With just Chainer and this guy, you already have devotion 4. Anything else and this guy is as fast, or faster than koko...
Er well, he isn't my general so I have him out less. I'm still going to run that card, at least for testing. I'm just thinking about how tight my list is.
Fair Point, it's a bit harder for XHD to be around for his Devotion, even so, black has a lot of color-heavy enchantments to fuel the devotion, as well as self-recuring creatures that tend to just be there a lot.
Rescue from the Underworld : Liking the Sac outlet and then utilizing 1 or 2 ETB effects... What's your thought on this one?
Erebos, God of the Dead: Was really into this card at first, but not to sure lately. I do like the indestructible part... And the card draw is nice as long as my life total is steady.
Abhorrent Overlord: A little expensive, but I am liking the Harpy tokens! Might be more of a "fun" card that I play for a while and then remove when I find out it's not so good... But with Chainer and a sac outlet, that could be a lot of Harpies!
Hero's Downfall. Great removal for Chainer? Previously, I only had Karn or Vampire Hexmage to deal with Walkers...
Opinions?
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The whip is pretty darn sexy. Mass lifegain is quite welcome for Chainer, and the back-up reanimation may help in a pinch.
Erebos is cool as a reanimatable CA engine, though more life payments make me queasy =P
Hero's Kill thingy as a murder upgrade is nice, or simply as an addition. I need to run more instant removal already, so this may push me to finally rebalance my deck.
Archetype! - meh. Deathtouch is nice, but our wall of blockers is already whatever we want it to be. Ok, but doesn't impress.
Asphyxiate - cool name, terrible card. Sure, not everything can be Murder, but this is a bit silly at how much this pales in comparison.
Bile Blight - improved Echoing Decay, decent anti-token tech, and can kill some threatening utility Generals. Not my first choice of removal additions, but not a bad one either.
Champion of Stray Souls - Bomby effect, but I expect it to be a trap. Does nice things with Tokenmaker of Ulamog, but it's likely too slow to really do much of anything.
Fate Unraveler - 3/4 for 4 is actually not bad. The stapled Underworld Dreams on it makes it a nice hatebear to drag out and combat crazy card draw. I like the hag.
Fated Return - 7 is a lot. Around this cost, you start to wonder why you aren't getting a Rise of the Dark Realms. Instant speed is big, holding 7 mana isn't much of an issue for Chainer, since that's just a hair over double rez on its own. Nabbing a big thing and making it indestructible is pretty sweet. Letting Chainer GY to removal, and then nabbing him back as indestructible is also pretty sweet. Cost is high, but it's a threat to be reckoned.
Gild - Sever the Bloodline has it beat. Sure, black doesn't have much exile, but better anti-token, plus flashback, plus not giving an opponent an advantage has it beat, other than flavor. You have to admit, turning a fatty lategame into a lotus petal has all sorts of backhanded insult written all over it.
Pain Seer - I like bob. I'll like this guy too, I'm sure. It's probably not for this deck though, since we don't attack into things much.
Sanguimancy - Black card draw is pretty reliable. At this cost it competes with Promise of Power, but as I've hit devotion of over 15 before, I have no immediate issues with this card. And considering blacks amount of self-resurrecting cards, and high colored-costs, it shouldn't whiff badly, even if you are behind.
Servant of Tymaret - The interesting thing here is that the regen ability is kind of a self-tapping ability. Way too weak for this deck, but it could make a decent blocker with the threat of Subversion.
Astral Cornucopia - Make big mana, get big mana. Not abusing the artifact untapping much here, but I like big mana.
Looking into putting together a Chainer list and had a quick question: Does Gray Merchant of Asphodel eliminate the need for Kokusho except as a backup to GMoA? If you made a checklist of the top 10-20 cards that were the most essential to your list, does the dragon make the list?
Looking into putting together a Chainer list and had a quick question: Does Gray Merchant of Asphodel eliminate the need for Kokusho except as a backup to GMoA? If you made a checklist of the top 10-20 cards that were the most essential to your list, does the dragon make the list?
I still run Kokopuffs, but yeah it's become pretty much a backup to Gary. I'd likely never tutor for Kokusho before Gray Merchant, but I've chosen to include both in case one of them gets exiled. It also makes it that much more likely to draw into the effect, as opposed to having to tutor for it.
To answer your question, though, I'd say Kokusho is somewhere between #30-50 (out of the 99) on a list of Chainer cards by importance. Before the emergence of Gray Merchant, however, Kokusho was *much* higher on that list. Unfortunately for Kokusho, Gary simply outclasses it 90% of the time for our purposes.
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EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
I like the resiliency it has and the controlling feel. But I have a hard time with Combo. I would like to keep it Fair and Powerful. I don't like INFINITE Combos (extreme synergy is ok tho) and I will not mess with whole mana bases (a single target is ok tho).
I might cut Kokusho because of her price is more than the cost of the other cards I would order combined. If I take the deck to the LGS I can probably borrow my buddy's copy. Liliana of the Dark Realms seems like a more attractive option if I'm gonna splurge on cards. Any feedback, insults, or commentary are appreciated! I am not trying to make it crazy cutthroat (yet), my priority is to have a deck that can reliably have an impact on games. I hate durdling around and not doing big things.
I'm building Chainer and this is what I have so far. Any Suggestions??
I'll start off by saying that Gray Merchant of Asphodel *absolutely* deserves a spot in your deck. As mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, Gary is much faster than Kokusho a good majority of the time. I'd recommend cutting Greel, Mind Raker to make room for Gary, since they both cost 3BB. I'd also add Mindslicer as anti-wrath tech when you need it. Between Baleful Force, Myojin of Night's Reach, Pestilence Demon, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, as well as a handful of 6-drops, you have a pretty saturated top-end; maybe you can pick one of those to cut out to make room for Mindslicer. I know the plan is to get your fatties in the GY to reanimate with Chainer, but that plan doesn't always pan out. Chainer's got quite a reputation for graveyard shenanigans ;). Finally, Barter In Blood seems a bit underwhelming. You may be better off with Dictate of Erebos and/or Grave Pact instead, but if you add one or both of those you might need a couple more sacrifice outlets.
I think between Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Rune-Scarred Demon and Corpse Connoisseur you have enough tutoring capacity, and you could use those slots for more sac outlets, attrition cards, mana rocks, or land grabbers, perhaps from the following list of...
I might cut Kokusho because of her price is more than the cost of the other cards I would order combined. If I take the deck to the LGS I can probably borrow my buddy's copy. Liliana of the Dark Realms seems like a more attractive option if I'm gonna splurge on cards. Any feedback, insults, or commentary are appreciated! I am not trying to make it crazy cutthroat (yet), my priority is to have a deck that can reliably have an impact on games. I hate durdling around and not doing big things.
If you don't already have access to Kokusho, then by all means cut her from the decklist. If anything, you can trade for a copy later and make room for it then :). She's definitely not necessary now that we have Gary, and I would agree that Liliana of the Dark Realms is a more attractive option if you're looking to stay within a specific budget.
Looking over your list, I'd probably suggest several cards that I've listed earlier in this post in response to AhdamSmashr, but in particular I'd say that you should try to pick up a copy of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth while they're still on the cheap. The card was almost $35 before it was reprinted in M15, so you should be sure to get one for yourself sometime in the near future. Phyrexian Arena should also be on your radar. Also, consider adding Bojuka Bog. I tried to tutor for it recently in a game to exile an opposing Torpor Orb before its owner could recur it (having gone to great lengths to destroy it in the first place), but was dismayed when I discovered that I'd taken the Bog out of my deck for some silly reason. It almost cost me the game ;).
A final note on the importance of Journeyer's Kite: I urge you not to underestimate being able to tutor for a swamp every turn. A savvy shop owner once told me jokingly, "if you're playing mono-black and you're not dropping a land EVERY TURN, you're doing it wrong." He couldn't have been more right. Kite is the perfect piece of redundancy for Liliana of the Dark Realms.
I might think of some suggestions sometime down the line but other than that, both of your lists look fun to play, and I hope my suggestions have given you some ideas!
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EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Thanks for the suggestions and feedback. You inspired me to bite the bullet and get an Urborg. Should be fabulous to shift around to all my decks than run Coffers. Bog is a good idea and I'll add that too. Once my order arrives I'll post an updated list and how it fares. I'll get to work on getting those tutors eventually.
I'm building Chainer and this is what I have so far. Any Suggestions??
I'm happy to see you running more instants. It's definitely something I need to do to mine, but never seem to pull the trigger. My favorites are Tragic Slip, Sudden Death, Imp's Mischief and Undying Evil. Each of them provides insane value for their cost. I'm less of a fan of [c}Victim of Night[/c], but YMMV.
I'll reiterate what spentbullets said, and say as well that Gray Merchant of Asphodel is an insane powerhouse of a card. My deck is built around the combo loop at this time, but even if yours isn't it's hard to have a good reason to exclude merchant. He's often time a 9+ life drain, which can easily make him a 40+ life point swing alone, fueling reanimation all by himself.
I think Barther in Blood can be a fine board wipe, most often the field won't be too saturated with creatures, but it does tend to be rather ineffective against token hordes. For hard wraths for that spot, I would suggest either Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Nevy's Disk I've never liked so much simply because it takes forever to get online. It is tutorable with Dimir House Guard though... so... eh?
The biggest card I can recommend for any deck is Rings of Brighthearth. With fetches being 'cheaper' now, it makes it an even more potent investment.
I'm building Chainer and this is what I have so far. Any Suggestions??
I'll start off by saying that Gray Merchant of Asphodel *absolutely* deserves a spot in your deck. As mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, Gary is much faster than Kokusho a good majority of the time. I'd recommend cutting Greel, Mind Raker to make room for Gary, since they both cost 3BB. I'd also add Mindslicer as anti-wrath tech when you need it. Between Baleful Force, Myojin of Night's Reach, Pestilence Demon, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, as well as a handful of 6-drops, you have a pretty saturated top-end; maybe you can pick one of those to cut out to make room for Mindslicer. I know the plan is to get your fatties in the GY to reanimate with Chainer, but that plan doesn't always pan out. Chainer's got quite a reputation for graveyard shenanigans ;). Finally, Barter In Blood seems a bit underwhelming. You may be better off with Dictate of Erebos and/or Grave Pact instead, but if you add one or both of those you might need a couple more sacrifice outlets.
I think between Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Rune-Scarred Demon and Corpse Connoisseur you have enough tutoring capacity, and you could use those slots for more sac outlets, attrition cards, mana rocks, or land grabbers, perhaps from the following list of...
Awesome response. I was unsure of Gary in the list due to not being extremely high on the black creature and enchantment count, however after looking at it, He does seem quite strong and I feel like both KoKo and Gary should go in list. I do also like Attrition as both a sac and control source.
Greel, Mind Raker (LOL) is a pet card I have in there just to use something kind of obscure that looks fun to me, and you should hear the blue players moan when he resolves! So many tears... Aside from that, I think he is a more fair version of a Mind Twist, I ran Twist for a few months and it just shut people down, to the point of being un-fun. At least with Greel, you see it coming. I know Myojin of Night's Reach is in my deck for mass discard, but he also can serve other purposes. Usually I only nuke their hands if then mess with him or me. Mind Twist only does one thing or rots in your hand.
Dimir House Guard is something I am trying out as tech. He is a tutor and a sac outlet in one card, depending on mode I need it for. He fetches:
Beseech the Queen is surprisingly good! It acts just like a Demonic Tutor 90% of the time because it is foolish to tutor for anything you do not have the mana base for. I would definitely drop Diabolic Tutor before this one.
I'm building Chainer and this is what I have so far. Any Suggestions??
I'm happy to see you running more instants. It's definitely something I need to do to mine, but never seem to pull the trigger. My favorites are Tragic Slip, Sudden Death, Imp's Mischief and Undying Evil. Each of them provides insane value for their cost. I'm less of a fan of [c}Victim of Night[/c], but YMMV.
I'll reiterate what spentbullets said, and say as well that Gray Merchant of Asphodel is an insane powerhouse of a card. My deck is built around the combo loop at this time, but even if yours isn't it's hard to have a good reason to exclude merchant. He's often time a 9+ life drain, which can easily make him a 40+ life point swing alone, fueling reanimation all by himself.
I think Barther in Blood can be a fine board wipe, most often the field won't be too saturated with creatures, but it does tend to be rather ineffective against token hordes. For hard wraths for that spot, I would suggest either Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Nevy's Disk I've never liked so much simply because it takes forever to get online. It is tutorable with Dimir House Guard though... so... eh?
The biggest card I can recommend for any deck is Rings of Brighthearth. With fetches being 'cheaper' now, it makes it an even more potent investment.
Thanks for the reply.
I love Tragic Slip! It totally skipped my mind! Blightsteel Colossus? Banana Peel! Laughs ensue.. I like it! -GfTT +Slippage.
Rings of Brighthearth looks very powerful. I may have to get one. But am unsure if my meta is ready for 6 Gary triggers on the stack lol.
Also earlier someone mentioned Whip of Erebos. I really like that idea also. Whip + Pestilence Demon would be totally sweet.
You bring up some good points I had questions about:
My Main goal, other then winning, is to be controlish with enough punch to control 2 or 3 people and enough defense to defend against 2 or 3 people. While wrecking other blue based control strategies and Combo, hence the board sweepers and hand disruption. All pretty fair with looking to win around Mid/Late game. I do want my playgroup to actually PLAY magic for 10-15 rounds. Therefore, for me, No mass land disruption (AkA Contamination) and no Infinite Combos (Nim's Deathmantle + Grave Titan + Ashnod's Alter = Infinite Mana). It is intentional I left out those Peices as I feel Combo is bad for the Meta and No Fun. Pretty standard huh? SO...
Am I running too many sweepers? The deck has 8 Sweepers + 4 Tutors for them = 12? Should I cut 1 or 2 and run something more Proactive on the board?
Am I running too many Tutors? Really I have 9 Tutor sources with 2 being reusable. Same as Above...
Do I need more Silver Bullets?
How does my Mana Look? Am I land light with 35 (Maze and Stripmine are not lands lol)? I have 10 cards that fetch/ramp but should we consider things like Temple of the False God and Forbidden Tomb for ramp?
What do you guys think of the Balance between Control and Recursion? Should Recursion be a back up to Control/Good Stuff or should the Control just enable the Recursion Engine? Is this question too nebulous?? LOL..
Rings of Brighthearth looks very powerful. I may have to get one. But am unsure if my meta is ready for 6 Gary triggers on the stack lol.
Just to make sure you're reading it right, the rings copies an activated ability (and only once per activation), while grey merchant is a triggered ability, so they do not directly interact.
However, there is still a lot in the deck for the rings to trigger on. For me, the biggest use is fetchlands/Thawing Glaciers to really get the mana ramp going faster; followed by transmute off of the Dimir House Guard or transfigure from... that other guy. Chainer's ability doesn't gain as much from copying, but it ends up costing 1 less for a second creature, and doesn't cost you life. Copying Xiahou Dun's ability lets him return himself so you have a 6 mana buyback Regrowth. Liliana/Karn abilities are always powerful to copy, trading post, etc.
In your deck, Greel and Arcbound Reclaimer would both be potent abilities to copy.
Am I running too many sweepers? The deck has 8 Sweepers + 4 Tutors for them = 12? Should I cut 1 or 2 and run something more Proactive on the board?
Am I running too many Tutors? Really I have 9 Tutor sources with 2 being reusable. Same as Above...
Do I need more Silver Bullets?
How does my Mana Look? Am I land light with 35 (Maze and Stripmine are not lands lol)? I have 10 cards that fetch/ramp but should we consider things like Temple of the False God and Forbidden Tomb for ramp?
What do you guys think of the Balance between Control and Recursion? Should Recursion be a back up to Control/Good Stuff or should the Control just enable the Recursion Engine? Is this question too nebulous?? LOL..
These questions will always be very meta dependent. I only really run 2 sweepers in my deck, but I repeatedly reanimate them, and haven't run into too huge issues with them getting exiled yet. Also, I run Fleshbag Marauder and the two other versions of him, which do serious work when reanimated by chainer.
9 tutors seems high to me, I run 3 + transmute + transfigure + 1 'to graveyard'. So I guess I run 6. It really depends on the consistency vs cost you want to have. Tutors give you greater consistency, but it's a tax to pay the cost of the tutor. I will likely replace one of my tutors with Sidisi when she comes out.
Silver bullets will depend on your meta and what you face. I prefer being generally ready than to having answers to specific threats, unless those threats are generally a weakness of my deck (In mono green, I run a lot of "destroy flying thing" cards, because the deck has a large weakness to flyers).
I haven't looked at my land count in depth recently, but there are two important questions: Do you have enough mana to get you started in the early game, and do you have enough card draw going after that to not ever miss a land drop? Did you mean Ancient Tomb? I like my mana doublers, so I generally prefer swamps over the others that tap for a generic 2.
My deck currently feels like its just card draw, ramp, and reanimating removal until I find the combo.
I haven't updated the deck in a while (it's not a favored opponent for my group right now, so I run it out less frequently). Black Sidisi is waiting to sidle on in, as well as the new BFZ goodies in Zulaport, Smothering Abomination, and Vampiric Rites.
So. I finally played a game again with this deck last night, as due to a mis-communication of power level of an FNM, I brought Chainer to bear.
Chainer vs. Horobi, Kemba, Ezuri
Despite a slightly slow start, with a hand emptying out quite quickly, (but some good artifact ramp in place), an Early Chainer (hope to grab something from an opposing GY to jump start the low card situation), gets picked off due to a Horobi.
I finally get a Dark Prophecy and Bitterblossom in hand, but Horobi has a Dingus Staff which makes things quite painful, as he dropped it shortly after I dropped a Spawning Pit. Ah well, I drop a Caged Sun on black, drop both, and pass. Horobi moves to kill my stuff, so I eat up a lot of life to get some cards and pass, but on the end of the turn rotation, I used my Oblivion Stone, not to explode (as others assumed I would), but instead to 'fate counter' Horobi. Then on my turn I pop off the Dingus Staff with my Unstable Obelisk. My Smothering Abomination gets picked off by the Horobi player, but I respond by saccing my board to draw a lot of cards.
A Gray Merchant of Asphodel gives me a needed pick-me up, and some Falkenrath Noble and Disciple of Bolas help boost me up more. With everyone around 20ish, and myself at a comfortable 50, I move into the next turn with a Chainer, and reanimate the Gray Merchant, but get met with a Sudden Spoiling, which stops the reanimation at least, but still puts everyone into the low 10's. I'm tempted to Yawgmoth's Will and recast him, but am worried that Ezuri had a counterspell up (he did), and a well timed counter in that would exile my Gray Merchant. So I drop some extra useless stuff, and pass, and reanimate Gray Merchant on the upkeep for the kill, though Horobi and Kemba kill off enough devotion that Horobi lives at 1 life. With no way to stop the combo though, he scoops.
FYi, prior to that last game, some changes occurred in the decklist (although I think many more are missing - e.g. Smothering Abomination is in the deck - maybe it replaced Harvester of souls? audit incoming)
Further planned changes:
Examine current mana situation - add some sources of 'Any color' due to rule 4 removal. Maybe we'll rez something we want to use.
Also examine mana for colorless production - Mirrorpool looks like a valuable add.
Need to see if Thespian's Stage ever made it in. More coffer = more fun.
Finally got around to given the OP decklist a much needed refresh. Many cards have come in over the sets, including Sidisi, Undead Vizier, which gives us the best reanimatable tutor to date.
Set review time!
Shadows Over Innistrad
Overall, not a very great or high-profile set for us, but here we go:
Black
Asylum Visitor could be a cute 'combo' with Mindslicer, but would turn on too rarely for me. If the deck were to be build on a more discard heavy control theme though, this guy could shine.
Relentless Dead would require a zombie count on the deck to judge the usefulness, but any creature that returns itself is worth a mention, and any creature that returns another one is also worth a mention, making this guy worth at least two mentions.
Triskaidekaphobia - because it's fun, and no one would ever expect it.
Land
Drownyard Temple - Not the best deck to abuse this, but if we can get it into the graveyard, it could act as a small form of ramp. Not the most impressive use of it though.
Westvale Abbey - Though we can't resurrect him, Ormendahl, Profane Prince is quite a threat, and the lifelink can help offset our life payments. The land acting as a sac outlet could be a large boon to protect Chainer's resurrections from exile, as well as a good threat to activate when facing a wrath (thanks to the indestructible).
Er well, he isn't my general so I have him out less. I'm still going to run that card, at least for testing. I'm just thinking about how tight my list is.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Myself...
Gray Merchant of Asphodel: A shoe-in, this guy will be crazy good!
Rescue from the Underworld : Liking the Sac outlet and then utilizing 1 or 2 ETB effects... What's your thought on this one?
Erebos, God of the Dead: Was really into this card at first, but not to sure lately. I do like the indestructible part... And the card draw is nice as long as my life total is steady.
Abhorrent Overlord: A little expensive, but I am liking the Harpy tokens! Might be more of a "fun" card that I play for a while and then remove when I find out it's not so good... But with Chainer and a sac outlet, that could be a lot of Harpies!
Hero's Downfall. Great removal for Chainer? Previously, I only had Karn or Vampire Hexmage to deal with Walkers...
Opinions?
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
I still need help with mine though :/
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
Erebos is cool as a reanimatable CA engine, though more life payments make me queasy =P
Hero's Kill thingy as a murder upgrade is nice, or simply as an addition. I need to run more instant removal already, so this may push me to finally rebalance my deck.
Grey Merchant is looking quite good. Quite. Good.
Sup?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
Archetype! - meh. Deathtouch is nice, but our wall of blockers is already whatever we want it to be. Ok, but doesn't impress.
Asphyxiate - cool name, terrible card. Sure, not everything can be Murder, but this is a bit silly at how much this pales in comparison.
Bile Blight - improved Echoing Decay, decent anti-token tech, and can kill some threatening utility Generals. Not my first choice of removal additions, but not a bad one either.
Champion of Stray Souls - Bomby effect, but I expect it to be a trap. Does nice things with Tokenmaker of Ulamog, but it's likely too slow to really do much of anything.
Fate Unraveler - 3/4 for 4 is actually not bad. The stapled Underworld Dreams on it makes it a nice hatebear to drag out and combat crazy card draw. I like the hag.
Fated Return - 7 is a lot. Around this cost, you start to wonder why you aren't getting a Rise of the Dark Realms. Instant speed is big, holding 7 mana isn't much of an issue for Chainer, since that's just a hair over double rez on its own. Nabbing a big thing and making it indestructible is pretty sweet. Letting Chainer GY to removal, and then nabbing him back as indestructible is also pretty sweet. Cost is high, but it's a threat to be reckoned.
Gild - Sever the Bloodline has it beat. Sure, black doesn't have much exile, but better anti-token, plus flashback, plus not giving an opponent an advantage has it beat, other than flavor. You have to admit, turning a fatty lategame into a lotus petal has all sorts of backhanded insult written all over it.
Pain Seer - I like bob. I'll like this guy too, I'm sure. It's probably not for this deck though, since we don't attack into things much.
Sanguimancy - Black card draw is pretty reliable. At this cost it competes with Promise of Power, but as I've hit devotion of over 15 before, I have no immediate issues with this card. And considering blacks amount of self-resurrecting cards, and high colored-costs, it shouldn't whiff badly, even if you are behind.
Servant of Tymaret - The interesting thing here is that the regen ability is kind of a self-tapping ability. Way too weak for this deck, but it could make a decent blocker with the threat of Subversion.
Astral Cornucopia - Make big mana, get big mana. Not abusing the artifact untapping much here, but I like big mana.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I still run Kokopuffs, but yeah it's become pretty much a backup to Gary. I'd likely never tutor for Kokusho before Gray Merchant, but I've chosen to include both in case one of them gets exiled. It also makes it that much more likely to draw into the effect, as opposed to having to tutor for it.
To answer your question, though, I'd say Kokusho is somewhere between #30-50 (out of the 99) on a list of Chainer cards by importance. Before the emergence of Gray Merchant, however, Kokusho was *much* higher on that list. Unfortunately for Kokusho, Gary simply outclasses it 90% of the time for our purposes.
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
1x Arcbound Reclaimer
1x Baleful Force
1x Burnished Hart
1x Chainer, Dementia Master
1x Corpse Connoisseur
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Dimir House Guard
1x Duplicant
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Grave Titan
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Greel, Mind Raker
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Nezumi Graverobber
1x Nirkana Revenant
1x Pestilence Demon
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Shriekmaw
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker (4)
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Dark Realms
1x Liliana Vess
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Armillary Sphere
1x Expedition Map
1x Gauntlet of Power
1x Helm of Possession
1x Jet Medallion
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mind Stone
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Perilous Vault
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Sol Ring
1x Venser's Journal
1x Worn Powerstone
Enchantment (5)
1x Exquisite Blood
1x Necropotence
1x No Mercy
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Underworld Connections
Instant (4)
1x Go for the Throat
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Victim of Night
Sorcery (13)
1x Ashes to Ashes
1x Barter in Blood
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Buried Alive
1x Damnation
1x Decree of Pain
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Exsanguinate
1x Life's Finale
1x Mutilate
1x Promise of Power
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Deserted Temple
1x Dust Bowl
1x High Market
1x Maze of Ith
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Strip Mine
25x Swamp
1x Thawing Glaciers
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
I like the resiliency it has and the controlling feel. But I have a hard time with Combo. I would like to keep it Fair and Powerful. I don't like INFINITE Combos (extreme synergy is ok tho) and I will not mess with whole mana bases (a single target is ok tho).
Decklist
I might cut Kokusho because of her price is more than the cost of the other cards I would order combined. If I take the deck to the LGS I can probably borrow my buddy's copy. Liliana of the Dark Realms seems like a more attractive option if I'm gonna splurge on cards. Any feedback, insults, or commentary are appreciated! I am not trying to make it crazy cutthroat (yet), my priority is to have a deck that can reliably have an impact on games. I hate durdling around and not doing big things.
Other cards I'm not 100% on:
- Dimir House Guard
- Beseech the Queen
- Diabolic Tutor
- Promise of Power
- Liliana Vess
I think between Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Rune-Scarred Demon and Corpse Connoisseur you have enough tutoring capacity, and you could use those slots for more sac outlets, attrition cards, mana rocks, or land grabbers, perhaps from the following list of...Miscellaneous Suggestions:
- Viscera Seer
- Carrion Feeder
- Attrition
- Ashnod's Altar
- Journeyer's Kite
- Wayfarerer's Bauble
- Fellwar Stone
- Terrain Generator
If you don't already have access to Kokusho, then by all means cut her from the decklist. If anything, you can trade for a copy later and make room for it then :). She's definitely not necessary now that we have Gary, and I would agree that Liliana of the Dark Realms is a more attractive option if you're looking to stay within a specific budget.Looking over your list, I'd probably suggest several cards that I've listed earlier in this post in response to AhdamSmashr, but in particular I'd say that you should try to pick up a copy of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth while they're still on the cheap. The card was almost $35 before it was reprinted in M15, so you should be sure to get one for yourself sometime in the near future. Phyrexian Arena should also be on your radar. Also, consider adding Bojuka Bog. I tried to tutor for it recently in a game to exile an opposing Torpor Orb before its owner could recur it (having gone to great lengths to destroy it in the first place), but was dismayed when I discovered that I'd taken the Bog out of my deck for some silly reason. It almost cost me the game ;).
A final note on the importance of Journeyer's Kite: I urge you not to underestimate being able to tutor for a swamp every turn. A savvy shop owner once told me jokingly, "if you're playing mono-black and you're not dropping a land EVERY TURN, you're doing it wrong." He couldn't have been more right. Kite is the perfect piece of redundancy for Liliana of the Dark Realms.
I might think of some suggestions sometime down the line but other than that, both of your lists look fun to play, and I hope my suggestions have given you some ideas!
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
I'll reiterate what spentbullets said, and say as well that Gray Merchant of Asphodel is an insane powerhouse of a card. My deck is built around the combo loop at this time, but even if yours isn't it's hard to have a good reason to exclude merchant. He's often time a 9+ life drain, which can easily make him a 40+ life point swing alone, fueling reanimation all by himself.
I think Barther in Blood can be a fine board wipe, most often the field won't be too saturated with creatures, but it does tend to be rather ineffective against token hordes. For hard wraths for that spot, I would suggest either Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Nevy's Disk I've never liked so much simply because it takes forever to get online. It is tutorable with Dimir House Guard though... so... eh?
The biggest card I can recommend for any deck is Rings of Brighthearth. With fetches being 'cheaper' now, it makes it an even more potent investment.
The biggest thing I'm seeing is a distinct lack of ramp. You have very little to do on your early turns. Charcoal Diamond and powerstone are good, but consider also Mind Stone, Commander's Sphere, fellwar stone, etc. Also Burnished Hart, and potentially Solemn Simulacrum (I've cut sad sim myself though). Terrain Generator can help make extra land drops as well when you have good card draw going.
Again, Rings of Brighthearth is awesome. Thawing Glaciers, fetch lands, etc.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Awesome response. I was unsure of Gary in the list due to not being extremely high on the black creature and enchantment count, however after looking at it, He does seem quite strong and I feel like both KoKo and Gary should go in list. I do also like Attrition as both a sac and control source.
Greel, Mind Raker (LOL) is a pet card I have in there just to use something kind of obscure that looks fun to me, and you should hear the blue players moan when he resolves! So many tears... Aside from that, I think he is a more fair version of a Mind Twist, I ran Twist for a few months and it just shut people down, to the point of being un-fun. At least with Greel, you see it coming. I know Myojin of Night's Reach is in my deck for mass discard, but he also can serve other purposes. Usually I only nuke their hands if then mess with him or me. Mind Twist only does one thing or rots in your hand.
Dimir House Guard is something I am trying out as tech. He is a tutor and a sac outlet in one card, depending on mode I need it for. He fetches:
Also if I add in Gravepact or Phyrexian Oblitorator, which I do in Heavyer Aggro metas. Also I can get him back with Volrth's Stronghold in a pinch.
Beseech the Queen is surprisingly good! It acts just like a Demonic Tutor 90% of the time because it is foolish to tutor for anything you do not have the mana base for. I would definitely drop Diabolic Tutor before this one.
Thanks for the reply.
I love Tragic Slip! It totally skipped my mind! Blightsteel Colossus? Banana Peel! Laughs ensue.. I like it! -GfTT +Slippage.
Rings of Brighthearth looks very powerful. I may have to get one. But am unsure if my meta is ready for 6 Gary triggers on the stack lol.
Also earlier someone mentioned Whip of Erebos. I really like that idea also. Whip + Pestilence Demon would be totally sweet.
You bring up some good points I had questions about:
My Main goal, other then winning, is to be controlish with enough punch to control 2 or 3 people and enough defense to defend against 2 or 3 people. While wrecking other blue based control strategies and Combo, hence the board sweepers and hand disruption. All pretty fair with looking to win around Mid/Late game. I do want my playgroup to actually PLAY magic for 10-15 rounds. Therefore, for me, No mass land disruption (AkA Contamination) and no Infinite Combos (Nim's Deathmantle + Grave Titan + Ashnod's Alter = Infinite Mana). It is intentional I left out those Peices as I feel Combo is bad for the Meta and No Fun. Pretty standard huh? SO...
Am I running too many sweepers? The deck has 8 Sweepers + 4 Tutors for them = 12? Should I cut 1 or 2 and run something more Proactive on the board?
Am I running too many Tutors? Really I have 9 Tutor sources with 2 being reusable. Same as Above...
Do I need more Silver Bullets?
How does my Mana Look? Am I land light with 35 (Maze and Stripmine are not lands lol)? I have 10 cards that fetch/ramp but should we consider things like Temple of the False God and Forbidden Tomb for ramp?
What do you guys think of the Balance between Control and Recursion? Should Recursion be a back up to Control/Good Stuff or should the Control just enable the Recursion Engine? Is this question too nebulous?? LOL..
However, there is still a lot in the deck for the rings to trigger on. For me, the biggest use is fetchlands/Thawing Glaciers to really get the mana ramp going faster; followed by transmute off of the Dimir House Guard or transfigure from... that other guy. Chainer's ability doesn't gain as much from copying, but it ends up costing 1 less for a second creature, and doesn't cost you life. Copying Xiahou Dun's ability lets him return himself so you have a 6 mana buyback Regrowth. Liliana/Karn abilities are always powerful to copy, trading post, etc.
In your deck, Greel and Arcbound Reclaimer would both be potent abilities to copy.
Do note that Rings of Brighthearth can be part of an infinite mana combo with Deserted Temple and Cabal Coffers. (copy the deserted temple's untap onto itself and coffers).
These questions will always be very meta dependent. I only really run 2 sweepers in my deck, but I repeatedly reanimate them, and haven't run into too huge issues with them getting exiled yet. Also, I run Fleshbag Marauder and the two other versions of him, which do serious work when reanimated by chainer.
9 tutors seems high to me, I run 3 + transmute + transfigure + 1 'to graveyard'. So I guess I run 6. It really depends on the consistency vs cost you want to have. Tutors give you greater consistency, but it's a tax to pay the cost of the tutor. I will likely replace one of my tutors with Sidisi when she comes out.
Silver bullets will depend on your meta and what you face. I prefer being generally ready than to having answers to specific threats, unless those threats are generally a weakness of my deck (In mono green, I run a lot of "destroy flying thing" cards, because the deck has a large weakness to flyers).
I haven't looked at my land count in depth recently, but there are two important questions: Do you have enough mana to get you started in the early game, and do you have enough card draw going after that to not ever miss a land drop? Did you mean Ancient Tomb? I like my mana doublers, so I generally prefer swamps over the others that tap for a generic 2.
My deck currently feels like its just card draw, ramp, and reanimating removal until I find the combo.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
These last few sets have been very nice to us.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Chainer vs. Horobi, Kemba, Ezuri
Despite a slightly slow start, with a hand emptying out quite quickly, (but some good artifact ramp in place), an Early Chainer (hope to grab something from an opposing GY to jump start the low card situation), gets picked off due to a Horobi.
I finally get a Dark Prophecy and Bitterblossom in hand, but Horobi has a Dingus Staff which makes things quite painful, as he dropped it shortly after I dropped a Spawning Pit. Ah well, I drop a Caged Sun on black, drop both, and pass. Horobi moves to kill my stuff, so I eat up a lot of life to get some cards and pass, but on the end of the turn rotation, I used my Oblivion Stone, not to explode (as others assumed I would), but instead to 'fate counter' Horobi. Then on my turn I pop off the Dingus Staff with my Unstable Obelisk. My Smothering Abomination gets picked off by the Horobi player, but I respond by saccing my board to draw a lot of cards.
A Gray Merchant of Asphodel gives me a needed pick-me up, and some Falkenrath Noble and Disciple of Bolas help boost me up more. With everyone around 20ish, and myself at a comfortable 50, I move into the next turn with a Chainer, and reanimate the Gray Merchant, but get met with a Sudden Spoiling, which stops the reanimation at least, but still puts everyone into the low 10's. I'm tempted to Yawgmoth's Will and recast him, but am worried that Ezuri had a counterspell up (he did), and a well timed counter in that would exile my Gray Merchant. So I drop some extra useless stuff, and pass, and reanimate Gray Merchant on the upkeep for the kill, though Horobi and Kemba kill off enough devotion that Horobi lives at 1 life. With no way to stop the combo though, he scoops.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Beseech the queen out for Sidisi, undead visier
Nirkana Revenant out for Sword of the animist
Spine of ish sah out for scour from existence
Trading Post out for Zulaport cutthroat
thought vessel came in for... something...
====
Further planned changes:
Examine current mana situation - add some sources of 'Any color' due to rule 4 removal. Maybe we'll rez something we want to use.
Also examine mana for colorless production - Mirrorpool looks like a valuable add.
Need to see if Thespian's Stage ever made it in. More coffer = more fun.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Set review time!
Shadows Over Innistrad
Overall, not a very great or high-profile set for us, but here we go:
Black
Asylum Visitor could be a cute 'combo' with Mindslicer, but would turn on too rarely for me. If the deck were to be build on a more discard heavy control theme though, this guy could shine.
Relentless Dead would require a zombie count on the deck to judge the usefulness, but any creature that returns itself is worth a mention, and any creature that returns another one is also worth a mention, making this guy worth at least two mentions.
Triskaidekaphobia - because it's fun, and no one would ever expect it.
Land
Drownyard Temple - Not the best deck to abuse this, but if we can get it into the graveyard, it could act as a small form of ramp. Not the most impressive use of it though.
Westvale Abbey - Though we can't resurrect him, Ormendahl, Profane Prince is quite a threat, and the lifelink can help offset our life payments. The land acting as a sac outlet could be a large boon to protect Chainer's resurrections from exile, as well as a good threat to activate when facing a wrath (thanks to the indestructible).
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek