The Trumpet is very close to being good for the deck. If it said, "All creatures gain vigilance and must attack each turn," then I'd be happy running it. But because it actively damages them when not attacking, that makes you the logical target to get rid of the effect. Even with MK on the board, I think you get the brunt of the attacks.
Armageddon may be good in certain situations for the deck, but if I was going to run a land sweeper, I would go with Catastrophe. I'd get the option of land sweeper if I could take advantage, but also have the option of creature wipe, which is more likely.
Your deck is very good vs aggro deck. But, I don't think competitive enough to face mono blue deck or voltron deck (like Godo or Akroma Red).
In one-on-one, no this deck won't perform well against those. In practice, I've done fine against them in 4+ player games. That's fine. I'm not trying to make this 1v1 competitive. If you're worried about prevalent Voltron style decks against this, fetch a Crackdown from the deck to stop them in their tracks.
I REALLY like your deck. I am going to make it my go-to white deck for mono-colored EDH (I have Norin, Ashling the Pilgrim, Azusa Lost but Seeking, Skithyrix, Tomorrow Azumi's Familiar, and now your awesome-sauce).
I was looking over your card selection, and was wondering if perhaps silverchase fox might be an improvement over Ronom Unicorn; I always prefer to exile whenever possible.
Thanks! I have been thinking of the Fox off and on since Innistrad was released. I think I've gone back and forth at least 10 times between Silverchase Fox, Dispeller's Capsule, and the Ronom Unicorn. I have ways of recurring all of them, and they all have benefits to their inclusion. It's one of those things that you can modify to fit best within your own metagame. I don't have much recursion of enchantments in mine, so I've sort of put the Fox to the end of preference for the moment.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
I love mono white, and I ultimately ended up taking my 8.5 tails voltron deck apart. Mainly because it was the second deck I'd ever built and it really wasn't great. I've since built a MBC control deck, and it made me want to build back into MWC. However after looking at yours and Telekenis' decks I was curious how you fair against blue or combo decks. As previously stated, I see tons of ways to stop anyone from dealing direct damage to you so that would certainly stop decks like Niv-Mizzet in their tracks (unless of course those permanents are dealt with). However short of holding something like return to dust / lapse of certainty in hand for a long time I've no idea how you would stop a combo, aside from relying on your opponents to do that for you.
Granted my MBC deck has a similar problem, and I've still not yet gotten an idea as to how to stop that.
...However after looking at yours and Telekenis' decks I was curious how you fair against blue or combo decks. As previously stated, I see tons of ways to stop anyone from dealing direct damage to you so that would certainly stop decks like Niv-Mizzet in their tracks (unless of course those permanents are dealt with). However short of holding something like return to dust / lapse of certainty in hand for a long time I've no idea how you would stop a combo, aside from relying on your opponents to do that for you...
My deck is not particularly tilted towards battling a combo heavy metagame, I'll admit readily. However, in my real-life playgroups, I have never run against a dedicated combo build. If you are particularly concerned about the combo matchup, feel free to make any adjustments to assist with that. I list several options in my original post for very strong anti-combo measures, such as Solitary Confinement, Ethersworn Canonist, Lapse of Certainty, and Jester's Cap.
Against blue decks, I have never had significant issues in a multiplayer game. A dedicated blue control deck is going to be spread relatively thin outside of a 1v1 game, and by the time it gets down to you vs. them, you should have a decent enough board state to build off of. Again, if this is a matchup you are overly concerned about, you can modify the deck to include more threats with flash, or more threats they cannot attack on traditional means, such as man-lands (Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus support plays well with Weathered Wayfarer).
Anyway, an update:
I'm finally completely fed up with my Jade Monolith, so I'm making it a priority to replace it with a Forcefield. I've also been winning a lot of games on Cockatrice on the back of Cataclysm, so I'm going to try replacing Mass Calcify with a copy of Catastrophe to get another chance at that magic.
Baneslayer took the place of my Transcendent Master for a few reasons. I wanted a threat and I still wanted something with lifelink to help me out if I should ever start to dip too far (which was honestly my favorite part about the TM). With my efforts to get the overall mana curve lower in this deck, I decided that Baneslayer was better for me right away without needing to spend another 6+ mana through level-up to get the aforementioned benefits I was looking for. It's just a matter of picking the most efficient option for that slot.
I finally convinced myself to pull the Wing Shards out of the deck. I think it may have been one of the last ties to the old Onslaught era MWC decks (which makes me a little sad to lose), but I think it was the best choice for my deck. Adding the Mouth of Ronom in here brings my land count to a place I'm happier with. It also adds a Snow-type permanent to add synergy with my Scrying Sheets, and adds more synergy as a self-sacrificing land to pair with Crucible of Worlds.
I'm running the Mystifying Maze and Kor Haven as my preferred "Maze effects" just because both of them produce mana on their own. Maze of Ith is obviously fantastic and is more mana efficient than either of those two, but it can't tap for mana. This dilutes the effectiveness of Land Tax by just a little bit by always needing to have additional lands in play. I'm riding my Land Tax pretty hard with this list, so I don't know if I want to do that.
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():
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
One other question. Instead of extraplanar lense, caged sun? I hate getting 2 for 1'd with lens.
Thanks again for sharing this deck. I'm almost done putting it together!
Well, traditionally I really liked having the Lens as a 3 mana option. It can come down without acceleration on turn 3, and give you access to 6 W the next turn. By splitting my mana doublers between a lower and higher cost option, the theory is that I can get access to this effect at whatever stage of the game I really need it. Running my snow-covered mana-base is also helpful with the Lens, and negates a lot of the splash-damage that could come from other players taking advantage of the Lens that I cast for my benefit.
Hey, nice list. I decided to go with a Death and Taxes style list using 8.5Tails but your thread has had me consider adding her to my deck as another general (my deck is weird) to use for variety.
How good is charbelcher?
Because I have Added some cards from your list to my list of things to maybe add I was wondering if I could post your list in my thread with a link to this thread?
Check it out http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436206.
I think Charbelcher is a pretty decent option for a win-con. Your list and mine are currently only able to win through creature damage (I may have missed an alternate win-con when looking through your deck). If you're worried about something like an Blazing Archon that hits the board and can't be answered for some reason, then having that alternate win possibility is certainly worth consideration. If you were running both the Endless Horizons and a Land Tax in your deck, then I'd say it was worth a slot.
Because I have Added some cards from your list to my list of things to maybe add I was wondering if I could post your list in my thread with a link to this thread?
Check it out http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436206.
Sure, feel free to talk about it or direct people over here as you'd like. Just don't put words in my mouth and we'll never have a problem.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
You didn't feel like looking like 2 posts above you?
Quote from me »
Well, traditionally I really liked having the Lens as a 3 mana option. It can come down without acceleration on turn 3, and give you access to 6 w the next turn. By splitting my mana doublers between a lower and higher cost option, the theory is that I can get access to this effect at whatever stage of the game I really need it. Running my snow-covered mana-base is also helpful with the Lens, and negates a lot of the splash-damage that could come from other players taking advantage of the Lens that I cast for my benefit.
Really, I only wanted two of the effects in the deck. I prefer the two that are in there now, since they have a lower cmc. I don't really know that I need a third "mana doubler" in the deck.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
Luminarch made me too much of a target, to the point that I never got it active anymore. Dust Elemental was cute, but I don't think I've actually cast it in about a year. The two additions should keep the mana curve low, while providing me with two phenomenal sources of card advantage.
Also, thank you to the primer committee for approving my list to be an official primer. I hope everyone enjoys it!
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
Looks like it's one of those rare opportunities where I get to toot my own horn. This deck was one of those featured by Sheldon in his article on Star City this morning.
I wanted to add another threat, and the dragon can act as a pseudo-tithe when I need it to, so it seemed like a clear choice for me.
It shouldn't be either/or. Run both. You lose nothing by doing so. Let me reiterate. There is absolutely no drawback in running Tithe in mono-white EDH. Especially when it's control. I just don't get it when people have this "It doesn't do enough" mentality.
It shouldn't be either/or. Run both. You lose nothing by doing so. Let me reiterate. There is absolutely no drawback in running Tithe in mono-white EDH. Especially when it's control. I just don't get it when people have this "It doesn't do enough" mentality.
TK! It's been ages - good to see you're still alive.
I think in this case I need to respectfully disagree. Tithe is great. I love Tithe. But to say that there is no drawback to including it in a list is a bit facetious. Yes, it is amazing in the early game. Yes, you can essentially cycle it away in the late game if you're set on lands. But the problem is that it isn't cycling at that point. You are guaranteed to get land on this draw, and no chance that your "land" is going to be anything but another land.
Granted, this does improve your odds of drawing business spells in all subsequent draws. And it can fetch your Mistveil Plains. And it offers a shuffle effect to give you a chance to see new cards off a 'Top or a Crystal Ball. I'm not arguing that there is no use at all in running it.
One thing you are losing out on, is not card advantage, but you are spending an "opportunity cost" on running this in your deck in favor of something else. Every change I make to the deck is difficult, because I like all of the cards in it. I like having the chance of drawing them in every game. There are situations at all points in any given game where I'd love to have these in my hand. If I remove any of these from the deck in favor of a copy of Tithe, I lose out on that opportunity.
As you mentioned much earlier, one of the easiest replacements for a Tithe would be to take out a basic Plains. While effectively a land, it cannot act in this role unless I already have another W-producing land to play. In all likelihood, I could get away with this swap. However, I haven't had much chance to play the deck recently, so I can't say how often this issue would arise. For the time being, I'll put it on my list of things to keep in mind, and revisit the issue later.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
Since I haven't physically played to try it out, I decided to use math to justify it. Even after the switch, I still have better than an 85% chance of having an untapped W before my second turn. With the loose mulligan rules of EDH, I think that's good enough to squeak it in over a land. I'll keep my eye on it though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
The Trumpet is very close to being good for the deck. If it said, "All creatures gain vigilance and must attack each turn," then I'd be happy running it. But because it actively damages them when not attacking, that makes you the logical target to get rid of the effect. Even with MK on the board, I think you get the brunt of the attacks.
Armageddon may be good in certain situations for the deck, but if I was going to run a land sweeper, I would go with Catastrophe. I'd get the option of land sweeper if I could take advantage, but also have the option of creature wipe, which is more likely.
In one-on-one, no this deck won't perform well against those. In practice, I've done fine against them in 4+ player games. That's fine. I'm not trying to make this 1v1 competitive. If you're worried about prevalent Voltron style decks against this, fetch a Crackdown from the deck to stop them in their tracks.
Thanks! I have been thinking of the Fox off and on since Innistrad was released. I think I've gone back and forth at least 10 times between Silverchase Fox, Dispeller's Capsule, and the Ronom Unicorn. I have ways of recurring all of them, and they all have benefits to their inclusion. It's one of those things that you can modify to fit best within your own metagame. I don't have much recursion of enchantments in mine, so I've sort of put the Fox to the end of preference for the moment.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
Granted my MBC deck has a similar problem, and I've still not yet gotten an idea as to how to stop that.
My deck is not particularly tilted towards battling a combo heavy metagame, I'll admit readily. However, in my real-life playgroups, I have never run against a dedicated combo build. If you are particularly concerned about the combo matchup, feel free to make any adjustments to assist with that. I list several options in my original post for very strong anti-combo measures, such as Solitary Confinement, Ethersworn Canonist, Lapse of Certainty, and Jester's Cap.
Against blue decks, I have never had significant issues in a multiplayer game. A dedicated blue control deck is going to be spread relatively thin outside of a 1v1 game, and by the time it gets down to you vs. them, you should have a decent enough board state to build off of. Again, if this is a matchup you are overly concerned about, you can modify the deck to include more threats with flash, or more threats they cannot attack on traditional means, such as man-lands (Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus support plays well with Weathered Wayfarer).
Anyway, an update:
I'm finally completely fed up with my Jade Monolith, so I'm making it a priority to replace it with a Forcefield. I've also been winning a lot of games on Cockatrice on the back of Cataclysm, so I'm going to try replacing Mass Calcify with a copy of Catastrophe to get another chance at that magic.
-Jade Monolith / +Forcefield
-Mass Calcify / +Catastrophe
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
-Transcendent Master / +Baneslayer Angel
-Wing Shards / +Mouth of Ronom
Baneslayer took the place of my Transcendent Master for a few reasons. I wanted a threat and I still wanted something with lifelink to help me out if I should ever start to dip too far (which was honestly my favorite part about the TM). With my efforts to get the overall mana curve lower in this deck, I decided that Baneslayer was better for me right away without needing to spend another 6+ mana through level-up to get the aforementioned benefits I was looking for. It's just a matter of picking the most efficient option for that slot.
I finally convinced myself to pull the Wing Shards out of the deck. I think it may have been one of the last ties to the old Onslaught era MWC decks (which makes me a little sad to lose), but I think it was the best choice for my deck. Adding the Mouth of Ronom in here brings my land count to a place I'm happier with. It also adds a Snow-type permanent to add synergy with my Scrying Sheets, and adds more synergy as a self-sacrificing land to pair with Crucible of Worlds.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
Short answer: Yes.
I'm running the Mystifying Maze and Kor Haven as my preferred "Maze effects" just because both of them produce mana on their own. Maze of Ith is obviously fantastic and is more mana efficient than either of those two, but it can't tap for mana. This dilutes the effectiveness of Land Tax by just a little bit by always needing to have additional lands in play. I'm riding my Land Tax pretty hard with this list, so I don't know if I want to do that.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
Thanks again for sharing this deck. I'm almost done putting it together!
Well, traditionally I really liked having the Lens as a 3 mana option. It can come down without acceleration on turn 3, and give you access to 6 W the next turn. By splitting my mana doublers between a lower and higher cost option, the theory is that I can get access to this effect at whatever stage of the game I really need it. Running my snow-covered mana-base is also helpful with the Lens, and negates a lot of the splash-damage that could come from other players taking advantage of the Lens that I cast for my benefit.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
How good is charbelcher?
Because I have Added some cards from your list to my list of things to maybe add I was wondering if I could post your list in my thread with a link to this thread?
Check it out http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436206.
Thanx to Bookworm10 for the Sig.
Check out my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThyrixSyx
Cockatrice: shadowkill
Rules Adviser
Thanks. I always love hearing that
I think Charbelcher is a pretty decent option for a win-con. Your list and mine are currently only able to win through creature damage (I may have missed an alternate win-con when looking through your deck). If you're worried about something like an Blazing Archon that hits the board and can't be answered for some reason, then having that alternate win possibility is certainly worth consideration. If you were running both the Endless Horizons and a Land Tax in your deck, then I'd say it was worth a slot.
Sure, feel free to talk about it or direct people over here as you'd like. Just don't put words in my mouth and we'll never have a problem.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
You didn't feel like looking like 2 posts above you?
Really, I only wanted two of the effects in the deck. I prefer the two that are in there now, since they have a lower cmc. I don't really know that I need a third "mana doubler" in the deck.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
@LimDul945: How did you write "by cmc" in the decklist in the spoiler?
I'd like to put your name in that place in your decklist on my thread.
Thanx to Bookworm10 for the Sig.
Check out my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThyrixSyx
Cockatrice: shadowkill
Rules Adviser
-Dust Elemental, Luminarch Ascension / +Sword of Fire and Ice, Stoneforge Mystic
Luminarch made me too much of a target, to the point that I never got it active anymore. Dust Elemental was cute, but I don't think I've actually cast it in about a year. The two additions should keep the mana curve low, while providing me with two phenomenal sources of card advantage.
Also, thank you to the primer committee for approving my list to be an official primer. I hope everyone enjoys it!
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
________________STANDARD________________
UBW Soorani Esper Control UBW
UBW Nicholas Spagnolo's Drownyard Control UBW
___________________EDH___________________
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB
W Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker W
Other People's Decks: Lots More!
Thanks for the shout-out Sheldon!
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
-Reya Dawnbringer / +Angel of Serenity
Also updated the OP to reflect these reasonings.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
It shouldn't be either/or. Run both. You lose nothing by doing so. Let me reiterate. There is absolutely no drawback in running Tithe in mono-white EDH. Especially when it's control. I just don't get it when people have this "It doesn't do enough" mentality.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
TK! It's been ages - good to see you're still alive.
I think in this case I need to respectfully disagree. Tithe is great. I love Tithe. But to say that there is no drawback to including it in a list is a bit facetious. Yes, it is amazing in the early game. Yes, you can essentially cycle it away in the late game if you're set on lands. But the problem is that it isn't cycling at that point. You are guaranteed to get land on this draw, and no chance that your "land" is going to be anything but another land.
Granted, this does improve your odds of drawing business spells in all subsequent draws. And it can fetch your Mistveil Plains. And it offers a shuffle effect to give you a chance to see new cards off a 'Top or a Crystal Ball. I'm not arguing that there is no use at all in running it.
One thing you are losing out on, is not card advantage, but you are spending an "opportunity cost" on running this in your deck in favor of something else. Every change I make to the deck is difficult, because I like all of the cards in it. I like having the chance of drawing them in every game. There are situations at all points in any given game where I'd love to have these in my hand. If I remove any of these from the deck in favor of a copy of Tithe, I lose out on that opportunity.
As you mentioned much earlier, one of the easiest replacements for a Tithe would be to take out a basic Plains. While effectively a land, it cannot act in this role unless I already have another W-producing land to play. In all likelihood, I could get away with this swap. However, I haven't had much chance to play the deck recently, so I can't say how often this issue would arise. For the time being, I'll put it on my list of things to keep in mind, and revisit the issue later.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
-Snow-Covered Plains / +Tithe
Since I haven't physically played to try it out, I decided to use math to justify it. Even after the switch, I still have better than an 85% chance of having an untapped W before my second turn. With the loose mulligan rules of EDH, I think that's good enough to squeak it in over a land. I'll keep my eye on it though.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
-Saltblast, Vesuva / +Blind Obedience, Thespian's Stage
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
(Belated) Thanks for the shout-out, Carlos.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW