The little Blood Artist and Falkenrath Noble are effing dirty. I re-added noble to my list after doing some crazy things with the Artist the other day. I am unfortunately not as nice as you though, and spread my 30 damage between two players when fun wraths happen. Except, my wrath was off of Decree of Pain so that was pretty much game.
As far as K goes, it seems as if she's not all that worth abusing!
Well aren't you kind then! In that case, I was definitely trying to take advantage of an opportunity to take over the game and end it. Niv's spiteful time warp really hurt me.
Animar was likely no longer a threat, since his army of a thousand artifact creatures was dead, but there was also no point in keeping him around anymore. Yeah, I could have used him to attack Teneb for me, but he could as easily have turned on me when I tried to stabilize. That pro-black on Animar is somewhat obnoxious.
As far as K goes, and abuse, there are times where it's a good play. There are times when it isn't. I stacked the deck so full of lifegain, that it turns out there are better options a lot of the time for me. I even pulled Sangromancer from the deck while I'm running Balthor.
Also, I do believe the reason I'm running Balthor is 100% because of Blood Artist and other dies triggers. Bringing everything back to count dead bodies off the Massacre wurm, or to pop a Kagemaro, First to Suffer and do it all again... It's pretty cool.
I'm still waiting to be able to pop Balthor with a rings out, just to pop Kagemaro after the first resolution, just to get extra dies triggers.
Balthor is bat**** bonkers. I run my version of chainer and just have balthor in the list to test him out. Balthor has just enabled some absolutely crazy plays the few activation's I've gotten off of him.
Have you considered running Phyrexian Reclamation instead of Oversold Cemetery? Reclamation does cost both mana and life for each activation, but it can be activated at instant-speed and as many times as you can afford. The mana cost isn't huge and black is very capable of making a lot of mana, plus your deck looks to gain plenty of life.
Balthor is bat**** bonkers. I run my version of chainer and just have balthor in the list to test him out. Balthor has just enabled some absolutely crazy plays the few activation's I've gotten off of him.
My win method is increasingly becoming: Balthor, activate, sac Kagemaro, Artist/Noble/Massacre triggers, repeat.
I am unsure how I feel about this.
Also, Kagemaro + Mikaeus is funny.
Kagemaro + Disciple of Bolas is funny.
Have you considered running Phyrexian Reclamation instead of Oversold Cemetery? Reclamation does cost both mana and life for each activation, but it can be activated at instant-speed and as many times as you can afford. The mana cost isn't huge and black is very capable of making a lot of mana, plus your deck looks to gain plenty of life.
I have actually, and it's leaning more and more in that direction. The cemetary has not proven to be as useful as I had hoped. Even on paper, early on the cemetary does nothing, and I have plenty of life to spend on Reclamation. Late game, I should have the resources to use reclamation better than 1 free card.
The only place where cemetary would shine is early-mid game, if I can get enough creatures in my grave fast enough.
I totally got my Balthor list all ordered... I dropped like $150 - $200 ish on it alone to fill in the gaps but I am looking forward to getting the cards. With a total order of $300.00 for my birthday Hello Gauntlet of Might says marton
I played a game on trice earlier which was fairly fun. I got set up with a mean balthor rez and hit it and the host got pissed and kicked me lol. I think I would have killed everyone as I had dark micky in the bin with about 7 other rezes while the norrin player had pandemonium in play so I think it would have been me kicking people in the face FTW.
Anyways, I should probably get more playtesting in and see what needs to move around.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Hey bob, I just thought I would throw you some feedback from some of my games.
Pawn of Ulamog - this guy has been playing really well for me. On several occasions now I have used him with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Blood Artist, and a sac outlet to just murder people. With Mikaeus in play you get to sacrifice all of your creatures twice and Pawn spanws me 2 more tokens yet to sacrifice for mana / ram through the sac outlet. This means that each creature you have will essentially trigger 4 activations of each of the Blood Artist / Falkenrath Noble. Needless to say without going infinite with this it quickly adds up to be really brutal. Also... in a wrath having your creatures leave behind eldrazi spawns has been totally amazing for allowing me to continue casting Balthor the following turns as they essentially negate his commander tax. Overall he has been totally sick in my list. He works well in wrath situations and off of death triggers as well as with sac outlets. He works really nice with big mana turns too so you can drop some really heavy Exsanguinates.
Mindslicer - this card is literally just so much win. We operate off of our graveyards and stripping opponents of their resources is huge. We also have tons of draw outlets to let us keep drawing more cards sustained than our opponents so axing their hands and drawing more than them every turn is very powerful. It is now my go to for hurting opponents with tutor / draw / combo as it is very disruptive.
Ill-Gotten Gains - this has been great as a multi purpose card for me. I can discard my creatures, grab my important spells back, and catch a peek of what my opponents are packing. This can grab Coffers back and due to graveyard hate we can remove good targets from opponents before doing this while culling their hands to be smaller as well. So far I have been fairly happy with it most every time I have drawn it.
Thanks for the nice write-up. My list started off quite based on yours with a few personal tweeks. I just figured I would share some of the cards that had been working for me. Due to how huge of an impact Balthor's ability has I have tried to really mitigate the amount of graveyard use I have in my list outside of him so we have some different philosophies behind our tactics.
I was also sort of wondering what your thoughts on Entomber Exarch might be. I was sort of thinking his ability to peek and force a discard out of an opponent might be really solid. In a rez he provides the ability to strip wraths from opponents and other potentially problematic abilities. Overall I like his versatility to be either a gravedigger or a creature form pinpoint discard from an opponent.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I had actually considered mindslicer for my list. Though I think I would have been too tempted to repeatedly abuse him to make everyone ditch their hands every turn. I'm not nice
I'll make a list of my post Kokusho changes soon; you reminded me, I am indeed testing Mindslicer currently.
I have also added Fleshbag Marauder, because he's been clearly lacking for a while, and I'm also trying out Pawn of Ulamog per ISB's suggestion. I can definitely get behind more mana generation and bodies.
My gut opinion is that Mindslicer would be better with Chainer, Fleshbag would go well with either, and Pawn is going to rock Balthor's world.
Last week, while I didn't get to pop off the tokens, the Pawn of Ulamog nudged the concession when my opponent realized I could pop off another 8 life of his at instant speed, while generating mana that I could use to abuse that Reassembling skeletons some more, which would net me more pawns. The set up was pawn, Disciple of Griselbrand, Reassembling Skeletons, Gravepact vs. Krenko. It's one of the few 1v1's I won against him, most of the others I was falling in about a turn late.
It was a happy moment.
I've also added Sudden Death and I'm considering Murder or Dismember to my lineup. Some more instant speed spot removal could be useful. Especially since this deck is able to hold them in hand a lot easier than many other decks.
Dismember can cost 1, but doesn't deal with a serra ascendant... Murder costs 3, but has an insane cool factor to it.
I'm truly partial to sudden spoiling, especially since you can use it with Massacre Wurm's ability on the stack. I think I'm going to update my chainer list to give balthor a whirl. Comically though, I had an interesting play with Blood Artist, Chainer, and Fleshbag the other day.
Me with 15 mana available vs. Rhys the Redeemed with Catastrophe (blowing up all lands) on the stack under Elesh Norn with an Avacyn in play at 13 life. Then a grim grim player next to him. Proceed to recur and sac fleshbag to chainer 5 times, killing Rhys and not losing any life. Rhys was less than pleased, and I managed to die shortly thereafter to Grim Grim's advanced board position. But it was fun nonetheless!
I think I may hit my LGS on my way out to lunch and grab a pawn of ulamogg.
This might be dumb but have you tried Disciple of Bolas in this deck? Also, is it worth running this deck without the bad girl banned dragon? I'm doing some goldfishing right now with my mono black deck with a few of your cards and I'm thinking of doing something like your list.
Ill-Gotten Gains - this has been great as a multi purpose card for me. I can discard my creatures, grab my important spells back, and catch a peek of what my opponents are packing. This can grab Coffers back and due to graveyard hate we can remove good targets from opponents before doing this while culling their hands to be smaller as well. So far I have been fairly happy with it most every time I have drawn it.
I really like this card in monoblack. It can be very disruptive, provides a fairly unique effect and the synergy can be broken through graveyard hate (especially Leyline of the Void). I'm especially fond of getting back 2 cards and Myojin of Night's Reach or sometimes even a simply Mind Twist will put you in a dominant position.
I have been having a lot of success with Go for the Throat and Victim of Night. Victim cant hit everything but honestly it hits about everything I would ever want to hit except for voltron Olivia / Thraximundar / Grimgrin decks. Shy of crap like that though it really hasnt ever been a problem though.
Tragic Slip has also sort of been on my radar because we have so much sac fodder that a 1 mana huge kill spell seems cool.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
With Kokusho's unbanning will this deck see a resurgence?
I've been playing the deck without Kokusho during the interim, with Balthor, the defiled at the helm. I'd already been considering moving back to Chainer, since Balthor was getting a bit repetitive on the Rez everything, wipe, watch blood artist do stupid things, do it again, and again, and again.
Chainer definitely is a more interesting play style, since the life total suddenly matters again, and his resurrection is more active in the game. Kokusho's unbanning may expedite the change back.
I have a brother that enjoys destroying things that generate long-term advantage for me. Since I'm playing reanimator generals, I've tried to keep more towards creature-based advantages in order to be able to return my engines.
Black market is otherwise an excellent mana generator in many black decks, and especially in this one where things may have a tendency to die fairly often.
I would consider running it in a version with more Stax elements as well, as Braids, Cabal Minion + Reassembling Skeleton type shenanigans can quickly fuel the market, allowing you to continue expanding your board situation on your turn while your mana is tied up on the skeletons.
I really like your list, and detailed in game feedback, very nice.
The only card I am sort of not liking is Dread, especially considering he shuffles back in when he dies. Has he been good for you? Personnaly I prefer No Mercy, it comes down earlier and tends to stay on the board longer than a creature.
Also, how do you fare running so little removal? In multiplayer I could see you riding other peoples wrath effects, though in 1 v 1 I imagine this deck could struggle against aggro...?
Also, have you considered mindcrank or Lashwrithe? The crank is really cheap to throw down, and just keeps working for you with no additional cost, it has done really well in my chainer. In multiplayer it can lead to a supermarket of creatures to choose from. And I like Lashwrithe because it often results in my 5/5's and 6/6's becoming closer to 15/15-20+, add in Necropolis Regent and if your force goes unanswered it shouldn't be long before you win. Reaper From the Abyss has done really well with chainer as well, having him out and any sacing shennanigans (grave pact/butcher) is awesome, they sac a creature of their choice and you nail their biggest threat.
Also why no haste enablers? As you know chainer can assemble a potent force within a single turn, staples like Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot boots help to turn up the heat for the swing, or help you protect chainer from targeted removal (which sucks when everything else gets exiled). I am debating running Akroma's Memorial for more haste and all the other good stuff, granted it is slow.
Again thanks for your detailed info, I had not considered the blood artist/falkenrath noble shenanigans, sounds pretty good!
I really like your list, and detailed in game feedback, very nice.
The only card I am sort of not liking is Dread, especially considering he shuffles back in when he dies. Has he been good for you? Personnaly I prefer No Mercy, it comes down earlier and tends to stay on the board longer than a creature.
Also, how do you fare running so little removal? In multiplayer I could see you riding other peoples wrath effects, though in 1 v 1 I imagine this deck could struggle against aggro...?
Also, have you considered mindcrank or Lashwrithe? The crank is really cheap to throw down, and just keeps working for you with no additional cost, it has done really well in my chainer. In multiplayer it can lead to a supermarket of creatures to choose from. And I like Lashwrithe because it often results in my 5/5's and 6/6's becoming closer to 15/15-20+, add in Necropolis Regent and if your force goes unanswered it shouldn't be long before you win. Reaper From the Abyss has done really well with chainer as well, having him out and any sacing shennanigans (grave pact/butcher) is awesome, they sac a creature of their choice and you nail their biggest threat.
Also why no haste enablers? As you know chainer can assemble a potent force within a single turn, staples like Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot boots help to turn up the heat for the swing, or help you protect chainer from targeted removal (which sucks when everything else gets exiled). I am debating running Akroma's Memorial for more haste and all the other good stuff, granted it is slow.
Again thanks for your detailed info, I had not considered the blood artist/falkenrath noble shenanigans, sounds pretty good!
Dread was in as a testing sort of shennaniganry. He was a test deterrent and test removal system. He hasn't impressed me much to be honest, and will likely be replaced. His ability is a triggered, and not replacement, so depite the shuffling, you could respond to it to bring him back. Even so, I rarely found myself doing it.
I tried moving more towards Creature-based removal, of varying types, since I can reanimate them for extended use. Shriekmaw failed to impress me, at all. I need to find a bone shredder, as I hear the echo helps out a lot in re-use. I was initially not impressed with the card when looking at it on paper during design, thinking the lower evoke cost of shriek would be better, but I may need to re-evaluate that. I also cycled through other forms of removal, early on I ran Braids/Smokestack, which can work wonders at keeping the field clean, I may need to return to them. Later I switched to mass kill creatures, such as Massacre Wurm and Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Both are beyond excellent, and both of them became my primary win method with Blood Artist while running Balthor. Which is just silly. Kagemaro also does the stupid with reanimation abuse involving Disciple of Bolas.
In single player, I would definitely up the removal. ISB gives a few favorites above, but I am rather partial to Sudden Death, Murder, and Tragic Slip. Not only are they great cards but they also have awesome names, which is equally or possibly more important.
Mindcrank (and similar), as well as dredge creatures I stayed away from during design because I wanted to avoid the mill/self mill stereotype. I would strongly consider it in Geth, or a version more reliant on resurecting opposing fatties to get through the red zone. I would probably add Stinkweed Imp before it though, as I'd rather get through my own utility creatures, like Disciple of Bolas. Also, Stinky is a great deterent on his own, and even better with the skullclamp.
I think I would run Bonehoard ahead of Lashwrithe, though both would take serious consideration. I'd be likely to run Batterskull ahead of both though if I really needed a heavy punching equipment. I'd be more likely to run hard-hitter gear if my Commander had a form of evasion, like Geth, Lord of the Vault, though they would still be good with bitterblossom tokens, I guess.
I've stolen opposing Reaper from the Abyss' a few times now, and while I was happy with the effect (This deck does want more removal...), it didn't seem like something I want to drop 6 mana for without much effect the first round, with a lightning rod strapped to his back. I think he'd be a great addition in with Braids/Smokestack/Sheoldred in the Stax elements department. Dropping him with a Braids out dramatically lowers the games clock time.
Since Chainer and Balthor can both use abilities instant speed, I've never really felt the need for haste at the current time. Giving 1 creature haste with a pair of boots usually won't put it into the kill zone, though army-granting haste is much better. That's why I like the EOT shennaniganry, and also ran Vedalken Orrery and Winding Canyons as further insurance. While not quite haste-level, the EOT is a nice pseudo haste for low investment, and also give better reactive presence.
Artist/Noble were initially added to slowly regain some of the self-inflicted pain. When I got 20+ life off the artist the first game I ran him, without actively trying, I was impressed. Ever so slowly, my subsequent games shifted to using him more and more, until I suddenly realized that he had become almost one of my primary win conditions, killing people with insane board presences that I would have problems breaking otherwise, or simply looping 3 Balthor activations to successfully drain an entire table in a single turn. Biggest surprising upset in the deck ever.
Really good stuff, thanks for the post. Chainer does like to use creatures to eliminate your opponnents creatures, as you stated, imo I feel Fleshbag Marauder is better than bone shredder as he is basically shriekmaw, Massacre Wurm is just a boss, and to a lesser degree Big Game Hunter and Abyssal Gatekeeper do pretty good as well. I too cut Shriekmaw early on, he sat in my hand far too long too many times. This also naturally led to a cut of doom blade, meh.
I agree with you about card names by the way, flavor is very important. And Murder is just a beautiful card in every way except for costing 1 more than Go for the Throat. And thanks for your reminder of winding canyons, I sort of got spoiled on Alchemist's Refuge in my Damia and sort of forgot about that card, definately going to run it.
And in regards to your response with haste I can see why you feel that way, within my deck there is a bit more emphasis on equipment so for me haste is more important, I am always trying to get something huge through.
And as awesome as I think Geth, Lord of the Vault is I have found that chainer is the only one I need to pull things from graveyards...when I see chainer lists with Animate Dead, and Reanimate and the like, I feel it is sort of redundant, removal can be run in those slots, eliminating threats and giving chainer more targets.
I really enjoy 1 v 1 and tend to run my chainer the most when playing in those games, that being the case I really like all the good black removal from sac effects/target/to wipe, coupled with the creature removal above. My deck really excells vs. aggro, though can struggle against combo or graveyard/tudor hate. I recently put Sadistic Sacrament back in my deck to help deal with annoying yosei locks/I win combos, though honestly sort of detest the card as it puts my opponents in such a negative state...I try to be somewhat sensitive to such things. Especially when I top deck it and it is my only option and I have the manna to kick it, this card really puts people off in a way like few other cards do. Open to considering alternatives that address artifacts/enchanments/combo once on the board....sort of tough in chainer, karn liberated and the uber slow non abusible in chainer spine of ish sah, only options?
And your Balthor shenanigans sound really good, he is not run whatsoever in my meta and I plan to give him a whirl, I am sure he will do just awesome.
I have another question for you, I can see the synergy w/ blood artist and any form of wipe when there are a somewhat large amount of total creatures out, and being just bonkers against token decks. However, what has been your form of win con against a board that does not have allot of creatures? Just the natural stats of creatures? That is another reason why I recommend a card like Lashwrithe and the somewhat jank quietus spike, if your best win con is contigent on allot of creatures on the board I would think that late game you would like to simply make something huge? Also, I can not give enough credit to Exsanguinate, early mid game I can lay down some good beats, and late game when things have been wiped and I am behind on board presence, I can simply zap my opponent for the remaining 10-20 dmg for the win. That card can really help finish.
I have another question for you, I can see the synergy w/ blood artist and any form of wipe when there are a somewhat large amount of total creatures out, and being just bonkers against token decks. However, what has been your form of win con against a board that does not have allot of creatures? Just the natural stats of creatures? That is another reason why I recommend a card like Lashwrithe and the somewhat jank quietus spike, if your best win con is contigent on allot of creatures on the board I would think that late game you would like to simply make something huge? Also, I can not give enough credit to Exsanguinate, early mid game I can lay down some good beats, and late game when things have been wiped and I am behind on board presence, I can simply zap my opponent for the remaining 10-20 dmg for the win. That card can really help finish.
With Balthor, that has never been a problem. With even only your graveyard, you can loop Balthor enough to do it on his own. More-so if you have a Mikaeus to boot. Mike + Kagemaro is crazy, since the +1/+1 undying lets kagemaro live through his own wrath for round 2.
Also, with winding canyons I've surprised people by flashing and activating Balthor in response to mass-grave hate before. It was sexy.
With Chainer, I don't worry about the wincons as much either, since I can just work out of the opponent's graveyard as well. It doesn't matter what they have, since I can clear the board, and then resurrect it all anyways.
So tonight I got to play against a Gwafa deck that stuck a turn 3 Rhystic Study for the entire game, with a Venser's Journal sitting at 220+ life the entire time.
Until he scooped to me of course.
Starts off with a Reaper King locking everything down, until his face gets pounded in with everyone else at 37+ life. Sorry, if you're playing blood moon, Damping matrix, energy flux, et all, you'd best have defense.
Once he's out of the way, things heat up. Everyone has armies, I have Falkenrath Noble, no mana, and a lot of personal fear.
Kagemaro, pop Xiahou for Living Death, use Kagemaro, Use Living Death, pop Xiahou for Living Death, use Kagemaro, use Living Death, use Xiahou, use Kagemaro, use Living Death...
No infinite mana, of course, so this is over time, but with my swamps producing BBB and crucible + sac land action, and terrain Generator, with Rune-scarred tutoring every activation, and me gaining 90+ life per activation (Dross Harvestor + noble + 30 triggers a shot), things were pretty solid.
Living Death + Xiahou is something pretty darn insane.
A good way to end Balthor, as I'll be moving back to Chainer to shake things up since the whole Noble/Artist loop endings are getting very 1-dimentional now to me.
Figured I'd go over the new notable mono-black cards in RTR and give initial impressions:
Dark Revenant - Really, I'm only bringing this up to note it's interaction with skullclamp, otherwise it's simply terrible. If you want another clamp fodder, run Golgari Thug before him. (Infinitely better).
Desecration Demon - Maybe for the die-hard Stax fans, but I'm not terribly impressed. He'll really only take out one creature a round, and when you really want him to be stax, he'll just be 6 in the air, and when you want him to be 6 in the air, he'll be busy chewing on demons.
Destroy the Evidence - Expensive, but it does deal with problematic lands, and can also stock a graveyard for Chainer to use. Not thrilled by it, but it could be acceptable depending on your meta.
Drainpipe Vermin - A nifty 1 drop for the deck if you like the discard idea. Probably more useful in a Balthor deck that loops the mass reanimation/kill for some extra hand destruction.
Grave Betrayal - Expensive to play, but a game changer in slower metas. Combine with board clearing for epic instant armies. In my Balthor loop chain, it would amount to an extra board clearing for more death triggers.
Launch Party - It's a kill spell I guess, I see little upside to this for the cost in comparison to Bone splinters or chill to the bone. While splinters is a sorcery, 3 mana cost higher should get you a better spell than this.
Necropolis Regent - A good way to change track and end the game quick, if need be. If you have slots for scary threats, this is one of them.
Pack Rat - Pitches cards to reanimate, and makes bodies either for a scarier army, or to fuel stax. Not a great card in any regard, but interesting in use of its versatility. I might not test it, but it's one to consider.
Slum Reaper - Quite possibly the card I'm most excited about. Fleshbag Marauder is awesome in here, and I expect this guy to be more of the same sexiness.
Underworld Connections - I like more arena effects, though I don't know if I really want to encourage people to destroy even more of my lands. Mono-black isn't the fastest to get on its feet, but it could act as bait to remove Land D before dropping coffers.
Codex Shredder - seems weak and overcosted on every ability. Color me unimpressed.
Rogue's Passage - If you have a deck that likes to connect, for the low price of tapping 5 lands, you can make that happen! Seems expensive to use.
Overall, not terribly much that I'm excited about for this deck, but I have enough to think about while changing back to Chainer, and slotting Kokusho back in.
I am in the process of re-organizing the Original Post for post-unbanning relevance. I am also adding a few more Commander Options to the MBC list, as quite a few fit the role quite well in a reanimator capacity (though I am less keen on some).
Since I am currently changing my deck back to Chainer (Balthor's getting a bit predicatable and is starting to draw a bit of dis-favor), now seems like a great time to update my lists and all that. I want to preserve my current Balthor list, which I think may need updating as well as XHD still appears to be in my wishlist, alongside Disciple of Grisel, and Volraths stronghold, all of which have been in the deck for a while. This means I'll need to update my Card options list as well (Necropotence is currently not run either, which needs fixing), and I think the best way is to shift over to a general card options list, with cards run indicated in bold or somesuch. I'm becoming less of a fan of the split, "cards run" vs "cards not run" lists. It can make it harder for a potential deck builder to look through similar options. I'm also trying to consider ways to also show function of various cards easily at first look.
Something like:
3Bone-shredder (Single-target) - Bone-Shredder is a reanimatable kill-spell which conveniently puts itself back into the graveyard. While Shriekmaw evokes for less and puts himself into the graveyard on the first use, the Shredder holds an advantage in putting himself back in the yard when reanimated as well. 6Havestor of Souls (Draw) - The Harvestor has no immediate impact, but can have excellent scope of card advantage. Reanimating him in response to a wrath effect, or even a good removal set can make him pay for himself very quickly. His synergy with Stax elements or other repeated kill methods, a core in MBC, cannot be understated either. 6Reaper of the abyss (Stax) - Reaper is a decent high-curve removal option. He doesn't do much immediately, or on his own though, diminishing his value. With repeatable sac engines/fodder, or other Stax elements, he can add quite a bit of extra value while stapled to a decent flying beater.
I'm deciding if I like the look, and if the extra information is worth the space it takes. Thoughts?
As far as K goes, it seems as if she's not all that worth abusing!
Also, Niv had Mindmoil and Teferi's Puzzle Box in play... so I'm not too sad at taking out the threat.
Animar was likely no longer a threat, since his army of a thousand artifact creatures was dead, but there was also no point in keeping him around anymore. Yeah, I could have used him to attack Teneb for me, but he could as easily have turned on me when I tried to stabilize. That pro-black on Animar is somewhat obnoxious.
As far as K goes, and abuse, there are times where it's a good play. There are times when it isn't. I stacked the deck so full of lifegain, that it turns out there are better options a lot of the time for me. I even pulled Sangromancer from the deck while I'm running Balthor.
Also, I do believe the reason I'm running Balthor is 100% because of Blood Artist and other dies triggers. Bringing everything back to count dead bodies off the Massacre wurm, or to pop a Kagemaro, First to Suffer and do it all again... It's pretty cool.
I'm still waiting to be able to pop Balthor with a rings out, just to pop Kagemaro after the first resolution, just to get extra dies triggers.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Whatever I build from my Box-o-EDH stuff
Legacy
Sneak and Show
UR Delver
Scapeshift Nic Fit
Modern
Merfolk
My win method is increasingly becoming: Balthor, activate, sac Kagemaro, Artist/Noble/Massacre triggers, repeat.
I am unsure how I feel about this.
Also, Kagemaro + Mikaeus is funny.
Kagemaro + Disciple of Bolas is funny.
Kagemaro is funny.
I have actually, and it's leaning more and more in that direction. The cemetary has not proven to be as useful as I had hoped. Even on paper, early on the cemetary does nothing, and I have plenty of life to spend on Reclamation. Late game, I should have the resources to use reclamation better than 1 free card.
The only place where cemetary would shine is early-mid game, if I can get enough creatures in my grave fast enough.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I played a game on trice earlier which was fairly fun. I got set up with a mean balthor rez and hit it and the host got pissed and kicked me lol. I think I would have killed everyone as I had dark micky in the bin with about 7 other rezes while the norrin player had pandemonium in play so I think it would have been me kicking people in the face FTW.
Anyways, I should probably get more playtesting in and see what needs to move around.
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[Modern] Allies
For our last night of testing, I pitched a wild idea to my group: Everyone gets a Kokusho, in the colors of their General.
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Pawn of Ulamog - this guy has been playing really well for me. On several occasions now I have used him with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Blood Artist, and a sac outlet to just murder people. With Mikaeus in play you get to sacrifice all of your creatures twice and Pawn spanws me 2 more tokens yet to sacrifice for mana / ram through the sac outlet. This means that each creature you have will essentially trigger 4 activations of each of the Blood Artist / Falkenrath Noble. Needless to say without going infinite with this it quickly adds up to be really brutal. Also... in a wrath having your creatures leave behind eldrazi spawns has been totally amazing for allowing me to continue casting Balthor the following turns as they essentially negate his commander tax. Overall he has been totally sick in my list. He works well in wrath situations and off of death triggers as well as with sac outlets. He works really nice with big mana turns too so you can drop some really heavy Exsanguinates.
Mindslicer - this card is literally just so much win. We operate off of our graveyards and stripping opponents of their resources is huge. We also have tons of draw outlets to let us keep drawing more cards sustained than our opponents so axing their hands and drawing more than them every turn is very powerful. It is now my go to for hurting opponents with tutor / draw / combo as it is very disruptive.
Ill-Gotten Gains - this has been great as a multi purpose card for me. I can discard my creatures, grab my important spells back, and catch a peek of what my opponents are packing. This can grab Coffers back and due to graveyard hate we can remove good targets from opponents before doing this while culling their hands to be smaller as well. So far I have been fairly happy with it most every time I have drawn it.
Thanks for the nice write-up. My list started off quite based on yours with a few personal tweeks. I just figured I would share some of the cards that had been working for me. Due to how huge of an impact Balthor's ability has I have tried to really mitigate the amount of graveyard use I have in my list outside of him so we have some different philosophies behind our tactics.
I was also sort of wondering what your thoughts on Entomber Exarch might be. I was sort of thinking his ability to peek and force a discard out of an opponent might be really solid. In a rez he provides the ability to strip wraths from opponents and other potentially problematic abilities. Overall I like his versatility to be either a gravedigger or a creature form pinpoint discard from an opponent.
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[Modern] Allies
I have also added Fleshbag Marauder, because he's been clearly lacking for a while, and I'm also trying out Pawn of Ulamog per ISB's suggestion. I can definitely get behind more mana generation and bodies.
My gut opinion is that Mindslicer would be better with Chainer, Fleshbag would go well with either, and Pawn is going to rock Balthor's world.
Last week, while I didn't get to pop off the tokens, the Pawn of Ulamog nudged the concession when my opponent realized I could pop off another 8 life of his at instant speed, while generating mana that I could use to abuse that Reassembling skeletons some more, which would net me more pawns. The set up was pawn, Disciple of Griselbrand, Reassembling Skeletons, Gravepact vs. Krenko. It's one of the few 1v1's I won against him, most of the others I was falling in about a turn late.
It was a happy moment.
I've also added Sudden Death and I'm considering Murder or Dismember to my lineup. Some more instant speed spot removal could be useful. Especially since this deck is able to hold them in hand a lot easier than many other decks.
Dismember can cost 1, but doesn't deal with a serra ascendant... Murder costs 3, but has an insane cool factor to it.
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Me with 15 mana available vs. Rhys the Redeemed with Catastrophe (blowing up all lands) on the stack under Elesh Norn with an Avacyn in play at 13 life. Then a grim grim player next to him. Proceed to recur and sac fleshbag to chainer 5 times, killing Rhys and not losing any life. Rhys was less than pleased, and I managed to die shortly thereafter to Grim Grim's advanced board position. But it was fun nonetheless!
I think I may hit my LGS on my way out to lunch and grab a pawn of ulamogg.
Edit: lol of Kokushopalooza
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
I really like this card in monoblack. It can be very disruptive, provides a fairly unique effect and the synergy can be broken through graveyard hate (especially Leyline of the Void). I'm especially fond of getting back 2 cards and Myojin of Night's Reach or sometimes even a simply Mind Twist will put you in a dominant position.
Tragic Slip has also sort of been on my radar because we have so much sac fodder that a 1 mana huge kill spell seems cool.
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[Modern] Allies
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Whatever I build from my Box-o-EDH stuff
Legacy
Sneak and Show
UR Delver
Scapeshift Nic Fit
Modern
Merfolk
I've been playing the deck without Kokusho during the interim, with Balthor, the defiled at the helm. I'd already been considering moving back to Chainer, since Balthor was getting a bit repetitive on the Rez everything, wipe, watch blood artist do stupid things, do it again, and again, and again.
Chainer definitely is a more interesting play style, since the life total suddenly matters again, and his resurrection is more active in the game. Kokusho's unbanning may expedite the change back.
I have a brother that enjoys destroying things that generate long-term advantage for me. Since I'm playing reanimator generals, I've tried to keep more towards creature-based advantages in order to be able to return my engines.
Black market is otherwise an excellent mana generator in many black decks, and especially in this one where things may have a tendency to die fairly often.
I would consider running it in a version with more Stax elements as well, as Braids, Cabal Minion + Reassembling Skeleton type shenanigans can quickly fuel the market, allowing you to continue expanding your board situation on your turn while your mana is tied up on the skeletons.
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The only card I am sort of not liking is Dread, especially considering he shuffles back in when he dies. Has he been good for you? Personnaly I prefer No Mercy, it comes down earlier and tends to stay on the board longer than a creature.
Also, how do you fare running so little removal? In multiplayer I could see you riding other peoples wrath effects, though in 1 v 1 I imagine this deck could struggle against aggro...?
Also, have you considered mindcrank or Lashwrithe? The crank is really cheap to throw down, and just keeps working for you with no additional cost, it has done really well in my chainer. In multiplayer it can lead to a supermarket of creatures to choose from. And I like Lashwrithe because it often results in my 5/5's and 6/6's becoming closer to 15/15-20+, add in Necropolis Regent and if your force goes unanswered it shouldn't be long before you win. Reaper From the Abyss has done really well with chainer as well, having him out and any sacing shennanigans (grave pact/butcher) is awesome, they sac a creature of their choice and you nail their biggest threat.
Also why no haste enablers? As you know chainer can assemble a potent force within a single turn, staples like Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot boots help to turn up the heat for the swing, or help you protect chainer from targeted removal (which sucks when everything else gets exiled). I am debating running Akroma's Memorial for more haste and all the other good stuff, granted it is slow.
Again thanks for your detailed info, I had not considered the blood artist/falkenrath noble shenanigans, sounds pretty good!
Dread was in as a testing sort of shennaniganry. He was a test deterrent and test removal system. He hasn't impressed me much to be honest, and will likely be replaced. His ability is a triggered, and not replacement, so depite the shuffling, you could respond to it to bring him back. Even so, I rarely found myself doing it.
I tried moving more towards Creature-based removal, of varying types, since I can reanimate them for extended use. Shriekmaw failed to impress me, at all. I need to find a bone shredder, as I hear the echo helps out a lot in re-use. I was initially not impressed with the card when looking at it on paper during design, thinking the lower evoke cost of shriek would be better, but I may need to re-evaluate that. I also cycled through other forms of removal, early on I ran Braids/Smokestack, which can work wonders at keeping the field clean, I may need to return to them. Later I switched to mass kill creatures, such as Massacre Wurm and Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Both are beyond excellent, and both of them became my primary win method with Blood Artist while running Balthor. Which is just silly. Kagemaro also does the stupid with reanimation abuse involving Disciple of Bolas.
In single player, I would definitely up the removal. ISB gives a few favorites above, but I am rather partial to Sudden Death, Murder, and Tragic Slip. Not only are they great cards but they also have awesome names, which is equally or possibly more important.
Mindcrank (and similar), as well as dredge creatures I stayed away from during design because I wanted to avoid the mill/self mill stereotype. I would strongly consider it in Geth, or a version more reliant on resurecting opposing fatties to get through the red zone. I would probably add Stinkweed Imp before it though, as I'd rather get through my own utility creatures, like Disciple of Bolas. Also, Stinky is a great deterent on his own, and even better with the skullclamp.
I think I would run Bonehoard ahead of Lashwrithe, though both would take serious consideration. I'd be likely to run Batterskull ahead of both though if I really needed a heavy punching equipment. I'd be more likely to run hard-hitter gear if my Commander had a form of evasion, like Geth, Lord of the Vault, though they would still be good with bitterblossom tokens, I guess.
I've stolen opposing Reaper from the Abyss' a few times now, and while I was happy with the effect (This deck does want more removal...), it didn't seem like something I want to drop 6 mana for without much effect the first round, with a lightning rod strapped to his back. I think he'd be a great addition in with Braids/Smokestack/Sheoldred in the Stax elements department. Dropping him with a Braids out dramatically lowers the games clock time.
Since Chainer and Balthor can both use abilities instant speed, I've never really felt the need for haste at the current time. Giving 1 creature haste with a pair of boots usually won't put it into the kill zone, though army-granting haste is much better. That's why I like the EOT shennaniganry, and also ran Vedalken Orrery and Winding Canyons as further insurance. While not quite haste-level, the EOT is a nice pseudo haste for low investment, and also give better reactive presence.
Artist/Noble were initially added to slowly regain some of the self-inflicted pain. When I got 20+ life off the artist the first game I ran him, without actively trying, I was impressed. Ever so slowly, my subsequent games shifted to using him more and more, until I suddenly realized that he had become almost one of my primary win conditions, killing people with insane board presences that I would have problems breaking otherwise, or simply looping 3 Balthor activations to successfully drain an entire table in a single turn. Biggest surprising upset in the deck ever.
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I agree with you about card names by the way, flavor is very important. And Murder is just a beautiful card in every way except for costing 1 more than Go for the Throat. And thanks for your reminder of winding canyons, I sort of got spoiled on Alchemist's Refuge in my Damia and sort of forgot about that card, definately going to run it.
And in regards to your response with haste I can see why you feel that way, within my deck there is a bit more emphasis on equipment so for me haste is more important, I am always trying to get something huge through.
And as awesome as I think Geth, Lord of the Vault is I have found that chainer is the only one I need to pull things from graveyards...when I see chainer lists with Animate Dead, and Reanimate and the like, I feel it is sort of redundant, removal can be run in those slots, eliminating threats and giving chainer more targets.
I really enjoy 1 v 1 and tend to run my chainer the most when playing in those games, that being the case I really like all the good black removal from sac effects/target/to wipe, coupled with the creature removal above. My deck really excells vs. aggro, though can struggle against combo or graveyard/tudor hate. I recently put Sadistic Sacrament back in my deck to help deal with annoying yosei locks/I win combos, though honestly sort of detest the card as it puts my opponents in such a negative state...I try to be somewhat sensitive to such things. Especially when I top deck it and it is my only option and I have the manna to kick it, this card really puts people off in a way like few other cards do. Open to considering alternatives that address artifacts/enchanments/combo once on the board....sort of tough in chainer, karn liberated and the uber slow non abusible in chainer spine of ish sah, only options?
And your Balthor shenanigans sound really good, he is not run whatsoever in my meta and I plan to give him a whirl, I am sure he will do just awesome.
I have another question for you, I can see the synergy w/ blood artist and any form of wipe when there are a somewhat large amount of total creatures out, and being just bonkers against token decks. However, what has been your form of win con against a board that does not have allot of creatures? Just the natural stats of creatures? That is another reason why I recommend a card like Lashwrithe and the somewhat jank quietus spike, if your best win con is contigent on allot of creatures on the board I would think that late game you would like to simply make something huge? Also, I can not give enough credit to Exsanguinate, early mid game I can lay down some good beats, and late game when things have been wiped and I am behind on board presence, I can simply zap my opponent for the remaining 10-20 dmg for the win. That card can really help finish.
With Balthor, that has never been a problem. With even only your graveyard, you can loop Balthor enough to do it on his own. More-so if you have a Mikaeus to boot. Mike + Kagemaro is crazy, since the +1/+1 undying lets kagemaro live through his own wrath for round 2.
Also, with winding canyons I've surprised people by flashing and activating Balthor in response to mass-grave hate before. It was sexy.
With Chainer, I don't worry about the wincons as much either, since I can just work out of the opponent's graveyard as well. It doesn't matter what they have, since I can clear the board, and then resurrect it all anyways.
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Until he scooped to me of course.
Starts off with a Reaper King locking everything down, until his face gets pounded in with everyone else at 37+ life. Sorry, if you're playing blood moon, Damping matrix, energy flux, et all, you'd best have defense.
Once he's out of the way, things heat up. Everyone has armies, I have Falkenrath Noble, no mana, and a lot of personal fear.
Living Death as board wipe. Gain 20 life, get things dead. Sovereigns of lost alara smash into me for 15 grabbing Eldrazi concription. They get taken care of by a Tamiyo, so I grab some manas and puch face with a Xiahoudun the one-eyed.
Scary stuff appears again. Xiahou, Living Death. Rune-scarred comes back (top 4 only, Aven Mindcensor), grabs Kagemaro, First to suffer. Oh fun.
Kagemaro, pop Xiahou for Living Death, use Kagemaro, Use Living Death, pop Xiahou for Living Death, use Kagemaro, use Living Death, use Xiahou, use Kagemaro, use Living Death...
No infinite mana, of course, so this is over time, but with my swamps producing BBB and crucible + sac land action, and terrain Generator, with Rune-scarred tutoring every activation, and me gaining 90+ life per activation (Dross Harvestor + noble + 30 triggers a shot), things were pretty solid.
Living Death + Xiahou is something pretty darn insane.
A good way to end Balthor, as I'll be moving back to Chainer to shake things up since the whole Noble/Artist loop endings are getting very 1-dimentional now to me.
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Figured I'd go over the new notable mono-black cards in RTR and give initial impressions:
Dark Revenant - Really, I'm only bringing this up to note it's interaction with skullclamp, otherwise it's simply terrible. If you want another clamp fodder, run Golgari Thug before him. (Infinitely better).
Desecration Demon - Maybe for the die-hard Stax fans, but I'm not terribly impressed. He'll really only take out one creature a round, and when you really want him to be stax, he'll just be 6 in the air, and when you want him to be 6 in the air, he'll be busy chewing on demons.
Destroy the Evidence - Expensive, but it does deal with problematic lands, and can also stock a graveyard for Chainer to use. Not thrilled by it, but it could be acceptable depending on your meta.
Drainpipe Vermin - A nifty 1 drop for the deck if you like the discard idea. Probably more useful in a Balthor deck that loops the mass reanimation/kill for some extra hand destruction.
Grave Betrayal - Expensive to play, but a game changer in slower metas. Combine with board clearing for epic instant armies. In my Balthor loop chain, it would amount to an extra board clearing for more death triggers.
Launch Party - It's a kill spell I guess, I see little upside to this for the cost in comparison to Bone splinters or chill to the bone. While splinters is a sorcery, 3 mana cost higher should get you a better spell than this.
Necropolis Regent - A good way to change track and end the game quick, if need be. If you have slots for scary threats, this is one of them.
Pack Rat - Pitches cards to reanimate, and makes bodies either for a scarier army, or to fuel stax. Not a great card in any regard, but interesting in use of its versatility. I might not test it, but it's one to consider.
Slum Reaper - Quite possibly the card I'm most excited about. Fleshbag Marauder is awesome in here, and I expect this guy to be more of the same sexiness.
Underworld Connections - I like more arena effects, though I don't know if I really want to encourage people to destroy even more of my lands. Mono-black isn't the fastest to get on its feet, but it could act as bait to remove Land D before dropping coffers.
Codex Shredder - seems weak and overcosted on every ability. Color me unimpressed.
Rogue's Passage - If you have a deck that likes to connect, for the low price of tapping 5 lands, you can make that happen! Seems expensive to use.
Overall, not terribly much that I'm excited about for this deck, but I have enough to think about while changing back to Chainer, and slotting Kokusho back in.
Slum Reaper does make me happy though.
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Since I am currently changing my deck back to Chainer (Balthor's getting a bit predicatable and is starting to draw a bit of dis-favor), now seems like a great time to update my lists and all that. I want to preserve my current Balthor list, which I think may need updating as well as XHD still appears to be in my wishlist, alongside Disciple of Grisel, and Volraths stronghold, all of which have been in the deck for a while. This means I'll need to update my Card options list as well (Necropotence is currently not run either, which needs fixing), and I think the best way is to shift over to a general card options list, with cards run indicated in bold or somesuch. I'm becoming less of a fan of the split, "cards run" vs "cards not run" lists. It can make it harder for a potential deck builder to look through similar options. I'm also trying to consider ways to also show function of various cards easily at first look.
Something like:
I'm deciding if I like the look, and if the extra information is worth the space it takes. Thoughts?
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