The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I'm certain that City of Brass is good, though I haven't tried it here. I can confirm that Mox Diamond is beyond amazing, and this makes me suspect that Chrome Mox is also amazing.
Thran Quarry I'm apprehensive about but it should be good. It sucks to lose it after a wrath, but if a wrath resolves, we already have big problems. This won't make it much worse.
I haven't actually played the Aether Vial yet but it should in theory be good. My theory is that you'll almost always have a 1 or 2 mana creature. So Aether Vial is a 1 mana spell that taps to provide 1 or 2 mana (depending on how much you charge it). That makes it pretty close to a sol ring that generates colored mana and gives your creatures flash. It's hard to justify cutting that. Though I could see a land being better if you need it to hit 6 mana for Notorious Throng.
Elvish Spirit Guide seems a little worse than Lotus Petal, and both of these seem really risky for me. I'm all in favor of someone trying it and seeing though. Wouldn't Vine Dryad just be better than Elvish Spirit Guide though? Both let you spend 2 cards to cast a crappy creature, but at least Vine Dryad is a 1/3 forest walker with flash. And I don't think Vine Dryad makes the cut in this deck, though I could be wrong.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I also think Aether Vial will be good and fortunately I already have one on MTGO to try out. It did fantastic work in my 40+ creature Pheldagrif deck though for slightly different reasons. My thoughts on Lotus Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide is that ramping into turn 2 Edric will simply replace these cards when you beat with a 1 drop and it frees up mana on turn 3 to hold open counterspells or cast more dorks. Dodging early counterspells is also going to be very important for me in my playgroup. I'm at least interested enough in them to try them out. Vine Dryad is interesting, I'll have to keep that one in mind.
I love how just different this deck is from everything else I have ever seen. It has such a unique strategy.
Cool find with Vine Dryad. I like the idea of dropping it in for free on the end of the turn 2 cycle allowing her to be a sneaky creature that drops in.
Another question for you, would you use a turn one mana dork to play Edric on turn 2? Or does that just sort of reveal your next turn too much and thus bring on sorcery removal and or allowing people to plan for your assault? Would you use that mana dork on turn 2 to try to drop more 1-2 mana dorks instead and thus get a bigger turn 3 payoff?
EDIT: What do you think of cutting Sol Ring from the list for one of the moxes / Lotus Petal. The sol Ring seems like it actually slows our start down and it isnt even that great in this deck. I think one of the 0cc mana producers will pan out better personally.
Lol how cool would Protean Hulk be in this deck if it weren't banned.
Do whatever makes you draw the most cards by turn 3. Casting Edric on turn 2 generally means you draw 2 cards on turn 3. But if you have a mana elf opening, you can usually cast two creatures on turn 2 (another 1 drop and a 2 drop). That means you can cast Edric on turn 3 and draw 3 cards instead.
But if you somehow got two creatures on turn 1, then definitely cast Edric turn 2. For example, land + Mox diamond.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Any chance we can do a quick rundown on the options in some of the free and or 1 mana ramp effects?
Lotus Petal I feel like this is best for accelerating Edric to turn 2. Sadly it doesnt do anything beyond that and it is a one use effect. I feel it is superior to Elvish Spirit Guide in the fact that you would never really want to cast the Spirit Guide as it is a terrible creature and it only gives you green whereas the petal at least can give U or G mana. Sadly the single use part of it sort of makes me look a bit more at the mox options. Chrome Mox I like how we can ditch higher cost spells to this if they are in our opening hand and that it is reusable. I think I like this one more than the Mox Diamond as we often need our opening lands. It can give us a 2 mana drop on turn one or 2 one drops allowing us to draw 2 on our turn 2 which seems completely amazing. Mox Diamond I have a harder time justifying this mox as in an opening hand we need at least 3 mana to get started. We have more nonland options to pitch to a mox than we do lands. I like how it is reusable but I dont know if it is worth pitching a land to it. Aether Vial I dont know if I like this or not. We dont actually usually need a creature in play on turn 1 as we will cheat it in next turn. By turn 2 we get to drop an extra creature into play. The downside here is it doesnt accel Edric and it doesnt actually give us any more creatures in play than we would have had without it.
Personally I am leaning towards using the Chrome Mox the most and sort of between Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal for a second one. In my mind the fact that the Vial does not actually put me any creatures forward in the first few turns and it doesnt ramp into a faster Edric or bigger spells sort of kills it for me. I would probably keep it at 1 mana though as I have the most drops at that count and at 1 mana it isnt that effective.
Also I cut my Sol Ring from my list. It looks like it will slow my start more often than not. I only have a few spells I need to get to above 4 mana and I dont feel it is worth slowing my start for it. Ideally I should be drawing a bunch of cards by the time I would want to play them anyways.
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The only card on that list I have serious play experience with is Mox Diamond, but I'm absolutely convinced it's the best mox. Providing both colors is huge. It discards lands, which combos with Groundskeeper. I don't see why Chrome Mox would be significantly better or worse though. Remember that Chrome Mox draws take up a land (since you'd play a land if it wasn't for the Chrome Mox) and Diamond only takes up a spell slot (since you'd play a spell instead). So I don't buy the "need more lands to make it work" argument.
I admit that Sol Ring is lackluster here but I find it's still really good in the mid game. There's many times you cast two spells that each require 1 colorless. Even if you only use 1 of the 2 points of mana (as I often do), it's still a colorless mox that cost only 1 to cast, and that's *still* amazing.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
This list is AWESOME. Every time I come back to this thread I want to just build it. It's so unique and different of a concept for EDH. It's U/G weenies that actually seems to work! It seemingly fulfills and denies all conceptions of what EDH is supposed to be and that gives me a warm fuzzy.
I don't have too much to add right now, unfortunately. I don't know much about the years and years of 1-and-2-drop dorks in Magic having only started last year. I know if I was playing against this deck, I'd have to maindeck Molten Disaster just to not lose every game :).
Has anyone brought up Misdirection as a reasonably-costed way to protect Edric from spot removal? Seems like it'd be perfect for him, although it won't stop a wrath.
EDIT: Ah, I didn't realize the list didn't have a FoW. I thought it had one
hummm I suppose that is a valid way to look at Mox Diamond. I always looked at it from the standpoint of it ramps a mana at the cost of 2 cards. Normally that could hurt a deck for EDH but considering how effective Edric is for a card draw engine and how fast we are trying to go off it is probably worth it.
The difference between our lists is I think I run a lot heavier low mana creature curve as currently I have 17 creatures at the 0-1cc slot. Sol ring is a bit harder for me to take advantage of in part because I have a lot less mid to late game cards. I am relying more on just dumping tons of small attackers and drawing tons of cards. I have no idea which deck will be more effective but I liked it from a flavor standpoint to just dump more guys in early and swarm. In my version at least it would slow me down a lot as I need colored mana more than I do colorless. I also have less to ramp to in the mid to late game.
I think I will run the 2 moxes and see how that works. As I don't want to dump like $40 on experimentation I think I will proxy them for a while before deciding on what to do with them.
This list is AWESOME. Every time I come back to this thread I want to just build it. It's so unique and different of a concept for EDH. It's U/G weenies that actually seems to work! It seemingly fulfills and denies all conceptions of what EDH is supposed to be and that gives me a warm fuzzy.
I don't have too much to add right now, unfortunately. I don't know much about the years and years of 1-and-2-drop dorks in Magic having only started last year. I know if I was playing against this deck, I'd have to maindeck Molten Disaster just to not lose every game :).
Has anyone brought up Misdirection as a reasonably-costed way to protect Edric from spot removal? Seems like it'd be perfect for him, although it won't stop a wrath.
I think Misdirection would fall into some sort of worse than Force of Will category. I think it is good for that emergency tuck / kill response but sadly Force of Will is just so much better as it does it the same way but also stops wraths. I think it is a cool card but Wraths are at least half of the problem and tuck the other half.
I am also very excited for this sort of list as it is very different from the usual EDH mentality and I want to see it work out so badly.
Molten Disaster would be bad for us. I think Starstorm is better off though as we still have a lot of flying evasion creatures and starstorm would hit everything whereas Molten is only nonflyers. There is always the chance we could counter starstorm though so its give and take.
One thing that concerns me more and more as to where this list is headed is the amount of hate it draws in multiplayer. The more it becomes tuned toward 1 mana dorks, the more it seems suited for 1v1. When people see me gaining such massive card advantage through countless weenies, the table gets turned around very quickly. Any thoughts on this?
I've somewhat ditched my minor elf theme for a Rogue theme, playing cards like Merfolk Spy and Jhessian Infiltrator both to ensure hits and Prowl. The curve really is becoming minuscule.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
This list is AWESOME. Every time I come back to this thread I want to just build it. It's so unique and different of a concept for EDH. It's U/G weenies that actually seems to work! It seemingly fulfills and denies all conceptions of what EDH is supposed to be and that gives me a warm fuzzy.
I don't have too much to add right now, unfortunately. I don't know much about the years and years of 1-and-2-drop dorks in Magic having only started last year. I know if I was playing against this deck, I'd have to maindeck Molten Disaster just to not lose every game :).
Has anyone brought up Misdirection as a reasonably-costed way to protect Edric from spot removal? Seems like it'd be perfect for him, although it won't stop a wrath.
EDIT: Ah, I didn't realize the list didn't have a FoW. I thought it had one
I've played Misdirection for years now in my Wydwen deck and you'd probably be surprised by how rare it is to have a quality target that makes it worth getting 2 for 1'd. For example I'd say it is much more narrow than Stifle, at least in terms of things you'd actually want to use it on. I still keep it in the deck as a silver bullet I can fetch at instant speed but that deck is heavily built around instants. For this deck I think I'd rather run Foil because it can stop ***s. This is a very unique deck and I had a lot of fun playing it yesterday. I got to play some unbelievably terrible cards and tell people Memnite was my decks win condition. It reminds me of my friends Shirei deck which is also filled with some of the most awful cards imaginable yet manages to wreck people with Noxious Toad, Chimney Imp and Workhorse.
EDIT: @Shishizaru: I think the best bet here is to just draw the hate. The deck gains control of the game very quickly and since the creatures have evasion there just aren't that many cards which present problems for us. It reminds me of my Uril deck in that it draws a lot of hate but it's so explosive that it doesn't really matter. The difference with that deck though is that I can win without Uril, I'm not sure if this deck has much of a chance without Edric.
My thinking is that it is going to curve out more aggressively than most decks will be able to hate on it. It is actually somewhat rare to see a 4 mana wrath effect in EDH. Both Day of Judgment and Wrath of God are somewhat bad in comparison to most other white wrath effects. In Black there is Damnation but unless it is mono black Mutilate isnt usually there. That only leaves one 4 mana wrath that is heavily used.
I guess my hope is to drop enough threats in early to start the card draw engine churning. Once you have cards coming in hopefully you can either have a quick reset after a wrath due to a full hand or counter the wrath.
In my opinion the worst case scenario would be spot removal on the first cast of Edric or him being tucked before the first attack was allowed through. Shy of these 2 options though I think in the midgame we can stabalize very quickly between effects. I have yet to run my list though. I will proxy it up and hope to run it this weekend.
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EDIT: @Shishizaru: I think the best bet here is to just draw the hate. The deck gains control of the game very quickly and since the creatures have evasion there just aren't that many cards which present problems for us. It reminds me of my Uril deck in that it draws a lot of hate but it's so explosive that it doesn't really matter. The difference with that deck though is that I can win without Uril, I'm not sure if this deck has much of a chance without Edric.
That's what I expected. I guess it comes with playing a terribly aggressive, no-holds-barred kind of deck.
Regarding the deck, Vengevine seems to be somewhat under-performing for me mainly because he's so small. I also play Sylvan Tutor in my list and will advocate on it being a good slot (for now anyways). I might need to add Green Sun's Zenith. I also added in Squirrel Nest which is not a terrible standalone card especially after a wrath, which is just gravy. The reason for this is that I think the deck needs a real win condition. The Squirrels fill that niche (with Earthcraft of course) while remaining relatively cheap and decent on its own.
I'm also currently playing 6 counterspells in my list, yet I'm still unsure whether it's too much or too little at this point.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I would say our only chance of winning without Edric is probably to somehow randomly build up our creatures and drop some sort of Beastmaster's Ascension. Sadly I agree that it is a lot worse without Edric.
So I think we are back to we either need more protection or more tutors to go get Edric. I think either one is achievable. Let me see what I can come up with.
I think he's a good option but my thinking was that if I have to hold up 2 mana I'd rather it just be for a hard counter. Being a creature though gives him some added appeal since he can be tutored more easily.
If you want a creature counter, Spellstutter Sprite is the consideration. It's a flier for 2 mana. And the deck list already contains 4 other faeries, I believe: Scryb Sprites, Zephyr Sprite, Cloud Sprite, Cloud of Faeries. And I guess the tokens from Notorious Throng, but you've probably won already if you cast that.
Most of the time it will just be a force spike, but occasionally it could hit for 2, I guess. I have trouble believing they would counter any legitimate threat on a consistent basis.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I think he's a good option but my thinking was that if I have to hold up 2 mana I'd rather it just be for a hard counter. Being a creature though gives him some added appeal since he can be tutored more easily.
Don forget though that he doesnt work vs counterspells especially coutnerspells with tuck in them
I did some digging and this is what I cam up with:
SAC OUTLETS Culling Dais I sort of like how we could build this up as a backup plan. It can be used to protect Edric from tuck and it can be emergency draw if we for some reason start running low. Spawning Pit again a sac outlet for Edric in case of target tuck. I like how we can store up things that would die here and then for a bit of mana spawn a big attack force using it. Somewhat similar to Night Soil as a recovery plan but it has some built in protection for Edric. Drowned Rusalka a sac outlet on legs and it is a 1 drop meaning we could use it to draw some cards off of Edric. Sadly it has an activation cost to use Starved Rusalka another sac outlet on legs that is a 1 drop. Again it requires mana to activate which sucks.
TUTORS Time of Need a bit narrow but there could be a few other targets for it. I dont really like it but as a contingency for if we dont have Edric anymore it works alright... Sylvan Tutor I dislike how it is sorcery speed and puts it on top of the library. The pricetag on it is a bit high as well for being a bad Worldly Tutor as well. I dont care for the slow feeling of it for the situation where I dont have Edric. Survival of the Fittest Luckily I even have a spare one of these arround. It isnt perfect for the deck but it lets us shift away some of those 1 drop guys for something bigger later in the game. And it can be used to fetch Edric. Chord of Calling The upside here is instant speed and it has convoke which we have plenty of critters to run the engine to make this cheap to cast and bring him back at instant speed.
PROTECTION Plaxmanta protection on legs. Sadly you will probably want to keep it in hand until it is needed. At that point why dont we have a counterspell in hand? Gaea's Herald turns off counterspells very early in the game as well. I like how it turns off the option to use Hinder and Spell Crumple on Edric myself. I am sure it has its uses in counterspell heavy metas. Steely Resolve shroud that covers him before he comes in. I like how I dont have the window during the equip process for opponents to hit him. Swiftfoot Boots costs extra mana to equip which is a huge bummer. Also it still has the downside of the window to answer him. Champions Helm again it costs mana to equip and it doesnt give him haste. Probably one of my least favorite options here but meh it does give him +2/+2.
EDIT: Crystal Shard thanks Shishizaru I totally forgot that one. Downside here obviously that it takes mana to activate and only usable once per turn. They could always respond to you using it and blow Edric up. Upside obviously it can go infinite with E Witness + extra turn effects.
Then obviously there are still adding more counterspells as an option. I have sort of been eyeing Spiketail Drakeling as another creature that deturs wrath effects as it forces them to be higher costed and slows them down.
If you want a creature counter, Spellstutter Sprite is the consideration. It's a flier for 2 mana. And the deck list already contains 4 other faeries, I believe: Scryb Sprites, Zephyr Sprite, Cloud Sprite, Cloud of Faeries. And I guess the tokens from Notorious Throng, but you've probably won already if you cast that.
Most of the time it will just be a force spike, but occasionally it could hit for 2, I guess. I have trouble believing they would counter any legitimate threat on a consistent basis.
Keep in mind that Spellstutter Sprite requires you to have more than or equal number of faeries as the cost of the spell. It doesn't just force them to pay X mana or counter.
I'm going to go ahead and suggest Crystal Shard again for Edric protection. Not to mention this card actually validates playing cards like Mystic Snake and Gilded Drake.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Then obviously there are still adding more counterspells as an option. I have sort of been eyeing Spiketail Drakeling as another creature that deturs wrath effects as it forces them to be higher costed and slows them down.
The Drakeling is in my MTGO deck and I was really happy the game I drew him yesterday. Buying you a full turn before you have to deal with a wrath is great and he has evasion while you are waiting for a target. I want to cast him a few more times and see how he does but I may add him back into my paper list if he keeps doing good work.
EDIT: I meant Spiketail Hatchling. Even though he only makes them pay 1 more mana I think he's better than the Drakeling.
The Drakeling is in my MTGO deck and I was really happy the game I drew him yesterday. Buying you a full turn before you have to deal with a wrath is great and he has evasion while you are waiting for a target. I want to cast him a few more times and see how he does but I may add him back into my paper list if he keeps doing good work.
EDIT: I meant Spiketail Hatchling. Even though he only makes them pay 1 more mana I think he's better than the Drakeling.
I know that Spiketail Hatchling is much better. I was sort of contemplating having both though. I already have the hatchling and I think he is much better but the bigger drake is still an evasive guy for somewhat cheap that can slow down anything that would disrupt your board.
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I know that Spiketail Hatchling is much better. I was sort of contemplating having both though. I already have the hatchling and I think he is much better but the bigger drake is still an evasive guy for somewhat cheap that can slow down anything that would disrupt your board.
Ah, yeah if you already have the hatchling the drakeling might be worth a shot too. I might even give Cursecatcher a go if I have a spare one.
Ah, yeah if you already have the hatchling the drakeling might be worth a shot too. I might even give Cursecatcher a go if I have a spare one.
lol I know I was checking him out the other day. Could be really solid vs that first window to answer Edric. I might try to squeeze Survival into my list as well. There are a lot of low drops that could be cycled off for better as the game goes on. Plus its another way to recover Edric.
EDIT: lol any thoughts on Sheltering Ancient? big old beater with trample for 2 mana. Downside is you cant cast him unless there are creatures on the field. The upside though is he is huge and has trample for 2 mana. You could always sac him after like 2 or 3 swings and it shouldnt hurt too much.
I think you're worried too much about tucking. You can't stop everything that can kill your deck. By metagaming against tuck effects so much, I think we run the risk of making a deck that just loses a lot more often to everything else. Remember, tuck isn't that good in general. It's only slightly better than standard removal. I mean, Edric is way worse when he costs 5 mana. You can cast and maybe swing, but you won't be able to use any counters he draws. At 7 mana? You're basically locked out of the game. Who cares if he's in the command zone or on the bottom of your deck. The value of tucking is primarily psychological.
This isn't a problem with tucking. This is a problem with Edric dying. We shouldn't play substandard cards like high market. We should just try to protect Edric from things that kill him, of which tuck effects are a minority.
On Spellstutter Sprite, for some reason I thought he was power sink, not spell blast. Nevermind-- he is terrible.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Now that I have the deckstats also linked that I need to update I'm just going to update it every couple days. Probably tomorrow I should have some more testing in and I can make an update. I'll start a list of cuts/adds and maybe a list of potential alternatives.
@tedv: I think that sac/counter guys like Cursecatcher, Spiketail Hatchling and maybe Spiketail Drakeling would be great for the role of protecting Edric. They provide bodies to gain card advantage and the only times I'm really worried about removal is when I tap out to cast him. If I untap and start drawing cards I can just protect him with counters and these little guys fill in that gap. Since I'm running a crappy budget MTGO deck anyways it should be easy for me to find cuts to try all these guys out. I will report back with my findings.
- Thran Quary
- City of Brass
- Lotus Petal
- Chrome Mox
- Mox Diamond
- Aether Vial
- Elvish Spirit Guide
(maybe)I don't think the deck is quite creature heavy enough to run Ancient Ziggurat since it doesn't help cast Time Walks among other things.
Thran Quarry I'm apprehensive about but it should be good. It sucks to lose it after a wrath, but if a wrath resolves, we already have big problems. This won't make it much worse.
I haven't actually played the Aether Vial yet but it should in theory be good. My theory is that you'll almost always have a 1 or 2 mana creature. So Aether Vial is a 1 mana spell that taps to provide 1 or 2 mana (depending on how much you charge it). That makes it pretty close to a sol ring that generates colored mana and gives your creatures flash. It's hard to justify cutting that. Though I could see a land being better if you need it to hit 6 mana for Notorious Throng.
Elvish Spirit Guide seems a little worse than Lotus Petal, and both of these seem really risky for me. I'm all in favor of someone trying it and seeing though. Wouldn't Vine Dryad just be better than Elvish Spirit Guide though? Both let you spend 2 cards to cast a crappy creature, but at least Vine Dryad is a 1/3 forest walker with flash. And I don't think Vine Dryad makes the cut in this deck, though I could be wrong.
Cool find with Vine Dryad. I like the idea of dropping it in for free on the end of the turn 2 cycle allowing her to be a sneaky creature that drops in.
Another question for you, would you use a turn one mana dork to play Edric on turn 2? Or does that just sort of reveal your next turn too much and thus bring on sorcery removal and or allowing people to plan for your assault? Would you use that mana dork on turn 2 to try to drop more 1-2 mana dorks instead and thus get a bigger turn 3 payoff?
EDIT: What do you think of cutting Sol Ring from the list for one of the moxes / Lotus Petal. The sol Ring seems like it actually slows our start down and it isnt even that great in this deck. I think one of the 0cc mana producers will pan out better personally.
Lol how cool would Protean Hulk be in this deck if it weren't banned.
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But if you somehow got two creatures on turn 1, then definitely cast Edric turn 2. For example, land + Mox diamond.
Lotus Petal I feel like this is best for accelerating Edric to turn 2. Sadly it doesnt do anything beyond that and it is a one use effect. I feel it is superior to Elvish Spirit Guide in the fact that you would never really want to cast the Spirit Guide as it is a terrible creature and it only gives you green whereas the petal at least can give U or G mana. Sadly the single use part of it sort of makes me look a bit more at the mox options.
Chrome Mox I like how we can ditch higher cost spells to this if they are in our opening hand and that it is reusable. I think I like this one more than the Mox Diamond as we often need our opening lands. It can give us a 2 mana drop on turn one or 2 one drops allowing us to draw 2 on our turn 2 which seems completely amazing.
Mox Diamond I have a harder time justifying this mox as in an opening hand we need at least 3 mana to get started. We have more nonland options to pitch to a mox than we do lands. I like how it is reusable but I dont know if it is worth pitching a land to it.
Aether Vial I dont know if I like this or not. We dont actually usually need a creature in play on turn 1 as we will cheat it in next turn. By turn 2 we get to drop an extra creature into play. The downside here is it doesnt accel Edric and it doesnt actually give us any more creatures in play than we would have had without it.
Personally I am leaning towards using the Chrome Mox the most and sort of between Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal for a second one. In my mind the fact that the Vial does not actually put me any creatures forward in the first few turns and it doesnt ramp into a faster Edric or bigger spells sort of kills it for me. I would probably keep it at 1 mana though as I have the most drops at that count and at 1 mana it isnt that effective.
Also I cut my Sol Ring from my list. It looks like it will slow my start more often than not. I only have a few spells I need to get to above 4 mana and I dont feel it is worth slowing my start for it. Ideally I should be drawing a bunch of cards by the time I would want to play them anyways.
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I admit that Sol Ring is lackluster here but I find it's still really good in the mid game. There's many times you cast two spells that each require 1 colorless. Even if you only use 1 of the 2 points of mana (as I often do), it's still a colorless mox that cost only 1 to cast, and that's *still* amazing.
I don't have too much to add right now, unfortunately. I don't know much about the years and years of 1-and-2-drop dorks in Magic having only started last year. I know if I was playing against this deck, I'd have to maindeck Molten Disaster just to not lose every game :).
Has anyone brought up Misdirection as a reasonably-costed way to protect Edric from spot removal? Seems like it'd be perfect for him, although it won't stop a wrath.
EDIT: Ah, I didn't realize the list didn't have a FoW. I thought it had one
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
The difference between our lists is I think I run a lot heavier low mana creature curve as currently I have 17 creatures at the 0-1cc slot. Sol ring is a bit harder for me to take advantage of in part because I have a lot less mid to late game cards. I am relying more on just dumping tons of small attackers and drawing tons of cards. I have no idea which deck will be more effective but I liked it from a flavor standpoint to just dump more guys in early and swarm. In my version at least it would slow me down a lot as I need colored mana more than I do colorless. I also have less to ramp to in the mid to late game.
I think I will run the 2 moxes and see how that works. As I don't want to dump like $40 on experimentation I think I will proxy them for a while before deciding on what to do with them.
I think Misdirection would fall into some sort of worse than Force of Will category. I think it is good for that emergency tuck / kill response but sadly Force of Will is just so much better as it does it the same way but also stops wraths. I think it is a cool card but Wraths are at least half of the problem and tuck the other half.
I am also very excited for this sort of list as it is very different from the usual EDH mentality and I want to see it work out so badly.
Molten Disaster would be bad for us. I think Starstorm is better off though as we still have a lot of flying evasion creatures and starstorm would hit everything whereas Molten is only nonflyers. There is always the chance we could counter starstorm though so its give and take.
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[Modern] Allies
I've somewhat ditched my minor elf theme for a Rogue theme, playing cards like Merfolk Spy and Jhessian Infiltrator both to ensure hits and Prowl. The curve really is becoming minuscule.
I've played Misdirection for years now in my Wydwen deck and you'd probably be surprised by how rare it is to have a quality target that makes it worth getting 2 for 1'd. For example I'd say it is much more narrow than Stifle, at least in terms of things you'd actually want to use it on. I still keep it in the deck as a silver bullet I can fetch at instant speed but that deck is heavily built around instants. For this deck I think I'd rather run Foil because it can stop ***s. This is a very unique deck and I had a lot of fun playing it yesterday. I got to play some unbelievably terrible cards and tell people Memnite was my decks win condition. It reminds me of my friends Shirei deck which is also filled with some of the most awful cards imaginable yet manages to wreck people with Noxious Toad, Chimney Imp and Workhorse.
EDIT: @Shishizaru: I think the best bet here is to just draw the hate. The deck gains control of the game very quickly and since the creatures have evasion there just aren't that many cards which present problems for us. It reminds me of my Uril deck in that it draws a lot of hate but it's so explosive that it doesn't really matter. The difference with that deck though is that I can win without Uril, I'm not sure if this deck has much of a chance without Edric.
I guess my hope is to drop enough threats in early to start the card draw engine churning. Once you have cards coming in hopefully you can either have a quick reset after a wrath due to a full hand or counter the wrath.
In my opinion the worst case scenario would be spot removal on the first cast of Edric or him being tucked before the first attack was allowed through. Shy of these 2 options though I think in the midgame we can stabalize very quickly between effects. I have yet to run my list though. I will proxy it up and hope to run it this weekend.
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[Modern] Allies
That's what I expected. I guess it comes with playing a terribly aggressive, no-holds-barred kind of deck.
Regarding the deck, Vengevine seems to be somewhat under-performing for me mainly because he's so small. I also play Sylvan Tutor in my list and will advocate on it being a good slot (for now anyways). I might need to add Green Sun's Zenith. I also added in Squirrel Nest which is not a terrible standalone card especially after a wrath, which is just gravy. The reason for this is that I think the deck needs a real win condition. The Squirrels fill that niche (with Earthcraft of course) while remaining relatively cheap and decent on its own.
I'm also currently playing 6 counterspells in my list, yet I'm still unsure whether it's too much or too little at this point.
Back to considering Steely Resolve for the deck.
So I think we are back to we either need more protection or more tutors to go get Edric. I think either one is achievable. Let me see what I can come up with.
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[Modern] Allies
I think he's a good option but my thinking was that if I have to hold up 2 mana I'd rather it just be for a hard counter. Being a creature though gives him some added appeal since he can be tutored more easily.
Most of the time it will just be a force spike, but occasionally it could hit for 2, I guess. I have trouble believing they would counter any legitimate threat on a consistent basis.
Don forget though that he doesnt work vs counterspells especially coutnerspells with tuck in them
I did some digging and this is what I cam up with:
SAC OUTLETS
Culling Dais I sort of like how we could build this up as a backup plan. It can be used to protect Edric from tuck and it can be emergency draw if we for some reason start running low.
Spawning Pit again a sac outlet for Edric in case of target tuck. I like how we can store up things that would die here and then for a bit of mana spawn a big attack force using it. Somewhat similar to Night Soil as a recovery plan but it has some built in protection for Edric.
Drowned Rusalka a sac outlet on legs and it is a 1 drop meaning we could use it to draw some cards off of Edric. Sadly it has an activation cost to use
Starved Rusalka another sac outlet on legs that is a 1 drop. Again it requires mana to activate which sucks.
TUTORS
Time of Need a bit narrow but there could be a few other targets for it. I dont really like it but as a contingency for if we dont have Edric anymore it works alright...
Sylvan Tutor I dislike how it is sorcery speed and puts it on top of the library. The pricetag on it is a bit high as well for being a bad Worldly Tutor as well. I dont care for the slow feeling of it for the situation where I dont have Edric.
Survival of the Fittest Luckily I even have a spare one of these arround. It isnt perfect for the deck but it lets us shift away some of those 1 drop guys for something bigger later in the game. And it can be used to fetch Edric.
Chord of Calling The upside here is instant speed and it has convoke which we have plenty of critters to run the engine to make this cheap to cast and bring him back at instant speed.
PROTECTION
Plaxmanta protection on legs. Sadly you will probably want to keep it in hand until it is needed. At that point why dont we have a counterspell in hand?
Gaea's Herald turns off counterspells very early in the game as well. I like how it turns off the option to use Hinder and Spell Crumple on Edric myself. I am sure it has its uses in counterspell heavy metas.
Steely Resolve shroud that covers him before he comes in. I like how I dont have the window during the equip process for opponents to hit him.
Swiftfoot Boots costs extra mana to equip which is a huge bummer. Also it still has the downside of the window to answer him.
Champions Helm again it costs mana to equip and it doesnt give him haste. Probably one of my least favorite options here but meh it does give him +2/+2.
EDIT: Crystal Shard thanks Shishizaru I totally forgot that one. Downside here obviously that it takes mana to activate and only usable once per turn. They could always respond to you using it and blow Edric up. Upside obviously it can go infinite with E Witness + extra turn effects.
Then obviously there are still adding more counterspells as an option. I have sort of been eyeing Spiketail Drakeling as another creature that deturs wrath effects as it forces them to be higher costed and slows them down.
Keep in mind that Spellstutter Sprite requires you to have more than or equal number of faeries as the cost of the spell. It doesn't just force them to pay X mana or counter.
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[Modern] Allies
The Drakeling is in my MTGO deck and I was really happy the game I drew him yesterday. Buying you a full turn before you have to deal with a wrath is great and he has evasion while you are waiting for a target. I want to cast him a few more times and see how he does but I may add him back into my paper list if he keeps doing good work.
EDIT: I meant Spiketail Hatchling. Even though he only makes them pay 1 more mana I think he's better than the Drakeling.
I know that Spiketail Hatchling is much better. I was sort of contemplating having both though. I already have the hatchling and I think he is much better but the bigger drake is still an evasive guy for somewhat cheap that can slow down anything that would disrupt your board.
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[Modern] Allies
Ah, yeah if you already have the hatchling the drakeling might be worth a shot too. I might even give Cursecatcher a go if I have a spare one.
lol I know I was checking him out the other day. Could be really solid vs that first window to answer Edric. I might try to squeeze Survival into my list as well. There are a lot of low drops that could be cycled off for better as the game goes on. Plus its another way to recover Edric.
I am cutting Grayscaled Gharial from my list for Cursecatcher. I like the disruption option of it.
EDIT: lol any thoughts on Sheltering Ancient? big old beater with trample for 2 mana. Downside is you cant cast him unless there are creatures on the field. The upside though is he is huge and has trample for 2 mana. You could always sac him after like 2 or 3 swings and it shouldnt hurt too much.
Also you still need to update the Tolaria West -> City of Brass update on your main page Donald.
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[Modern] Allies
This isn't a problem with tucking. This is a problem with Edric dying. We shouldn't play substandard cards like high market. We should just try to protect Edric from things that kill him, of which tuck effects are a minority.
On Spellstutter Sprite, for some reason I thought he was power sink, not spell blast. Nevermind-- he is terrible.
Now that I have the deckstats also linked that I need to update I'm just going to update it every couple days. Probably tomorrow I should have some more testing in and I can make an update. I'll start a list of cuts/adds and maybe a list of potential alternatives.
@tedv: I think that sac/counter guys like Cursecatcher, Spiketail Hatchling and maybe Spiketail Drakeling would be great for the role of protecting Edric. They provide bodies to gain card advantage and the only times I'm really worried about removal is when I tap out to cast him. If I untap and start drawing cards I can just protect him with counters and these little guys fill in that gap. Since I'm running a crappy budget MTGO deck anyways it should be easy for me to find cuts to try all these guys out. I will report back with my findings.