our card-drawer enchantments, Taimyo (though she may be the slot that gets cut), Tezzeret, and Rule of law can be easily changed to Arcane Laboratory.
Some potential slots:
Tamiyo (I feel like she may be an under performer, I've achieved her ultimate and still lost the game.)
Sun Titan: (can be fragile at times. Comparatively costly.)
Maze of Ith (Indestructible Blocker might be an ample replacement. I seldom tutor for this card as opposed to Swords to Plowshares or a board wipe.)
I'm not sure about Elspeth. I don't see her a better than something like Luminarch Ascension, and Sorin can make 2+ more useful tokens or emblems before this Elspeth can even come online. I see Elspeth Tirel as strictly better for making tokens and protecting our life total. Retribution of the Meek only costs 2W, does not allow for regenneration, yet neither of those cards even come near consideration for our already very tight list
Erebos: Greed on an indestructible body is pretty cool, Not sure that we care about "players can't gain life" because our deck wins by general damage or people quit," which brings me to:
Another Topic Entirely: Sword Package
How has this been performing overall? I'm finding that sword package is hit or miss lately. While it's very very fun to keyrune people to death with sword attached, it isn't the most efficient way to kill a table of four. It can "represent a win" and force people to quit after lockout, but maybe we can brainstorm some alternate ways to kill more efficiently, without the use of infinite combo.
I think Luminarch Ascension has been a great start, as it represents a win to a locked table like no other.
Necropotence is a dirty word these days, but perhaps it can move the plan along a lot faster. We're already playing kinda dirty here, and Necro is the dirtiest
I think Thassa is a -strong- contender and will earn some testing.
Pros for her:
+Essentially a planeswalker with an aggressively low cost
+Indestructible Attacker/Blocker
+Potentially Unblockable Sword Carrier or Dromar (takes some planning with SOFI)
+Enchantment (interacts well with a lot of things in our deck)
+Scry ability which is very good when this deck -occasionally- stalls or needs to dig for a board wipe/tutor.
Con: Not always a creature. (but this can be helpful when we cast terminus, then add devotion like Invoke Prejudice, or Replenish with our card-drawer enchantments, Taimyo (though she may be the slot that gets cut), Tezzeret, and Rule of law can be easily changed to Arcane Laboratory.
Some potential slots:
Tamiyo (I feel like she may be an under performer, I've achieved her ultimate and still lost the game.)
Sun Titan: (can be fragile at times. Comparatively costly.)
Maze of Ith (Indestructible Blocker might be an ample replacement. I seldom tutor for this card as opposed to Swords to Plowshares or a board wipe.)
I like your analysis of Thassa. As you mentioned, her scry ability is really useful, and guaranteeing Sword triggers is highly useful if you have some of the wrong protections equipped. Currently I do not run Invoke Prejudice, so achieving the Devotion clause might be hard, but not necessarily a bad thing given how much we wrath/tuck the board.
Tamiyo has become one of the under performing cards for me as well. I actually have been testing out the other new planeswalker: Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. She has been fairly nice under the lock out effects at denying opponents yet another resource: their library. Hr ultimate is incredibly backbreaking for pretty much any deck, and perhaps even better than Tamiyo's in some regards. I like that both Ashiok and Thassa cost 3, so Sun Titan can still retrieve them as well. I think we can both agree that the Tamiyo slot may be the one we test these two new cards out in.
I'm not sure about Elspeth. I don't see her a better than something like Luminarch Ascension, and Sorin can make 2+ more useful tokens or emblems before this Elspeth can even come online. I see Elspeth Tirel as strictly better for making tokens and protecting our life total. Retribution of the Meek only costs 2W, does not allow for regenneration, yet neither of those cards even come near consideration for our already very tight list
I tested her in a RWB list and she was able to take over a game fairly well, but her mana cost is slightly off putting for this deck, which wants it to stay as low as possible for us.
Another Topic Entirely: Sword Package
How has this been performing overall? I'm finding that sword package is hit or miss lately. While it's very very fun to keyrune people to death with sword attached, it isn't the most efficient way to kill a table of four. It can "represent a win" and force people to quit after lockout, but maybe we can brainstorm some alternate ways to kill more efficiently, without the use of infinite combo.
I think Luminarch Ascension has been a great start, as it represents a win to a locked table like no other.
Necropotence is a dirty word these days, but perhaps it can move the plan along a lot faster. We're already playing kinda dirty here, and Necro is the dirtiest
The Sword package has still been performing well overall. Usually I always have some sort of token, man land, or Dromar to equip them to, with them being one of my primary ways of winning once resources have thinned for my opponents.
Capsize is a great card to consider, but I think it largely depends on how much mana you achieve on average between land wipes. For my meta, I am not the only player who wipes lands, so it could potentially get hairy if I was aiming to get the buyback part going. Still, it's a very solid card and can save our planeswalkers and other hard to recur stuff, in addition to already keeping our opponents from keeping much on the field. What slot would you be considering this in?
Necropotence is absolutely one of the best draw spells ever printed, I know with the duals and filter lands that we could hit the triple black needed as well. You don't run Dark Confidant do you? Perhaps this would make a good test card in that same slot for you? I know I still have been getting a lot of mileage out of Bob between the card draw and Sword carrying from him.
Jace has been performing for me really well for the most part. He is a win condition for this deck under a lock out, and his advantages in draw power are still great with the fetch lands, Land Tax, etc.
In regards to the counter package, I have been considering adding in some of the free counters: Pact of Negation, Force of Will, etc. to help out against some of the crazier plays + removal aimed at our key stax pieces. Out of the ones you listed, I like Arcane Denial and Muddle the Mixture, though I've had some success with Delay in other decks.
Counters: I'd consider Pact of Negation as well as Mana Drain(:D) (Both of which are in my "Edric LOelf" deck right now)
Force of Will would not likely make the cut as our blue count is a bit low to support it.
Permanent Change:
-Tamiyo the Moon Sage +Jace the Mind Sculptor
EDIT: Further Brewing Storm Cauldron!!! I dunno if you're aware of this card but it's a real nightmare to play against if you don't bring the rocks like we do. Might be just what we've always wanted. I realize it doesen't interact well with Armageddon, but imagine the possibilities with this and Ghostly Prison or Nether Void.
We could also shift more toward Planeswalker control, adding the likes of Sorin Markov or Liliana Vess.
Further cuts:
Now that I'm freed of the sword package, I could consider cutting manlands for more basics
Bitterblossom becomes less desirable now that I have no swords to equip to the tokens Liliana of the Veil is probably not as gamebreaking as Liliana Vess's ultimate could be.
All of this said, I hope I'm not stepping too far out of bounds for this Primer, but just want to try a few different things to make sure I'm not wrong
I'll post a final list once I get a chance to test more with Theros cards.
I like your changes on adding in the counter spell package. Let me know how the changes goes. It sounded like you weren't getting as much mileage out of the Swords as I still currently am.
Tamiyo also has come out of my build as well. I went with Thassa though. You made a compelling case for her earlier, warranting a testing of her. The indestructible card filtering is very nice, with all of her other abilities a bonus.
Storm Cauldron I am slightly more nervous on adding. Some green decks in my meta could potentially play around this and even break it in their favor. I have consider shifting more towards planeswalker control with lock-out stax support, instead of the opposite set up. As you mentioned, bringing in Sorin Markov would allow for another win condition, but I also like the new Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver whenever I temporarily tested her in Tamiyo's place.
Forcefield has proven to be far superior pillowforting than Blind Obedience ever could. The extort mechanic was rarely utilized, leaving this as little more than a bad Kismet effect. I dropped Desolation for Cursed Totem due to a massive rise in non-ETB creatures in my meta with a large variety of abilities that this can help lock-out. Tamiyo slowly became little more than a five mana tap-down effect for one turn, or perhaps draw a few cards. The emblem was great, but makes you an even bigger target than just playing a stax deck does already. Thassa is a recent addition, but I like the subtle card advantage she gives, especially when digging for an answer. Her ability to help generate Sword triggers, or damage in general, is a great bonus. Being indestructible is very nice, as well.
I didn't read all the pages but I was wondering why Dark Confidant over Dark Tutelage it seems an enchantment would be far superior over a creature especially since you have things that benefit from having more enchantments.
I didn't read all the pages but I was wondering why Dark Confidant over Dark Tutelage it seems an enchantment would be far superior over a creature especially since you have things that benefit from having more enchantments.
I could be wrong but I think Dark Confidant is better than Dark Tutelage for two reasons. First as a creature it is easier to get rid of if his life goes to low and second he can hold a sword.
I didn't read all the pages but I was wondering why Dark Confidant over Dark Tutelage it seems an enchantment would be far superior over a creature especially since you have things that benefit from having more enchantments.
Vash summed it up well. Dark Confidant can carry swords, beat for 2, comes down early, and can be removed far easier than Dark Tutelage. That being said, if you don't have the money for Bob, I still believe that Tutelege is better than many people would think if your wanting a more budget option.
Thanks for the understanding. The sword thing makes sense. I am moving from a Zur the Hated Out...to a decklist similar to the style of this one..and will probably be asking a bunch of questions.
Thanks for the understanding. The sword thing makes sense. I am moving from a Zur the Hated Out...to a decklist similar to the style of this one..and will probably be asking a bunch of questions.
7/9/13:
-Pendrell Mists, +Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-Sculpting Steel, +Dark Confidant
-Hallowed Burial, +Terminus
-Surpreme Verdict, +Merciless Eviction
Pendrell Mists unfortunately did not work out well for this deck in the long-run. At first, it served as excellent taxing on my opponents, but as the meta added more removal, specifically the combo Ghave player that Pendrell Mists affected the most, the usefulness of Pendrell Mists ultimately diminished. By adding Jace, the Mind Sculptor the deck gained some additional draw power and card advantage engine, with the ability to function as a win condition as well. Sculpting Steel was nice ultility, but Dark Confidant provides solid card draw and functions as a Sword carrier as well. Terminus is a strict upgrade over Hallowed Burial with the addition of Jace, leading to even easier Miracle rigging if need be. Merciless Eviction was excellent in testing, providing the increasingly needed ability to exile, as well as deal with planeswalkers.
I am currently considering testing out Mutavault in place of Mishra's Factory due to a Sliver Queen deck being in the current meta, as well as considering Oblation and Gideon Jura. Oblation probably will be tested in place of Path to Exile, but unsure on Gideon Jura at the moment.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Scroll Rack, AKA "Skrak:" I generally like this card better in decks that don't play blue or have otherwise inadequate card draw for ~3 in it's colors (I'm looking at you mono White and mono Red). This is a card that I love putting on the drawing board, but it always seems to get cut. Maybe in a world where Sensei's Divining Top didn't exist...
We would likely be better off with another enchantment that draws cards, and we already use the three best options: (Mystic Remora, Rhystic Study, and Land Tax).
The next best options are Compulsion and Unfullfilled Desires, but they're a bit less mana efficient. I could see Compulsion being OK with Sun Titan. I've even seen people use Soothsaying. You might just be better off playing Fact or Fiction, a card that rivals Jace, the Mind Sculptor in power level and surpasses him in fun/skill check IMO
I want to consider bringing in Cataclysm for the deck as well. If Back to Basics did not go into Desolation's spot, then Cataclysm might be a solid call. I have used it in the past to some success, and like the reset button it provides.
M14 did not add anything to the current list, with only Dismiss into Dream really being the only stax-like card in the set overall. At 7 mana, the cost does not justify running the enchantment for this deck.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
For me they've been superior in every way. And it's just smart.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I like them a lot so far. Merciless Eviction has been useful for me pretty much every time I have had it in hand. And with the recent legend rule change, tuck has become more important than ever, so Terminus has been especially useful there as well. Rigging a miracle is also fun.
I added back in Cataclysm to serve as semi-full board wipe on everything, and it has preformed much better than I anticipated. I found myself needing some additional land destruction, and with Ravages of War out of budget, this seemed great. The ability to keep planeswalkers around has been great with it as well.
Still testing Back to Basics and Oblation, but haven't pulled Oblation yet. Back to Basics helped me clench a lock-out one game with some of the other pieces though. Probably going to give them at least another few weeks to decide if they stay or go.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
New acquisitions for me:
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale English! /brags
Invoke Prejudice Despite the UUUU cost... I'm pretty sure this is as devastating as Nether Void, moreso if a spell is CMC>4, given that we are creaturelsss 98% of the time.
New Additions:
Luminarch Ascension While this card is silly to play in the first few turns, it gives us a bit "quicker" of a win condition once a lock is achieved-- a mercy killing in a way
Thoughts on the deck after playing with it for several months:
Most people have taken to the Stax archtype in my meta, especially when we play "no holds barred" tournament pods once a month. I tell people that this deck's power level is very high, and it's going to be "Expert difficulty" when they play against it. I wouldn't say it's a true archenemy style deck, but it can get that way when Humility/Orb hits the board. While reactions have been mixed, most have welcomed the challenge, and some even delighted at being "keyed" to death!
The best analogy I can give is that of Mixed Martial Arts: Some fighters want to knock an opponent out with punches and kicks, but this is more of a "submission hold" type of deck, making people "tap out" or give up... In that sport, both styles of fighting are respected, but use very different means to achieve the goal.
Cataclysm doesn't save planeswalkers though. It forces each player to sacrifice all permanents aside from up to one artifact, enchantment, creature and land. Planeswalkers, unless they qualify as one of the other permanent super-types, don't survive. Still a good stax card in general, but definitely gives no quarter for planeswalker abuse.
I like the additions Diadallos. Tabernacle is one of the cards that I would love to own, but have yet to acquire. I imagine the results are even better than Pendrell Mists, given Tabernacle is a land.
Invoke Prejudice is a card that I am interested in hearing about. The four blue has always thrown me off slightly, but if it can be cast and stick, then I can see the potential lock-out abilities rivaling Humility / Night of Souls Betrayal level. Keep me updated on how it goes for you, especially with the casting cost. I am currently in the process of upping my basic count in an effort to play around so many Ruination / Blood Moon effects currently in my meta.
Luminarch Ascension is incredible, assuming you can correctly pillowfort to protect yourself. I have considered the card numerous times, but oddly feel that it draws as much hate in my meta as something like Nether Void. The combo/token Ghave, Guru of Spores player employs Luminarch to deadly effect, but usually has the entire table attempting to knock him out of the game whenever he plays it. Again, let me know how testing this card goes for you, as I am cautious to add it at the moment.
Haha, I like the analogy you gave on how the deck plays. That's a pretty correct example involving how this deck aims to lock opponents in a "submission hold". Some games do have the tendency to become archenemy, but like your meta, many in mine also have grown to appreciate fighting the deck.
Ah, wow. I should RTFC better. At least the incident with Planeswalkers has probably come up no more than once or twice now. Good to remember in the future though. Thanks!
EDIT: Updated the decklist and change-log with all the latest changes:
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
This was exactly what I did! Smokestack just hasn't impacted the board in very effective ways, and is a near-dead draw in the late game.
I agree. I tried to find ways to keep it in the deck, but the usefulness just eventually ran out in the current state of my meta. I still enjoy the card in certain decks, but found this one benefited from Cataclysm more.
What did you end up taking out of your deck to test Luminarch Ascension and Invoke Prejudice?
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
-Idyllic Tutor + Grim Tutor (Another recent Acquisition, through the online store I run)
-Desolation + Luminarch Ascension
-Night of Souls Betrayal +Invoke Prejudice
-Catastrophe +Terminus
-Smokestack, +Cataclysm
-Pendrell Mists +The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Change in colored symbols:
-BBBBUWWW
+BBUUUUWWW
So this warranted a swap of +1 Island -1 Swamp.
My list:
1 Dromar, the Banisher
Artifacts:
1 Azorius Keyrune
1 Azorius Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dimir Keyrune
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Mana Vault
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Torpor Orb
1 Trading Post
Creatures: 1
1 Sun Titan
Enchantments:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Bitterblossom
1 Blind Obedience
1 Desolation
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Humility
1 Invoke Prejudice
1 Land Equilibrium
1 Land Tax
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Mana Vortex
1 Mystic Remora
1 Nether Void
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Propaganda
1 Rule of Law
1 Rhystic Study
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Spells:
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Oblation
1 Replenish
1 Return to Dust
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Terminus
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wrath of God
Lands: 38
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kor Haven
4 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mystic Gate
5 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
I've never been completely oppressed by Blood Moon effects, as I generally tutor for Land Tax as quickly as possible. It's non-threatening, guarantees my land drops and sets me up nice for a recovery if I choose to Armageddon or Cataclysm. Also from my experience in Legacy, I try my best to fetch Basics with my fetches if I can afford to, and avoid getting needlessly greedy with fixing. Finally, as long as we can prioritize securing BWW we can effectively tutor for and cast any of our spot/Mass removal.
I like most of your changes, but wondering about pulling Catastrophe out. I enjoy the utility it provides, though I will admit I usually pick the land wipe option. I may test out Luminarch Ascension in Desolation's spot as well. Usually Mana Vortex is always enough and I like the steady, forced approach it brings at resource denial.
In other news, due to trading around some cards I don't have a use for, I have been able to get a Forcefield for this deck finally. I am going to be using it in the Blind Obedience spot as I find that to be the least used of my current pillowforting suite. I immediately played a match and was impressed with it overall. It was especially useful with Tezzeret the Seeker. I'm curious to see how it will play out long-term, but have high hopes for it.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Something that was suggested to me as a companion to Torpor Orb: Cursed Totem
Many people in my meta have been reacting to torpor orb by adding more rattlesnake creatures such as Viridian Zealot or Nullmage Shepherd. I also play against mana-elf engine decks such as Ezuri Renegade Leader, Rhys the Redeemed and Edric Spymaster of Trest.
And for those unaware: Dromar's ability is a triggered ability, despite that it has the 2U cost to activate it.
I'll take out Blind Obedience as well, replacing it with Cursed Totem and see where this goes. Nice pickup on the Forcefield!
I actually would be interested in trying out Cursed Totem in Desolation's place. I haven't been able to test Luminarch Ascension out yet, and actually think Cursed Totem would be better for the deck given how well it works with the rest of the lock-out stax.
I think the changes will look like this:
-Desolation, +Cursed Totem
-Blind Obedience, +Forcefield
Yeah, I have seen a friend of mine run it within the meta and did well. I think I will test that out in place of Desolation.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
I think Thassa, God of the Sea and Erebos, God of the Dead are both solid cards, but I don't necessarily believe so for this deck. I guess I could see them functioning as beatsticks if need be, depending on Devotion.
Heliod, God of the Sun just seems too expensive for producing just a 2/1 token. The static ability does not really catch my eye either, as I never have more than a few tokens at any given time.
What does excite me however, is Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Here is a very solid planeswalker for this deck, providing a steady stream of tokens and removal. Her emblem is probably win-more, but I am basing her value of her first two abilities. Not really sure what to take out at the moment for testing, but I think she could potentially earn a spot.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
I think Thassa is a -strong- contender and will earn some testing.
Pros for her:
+Essentially a planeswalker with an aggressively low cost
+Indestructible Attacker/Blocker
+Potentially Unblockable Sword Carrier or Dromar (takes some planning with SOFI)
+Enchantment (interacts well with a lot of things in our deck)
+Scry ability which is very good when this deck -occasionally- stalls or needs to dig for a board wipe/tutor.
Con: Not always a creature. (but this can be helpful when we cast terminus, then add devotion like Invoke Prejudice, or Replenish with our card-drawer enchantments, Taimyo (though she may be the slot that gets cut), Tezzeret, and Rule of law can be easily changed to Arcane Laboratory.
Some potential slots:
Tamiyo (I feel like she may be an under performer, I've achieved her ultimate and still lost the game.)
Sun Titan: (can be fragile at times. Comparatively costly.)
Maze of Ith (Indestructible Blocker might be an ample replacement. I seldom tutor for this card as opposed to Swords to Plowshares or a board wipe.)
I'm not sure about Elspeth. I don't see her a better than something like Luminarch Ascension, and Sorin can make 2+ more useful tokens or emblems before this Elspeth can even come online. I see Elspeth Tirel as strictly better for making tokens and protecting our life total. Retribution of the Meek only costs 2W, does not allow for regenneration, yet neither of those cards even come near consideration for our already very tight list
Erebos: Greed on an indestructible body is pretty cool, Not sure that we care about "players can't gain life" because our deck wins by general damage or people quit," which brings me to:
Another Topic Entirely: Sword Package
How has this been performing overall? I'm finding that sword package is hit or miss lately. While it's very very fun to keyrune people to death with sword attached, it isn't the most efficient way to kill a table of four. It can "represent a win" and force people to quit after lockout, but maybe we can brainstorm some alternate ways to kill more efficiently, without the use of infinite combo.
I think Luminarch Ascension has been a great start, as it represents a win to a locked table like no other.
Necropotence is a dirty word these days, but perhaps it can move the plan along a lot faster. We're already playing kinda dirty here, and Necro is the dirtiest
Capsize also represents a win, albeit expensive.
While I personally do not run Jace the Mind Sculptor, I think I may consider it now that the FTV20 is available in foil.
Flip side of the coin: we could run a few more answers, ala Counterspell Arcane Denial, Delay, Envelop, or Muddle the Mixture.
I like your analysis of Thassa. As you mentioned, her scry ability is really useful, and guaranteeing Sword triggers is highly useful if you have some of the wrong protections equipped. Currently I do not run Invoke Prejudice, so achieving the Devotion clause might be hard, but not necessarily a bad thing given how much we wrath/tuck the board.
Tamiyo has become one of the under performing cards for me as well. I actually have been testing out the other new planeswalker: Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. She has been fairly nice under the lock out effects at denying opponents yet another resource: their library. Hr ultimate is incredibly backbreaking for pretty much any deck, and perhaps even better than Tamiyo's in some regards. I like that both Ashiok and Thassa cost 3, so Sun Titan can still retrieve them as well. I think we can both agree that the Tamiyo slot may be the one we test these two new cards out in.
I tested her in a RWB list and she was able to take over a game fairly well, but her mana cost is slightly off putting for this deck, which wants it to stay as low as possible for us.
The Sword package has still been performing well overall. Usually I always have some sort of token, man land, or Dromar to equip them to, with them being one of my primary ways of winning once resources have thinned for my opponents.
Capsize is a great card to consider, but I think it largely depends on how much mana you achieve on average between land wipes. For my meta, I am not the only player who wipes lands, so it could potentially get hairy if I was aiming to get the buyback part going. Still, it's a very solid card and can save our planeswalkers and other hard to recur stuff, in addition to already keeping our opponents from keeping much on the field. What slot would you be considering this in?
Necropotence is absolutely one of the best draw spells ever printed, I know with the duals and filter lands that we could hit the triple black needed as well. You don't run Dark Confidant do you? Perhaps this would make a good test card in that same slot for you? I know I still have been getting a lot of mileage out of Bob between the card draw and Sword carrying from him.
Jace has been performing for me really well for the most part. He is a win condition for this deck under a lock out, and his advantages in draw power are still great with the fetch lands, Land Tax, etc.
In regards to the counter package, I have been considering adding in some of the free counters: Pact of Negation, Force of Will, etc. to help out against some of the crazier plays + removal aimed at our key stax pieces. Out of the ones you listed, I like Arcane Denial and Muddle the Mixture, though I've had some success with Delay in other decks.
Currently testing and changes:
Testing:
-Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, +Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver or Thassa, God of the Sea
Changes:
-Desolation, +Cursed Totem
-Blind Obedience, +Forcefield
I will update the Primer with these changes shortly.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
-Sword of Fire and Ice
-Sword of War and Peace
-Sword of Feast and Famine
+Counterspell
+Muddle the Mixture
+Arcane Denial
Counters: I'd consider Pact of Negation as well as Mana Drain(:D) (Both of which are in my "Edric LOelf" deck right now)
Force of Will would not likely make the cut as our blue count is a bit low to support it.
Permanent Change:
-Tamiyo the Moon Sage +Jace the Mind Sculptor
Im considering:
-Sculpting Steel
+Necropotence
OR
+Capsize
OR
+Thassa God of the Sea
Any of these three cards I'd rather have than Sculpting Steel I think. Tell me an epic Sculpting Steel story and I may change my mind
EDIT: Further Brewing
Storm Cauldron!!! I dunno if you're aware of this card but it's a real nightmare to play against if you don't bring the rocks like we do. Might be just what we've always wanted. I realize it doesen't interact well with Armageddon, but imagine the possibilities with this and Ghostly Prison or Nether Void.
We could also shift more toward Planeswalker control, adding the likes of Sorin Markov or Liliana Vess.
Further cuts:
Now that I'm freed of the sword package, I could consider cutting manlands for more basics
Bitterblossom becomes less desirable now that I have no swords to equip to the tokens
Liliana of the Veil is probably not as gamebreaking as Liliana Vess's ultimate could be.
All of this said, I hope I'm not stepping too far out of bounds for this Primer, but just want to try a few different things to make sure I'm not wrong
I'll post a final list once I get a chance to test more with Theros cards.
I like your changes on adding in the counter spell package. Let me know how the changes goes. It sounded like you weren't getting as much mileage out of the Swords as I still currently am.
Tamiyo also has come out of my build as well. I went with Thassa though. You made a compelling case for her earlier, warranting a testing of her. The indestructible card filtering is very nice, with all of her other abilities a bonus.
Storm Cauldron I am slightly more nervous on adding. Some green decks in my meta could potentially play around this and even break it in their favor. I have consider shifting more towards planeswalker control with lock-out stax support, instead of the opposite set up. As you mentioned, bringing in Sorin Markov would allow for another win condition, but I also like the new Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver whenever I temporarily tested her in Tamiyo's place.
Here's what my latest changes look like:
9/26/13:
-Blind Obedience, +Forcefield
-Desolation, +Cursed Totem
-Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, +Thassa, God of the Sea
Forcefield has proven to be far superior pillowforting than Blind Obedience ever could. The extort mechanic was rarely utilized, leaving this as little more than a bad Kismet effect. I dropped Desolation for Cursed Totem due to a massive rise in non-ETB creatures in my meta with a large variety of abilities that this can help lock-out. Tamiyo slowly became little more than a five mana tap-down effect for one turn, or perhaps draw a few cards. The emblem was great, but makes you an even bigger target than just playing a stax deck does already. Thassa is a recent addition, but I like the subtle card advantage she gives, especially when digging for an answer. Her ability to help generate Sword triggers, or damage in general, is a great bonus. Being indestructible is very nice, as well.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
I didn't read all the pages but I was wondering why Dark Confidant over Dark Tutelage it seems an enchantment would be far superior over a creature especially since you have things that benefit from having more enchantments.
I could be wrong but I think Dark Confidant is better than Dark Tutelage for two reasons. First as a creature it is easier to get rid of if his life goes to low and second he can hold a sword.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Vash summed it up well. Dark Confidant can carry swords, beat for 2, comes down early, and can be removed far easier than Dark Tutelage. That being said, if you don't have the money for Bob, I still believe that Tutelege is better than many people would think if your wanting a more budget option.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Flagstones of Trokair? Seems to be good in a deck that can destroys your own lands.
Ravages of War. Same card as Armageddon.
How has Cataclysm worked our for ya? Merciless Eviction?
Is Balance not good?
Flagstones is usually good.
Ravges is like $200 irl, sovits probably a price issue.
Balance is banned in edh.