I've seen a lot of Jhoira decks and been trying to make one that I like. Of course, most of them are pretty expensive so I've been trying to finish mine for awhile now.
I love the idea of the sneak attack, just wish I had the card lol
When I read through again if I notice any errors I'll let you know!
I put this list together last year and played it for a long while. Looking to put it back together, I always had trouble fending off players when being ganged up on, or holding players off for 4 turns while waiting on suspend.
Aside from that, this deck was a blast to play and very resilient.
You're not going to beat being ganged up on. If the aggro player only attacks you and the control player only counters and removes your things, you're going to lose. It doesn't really matter what deck you are playing.
Here in Melbourne, I've seen people play highly tuned Arcum Dagsson, Zur the Enchanter, Hermit Druid etc lists and none of them could survive once the meta adapted and people knew how to stop them.
You could change your list, for example run some more board wipes like Chain Reaction or Devastation Tide to help slow the game down. But if you sit down in a four player game, and the first thing they say is "You're playing THAT deck? Ok, kill him first", then you aren't going to win without a godhand.
The issue with her as the general is you are fighting a handicapped game before the game starts.
If you can't handled being Strip Mine locked from Azusa, Mind Twisted for max from the mono-black player and all your spells countered by the Oona player...don't play Jhoira.
If you aren't packing all the mana rocks, Timetwister effects - you will lose every game you are playing.
I saw a list from Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb, Crystal Vein, Izzet Signet, Grim Monolith, Basalth Monolith, Mindstone, Mox Opal, and Mox Diamond and Coalition Relic.
Along with Timetwister, Windfall, Wheel of Fortune for Draw 7's
Guess what? They lost because it was 3v1 every game. With all the mana rocks and draw 7's to disrupt their opponents, they could not stop 3 blue players taking down their combos.
Remember you play high profile general; don't complain when you lose on turn 2 or aren't allowed to play magic the entire night.
I'm not sure what you mean by handicapped game? You mean cause she's a good commander, you're going to get hate? Well I figure that's the same for any good commander. If you play Azusa or Oona, you can expect to get some hate. Unless you specifically say to people "I don't run Strip Mine combo in this Azusa deck". But in that case, you could just do the same thing with Jhoira. "I don't run MLD in this Jhoira deck." If Painter's Servant was legal, you'd have to say "I don't run Painter's Servant combo in this Oona deck."
I've seen Azusa decks get out a turn 3 Sylvan Primordial. And I've seen someone play Wake of Destruction targetting Forest. Its part of playing a powerful deck. And its why I like playing with the same people every week and why I like being open about what we want. Because you can have high powered games, and you can have people work on their threat assessment. And it makes cards like Bribery good when you know their decklists
Also this line, I agree completely.
Remember you play high profile general; don't complain when you lose on turn 2 or aren't allowed to play magic the entire night.
Playing this deck on MTGO gets you a lot of salty players but it's rewarding to survive all the hate. My own adjustments to the deck included removing remand in favor of counterspell and adding mana leak. I'm questioning mana leak's late game use and if I get a hold of mana drain I'll put that in instead. I cut creatures I couldn't afford at the time like Phyrexian Metamorph and I forget what else at the moment for more counterspells.
I saw that you added sneak attack in also MrTyx, still can't justify buying the card yet since I finished Reanimator in paper magic haha.
Thanks for the feedback. Its nice to hear how the deck fares in different environments.
I got a Sneak Attack right before the price hike. NM Judge Promo, AUD$50. I'm super happy about that
I used to play Stifle, but it just didn't do enough. I replaced it with Trickbind and then later cut it altogether. Occasionally it was amazing, most of the time it was just dead and I was using it on an ETB creature where I would have rather a counterspell / board wipe.
I also used to play Forbid, but without a draw engine its pretty lame. Its a better card in Azami, Lady of Scrolls, or Jhoira builds that are more centered around a single combo and so have lots of draw.
When you cut Remand for Counterspell, did you find you could cast it on turn 2? Because I've run into that often enough it made me want to play Remand.
I think Show and Tell is better if you are playing in a casual environment (casual card, $100...). Because it can backfire so hard. That or in a deck that isn't Jhoira. Maybe one with Black where you can make your opponents discard.
When you cut Remand for Counterspell, did you find you could cast it on turn 2? Because I've run into that often enough it made me want to play Remand.
The past six games I played I was able to have UU for about four games with a counterspell in my hand. Remand is certainly more flexible but I hate how that spell is still in your opponent's hand.
Show and Tell ended up backfiring on me a lot, I've had humility, moats, opposing eldrazi's, and an opposing omniscience dropped on the field from my opponents. On a 3v3 game a single prophet of kruphix my opponent dropped from a show and tell created such a huge advantage it was nuts.
I've already been blocked by one person because of the commander choice. For that I know this deck is great.
Hey guys. I had some ideas that would work well with Jhoira. I usually don't like having that many planeswalkers but what do you think about adding the likes of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, Jace, Architect of Thought, and Ral Zarek?
Also, since I don't have a lot of the more expensive cards I was thinking about tweaking the deck a little and adding possibly:[cardsParadox Haze[/card], Arc Blade, Reality Strobe, Timecrafting, and as someone else mentioned Rift Elemental.
Just looking for some thoughts on some of these cards. I like the synergy with the other cards in the deck. I should have my deck finished by the end of the week and I'll post what I'm playing with. Just need to play test through the hate that comes with Jhoira lol
Planeswalkers are weird in Jhoira. They are good because they survive your MLD, and so you can get some great value post-Decree of Annihilation. But they are also usually on curve and bad suspend targets. If you play Jhoira on 3 mana, untap on 4 mana, would you rather play a Jace, Architect of Thought or suspend 2 threats?
Also, some people have a hatred of planeswalkers so you usually only get one activation unless you have some sort of time magic or Evacuation. This is especially true with expensive planeswalkers like Jace, the Mind Sculptor because people just see "OP in 1v1 modern, therefore OP in edh".
So, break down each planeswalker by their abilities and compare them to the actual cards of those abilities and ask yourself if its worth it.
Dack being probably the best example here. His -2 is ridiculously good and its not susceptible to enchantment removal.
If you are getting multiple activations out of a planeswalker, then definitely play them because they are pure gas and basically better versions of enchantments. But otherwise, really look at what you are paying for and getting. Are you paying 3UU for a Tamiyo, that is just Borrowing 100,000 Arrows and a limited Fog?I wrote about Paradox Haze and you can read my thoughts on it if you want. I'm not a fan, never really got it to be OP. If were really starting to get value of it, chances are your opponents aren't stopping you and you could have just done whatever you wanted anyway.
Timecrafting is probably the best "remove timecounters" card, in my opinion anyway. Play it, its only an uncommon and it'll cost you 50c to playtest. Play it till it stops working, if it never stops working then awesome for you
I would make sure I include Fury Charm if I was including Timecrafting. Its basically a more versatile version of the same card because it can also be Shatter.
Play Rift Elemental if you want. Again, like Paradox Haze is good if you are setting up some sort of value engine but I find that its too slow, too easy to disrupt and too much of a dead draw mid game. Often times if you get two activations out of Rift Elemental for 2RRR you start to question wether you just wish he was Time Warp, which is 3UU.
If you play all these cards, you MUST play artifact hate for Eon Hub and creature hate for Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.Point is, if you have the planeswalkers, playtest them. And playtest the commons, it'll cost you basically nothing money wise. But if you want my opinion, a lot of them are too "cute" and too slow.
Does not playing Decree and Obliterate severely hurt the ability of this deck to win? My friends hate that I completely blow up everything so I am thinking of only playing weaker wipes like cyclonic rift.
Does not play Decree and Obliterate severely hurt the ability of this deck to win? My friends hate that I completely while everything so I am thinking of only playing weaker wipes like cyclonic rift.
Your sentences are hard to read and don't really make sense. What does "I completely while everything" mean?
Are you talking about the political aspect of people hating you for playing land destruction? No, I don't have that problem.
Sorry for the poor grammar. I am on my phone and with auto correct and not always being able to see what I type...yea
My friends hate decree of annihilation and Obliterate because of land destruction so on and so forth. It essentially ends the game for them and doesn't allow them to play magic. So what I am asking is, do I need those cards to be competitive? What are some friendly replacements?
You do need them to be competitive. If you want to have a competitive deck without mass land destruction than you are going to have a better time adding green and playing RUG colors. A "RUG ramp into fatties" deck such as Riku of Two Reflections or Maelstrom Wanderer is going to get them out faster than Jhoira and it will have lands in play. The mass land destruction in Jhoira decks is to slow your opponents down, and your friends don't like being slowed down.
You can house ban mass land destruction, and more power to you guys for making EDH want you want. But you'll be casual, not competitive.
as a competitive deck, what turn(s) do you usually win by?
I play a lot of 1v1 with this deck against my friends and the only thing that ever gave me problems was hyper aggro. Even still you can usually stabilize before they kill you.
Seems pretty solid. How does this deck fare in 1v1? Or againest something like removal.dec?
I don't play 1v1. I've done it a couple times with a friend's Kaalia deck, and it was hilariously fast. If I was I would play a lot more Electrolyze and Counterspell variants. There are some fun ones, like Jilt. I have nothing against it, I just don't see the point of 1v1 commander. There are plenty of other formats that are 1v1. Even 2HG is kind of 1v1. I like EDH multiplayer because politics
Against removal.dec, you can either rush an early Jhoira when you'll need to untap to suspend, or if you're scared of removal, cast Jhoira on 5 mana and suspend immediately. Depending on what kind of removal they are, and what you suspend, sometimes you just won't care what they are doing. For example, if you play against a Mogis, God of Slaughter deck that has land destruction, creature hate and artifact hate, and you get Omniscience suspended, you can sometimes just not care. But if you get Krosan Grip'd, that will blow you out.
Cards that are good versus removal decks are Leyline of Anticipation (play at end of turn) and Crucible of Worlds (gives you some prot against land hate) and Sneak Attack (sneak attack Eldrazi/Blightsteel, send them to the stone ages)
as a competitive deck, what turn(s) do you usually win by?
Not as fast as some other combo decks, like an Arcum deck that can win by turn 3. We have a guy who used to play an Arcum deck but he stopped because everyone adapted and plays low cost spot removal, and a well timed Nature's Claim can blow you out. And he'd have to go so all in that it would leave him neutered. And we have another guy who plays a Black White Ad Nauseam deck, but that deck is a lot more defensive now and so it doesn't go off as fast.
You can occasionally luck out an early Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite hand and just win on the spot. But if you keep that sort of hand you can get blown out easily by a Torpor Orb or Swords to Plowshares.
Probably the most consistently you can get an early win by is turn 6 (5-7ish), by having things suspended and hardcasting Obliterate. How fast you can win does depend on what you first suspend. If you suspend Omniscience and hardcast Obliterate, then you can usually dig and get a draw 7 into draw 7 going. Then if you get something like a Consecrated Sphinx into Time Spiral you draw your deck and win.
It does depend heavily on what your opponents are playing. I had a game recently where I was playing against a Borborygmos Enraged who had a godhand. Ramped, cast Wildfire, rebuilt with Oracle of Mul Daya. I was on three mana, and didn't cast Jhoira so I could Hinder his commander. But he saw it coming and just didn't cast Borb. So I left three mana up and he just outvalued me over the next couple turns, then killed the table.
If you play against a monoblue player, like Azami (we've got two Azami players), then you usually have to try and wait them out. Get some sort of value engine online. Unless you can get Leyline of Anticipation, then if they ever tap out you can usually get them with something. Which means if they never fully tap out, you just outvalue them. Akroma, Angel of Fury is in here for exactly this reason, dealing with monoblue players that spend the whole game with a hand full of counterspells, eyeing up your board.
Point is, it is hard to say. If you go too early, you'll spend too many resources.
I have read your commander deck list and I really want to make a jhoira commander deck. The thing is that I started mtg at the start of this year so I only have cards from theros and onwards. Is there any good cards that would fit in a jhoira edh deck?
I have read your commander deck list and I really want to make a jhoira commander deck. The thing is that I started mtg at the start of this year so I only have cards from theros and onwards. Is there any good cards that would fit in a jhoira edh deck?
Full disclosure, I don't play Standard. So if I miss anything, that's why.
You can build a reasonable Jhoira deck using only cards in Standard. The problem comes when you say "How do I win?" If you don't go for some sort of combo, then you are just trying to beat people to death. The best beaters (Eldrazi, Blightsteel or even just Inferno Titan) are all out of Standard. You could try and kill people with creatures like Tromokratis, but then you might just think, I should be playing Surrak and have access to all the green creatures like Hydra Broodmaster.
You can also make a fairly decent dragon tribal Jhoira using a lot of the dragons in Standard.
I'm going to include cards that have just rotated out of standard with Khan. I think if you do some binder hunting then you can snap up a bunch of these now that they are dropping in price.
> Beaters Stormtide Leviathan - This is your bread-and-butter "budget beater". It does everything you want. It beats, and it slows the game down to your budget pace. And it fixes your mana.
Utvara Hellkite - This is about the fastest "budget" clock you have that just rotated out of standard and so you might get one for cheap.
Spawn of Thraxes/Scourge of Fleets - If you play an almost all basics land base, you should consider these. They don't combo with MLD. They don't kill people quickly. But they are dollar rares that you might have, that don't have irrelevant abilities.
Arbiter of the Ideal - Value card. 4 damage is not much of a clock, which might be helpful so that people don't kill it. Generally though, cards like Future Sight are better for this.
Master of Predicaments - Maybe this works. Especially when people don't know your deck. You can also use it politically.
Soul of Shandalar - The "3RR: 3 to player and 3 to dude" is not irrelevant." It really is only 6 power on the table, but at least its got a mana sink.
Soul of New Phyrexia - Indestructible is super relevant versus some player's decks. Its not Avacyn, cause you have to keep mana open (that's the reason Bribery is better than this btw, just steal an Avacyn).
> Clone and Theft Clever Impersonator - This card is just bonkers. And if you can't afford money cards, just clone other peoples stuff.
Hellkite Tyrant - You'll never pull the wincon off, but at least you can steal some good artifacts. Remember that you gain control of them forever, not just until Hellkite Tyrant leaves play.
Stolen Identity - Again, if you can't afford money cards, try cloning them. Unfortunately, this gets outclassed by cards like Phyrexian Metamorph.
Zealous Conscripts - Combos with Kiki-Jiki but he's gotten really expensive lately because of Modern. Still, stealing a big beater and then hitting that player with it works. Especially if you play some sort of sac outlet. Eg, Greater Gargadon style deck, with Dominus of Fealty, Insurrection etc etc.
> Mana Springleaf Drum - You can tap Jhoira for mana with this since you are rarely going to be attacking with her. Its really only going to be good if you play a lot of Inspired dudes that are in Standard, "No good attacks, pass turn. End of your turn, tap my dude"
Chromatic Lantern - I'd try and pick one of these up. It lets you play a little bit more greedy on your mana base.
Izzet Cluestone - Its a common. If you need to make it to 99 and have a one...
> Draw Treasure Cruise - If you're playing a slower long game, then this is going to just be "U: Draw three". Maybe it's a nonbo if you are playing cards like Snapcaster Mage, but you said standard.
Mercurial Chemister - This guy is good in games that slow right down. As soon as you get more than two activations of his "U: Draw 2" then you are on route to value town. It is really going to depend on how fast the games you play are. And I'd probably only include him if you had one, I wouldn't be looking for him.
> Removal Cyclonic Rift - This card is blantantly unfair. You should play it.
Curse of the Swine - Really depends on what you are up against. If you playing against decks where "exile" is important then play this. In most cases though cards like Blasphemous Act are better.
Vandalblast - Really shines in games where people have mana rocks and greedy artifacts.
Rapid Hybridization - One mana answer to a lot of problem generals. There are better answers like Hinder, but this is a common.
> Combo Howl of the Horde - If you end up getting your hands on a card like Time Warp, I'd consider this. Its a good cheap dollar rare addition, and it does some unfair things. But I would really look at the number of instants/sorceries you are playing before I added it.
Firemind's Foresight - There are a lot of combos with this card. Remember that it is only instants though. The "instant win" is Reiterate, Reset and Lightning Bolt to win on next opponent's upkeep. But you can get plenty of value of this regardless, especially if you get a copy of Mystical Tutor. For example, you could easily cast it end of turn for a Mystical Tutor, Increasing Vengeance and any three CMC instant, and then Mystical Tutor for Temporal Mastery, copying it a bunch with Increasing Vegeance. But you only play it if you have the cards to support it.
Enter the Infinite/Omniscience - If you can pick up a copy of both of these, you can play them. Just be warned that once people catch on, they will try and deck you.
> Equipment Chariot of Victory - You really should be playing Lightning Greaves because it protects Jhoira and it enables your late game fatties to come crashing in on the turn you play them. However, its entirely possible that this card is good in a budget Jhoira deck. Especially if you are trying to make it up to 99. It gives you first strike and trample, which means that your big 6/6 dudes aren't getting chumped. But other than that, it doesn't do much, and its the same CMC as Jhoira which is awkward. So its worth a consider and might be an early addition and early replacement.
That's a good starting point. I'd be looking at building up to 99 with any of these cards, and then doing some trading for some of the big hitters from previous sets.
In celebration of finishing my undergrad loans/new job I decided to build the deck on paper and took it to the LGS. I tried to make the deck as powerful as I can. I removed Counterspell in favor of Mana Drain. Sneak Attack is pretty damn amazing. Your primer has helped a lot in the construction of this deck MrTyx.
Five players in this match:
Jhoira (me)
Narset some chaos thing with timesifter
Zurgo Helmsmasher, weenie aggro
Maralen some deck with a boat load of lands
Maralen some strange hybrid of ANT with tutors
The game went on so long we had to end the game prematurely since the shop was closing. But Mana Drain ended up helping knock someone out, the Narset player ended up show and telling Omniscience while everyone including me dropped a mana rock/land. He "hardcasts" a blightsteel and I Mana Drain it allowing me on my turn to cast an Ulamog. I knock out the durdly Maralen player since all he did the whole game was drop swamps and a Boseiju. I get killed by Maralen #2 as he did an Ad Nauseam at the end of a player's turn, dropped a boatload of 1-2 drop mana rocks and two ritual type spells so I take a Storm 17 Tendrils knocking me out. Then we eventually we lost track of who's turn was it due to timesifter. Around that time the store owner told us we had to pack up.
For once I failed to be the biggest target on the table, all the players seemed to go after the durdly Maralen.
I have read your guide on Jhoira and its a very good article to read, I really liked it. Its been like 10 years since you write this article and it still feels a very valid and actual deck.
With the presentation of Time Spiral Remastered, Jhoira has been seen in many change folders and being taken as a "meh" card-commander in my LGS, commanders like Kerr, Golos, Yuriko have become top commanders in EDH format, at least in my LGS. Especially, in my LGS, we have seen how black with demonic consultationand blue with Thassa's Oracle are the new tools to break tables, or alike combos with heavy control cards. I am new into this massive aggresive commander tables and, with my friends in kitchen tables, I was really good using Sephara, Sky's Blade with angels and tokens, but in the LGS my deck, 6/10 times, is just a goldfish deck. I dont know why Mono White is so weak in commander having so many stapples on it. jajaja
I was caught by the rage in the eyes of Jhoira as i see it in the folders and I tought in building a new deck that can help me survive and win in my LGS arround her. Now that 10 years have passed from your publication and we have seen more new expansions, some really good like Commander Legends, is it still valid and usefull to use Jhiora? Is her power still there? Have you made some changes to your deck or you moved to a better ones? Should I made the commander deck of her? Will i be able to at least be stand in a match with her?
I love the card art, i love the agro and potence of the deck, but the deck is quite expensive, so I would like to know your comments on the matter before taking a decission on bluid the deck. I though on starting with something "budget" and go from there. (if you know any budget list that keep your deck phillosphy it wold be great)
Also, I was shocked at reading that you do not include any time counter removers, it is the absolutly opposite everyone else says in internet, and your justification was very good, a mind blow. This was the best post of Jhiora in internet.
Please illuminate my path here with her rage,
I just made the account only to contact you, jaja
I've made a Jhoira deck over ten years ago and stopped playing. So when I started again last year I picked it up again and used this massive knowledge dump to upgrade my deck as much as I could without spending a small fortune.
Unfortunately I can't tell you which cards of the last few years are worthwhile to consider adding to the decklist. So if anyone has an idea, let me know
What I can say is that this deck holds up just fine. It's well rounded to defend your spot on the table and move the game forward. You have a lot of flexibility to respond to most situations. Getting a strong card suspended will put the focus on you. The politics of Commander shine here.
I haven't seen many decklists with Jhoira that seem better than the primer here. If there's anyone who does still play Jhoira, then let's try and get some new card ideas.
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I've seen a lot of Jhoira decks and been trying to make one that I like. Of course, most of them are pretty expensive so I've been trying to finish mine for awhile now.
I love the idea of the sneak attack, just wish I had the card lol
When I read through again if I notice any errors I'll let you know!
Aside from that, this deck was a blast to play and very resilient.
Here in Melbourne, I've seen people play highly tuned Arcum Dagsson, Zur the Enchanter, Hermit Druid etc lists and none of them could survive once the meta adapted and people knew how to stop them.
You could change your list, for example run some more board wipes like Chain Reaction or Devastation Tide to help slow the game down. But if you sit down in a four player game, and the first thing they say is "You're playing THAT deck? Ok, kill him first", then you aren't going to win without a godhand.
If you can't handled being Strip Mine locked from Azusa, Mind Twisted for max from the mono-black player and all your spells countered by the Oona player...don't play Jhoira.
If you aren't packing all the mana rocks, Timetwister effects - you will lose every game you are playing.
I saw a list from Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb, Crystal Vein, Izzet Signet, Grim Monolith, Basalth Monolith, Mindstone, Mox Opal, and Mox Diamond and Coalition Relic.
Along with Timetwister, Windfall, Wheel of Fortune for Draw 7's
Guess what? They lost because it was 3v1 every game. With all the mana rocks and draw 7's to disrupt their opponents, they could not stop 3 blue players taking down their combos.
Remember you play high profile general; don't complain when you lose on turn 2 or aren't allowed to play magic the entire night.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
I've seen Azusa decks get out a turn 3 Sylvan Primordial. And I've seen someone play Wake of Destruction targetting Forest. Its part of playing a powerful deck. And its why I like playing with the same people every week and why I like being open about what we want. Because you can have high powered games, and you can have people work on their threat assessment. And it makes cards like Bribery good when you know their decklists
Also this line, I agree completely.
Also of the list of fast mana, I play;
I saw that you added sneak attack in also MrTyx, still can't justify buying the card yet since I finished Reanimator in paper magic haha.
Cards on my consideration list:
Protection/Disruption
Mana Drain
Time Stop
Chain of Vapor
Stifle
Forbid
Shove stuff in
Sneak Attack
Through the Breach-I can only justify this with the Eldrazi/Blightsteel
Show and Tell
It's annoying being the most popular target in the room nine out of ten times so I keep looking at better ways to survive the hate.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
I got a Sneak Attack right before the price hike. NM Judge Promo, AUD$50. I'm super happy about that
I used to play Stifle, but it just didn't do enough. I replaced it with Trickbind and then later cut it altogether. Occasionally it was amazing, most of the time it was just dead and I was using it on an ETB creature where I would have rather a counterspell / board wipe.
I also used to play Forbid, but without a draw engine its pretty lame. Its a better card in Azami, Lady of Scrolls, or Jhoira builds that are more centered around a single combo and so have lots of draw.
When you cut Remand for Counterspell, did you find you could cast it on turn 2? Because I've run into that often enough it made me want to play Remand.
I think Show and Tell is better if you are playing in a casual environment (casual card, $100...). Because it can backfire so hard. That or in a deck that isn't Jhoira. Maybe one with Black where you can make your opponents discard.
The past six games I played I was able to have UU for about four games with a counterspell in my hand. Remand is certainly more flexible but I hate how that spell is still in your opponent's hand.
Show and Tell ended up backfiring on me a lot, I've had humility, moats, opposing eldrazi's, and an opposing omniscience dropped on the field from my opponents. On a 3v3 game a single prophet of kruphix my opponent dropped from a show and tell created such a huge advantage it was nuts.
I've already been blocked by one person because of the commander choice. For that I know this deck is great.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
Also, since I don't have a lot of the more expensive cards I was thinking about tweaking the deck a little and adding possibly:[cardsParadox Haze[/card], Arc Blade, Reality Strobe, Timecrafting, and as someone else mentioned Rift Elemental.
Just looking for some thoughts on some of these cards. I like the synergy with the other cards in the deck. I should have my deck finished by the end of the week and I'll post what I'm playing with. Just need to play test through the hate that comes with Jhoira lol
Also, some people have a hatred of planeswalkers so you usually only get one activation unless you have some sort of time magic or Evacuation. This is especially true with expensive planeswalkers like Jace, the Mind Sculptor because people just see "OP in 1v1 modern, therefore OP in edh".
So, break down each planeswalker by their abilities and compare them to the actual cards of those abilities and ask yourself if its worth it.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's -2 is Borrowing 100,000 Arrows, 3UU v 2U
Jace, Architect of Thought's -2 is a bad Fact or Fiction, 2UU v 3U
Ral Zarek's -2 is Lightning Bolt, 2UR v R
Compare that to some other planeswalkers
Tezzeret the Seeker's -X is a better Reshape, 3UU v XUU
Jace, the Mind Sculptor's -0 is Brainstorm, 2UU v U
Dack Fayden's -2 is a permanent Steal Artifact, 1UR v 2UU
Dack being probably the best example here. His -2 is ridiculously good and its not susceptible to enchantment removal.
If you are getting multiple activations out of a planeswalker, then definitely play them because they are pure gas and basically better versions of enchantments. But otherwise, really look at what you are paying for and getting. Are you paying 3UU for a Tamiyo, that is just Borrowing 100,000 Arrows and a limited Fog?
I wrote about Paradox Haze and you can read my thoughts on it if you want. I'm not a fan, never really got it to be OP. If were really starting to get value of it, chances are your opponents aren't stopping you and you could have just done whatever you wanted anyway.
Arc Blade and Reality Strobe are both really slow and overcosted. I would rather play Electrolyze than Arc Blade and I'd rather play Repulse, Cyclonic Rift, Wipe Away or even straight up Boomerang before Reality Strobe.
Timecrafting is probably the best "remove timecounters" card, in my opinion anyway. Play it, its only an uncommon and it'll cost you 50c to playtest. Play it till it stops working, if it never stops working then awesome for you
I would make sure I include Fury Charm if I was including Timecrafting. Its basically a more versatile version of the same card because it can also be Shatter.
Play Rift Elemental if you want. Again, like Paradox Haze is good if you are setting up some sort of value engine but I find that its too slow, too easy to disrupt and too much of a dead draw mid game. Often times if you get two activations out of Rift Elemental for 2RRR you start to question wether you just wish he was Time Warp, which is 3UU.
If you play all these cards, you MUST play artifact hate for Eon Hub and creature hate for Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
Point is, if you have the planeswalkers, playtest them. And playtest the commons, it'll cost you basically nothing money wise. But if you want my opinion, a lot of them are too "cute" and too slow.
Your sentences are hard to read and don't really make sense. What does "I completely while everything" mean?
Are you talking about the political aspect of people hating you for playing land destruction? No, I don't have that problem.
My friends hate decree of annihilation and Obliterate because of land destruction so on and so forth. It essentially ends the game for them and doesn't allow them to play magic. So what I am asking is, do I need those cards to be competitive? What are some friendly replacements?
You can house ban mass land destruction, and more power to you guys for making EDH want you want. But you'll be casual, not competitive.
I play a lot of 1v1 with this deck against my friends and the only thing that ever gave me problems was hyper aggro. Even still you can usually stabilize before they kill you.
I don't play 1v1. I've done it a couple times with a friend's Kaalia deck, and it was hilariously fast. If I was I would play a lot more Electrolyze and Counterspell variants. There are some fun ones, like Jilt. I have nothing against it, I just don't see the point of 1v1 commander. There are plenty of other formats that are 1v1. Even 2HG is kind of 1v1. I like EDH multiplayer because politics
Against removal.dec, you can either rush an early Jhoira when you'll need to untap to suspend, or if you're scared of removal, cast Jhoira on 5 mana and suspend immediately. Depending on what kind of removal they are, and what you suspend, sometimes you just won't care what they are doing. For example, if you play against a Mogis, God of Slaughter deck that has land destruction, creature hate and artifact hate, and you get Omniscience suspended, you can sometimes just not care. But if you get Krosan Grip'd, that will blow you out.
Cards that are good versus removal decks are Leyline of Anticipation (play at end of turn) and Crucible of Worlds (gives you some prot against land hate) and Sneak Attack (sneak attack Eldrazi/Blightsteel, send them to the stone ages)
Not as fast as some other combo decks, like an Arcum deck that can win by turn 3. We have a guy who used to play an Arcum deck but he stopped because everyone adapted and plays low cost spot removal, and a well timed Nature's Claim can blow you out. And he'd have to go so all in that it would leave him neutered. And we have another guy who plays a Black White Ad Nauseam deck, but that deck is a lot more defensive now and so it doesn't go off as fast.
You can occasionally luck out an early Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite hand and just win on the spot. But if you keep that sort of hand you can get blown out easily by a Torpor Orb or Swords to Plowshares.
Probably the most consistently you can get an early win by is turn 6 (5-7ish), by having things suspended and hardcasting Obliterate. How fast you can win does depend on what you first suspend. If you suspend Omniscience and hardcast Obliterate, then you can usually dig and get a draw 7 into draw 7 going. Then if you get something like a Consecrated Sphinx into Time Spiral you draw your deck and win.
It does depend heavily on what your opponents are playing. I had a game recently where I was playing against a Borborygmos Enraged who had a godhand. Ramped, cast Wildfire, rebuilt with Oracle of Mul Daya. I was on three mana, and didn't cast Jhoira so I could Hinder his commander. But he saw it coming and just didn't cast Borb. So I left three mana up and he just outvalued me over the next couple turns, then killed the table.
If you play against a monoblue player, like Azami (we've got two Azami players), then you usually have to try and wait them out. Get some sort of value engine online. Unless you can get Leyline of Anticipation, then if they ever tap out you can usually get them with something. Which means if they never fully tap out, you just outvalue them. Akroma, Angel of Fury is in here for exactly this reason, dealing with monoblue players that spend the whole game with a hand full of counterspells, eyeing up your board.
Point is, it is hard to say. If you go too early, you'll spend too many resources.
Full disclosure, I don't play Standard. So if I miss anything, that's why.
You can build a reasonable Jhoira deck using only cards in Standard. The problem comes when you say "How do I win?" If you don't go for some sort of combo, then you are just trying to beat people to death. The best beaters (Eldrazi, Blightsteel or even just Inferno Titan) are all out of Standard. You could try and kill people with creatures like Tromokratis, but then you might just think, I should be playing Surrak and have access to all the green creatures like Hydra Broodmaster.
I would go out and get a copy of Obliterate or Decree of Annihilation before I started building Jhoira.
You can also make a fairly decent dragon tribal Jhoira using a lot of the dragons in Standard.
I'm going to include cards that have just rotated out of standard with Khan. I think if you do some binder hunting then you can snap up a bunch of these now that they are dropping in price.
> Beaters
Stormtide Leviathan - This is your bread-and-butter "budget beater". It does everything you want. It beats, and it slows the game down to your budget pace. And it fixes your mana.
Utvara Hellkite - This is about the fastest "budget" clock you have that just rotated out of standard and so you might get one for cheap.
Spawn of Thraxes/Scourge of Fleets - If you play an almost all basics land base, you should consider these. They don't combo with MLD. They don't kill people quickly. But they are dollar rares that you might have, that don't have irrelevant abilities.
Arbiter of the Ideal - Value card. 4 damage is not much of a clock, which might be helpful so that people don't kill it. Generally though, cards like Future Sight are better for this.
Master of Predicaments - Maybe this works. Especially when people don't know your deck. You can also use it politically.
Soul of Shandalar - The "3RR: 3 to player and 3 to dude" is not irrelevant." It really is only 6 power on the table, but at least its got a mana sink.
Soul of New Phyrexia - Indestructible is super relevant versus some player's decks. Its not Avacyn, cause you have to keep mana open (that's the reason Bribery is better than this btw, just steal an Avacyn).
Diluvian Primordial/Molten Primordial - Value beaters who let you steal other people's things. Theft is always a good tactic when on a budget.
> Clone and Theft
Clever Impersonator - This card is just bonkers. And if you can't afford money cards, just clone other peoples stuff.
Hellkite Tyrant - You'll never pull the wincon off, but at least you can steal some good artifacts. Remember that you gain control of them forever, not just until Hellkite Tyrant leaves play.
Felhide Spiritbinder - Maybe. Its worth considering.
Stolen Identity - Again, if you can't afford money cards, try cloning them. Unfortunately, this gets outclassed by cards like Phyrexian Metamorph.
Zealous Conscripts - Combos with Kiki-Jiki but he's gotten really expensive lately because of Modern. Still, stealing a big beater and then hitting that player with it works. Especially if you play some sort of sac outlet. Eg, Greater Gargadon style deck, with Dominus of Fealty, Insurrection etc etc.
> Mana
Springleaf Drum - You can tap Jhoira for mana with this since you are rarely going to be attacking with her. Its really only going to be good if you play a lot of Inspired dudes that are in Standard, "No good attacks, pass turn. End of your turn, tap my dude"
Chromatic Lantern - I'd try and pick one of these up. It lets you play a little bit more greedy on your mana base.
Izzet Cluestone - Its a common. If you need to make it to 99 and have a one...
> Draw
Treasure Cruise - If you're playing a slower long game, then this is going to just be "U: Draw three". Maybe it's a nonbo if you are playing cards like Snapcaster Mage, but you said standard.
Keranos, God of Storms - Just value. Slow though.
Mercurial Chemister - This guy is good in games that slow right down. As soon as you get more than two activations of his "U: Draw 2" then you are on route to value town. It is really going to depend on how fast the games you play are. And I'd probably only include him if you had one, I wouldn't be looking for him.
> Removal
Cyclonic Rift - This card is blantantly unfair. You should play it.
Curse of the Swine - Really depends on what you are up against. If you playing against decks where "exile" is important then play this. In most cases though cards like Blasphemous Act are better.
Vandalblast - Really shines in games where people have mana rocks and greedy artifacts.
Rapid Hybridization - One mana answer to a lot of problem generals. There are better answers like Hinder, but this is a common.
> Combo
Howl of the Horde - If you end up getting your hands on a card like Time Warp, I'd consider this. Its a good cheap dollar rare addition, and it does some unfair things. But I would really look at the number of instants/sorceries you are playing before I added it.
Firemind's Foresight - There are a lot of combos with this card. Remember that it is only instants though. The "instant win" is Reiterate, Reset and Lightning Bolt to win on next opponent's upkeep. But you can get plenty of value of this regardless, especially if you get a copy of Mystical Tutor. For example, you could easily cast it end of turn for a Mystical Tutor, Increasing Vengeance and any three CMC instant, and then Mystical Tutor for Temporal Mastery, copying it a bunch with Increasing Vegeance. But you only play it if you have the cards to support it.
Enter the Infinite/Omniscience - If you can pick up a copy of both of these, you can play them. Just be warned that once people catch on, they will try and deck you.
> Equipment
Chariot of Victory - You really should be playing Lightning Greaves because it protects Jhoira and it enables your late game fatties to come crashing in on the turn you play them. However, its entirely possible that this card is good in a budget Jhoira deck. Especially if you are trying to make it up to 99. It gives you first strike and trample, which means that your big 6/6 dudes aren't getting chumped. But other than that, it doesn't do much, and its the same CMC as Jhoira which is awkward. So its worth a consider and might be an early addition and early replacement.
That's a good starting point. I'd be looking at building up to 99 with any of these cards, and then doing some trading for some of the big hitters from previous sets.
Creatures (15)
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellskite
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Pestermite
1 Trinket Mage
1 Archaeomancer
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Chancellor of the Spires
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Brainstorm
1 Mana Vault
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Swan Song
1 Vandalblast
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Fury Charm
1 Izzet Signet
1 Mana Drain
1 Mind Stone
1 Remand
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Crystal Shard
1 Dack Fayden
1 Hinder
1 Mimic Vat
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wipe Away
1 Cryptic Command
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Rite of Replication
1 Sneak Attack
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Acquire
1 Apocalypse
1 Bribery
1 Evacuation
1 Force of Will
1 Future Sight
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Warp
1 Treachery
1 Time Spiral
1 Obliterate
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Omniscience
1 Time Stretch
1 Arid Mesa
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Crystal Vein
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 High Market
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Remote Isle
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Shivan Reef
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Strip Mine
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Tolaria West
1 Volcanic Island
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
9 Island
1 Jhoira of the Ghitu
Five players in this match:
Jhoira (me)
Narset some chaos thing with timesifter
Zurgo Helmsmasher, weenie aggro
Maralen some deck with a boat load of lands
Maralen some strange hybrid of ANT with tutors
The game went on so long we had to end the game prematurely since the shop was closing. But Mana Drain ended up helping knock someone out, the Narset player ended up show and telling Omniscience while everyone including me dropped a mana rock/land. He "hardcasts" a blightsteel and I Mana Drain it allowing me on my turn to cast an Ulamog. I knock out the durdly Maralen player since all he did the whole game was drop swamps and a Boseiju. I get killed by Maralen #2 as he did an Ad Nauseam at the end of a player's turn, dropped a boatload of 1-2 drop mana rocks and two ritual type spells so I take a Storm 17 Tendrils knocking me out. Then we eventually we lost track of who's turn was it due to timesifter. Around that time the store owner told us we had to pack up.
For once I failed to be the biggest target on the table, all the players seemed to go after the durdly Maralen.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
I have read your guide on Jhoira and its a very good article to read, I really liked it. Its been like 10 years since you write this article and it still feels a very valid and actual deck.
With the presentation of Time Spiral Remastered, Jhoira has been seen in many change folders and being taken as a "meh" card-commander in my LGS, commanders like Kerr, Golos, Yuriko have become top commanders in EDH format, at least in my LGS. Especially, in my LGS, we have seen how black with demonic consultationand blue with Thassa's Oracle are the new tools to break tables, or alike combos with heavy control cards. I am new into this massive aggresive commander tables and, with my friends in kitchen tables, I was really good using Sephara, Sky's Blade with angels and tokens, but in the LGS my deck, 6/10 times, is just a goldfish deck. I dont know why Mono White is so weak in commander having so many stapples on it. jajaja
I was caught by the rage in the eyes of Jhoira as i see it in the folders and I tought in building a new deck that can help me survive and win in my LGS arround her. Now that 10 years have passed from your publication and we have seen more new expansions, some really good like Commander Legends, is it still valid and usefull to use Jhiora? Is her power still there? Have you made some changes to your deck or you moved to a better ones? Should I made the commander deck of her? Will i be able to at least be stand in a match with her?
I love the card art, i love the agro and potence of the deck, but the deck is quite expensive, so I would like to know your comments on the matter before taking a decission on bluid the deck. I though on starting with something "budget" and go from there. (if you know any budget list that keep your deck phillosphy it wold be great)
Also, I was shocked at reading that you do not include any time counter removers, it is the absolutly opposite everyone else says in internet, and your justification was very good, a mind blow. This was the best post of Jhiora in internet.
Please illuminate my path here with her rage,
I just made the account only to contact you, jaja
Grettings from Costa Rica!!
Pura vida!
I've made a Jhoira deck over ten years ago and stopped playing. So when I started again last year I picked it up again and used this massive knowledge dump to upgrade my deck as much as I could without spending a small fortune.
Unfortunately I can't tell you which cards of the last few years are worthwhile to consider adding to the decklist. So if anyone has an idea, let me know
What I can say is that this deck holds up just fine. It's well rounded to defend your spot on the table and move the game forward. You have a lot of flexibility to respond to most situations. Getting a strong card suspended will put the focus on you. The politics of Commander shine here.
I haven't seen many decklists with Jhoira that seem better than the primer here. If there's anyone who does still play Jhoira, then let's try and get some new card ideas.