Wow Night Soil is out hu??? It seems like a really solid rebuild card but I can understand that it has problems in the early game.
Any thoughts on Wonder? I had been sort of contemplating how solid of a creature it is. It is a bit slow to use as a beater as it is just a 2/2 flyer for 4 mana. I know it is good when it dies but I sort of like creatures that are good when I drop them for this type of deck.
Also do you feel like we might want to look at any more wincons like some sort of Overrun varrient? I only see the Beastmaster Ascension currently on the list. Other than that you are relying on hitting for incriments of 1-2 damage for the most of your deck. Again Eldrazi Monument might be totally amazing in this role. Even if you want to blow out all artifacts on a normal basis, Drop a monument and you probably just win.
You don't think Flying Men is going to get us there by himself!? I don't think the deck is going to need a lot of win conditions with the draw power it has available. In addition to the Ascension both Kamahl and Avenger of Zendikar can finish people off and Turbulent Dreams is kind of a win condition as well. I'm going to keep Wonder for now but if it doesn't work out too well or I find I need more win conditions I'll throw a Monument in.
EDIT: I'd also be fine keeping Night Soil, I was just at a loss with what to cut. Still not quite sure if I have enough basics for the Pioneer to be reliable in the early game so I could reverse that change.
I run Wonder, but I also run both Nostalgic and Turbulent Dreams, as well as Fauna Shaman. He's not hard to get in the boneyard.
For Overrun effects, I run Eldrazi Monument, Beastmaster Ascension, Triumph of the Horde, and Garruk Wildspeaker. Notorious Throng also has the same effect of forcing through a ton of damage and winning the game.
The thing about taking 3 turns in a row is that the game is almost always over at the end of the third turn. With that many turns, you will be digging really deep and either draw an Overrun or Mind over Matter + Groundskeeper. As long as you take your turns quickly, the only issue people will have with Time Walk effects is that they won't get another turn because you've already won.
I love Green Sun's Zenith, largely because it fetches Arbor Dryad, making the Zenith another copy of Llanowar Elf-- it costs G and puts a 1/1 creature into play that taps for G. In the late game it's amazing to fetch out either Eladamri, Groundskeeper, or Elvish Champion.
On the subject of man lands, think only Blinkmoth and Inkmoth make the cut because A) they cost only 1 to activate and B) they have evasion. Mishra's Factory won't get through for damage and Treetop Village and Faerie Conclave cost too much to activate.
I'm trying Jitte in the build right now, as it seems exceptionally strong against other people with 1 toughness guys. It also lets you do crazy attacks against people who have minimal blockers (whereas normally just having a 2/3 guy in play is enough that you don't want to attack someone at all). But it's also 4 mana just to get going.
On the subject of counterspells, I think mana cost trumps everything here. I played Cryptic Command for a while, largely because it can tap all opposing creatures, but just keeping 4 mana up is terrible, especially if it made you not cast other spells and then they didn't cast anything worth countering. The only things you need to counter are things that remove Edric or all your creatures from play. Other than that, it doesn't matter what people do. All you want are a few well placed, cheap counters to stop the truly crippling things like Wrath of God. I think this means Mana Drain, Forbid, Arcane Denial are absolute musts. And in the maybes you have Counterspell, Negate, Voidslime, and Mystic Snake.
I've been playing Mystic Snake since the first incarnation of the deck and honestly, he's not that good. 4 mana is a lot for a hard counter and a 2/2 non-elf body without evasion rarely means much. His only saving grace is that Fauna Shaman can tutor him up. I think it's worth making room for the other three though-- Counterspell, Negate, and Voidslime.
I thought about Abjure, but the deck doesn't have enough blue permanents it can afford to sacrifice. Similar problem with Force of Will-- not enough blue cards to exile.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I guess I hadn't considered the fact that we get to draw a ton of cards every turn and thus could discard Wonder due to hand size limits and or use the dream cards to do such.
I think you are right on target on the counterspells Tedv. We need to keep the cost low or they will never be cast. I think I will pull Foil out for Negate. The fact that it stops the wrath and tuck effects is all I need and the fact that it is 1U is better than UU for counterspell. I wish I had a Mana Drain but thats just not possible currently for me.
Also thanks for the tip on the GSZ for the Dryad. I hadn't thought of that and was borderline thinking of cutting it. That makes it totally worthwhile though. I will probably cut the comes in tapped manlands due to their cost being high. I hate tapped lands as well and as you pointed out they take too much to activate every turn.
I guess I will add Turbulent Dreams as well as like you said, card draw shouldn't be a problem for this deck. Bouncing all my opponents crap off of cards I was going to have to discard anyways seems solid.
EDIT: Hummm has anyone tried adding Vedalken Shackles to this list??? It seems really cool for thefting early game drops or just stealing opposing commanders. Also I feel like it would combat Homeward Path a lot better than Treachery as well.
Thanks a lot for your continued feedback guys, the deck is really shaping up nicely. I'll go into more detail as to why I don't want to continually recur Time Walks. If I do so I've basically won, no argument there. My playgroup has some very slow players and we've been playing only 5+ man games lately so it can take a long time in between turns already so there is a stigma about extra turn cards that makes people dislike them more than they otherwise would and this in turn causes decks running those cards to draw more hate than they otherwise would. Taking an excessive number of turns, even if I end up winning, is just going to make people mad and will make it more likely that I'll draw more hate in the future. Even worse it will cause me to draw more hate when I play my other decks even if they aren't running extra turn cards because people will remember me taking a bunch of turns in a row with this deck. Believe if I could force my playgroup to only make rational decisions I would but people get emotional and try to hate me out if I play frowned upon strategies so I simply avoid them so people don't have an excuse to attack me for no reason.
I'd like to try the deck out with the current number of win conditions but I'll up my counterspell count a bit. It looks like I also forgot to cut Sakashima in that last update so she's out to make room for GSZ.
You could always run Thada Adel, Acquisitor as part of your artifact hate package. If someone runs some sort of blue combo you can use it to just swing in and exile parts of their artifact package. I would be fairly pissed off is someone were stealing my sol ring, top, trinket mage package using this. It has islandwalk which is very good as well so it has evasion to punch in. If you dont have anything better to do in your turn you might as well steal some artifacts as well.
Also, how effective is Nature's Will in your list? I guess I have a hard time really weighing how effective it is.
You could always run Thada Adel, Acquisitor as part of your artifact hate package. If someone runs some sort of blue combo you can use it to just swing in and exile parts of their artifact package. I would be fairly pissed off is someone were stealing my sol ring, top, trinket mage package using this. It has islandwalk which is very good as well so it has evasion to punch in. If you dont have anything better to do in your turn you might as well steal some artifacts as well.
I like Thada Adel a lot, I even have a Thada deck. With this deck though I suspect I will be using all or most of my mana to keep building up my board position with dorks or occasionally holding up mana for counters. In addition to that I really want stuff that can swing in for damage and there aren't very many artifact creatures that are widely played. This is just theorizing on my part, she may be amazing but for now I want to try the deck out a little bit and see how it does before I put her in.
Keep in mind that you dont have to cast the artifacts, you can just attack and exile them. Also I think there would be several turns where attacking with her and pulling a sol ring out will accelerate you rather than set you back mana.
EDIT: Also if it rolls into the late game I love the idea of using her to pull Duplicants out of opponents decks and cast them. You can steal opponents Phyrexian Metamorphs and kill off commanders to boot. I think it is worth the slot for the diversity of her.
She can also be substituted for some graveyard hate as she can tutor up opposing relics to hate on the yards.
Keep in mind that you dont have to cast the artifacts, you can just attack and exile them. Also I think there would be several turns where attacking with her and pulling a sol ring out will accelerate you rather than set you back mana.
That's a good point. When I build the deck on MTGO it will be missing a lot of the more expensive stuff so I should have plenty of room to try her out.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Prove to people, "no, you really are taking twice as much time as everyone else. Please hurry up." All for the low cost of $60.
Oh believe me they already know they are taking an excessive amount of time. I am also guilty of this as well despite being a pretty quick player in other formats such as draft. We are pretty strict about rules and take backs so our games play out similar to how they would if we were all in a tournament. Fetchlands are cracked at EOT, top is used at EOT as are tutors, etc. Additionally we keep pretty extensive records of wins/losses so while there are no prizes we are playing for bragging rights which is a big incentive for everyone to bring their A game and play their best which means thinking through all your decisions. Lastly the person who's house we meet up at is just an extremely slow Magic player and we have another player that could probably go to time at a PTQ playing RDW so people have the mindset of "if they are playing so slow I'm going to slow down and thoroughly think about my plays too". It's not uncommon for someone to cast something like Praetor's Grasp and take 3 minutes searching an opponents library. I've brought it up many times but the excuse is always "I have a lot to think about" or "I have a lot of cards in my hand". Trying to explain to them that the rules still require them to make decisions in a timely manner has been unsuccessful so far.
When I was a judge and had to warn people about slow play, the best two lines I had were:
"I'm not here because I'm accusing you of slow play. I'm here to make sure I don't have to make that accusation."
"Having a complicated board state does not excuse you from making your decisions in a timely fashion."
On the subject of Thada, I played her but eventually cut her. Three mana is way too much for a creature that's mostly just evasion, and the double blue is surprisingly painful. Casting free Sol Rings isn't as good as you'd think either, largely because this deck has very little use for Sol Ring. This is one of the few decks where I don't want to draw Sol Ring in my opening hand, since it usually means I'll have one less attacker by turn 3.
Nature's Will was on my list of cards to seriously consider but it never made the cut. The up front cost is painful and the effect isn't that great. I play Sword of Feast and Famine though. It costs one more, but you can split the cost over multiple turns, it actually pumps up the creature, and it gives protection (and most likely evasion as a result). The discard effect isn't bad. I still might cut the sword though, since at least Memnite would be free and draw cards.
Actually that's not a terrible idea. Do you think Memnite makes the cut here? He seems ridiculously good in the opening hand, and a fine draw mid game since he costs nothing to cast. I'm already playing Basking Rootwalla.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Humm... random thought but what do you think about Memnite??? The whole free to play it aspects seems cool but I worry about the fact that it has no evasion. Dropping an extra turn 1 creature though sounds very win though. When drawing a ton of cards off of Edric it seems like it would be nice to have a free drop creature as well.
EDIT: I can sort of see the problem with Thada in here... hummm thats tough I might cut her. I might even cut out sol ring. Do you feel that Mox Diamond might have a place in this deck?
Well I'm playing Coiling Oracle and Elvish Visionary, and those only give +1 card as well. (Though they are also elves.) Memnite should give +1 card for being in play earlier. In theory. How good he actually is will depend on the likelihood of opponents having blockers, I suspect.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Well... early in the game a lot of metas have at least one guy that is slow rolling. Even if its only for the first punch or two it seems like it could be really powerful. If someone else has creatures early on then they have to split their defenses or potentially sac utility / mana critters. I personally dont see much early game out of my meta. I think I will add him for at least some test games.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
"Having a complicated board state does not excuse you from making your decisions in a timely fashion."
This is the main issue because a couple of guys feel it does. They will argue with judges about it at events even though they always loose the argument. Then they'll complain to me about how unfair it is the judge made them play fast because "I had 10 cards in my hand!". They truly feel that a complicated board state justifies taking 15 minute turns.:shrug:
Nature's Will was on my list of cards to seriously consider but it never made the cut. The up front cost is painful and the effect isn't that great. I play Sword of Feast and Famine though. It costs one more, but you can split the cost over multiple turns, it actually pumps up the creature, and it gives protection (and most likely evasion as a result). The discard effect isn't bad. I still might cut the sword though, since at least Memnite would be free and draw cards.
Similar to the sword I like how it is essentially free to cast and will often ramp you. Counterspells are also pretty common in our group so that is a little added bonus (though not much, I can't see Flying Men drawing out a Cryptic Command).
Actually that's not a terrible idea. Do you think Memnite makes the cut here? He seems ridiculously good in the opening hand, and a fine draw mid game since he costs nothing to cast. I'm already playing Basking Rootwalla.
Without having even played this deck I can't really evaluate how important evasion is. The sample hands I saw in deckstats would probably be really happy with him though making for some really explosive opening draws.
I'm playing Ohran Viper in my build and he's proven to be very versatile; he's very strong if he connects and he's a good chump blocker. He doesn't have traditional evasion but his pseudo-deathtouch causes players to give blocking a second thought.
I'm still interested in which elves you've decided to play, tedv.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Is Tolaria West worth the potential to slow the deck down??? I love how it can turn into some optional 0 drop creatures and some solid land but I feel like it slows the deck down a lot. Crop Rotation is at least really cheap to cast and the new land usually replaces the activation cost of the rotation.
The west on the otherhand comes in tapped if you need it and it costs us 3 mana to cycle off. This means we really never want it until late in the game as our early drops are far more important than cycling this usually. I could potentially see a turn 4 cycle to go get Gaea's Cradle. Shy of that though I feel like its sort of a weak land for this deck.
Three is a ton of mana, and double blue makes it worse. There's a G1 tutor for land which I'd play over it, but I think even at 2 mana it's too much. Crop Rotation is definitely good though.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I was thinking about potentially increasing my 1 mana creatures even further. If I can opening hand 3 of them that is just more threats I can get in before Edric comes down.
While forestwalk is probably the best landwalk in my opinion for EDH I suppose Islandwalk is right up there close as well. You dont run into a game with no other blue players that often. One drop creatures are also a lot easier to drop into play when drawing like crazy due to their low cost.
Another card I think I might end up running is Steely Resolve. I dont run tribal or anything but Lightning Greaves still has an opening for opponents to zap him. While the haste off the greaves is totally amazing, resolve closes the opening to zap Edric. Any thoughts on it? low cost to drop and it protects well.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Good points on Tolaria West. I always throw it in my blue decks but for this one it is too slow. Yesterday I built a budget list on MTGO that was about 20 cards short and I filled in the gaps with cheaper options.
Game 1: Jhoira of the Ghitu, Karthus, Tyrant of Jund, Hanna, Ships Navigator & me. This game is a complete disaster. I keep a 6 card hand I should have thrown back and get punished for it by not drawing a blue source until turn 6 or 7. To make things worse Jhoira, who is on the play, drops turn 2 signet, turn 3 Paradox Haze, turn 4 Jhoira suspend Niv-Mizzet so there is an active dragon in play on turn 6 to wipe my board. I don't do much else until I die and my non-Jhoira opponents are having mana issues as well with Karthus not making his 4th land on turn 9 and Hanna not making his 5th land drop until turn 10 despite drawing several cards off Rhystic Study. Not a good start but mostly my fault for not taking a mulligan.
0-1
Game 3: Me, Kangee, Aerie Keeper, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. I am on the play and keep a decent hand. Turn 1 Memnite, Treetop Scout, turn 3 Edric. I swing in to draw cards but Edric eats a Lightning Bolt so I have to settle for 2 damage. Kangee is bird tribal and starts dropping down birds. Niv-Mizzet drops Tibor and Lumia turn 5 and on turn 6 plays Risky Move (a chaos deck apparently) to sweep my dorks but I have Caller of the Claw to recover. My note taking ends around here but I believe I drop Edric next turn and he stays in play for the remainder of the game. I think Niv-Mizzet drops into play and I steal it with Sower of Temptation. Me and Kangee are both swinging in and drawing cards but his board is developing faster than mine. Momir comes down, tutors for a card that eludes me right now then starts traveling around the table because of Risky Move. I remember Momir also dropping a Nim Deathmantle at some point because I had a 3/3 intimidate Pilgrim's Eye zombie in play. I believe Kangee would have won this game but he let us know he had to leave so he scoops with my remaining opponents at less than 20 life and a weak board making for an easy win.
2-1
Nothing really stood out as really amazing or terrible for me. I was happy with Caller of the Claw and Nature's Will was free to cast in game 3 and useful just as a ramp card. Having Edric removed game 3 was really painful and set me back several turns and I imagine tucking would have been even worse so I'll probably look into adding another tutor or 2 in case that happens. Still undecided on Memnite but at least for my budget list he'll stay in for awhile.
EDIT: I ran both Grayscaled Gharial and Merfolk Spy in place of things that weren't available on MTGO. They're certainly servicable and would have been unblockable almost the entire time I played yesterday.
Good points on Tolaria West. I always throw it in my blue decks but for this one it is too slow. Yesterday I built a budget list on MTGO that was about 20 cards short and I filled in the gaps with cheaper options.
Game 1: Jhoira of the Ghitu, Karthus, Tyrant of Jund, Hanna, Ships Navigator & me. This game is a complete disaster. I keep a 6 card hand I should have thrown back and get punished for it by not drawing a blue source until turn 6 or 7. To make things worse Jhoira, who is on the play, drops turn 2 signet, turn 3 Paradox Haze, turn 4 Jhoira suspend Niv-Mizzet so there is an active dragon in play on turn 6 to wipe my board. I don't do much else until I die and my non-Jhoira opponents are having mana issues as well with Karthus not making his 4th land on turn 9 and Hanna not making his 5th land drop until turn 10 despite drawing several cards off Rhystic Study. Not a good start but mostly my fault for not taking a mulligan.
0-1
Game 3: Me, Kangee, Aerie Keeper, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. I am on the play and keep a decent hand. Turn 1 Memnite, Treetop Scout, turn 3 Edric. I swing in to draw cards but Edric eats a Lightning Bolt so I have to settle for 2 damage. Kangee is bird tribal and starts dropping down birds. Niv-Mizzet drops Tibor and Lumia turn 5 and on turn 6 plays Risky Move (a chaos deck apparently) to sweep my dorks but I have Caller of the Claw to recover. My note taking ends around here but I believe I drop Edric next turn and he stays in play for the remainder of the game. I think Niv-Mizzet drops into play and I steal it with Sower of Temptation. Me and Kangee are both swinging in and drawing cards but his board is developing faster than mine. Momir comes down, tutors for a card that eludes me right now then starts traveling around the table because of Risky Move. I remember Momir also dropping a Nim Deathmantle at some point because I had a 3/3 intimidate Pilgrim's Eye zombie in play. I believe Kangee would have won this game but he let us know he had to leave so he scoops with my remaining opponents at less than 20 life and a weak board making for an easy win.
2-1
Nothing really stood out as really amazing or terrible for me. I was happy with Caller of the Claw and Nature's Will was free to cast in game 3 and useful just as a ramp card. Having Edric removed game 3 was really painful and set me back several turns and I imagine tucking would have been even worse so I'll probably look into adding another tutor or 2 in case that happens. Still undecided on Memnite but at least for my budget list he'll stay in for awhile.
EDIT: I ran both Grayscaled Gharial and Merfolk Spy in place of things that weren't available on MTGO. They're certainly servicable and would have been unblockable almost the entire time I played yesterday.
First of all... who the hell runs bolt in EDH :o??? I dont think I have ever seen it played. Odd oh well
I was also thinking of adding City of Brass to my list. Fixing the manabase is sort of tough in these colors and I would be willing to take a few damage to set up my board in the early game.
Also... I figured that spot removal for Edric would be a problem. Sadly there just aren't great options to stop it.
EDIT: I was sort of looking at Patagia Viper as well for the list. 3 creatures into play for 4 mana, one of which has flying seems somewhat solid.
As for green tutors... I think I might look into running Summoner's Pact I like how I can pay for it the next turn which means I can tutor for and drop Edric into play first. The other option for this deck might be Chord of Calling due to its convoke cost I think we could effectively tutor Edric into play at the end of opponents turns using critters as mana dorks to cast it.
First of all... who the hell runs bolt in EDH :o??? I dont think I have ever seen it played. Odd oh well
I was also thinking of adding City of Brass to my list. Fixing the manabase is sort of tough in these colors and I would be willing to take a few damage to set up my board in the early game.
Also... I figured that spot removal for Edric would be a problem. Sadly there just aren't great options to stop it.
EDIT: I was sort of looking at Patagia Viper as well for the list. 3 creatures into play for 4 mana, one of which has flying seems somewhat solid.
As for green tutors... I think I might look into running Summoner's Pact I like how I can pay for it the next turn which means I can tutor for and drop Edric into play first. The other option for this deck might be Chord of Calling due to its convoke cost I think we could effectively tutor Edric into play at the end of opponents turns using critters as mana dorks to cast it.
He said he was new to the format but it didn't matter if it was a Lightning Bolt or an actual good card like STP, my general still got killed and it sucked. I didn't realize quite how fast this deck was going to be so I am also going to add in City of Brass, probably over Tolaria West. I'm not really sure about the Viper, 4 mana is actually a lot of mana for this deck to spend but you do get 3 dorks from it so it has potential. For tutors I think I am going to try and get a Sylvan Tutor. It normally has a big drawback of being a sorcery but this deck can get around that because Edric can draw you into the card you tutored for. It's kind of pricey for a crappy tutor though. A couple other cards I'm thinking about are more fast mana in the form of Lotus Petal & Elvish Spirit Guide but I'm going to play the deck more as is to see how useful they would be.
Arent we trying to run tutors somewhat as a plan for if someone tucks Edric though? Sylvan Tutor is going to crawl if someone tucks Edric and you have to spend 2 turns pulling him back up.
As for Lotus Petal vs Elvish Spirit Guide, I think it comes down to the fact that the Spirit Guide is always a bad creature at 3 mana. This leads me to believe that the Petal would be superior as it can be used for mana of any color. If you run one of them the Petal is the one I think.
You are probably right that Patagia Viper isnt so great at 4 mana... ohhh well
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I've been very interested in color fixers as well, and had considered City of Brass. Exotic Orchard is probably a good choice, especially for multiplayer games. Here's a full gatherer search of interesting stuff to play:
Looking over that list, other potential options include Ancient Ziggurat, City of Brass, Exotic Orchard, Lotus Vale, Thran Quarry. How good Lotus Vale is depends heavily on how many strip mines and wastelands people play. It seems ridiculously good to untap with Snap / Cloud of Faeries / Frantic Search. I'll definitely play City of Brass and Thran Quarry though.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Hummm Thran Quarry should be an interesting add. This deck needs the opening hand manabase to work out right away and so I think it might be worth running. It has a downside but by the time it might kick in you are beyond the early game mana and it probably doesn't matter anymore.
I guess I will have to give it some thought. Normally I dont like lands with drawbacks that might destroy the land but it might be worth it in here...
EDIT: do you have an updated decklist somewhere Tedv? I would be interested to see what you are currently running.
You don't think Flying Men is going to get us there by himself!? I don't think the deck is going to need a lot of win conditions with the draw power it has available. In addition to the Ascension both Kamahl and Avenger of Zendikar can finish people off and Turbulent Dreams is kind of a win condition as well. I'm going to keep Wonder for now but if it doesn't work out too well or I find I need more win conditions I'll throw a Monument in.
EDIT: I'd also be fine keeping Night Soil, I was just at a loss with what to cut. Still not quite sure if I have enough basics for the Pioneer to be reliable in the early game so I could reverse that change.
For Overrun effects, I run Eldrazi Monument, Beastmaster Ascension, Triumph of the Horde, and Garruk Wildspeaker. Notorious Throng also has the same effect of forcing through a ton of damage and winning the game.
The thing about taking 3 turns in a row is that the game is almost always over at the end of the third turn. With that many turns, you will be digging really deep and either draw an Overrun or Mind over Matter + Groundskeeper. As long as you take your turns quickly, the only issue people will have with Time Walk effects is that they won't get another turn because you've already won.
I love Green Sun's Zenith, largely because it fetches Arbor Dryad, making the Zenith another copy of Llanowar Elf-- it costs G and puts a 1/1 creature into play that taps for G. In the late game it's amazing to fetch out either Eladamri, Groundskeeper, or Elvish Champion.
On the subject of man lands, think only Blinkmoth and Inkmoth make the cut because A) they cost only 1 to activate and B) they have evasion. Mishra's Factory won't get through for damage and Treetop Village and Faerie Conclave cost too much to activate.
I'm trying Jitte in the build right now, as it seems exceptionally strong against other people with 1 toughness guys. It also lets you do crazy attacks against people who have minimal blockers (whereas normally just having a 2/3 guy in play is enough that you don't want to attack someone at all). But it's also 4 mana just to get going.
On the subject of counterspells, I think mana cost trumps everything here. I played Cryptic Command for a while, largely because it can tap all opposing creatures, but just keeping 4 mana up is terrible, especially if it made you not cast other spells and then they didn't cast anything worth countering. The only things you need to counter are things that remove Edric or all your creatures from play. Other than that, it doesn't matter what people do. All you want are a few well placed, cheap counters to stop the truly crippling things like Wrath of God. I think this means Mana Drain, Forbid, Arcane Denial are absolute musts. And in the maybes you have Counterspell, Negate, Voidslime, and Mystic Snake.
I've been playing Mystic Snake since the first incarnation of the deck and honestly, he's not that good. 4 mana is a lot for a hard counter and a 2/2 non-elf body without evasion rarely means much. His only saving grace is that Fauna Shaman can tutor him up. I think it's worth making room for the other three though-- Counterspell, Negate, and Voidslime.
I thought about Abjure, but the deck doesn't have enough blue permanents it can afford to sacrifice. Similar problem with Force of Will-- not enough blue cards to exile.
I think you are right on target on the counterspells Tedv. We need to keep the cost low or they will never be cast. I think I will pull Foil out for Negate. The fact that it stops the wrath and tuck effects is all I need and the fact that it is 1U is better than UU for counterspell. I wish I had a Mana Drain but thats just not possible currently for me.
Also thanks for the tip on the GSZ for the Dryad. I hadn't thought of that and was borderline thinking of cutting it. That makes it totally worthwhile though. I will probably cut the comes in tapped manlands due to their cost being high. I hate tapped lands as well and as you pointed out they take too much to activate every turn.
I guess I will add Turbulent Dreams as well as like you said, card draw shouldn't be a problem for this deck. Bouncing all my opponents crap off of cards I was going to have to discard anyways seems solid.
EDIT: Hummm has anyone tried adding Vedalken Shackles to this list??? It seems really cool for thefting early game drops or just stealing opposing commanders. Also I feel like it would combat Homeward Path a lot better than Treachery as well.
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I'd like to try the deck out with the current number of win conditions but I'll up my counterspell count a bit. It looks like I also forgot to cut Sakashima in that last update so she's out to make room for GSZ.
-Treetop Village
-Faerie Conclave
-Hinder
-Sakashima
-Spiketail Hatchling
+Negate
+Counterspell
+Green Sun's Zenith
+Island
+Forest
Also, how effective is Nature's Will in your list? I guess I have a hard time really weighing how effective it is.
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I like Thada Adel a lot, I even have a Thada deck. With this deck though I suspect I will be using all or most of my mana to keep building up my board position with dorks or occasionally holding up mana for counters. In addition to that I really want stuff that can swing in for damage and there aren't very many artifact creatures that are widely played. This is just theorizing on my part, she may be amazing but for now I want to try the deck out a little bit and see how it does before I put her in.
EDIT: Also if it rolls into the late game I love the idea of using her to pull Duplicants out of opponents decks and cast them. You can steal opponents Phyrexian Metamorphs and kill off commanders to boot. I think it is worth the slot for the diversity of her.
She can also be substituted for some graveyard hate as she can tutor up opposing relics to hate on the yards.
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That's a good point. When I build the deck on MTGO it will be missing a lot of the more expensive stuff so I should have plenty of room to try her out.
Prove to people, "no, you really are taking twice as much time as everyone else. Please hurry up." All for the low cost of $60.
Oh believe me they already know they are taking an excessive amount of time. I am also guilty of this as well despite being a pretty quick player in other formats such as draft. We are pretty strict about rules and take backs so our games play out similar to how they would if we were all in a tournament. Fetchlands are cracked at EOT, top is used at EOT as are tutors, etc. Additionally we keep pretty extensive records of wins/losses so while there are no prizes we are playing for bragging rights which is a big incentive for everyone to bring their A game and play their best which means thinking through all your decisions. Lastly the person who's house we meet up at is just an extremely slow Magic player and we have another player that could probably go to time at a PTQ playing RDW so people have the mindset of "if they are playing so slow I'm going to slow down and thoroughly think about my plays too". It's not uncommon for someone to cast something like Praetor's Grasp and take 3 minutes searching an opponents library. I've brought it up many times but the excuse is always "I have a lot to think about" or "I have a lot of cards in my hand". Trying to explain to them that the rules still require them to make decisions in a timely manner has been unsuccessful so far.
"I'm not here because I'm accusing you of slow play. I'm here to make sure I don't have to make that accusation."
"Having a complicated board state does not excuse you from making your decisions in a timely fashion."
On the subject of Thada, I played her but eventually cut her. Three mana is way too much for a creature that's mostly just evasion, and the double blue is surprisingly painful. Casting free Sol Rings isn't as good as you'd think either, largely because this deck has very little use for Sol Ring. This is one of the few decks where I don't want to draw Sol Ring in my opening hand, since it usually means I'll have one less attacker by turn 3.
Nature's Will was on my list of cards to seriously consider but it never made the cut. The up front cost is painful and the effect isn't that great. I play Sword of Feast and Famine though. It costs one more, but you can split the cost over multiple turns, it actually pumps up the creature, and it gives protection (and most likely evasion as a result). The discard effect isn't bad. I still might cut the sword though, since at least Memnite would be free and draw cards.
Actually that's not a terrible idea. Do you think Memnite makes the cut here? He seems ridiculously good in the opening hand, and a fine draw mid game since he costs nothing to cast. I'm already playing Basking Rootwalla.
EDIT: I can sort of see the problem with Thada in here... hummm thats tough I might cut her. I might even cut out sol ring. Do you feel that Mox Diamond might have a place in this deck?
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This is the main issue because a couple of guys feel it does. They will argue with judges about it at events even though they always loose the argument. Then they'll complain to me about how unfair it is the judge made them play fast because "I had 10 cards in my hand!". They truly feel that a complicated board state justifies taking 15 minute turns.:shrug:
Similar to the sword I like how it is essentially free to cast and will often ramp you. Counterspells are also pretty common in our group so that is a little added bonus (though not much, I can't see Flying Men drawing out a Cryptic Command).
Without having even played this deck I can't really evaluate how important evasion is. The sample hands I saw in deckstats would probably be really happy with him though making for some really explosive opening draws.
I'm still interested in which elves you've decided to play, tedv.
The west on the otherhand comes in tapped if you need it and it costs us 3 mana to cycle off. This means we really never want it until late in the game as our early drops are far more important than cycling this usually. I could potentially see a turn 4 cycle to go get Gaea's Cradle. Shy of that though I feel like its sort of a weak land for this deck.
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I was looking at running:
Grayscaled Gharial
Merfolk Spy
While forestwalk is probably the best landwalk in my opinion for EDH I suppose Islandwalk is right up there close as well. You dont run into a game with no other blue players that often. One drop creatures are also a lot easier to drop into play when drawing like crazy due to their low cost.
Another card I think I might end up running is Steely Resolve. I dont run tribal or anything but Lightning Greaves still has an opening for opponents to zap him. While the haste off the greaves is totally amazing, resolve closes the opening to zap Edric. Any thoughts on it? low cost to drop and it protects well.
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Game 1: Jhoira of the Ghitu, Karthus, Tyrant of Jund, Hanna, Ships Navigator & me. This game is a complete disaster. I keep a 6 card hand I should have thrown back and get punished for it by not drawing a blue source until turn 6 or 7. To make things worse Jhoira, who is on the play, drops turn 2 signet, turn 3 Paradox Haze, turn 4 Jhoira suspend Niv-Mizzet so there is an active dragon in play on turn 6 to wipe my board. I don't do much else until I die and my non-Jhoira opponents are having mana issues as well with Karthus not making his 4th land on turn 9 and Hanna not making his 5th land drop until turn 10 despite drawing several cards off Rhystic Study. Not a good start but mostly my fault for not taking a mulligan.
0-1
Game 2: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Oros the Avenger, Hazezon Tamar, me. This game is the opposite of the first with me keeping a great hand of turn 1 Scryb Sprites, turn 2 Lightning Greaves, turn 3 Edric beat for 3. The other players aren't doing much except for Hazezon who is ramping Cultivate into Explosive Vegetation. On turn 4 I drop Spiketail Hatchling and keep up mana for either Arcane Denial or Counterspell the rest of the game. GAAIV plays Darien, King of Kjeldor on turn 6 but the Oros player is still without adequate blockers so I continue beating down and drawing more and more cards every turn. A few turns later I prowl Notorious Throng, draw into Temporal Manipulation and a Beastmaster Ascension.
1-1
Game 3: Me, Kangee, Aerie Keeper, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. I am on the play and keep a decent hand. Turn 1 Memnite, Treetop Scout, turn 3 Edric. I swing in to draw cards but Edric eats a Lightning Bolt so I have to settle for 2 damage. Kangee is bird tribal and starts dropping down birds. Niv-Mizzet drops Tibor and Lumia turn 5 and on turn 6 plays Risky Move (a chaos deck apparently) to sweep my dorks but I have Caller of the Claw to recover. My note taking ends around here but I believe I drop Edric next turn and he stays in play for the remainder of the game. I think Niv-Mizzet drops into play and I steal it with Sower of Temptation. Me and Kangee are both swinging in and drawing cards but his board is developing faster than mine. Momir comes down, tutors for a card that eludes me right now then starts traveling around the table because of Risky Move. I remember Momir also dropping a Nim Deathmantle at some point because I had a 3/3 intimidate Pilgrim's Eye zombie in play. I believe Kangee would have won this game but he let us know he had to leave so he scoops with my remaining opponents at less than 20 life and a weak board making for an easy win.
2-1
Nothing really stood out as really amazing or terrible for me. I was happy with Caller of the Claw and Nature's Will was free to cast in game 3 and useful just as a ramp card. Having Edric removed game 3 was really painful and set me back several turns and I imagine tucking would have been even worse so I'll probably look into adding another tutor or 2 in case that happens. Still undecided on Memnite but at least for my budget list he'll stay in for awhile.
EDIT: I ran both Grayscaled Gharial and Merfolk Spy in place of things that weren't available on MTGO. They're certainly servicable and would have been unblockable almost the entire time I played yesterday.
First of all... who the hell runs bolt in EDH :o??? I dont think I have ever seen it played. Odd oh well
I was also thinking of adding City of Brass to my list. Fixing the manabase is sort of tough in these colors and I would be willing to take a few damage to set up my board in the early game.
Also... I figured that spot removal for Edric would be a problem. Sadly there just aren't great options to stop it.
EDIT: I was sort of looking at Patagia Viper as well for the list. 3 creatures into play for 4 mana, one of which has flying seems somewhat solid.
As for green tutors... I think I might look into running Summoner's Pact I like how I can pay for it the next turn which means I can tutor for and drop Edric into play first. The other option for this deck might be Chord of Calling due to its convoke cost I think we could effectively tutor Edric into play at the end of opponents turns using critters as mana dorks to cast it.
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He said he was new to the format but it didn't matter if it was a Lightning Bolt or an actual good card like STP, my general still got killed and it sucked. I didn't realize quite how fast this deck was going to be so I am also going to add in City of Brass, probably over Tolaria West. I'm not really sure about the Viper, 4 mana is actually a lot of mana for this deck to spend but you do get 3 dorks from it so it has potential. For tutors I think I am going to try and get a Sylvan Tutor. It normally has a big drawback of being a sorcery but this deck can get around that because Edric can draw you into the card you tutored for. It's kind of pricey for a crappy tutor though. A couple other cards I'm thinking about are more fast mana in the form of Lotus Petal & Elvish Spirit Guide but I'm going to play the deck more as is to see how useful they would be.
As for Lotus Petal vs Elvish Spirit Guide, I think it comes down to the fact that the Spirit Guide is always a bad creature at 3 mana. This leads me to believe that the Petal would be superior as it can be used for mana of any color. If you run one of them the Petal is the one I think.
You are probably right that Patagia Viper isnt so great at 4 mana... ohhh well
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//gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[any">+[color]+[mana]+![{w}]+![{r}]+![{b}]+![%22enters%20the%20battlefield%20tapped%22]&type=+[%22Land%22]"]Search
Looking over that list, other potential options include Ancient Ziggurat, City of Brass, Exotic Orchard, Lotus Vale, Thran Quarry. How good Lotus Vale is depends heavily on how many strip mines and wastelands people play. It seems ridiculously good to untap with Snap / Cloud of Faeries / Frantic Search. I'll definitely play City of Brass and Thran Quarry though.
I guess I will have to give it some thought. Normally I dont like lands with drawbacks that might destroy the land but it might be worth it in here...
EDIT: do you have an updated decklist somewhere Tedv? I would be interested to see what you are currently running.
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