Ok a few quick updates, I have seen more utility creatures / token strategies in the past few weeks. We are definitely getting some better lists showing up and it has made me really fight for some wins and in response some of my decks aren't doing as well as they once had. Jenara is still whooping up on them but I don't always win with my Jund decks now.
Quick change: Phyrexian Ingester -> Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite I already have duplicant which is sort of a similar option but he can still be rezed off Lark and costs one less mana but is still tutorable off of Fierce Empath. While having 2 of these guys was sort of fun they are expensive to cast and fill the same role. I dont have a good way of removing a bunch of smaller tokens / utility guys short of one of my 3 wraths so Elesh gives me another option. It also gives me an option to do an alpha strike with small utility guys pumping them up to be beefy. I will try to report back on how it works but with how decks are being modified she seems very promising.
EDIT: I suppose I should thank Shishizaru for this suggestion. It sort of stuck in my head in the last week when I was playing some games so I figured I would try it out. Thx again
Also my Tundra came in the mail on Monday which I am super happy to have. It is in NM condition from 3rd ED which is fairly nice. I am super excited to use it.
I have actually mulled all three of those options over in the past several times now. I think they are all worthy of being tested but ultimately there is something holding me back from using all 3 of them:
Mistmeadow Witch really a cool card and it could be crazy amazing. Sadly I do a lot in my turns and I get wrathed a lot. I just dont have the mana open every turn to try blinking things. Also as a downside this guy doesnt have any effects if flickered itself so it relies on other cards to be decent. I could see him being amazing in more of a controlling style list that keeps mana open for counterspells. Cool card but the fact that it doesnt do anything itself and I have a hard time keeping 4 mana up keeps him from being added to my own list.
Momentary Blink honestly if this flickered until end of turn it would totally be in my list already. Sadly most of the removal I see is wraths and this doesnt help vs that. Sure it is 2 ETB effects in a row but again it is relying on another card to operate, it cant really be easily tutored, and it doesnt protect from wraths which is what I sort of need in my flicker effects. Ghostway is probably more likely for me to use especially considering its positive interaction with Eternal Witness. Even then though I have problems with these effects requiring other cards to line up to be good and sort of suck in opening hands as they are too reactive. I have also considered running Vanish into Memory again which is really fun to use on Jenara which can protect her and turn her +/+ counters into card draw which is super tasty. Again though I have problems keeping 4 mana open consistently which is why I don't run it.
Seedborn Muse I ran this early in this deck's list and my biggest problem is that this deck isnt a big control list. If I ran more counterspells then untapping is a lot better. However all I really have is to dump mana into Jenara. Also this thing is like a wrath magnet. People totally hate this guy and it is prone to be removed very quickly. I just didnt find it to pan out much for how much hate it attracted. Seriously when I would drop it in it was like ZOMG Consecrated Sphinx or something. But unfortunately it was harder for me to utilize and died about as often. Plus no immediate effect and its hard for me to utilize.
I think all 3 of them are great cards but sadly the Witch and Muse are better in a control list with more counterspells / instant speed stuff to do like Teferi / flash guys. The blink is cool with its 2 ETB triggers but sadly its protection isnt quite what I need for my meta. Good cards but they just haven't been what I need in my list.
Actually, tooth and nailing for a seedborn muse and mistmeadow witch can be pretty hilarious, especially when you've got just about any ETB creature on the board. Repeatedly bouncing Eternal Witness, Duplicant, or Mulldrifter its quite tasty, and doing it with Terastodon is downright broken.
The big problem is that there are a lot of Tooth and Nail targets that really could be considered. Here are a few that I have looked at in the past that I dont run.
Avenger of Zendikar + Regal Force This gets an army of guys and backs it by drawing a ton of cards. This is great as once the tooth and Nail has been allowd to resolve there is nothing to stop the card draw off of this monster but a stifle effect. (or I suppose a Starstorm / cycled Decree of Pain style effect). I ran this combo for a bit early in my Jenara list but I found that Regal Force was lacking outside of doing this Tooth and Nail combo. So I cut him based on the fact that he wasnt good enough on his own.
Palinchron + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger infinite mana. I considered this combo a few times but sadly I dont have much to do with infinite mana other than pump Jenara way up or overextend my board position. Either way I felt that it didnt impact the board enough to be included and both creatures were a bit lacking on their own to be included in the list.
While a Seedborn + Mistmeadow brought out by a tooth and nail could be fun I dont find it as dramatic as what I usually do currently. My two most used combinations are probably as follows:
Avenger of Zendikar + Glen Elendra Archmage an army of guys with 2 counterspell protections. I see so much removal that Avenger by himself is usually just responded to by wrathing. So this really makes it hard to respond in that way. This often kills several opponents when I manage to pull this out.
Primeval Titan + Eternal Witness If I need more board development I usually drop this and use the witness to pull back the tooth and nail. From here if I get wrathed I can always cast tooth and nail next turn using body double to copy the E witness. If the witness is still alive I can use the phyrexian metamorph to copy the E Witness. Either way I can chain this on a few times really utilizing tooth and nail a lot if I want to.
When it comes to creatures that I use I try to have them be overall good for my deck. There are a few combos that are cool while using tooth and nail but if I feel like they are overall a bad addition to a deck then I don't like including them.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
My meta is changing a bit more away from the everyone packing 8-10 wraths per deck. I might need to reevaluate some of my card options due to this. I have an annoying Nin deck that runs some storm combos as well as 2 more token decks that I regularly run into. I will try to get more feedback on how my Jenara list plays vs them but I have noticed that outside of a few select cards like Elesh Norn and the wraths that I don't really have a good solution to token strategies. I will try to get in a few more games before I really decide if I need to shift much but less wrathing has definitely been noticeable.
Also I am in the middle of selling a large portion of my cards to cash in on the other 2 original duals for this deck as well as 3 original duals for my Sek'Kuar deck. It will require a lot of my cards to go but I feel it is worth doing. I will update more when I get this accomplished.
EDIT: OVER 9,000!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry I just noticed that this page was at 9002 views and that was the first thing I thought of ahhhh good old DBZ references.
So I was recently thinking of building this deck because of all the awesome synergies between the colors, but is it true that Jenara doesn't have to be built with an aggro core to be effective?
So I was recently thinking of building this deck because of all the awesome synergies between the colors, but is it true that Jenara doesn't have to be built with an aggro core to be effective?
This is extremely true. I have seen lots of other control based Jenara lists and I think she can make for a good candidate for this. Her ability to level up can let you control the board until the end of your opponents turns then power her up into a mighty beating machine at the end of them. I think that is one of my favorite aspects of her is just the raw versatility of Bant and that she doesnt really commit you to any one build.
I am just a sucker for agro so I built her as such. I have a surprisingly good amount of control though for being an agro build though.
I'm going to be building a deck very similar to this and I had a fun thought.
What about Wild Pair? It allows for pretty abusive things to happen.
I'll have more to comment on later in regards to the deck, but I'm a big fan of U/W/G in general.
Wild Pair is a good card. If you run it creature heavy Lurking Predators is also a good call. I had this phase though where everyone in my meta ran Terastodon.deck and these effects just got me hated off. I think they are great potential cards for the deck it just wasnt working in my meta. I personally have not run it but I would be interested to hear how it pans out if you play it.
EDIT: Also I think that I might end up taking out my Cauldron of Souls as my opponents aren't wrathing enough for me to find it as useful anymore.
Some further input... I will be continuing to look at more avenues of victory for this deck because these are the colors I love to play and I love 187 effects, blinking, and general trickery.
1. Is there any reason you're not running any mana ramping artifacts other than Sol Ring, like signets, Coalition Relic, Grim Monolith or a Darksteel Ingot? I apologize in advance if this has already been addressed elsewhere in this thread.
2. Regarding Trinket Mage: I'm a fan of the package, and I'm considering running Expedition Map in here as another target. Any reason you're not running Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod, and Tree of Tales? No Relic of Progenitus? Not necessary with Scavenging Ooze I guess?
3. What is the main artifact you're looking for with Tezzeret? You're only running a few in there anyway. I could use a quick sell from you as to why you run him over, say, Jace TMS.
4. Are the two swords really worthy of the Stoneforge Mystic? How good are the swords in this deck?
Some further input... I will be continuing to look at more avenues of victory for this deck because these are the colors I love to play and I love 187 effects, blinking, and general trickery.
1. Is there any reason you're not running any mana ramping artifacts other than Sol Ring, like signets, Coalition Relic, Grim Monolith or a Darksteel Ingot? I apologize in advance if this has already been addressed elsewhere in this thread.
2. Regarding Trinket Mage: I'm a fan of the package, and I'm considering running Expedition Map in here as another target. Any reason you're not running Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod, and Tree of Tales? No Relic of Progenitus? Not necessary with Scavenging Ooze I guess?
3. What is the main artifact you're looking for with Tezzeret? You're only running a few in there anyway. I could use a quick sell from you as to why you run him over, say, Jace TMS.
4. Are the two swords really worthy of the Stoneforge Mystic? How good are the swords in this deck?
1) To be honest usually when it comes to ramping land vs mana stones I usually find ramping land to be superior. I see a lot of art / enchantment hate in my meta and it is normal to see an O Stone or two go off in a game. Unless you see a high density of mass LD or something I don't really see the reason to run mana stones. In the few decks that I do run mana stones I find that they become a large target due to the fact that they often give me multiple mana per target. Things like Terastodon can pick up a Gilded Lotus a lot easier than it can pick up 2-3 lands.
In addition I used to run more of the standard land ramp like Cultivate and Kodama's Reach. In an attempt to increase my creature density these effects turned into Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves as I can sac them off to things like birthing pod or equip them up or recur them with Lark. I have found that they have become a bit better than traditional land ramp due to this as I have so many ways to abuse them.
2) Trinket Mage it really a champ. To be honest though for the 2 other cards you mentioned:
I dont run Expedition Map because I have so little utility land. The reason I run so little utility land is because we see somewhat of a high density of strip mine type effects. The green decks can also pick off utility lands quite easily and I have gone to the point where I would rather run less utility land and get stripped less often. I cant think of much utility I feel I would really like to add to my list currently beyond Homeward Path, Reliquary Tower, and perhaps Mistifying Maze if I wanted more. However I dont like lands that tap for colorless mana and or come in tapped when I can avoid it. These lands make it very difficult to land Jenara on turn 3 which I usually put a high emphasis on just to push some early damage in. Honestly if I ran more utility lands I would probably bring Knight of the Reliquary back in before I would run the Map. It is just one of those cards that I dont really have that great of targets for in this deck.
The artifact lands have almost no benefit for me to be honest. I run so many fetch lands and dual lands now that I cant even remember the last time I had mana problems. I am currently in the process of obtaining my last two 3rd edition duals so I will be at 6 fetchland targetable duals and 8 fetchlands at the end of it so I think my mana fixing is just fine. The downside to these artifact lands is if someone drops a Austere Command they can strip off my lands which I really dont like. Also keep in mind that these lands are a pain due to the fact that you can run out of basic lands in this list considering how many search outlets there are. Those 8 fetchlands plus all of the other effects that go out to search up basics really run through the basics quickly. I think the big thing in my mind though is that there is just so little support for the artifact lands. Trinket Mage and Tezzeret can go get them but Trinket Mage doesnt even put it into play so its sort of a meh. The potential downsides just feel bigger to me on these.
As for Relic of Progenitus, to be honest I love the card but this deck does so much graveyard abuse that it actually surprises me. I found that blowing out my own graveyard isn't very fun and the options that trinket mage can fetch for graveyard hate that doesn't hit me is down to effects like Tormod's Crypt. The Crypt is just fine don't get me wrong but there were several games where I would just draw the crypt off the top of my library in a game where opponents weren't abusing graveyards and it felt like I skipped my draw phase. The crypt isnt the worst thing in the world but I changed to running both Scavenging Ooze and Primal Command due to the fact that they are both decent cards even if nobody is abusing their graveyards. I think there are a lot of ways to go here but my own deck likes too many cards that interact with my own graveyard for Progenitus in my opinion. Here is a quick list of what it hurts:
That might not appear to be a lot offhand but I end up tutoring for a lot of those cards quite often in this deck. I think Relic is still a solid option though if you dont mind occasionally picking off some of your own utility when you do it.
3) Tezzeret is another one of my toolbox approaches. I am only running 3 wrath type effects in this deck so it could easily turn into an Oblivion Stone which I can recurr through means of Sun Titan or Academy Ruins. If it is early in the game there is a good chance I might go get a Darksteel Plate or my Sensei's Divining Top assuming there is a low chance of him taking damage. Skullclamp can be a great target if I need quick card draw or Sword of Light and Shadow if I have some big guys I want to recur. I dont think there is really any one thing that I always tutor up. I have a decent set of utility artifacts in here and I go get them depending upon the situation.
The big thing in my mind going for Tezzeret is that he only costs 5 mana and he can tutor artifacts INTO PLAY that cost up to 4 mana to play the turn he comes in. This means that if you want a 4cc artifact you only payed 1 mana to tutor it up. I think this is a huge benefit. If I were to use Fabricate instead I would pay 3 to tutor it and then I would have to play it whereas I could go get Birthing Pod and only have it cost me 1 extra mana to have gone and goten it. Planeswalkers dont live long in EDH so dont think that you can just drop Jace TMS into play and have him live forever because it isnt going to happen. I like the suicide planeswalkers a bit more. And who knows if nobody is coming after your Tezzeret you can always use his untap to prolong him a bit longer.
4) I actually have 4 equipment and there are different times that I will use each of them. I ahve:
Skullclamp such a good card draw outlet. This deck has tons of utility creatures and creatures that just probably should die after coming into play. I have tutored this up with Trinket Mage and or Stoneforge Mystic just to strap it to them and deter people from swinging at me as they don't like giving away cards. I love dropping a Wood Elves into play and strapping a clamp to it to lolz draw. Darksteel Plate my meta used to be really really wrath happy and there are decks yet that have too many wraths. What I really really love about this is just that you can really solidify one of your threats. I used to run Lightning Greaves instead but I found the Plate was actually better at pure defense especially if people are wrathing too much. Greaves can be better though it sort of depends on your meta. One of my favorite moves was I once strapped this onto a Sun Titan who kept recurring my Oblivion Stone lol. Sword of Fire and Ice this gives me some elements of control that it can be hard to have in an agro deck. The card draw is fantastic as well. The +2/+2 on it allows me to make a threat out of a utility creature too. I do have to admit though that pro red and pro blue are sort of lackluster but card draw and control is really nice to have on this. Sword of Light and Shadow ohhhhh man pro white pro black is soooooo goood on its own. I once had this akroma recursion loop going where I started with Akroma, Angel of Wrath in play. My opponent wrathed her to get rid of her. I then dropped Body Double copying Akroma. Then I dropped this sword and strapped it to my new akroma to swing in and rez the real akroma. Someone stole the body double akroma with a chromeshell crab. I then dropped the real akroma into play to kill them both and strapped the sword to the crab who swung in and rezed akroma lol. There are just times where this card really breaks your opponents. If your opponents dont have a ton of grave hate this sword can really break them. Probably my favorite of the equipment.
The bottom line is that the swords are not absolutely necessary. If you dont have the swords though I probably wouldn't run the Stoneforge Mystic. You probably want at least 4 options before you consider running Stoneforge. They add a lot of $$$$ to the deck but I feel strongly that they are worthy of inclusion. When I drop a Stoneforge Mystic I don't always go for a sword but when I do it is usually Light and Shadow. I might go for fire and Ice but it is more likely if there is something that is an x/2 or less that really really needs to die. The swords are actually a bit of a new addition in the fact that they weren't in my list until maybe 2-3 months back.
EDIT: feel free to ask any other questions you have. If you have problems with the $$$$ getting into this deck I could always suggest some substitutions and or alternative options to help you out.
Good reply. Glad to be able to have a competent conversation. In terms of the $$$, that is never a problem for me, my budget is unlimited.
I finally read through the entire thread, so now I have some context as to where you're coming from and what you've tested thus far.
I played a few games with the deck on MWS last night, and it's very obvious that the amount of effort you put into the deck is paying off. I noticed as well that the deck doesn't necessarily rely on bouncing its own stuff and repeatedly play things again, which is a good thing. It always had "new" things to do. Here are a ton of thoughts:
1. Rings of Brighthearth -- I know they're your pet card, but they feel like they're just "win more". In the games that I drew them, I wanted them to be something else. I'm going to try Wild Pair instead, as Wild Pair lets me tutor up more toolbox guys. This gives me a reason to push to run Academy Rector, which I saw you felt you didn't have enough targets for. I'm going to toy around with it for a while, even if it may not work out.
2. I saw you were debating about Acidic Slime over other removal guys. Slime is amazing, and you always want it over Indrik Stomphowler or Wickerborough Elder. It's even MORE amazing with Birthing Pod. And perfect for Reveillark. I want to draw Acidic Slime pretty much every game.
3. Birthing Pod - This is one of the best cards in the deck, and more importantly, it's "fun", which is what EDH is all about. This makes the lowly Wood Elves and Farhaven Elves absolutely amazing. There were several games where I was mana screwed, and I sacced out the elves to find a Solemn Simulacrum or Oracle of Mul Daya. Birthing Pod has amazing synergy with this deck, it's just so obvious. Even more so with Skullclamp.
4. Cards I was impressed with:
Cauldron of Souls - wow
Pact of Negation
Consecrated Sphinx
Wood Elves
Farhaven Elf
Phyrexian Metamorph
5. Jace, TMS - You're saying he doesn't live long enough, but man, this card has such synergy with the deck. I can relent and not play Elspeth, (I didn't miss her at all in the games I played), but bouncing with Jace seems like it could be really strong. Something I'll test.
6. Gilded Drake - I actually still think this card is really good. Treachery isn't so great anymore, but I do still think this guy is worth having in you're in a pinch.
Some concerns:
7. Greater Good - There was never a time I wanted to cast this. Moreover, I'm considering playing with Rafiq as the general instead of Jenara. With Rafig as the general, Greater Good actually feels like it has more value, given the Exalted and Double Strike bonuses.
8. Didn't get to see Elesh Norn or Avenger of Zendikar in action. Elesh Norn doesn't excite me that much, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try her.
9. Not a fan of the Darksteel Plate either. Who do we really want to protect? There are better choices than this I think. Maybe Nim Deathmantle? Maybe something else?
Some cards I came up with to put in, just from doing a lot of digging, and would be interested to hear your thoughts:
Spitting Image (amazing with late land topdecks, and fun)
Empyrial Archangel (tooth and nail)
Venser, Shaper Savant (curious why he isn't mentioned at all in this thread)
Rout (instant speed, I guess this deck doesn't leave mana untapped often)
Desertion (Bribery might be better, both might suck given the new land)
Tunnel Vision (for a kill with hinder/oblation/spell crumple)
Vitu-Ghazi (tokens for equipment)
Cloudstone Curio (since you're running Tezz)
Mistmeadow Witch (too situational? lousy topdeck?)
Expensive Eldrazi (but they have no synergy with the Birthing Pod)
Decree of Silence (seems very strong, an Academy Rector target)
Stormtide Leviathan (instead of Elesh Norn)
High Market (this card is just really strong)
Phew, long post.
P.S. - You are very right about Yavimaya Elder. I love the card, but he's just to clunky. The 3 mana elf ramp guys are just better.
Good reply. Glad to be able to have a competent conversation. In terms of the $$$, that is never a problem for me, my budget is unlimited.
I finally read through the entire thread, so now I have some context as to where you're coming from and what you've tested thus far.
I played a few games with the deck on MWS last night, and it's very obvious that the amount of effort you put into the deck is paying off. I noticed as well that the deck doesn't necessarily rely on bouncing its own stuff and repeatedly play things again, which is a good thing. It always had "new" things to do. Here are a ton of thoughts:
1. Rings of Brighthearth -- I know they're your pet card, but they feel like they're just "win more". In the games that I drew them, I wanted them to be something else. I'm going to try Wild Pair instead, as Wild Pair lets me tutor up more toolbox guys. This gives me a reason to push to run Academy Rector, which I saw you felt you didn't have enough targets for. I'm going to toy around with it for a while, even if it may not work out.
2. I saw you were debating about Acidic Slime over other removal guys. Slime is amazing, and you always want it over Indrik Stomphowler or Wickerborough Elder. It's even MORE amazing with Birthing Pod. And perfect for Reveillark. I want to draw Acidic Slime pretty much every game.
3. Birthing Pod - This is one of the best cards in the deck, and more importantly, it's "fun", which is what EDH is all about. This makes the lowly Wood Elves and Farhaven Elves absolutely amazing. There were several games where I was mana screwed, and I sacced out the elves to find a Solemn Simulacrum or Oracle of Mul Daya. Birthing Pod has amazing synergy with this deck, it's just so obvious. Even more so with Skullclamp.
4. Cards I was impressed with:
Cauldron of Souls - wow
Pact of Negation
Consecrated Sphinx
Wood Elves
Farhaven Elf
Phyrexian Metamorph
5. Jace, TMS - You're saying he doesn't live long enough, but man, this card has such synergy with the deck. I can relent and not play Elspeth, (I didn't miss her at all in the games I played), but bouncing with Jace seems like it could be really strong. Something I'll test.
6. Gilded Drake - I actually still think this card is really good. Treachery isn't so great anymore, but I do still think this guy is worth having in you're in a pinch.
Some concerns:
7. Greater Good - There was never a time I wanted to cast this. Moreover, I'm considering playing with Rafiq as the general instead of Jenara. With Rafig as the general, Greater Good actually feels like it has more value, given the Exalted and Double Strike bonuses.
8. Didn't get to see Elesh Norn or Avenger of Zendikar in action. Elesh Norn doesn't excite me that much, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try her.
9. Not a fan of the Darksteel Plate either. Who do we really want to protect? There are better choices than this I think. Maybe Nim Deathmantle? Maybe something else?
Some cards I came up with to put in, just from doing a lot of digging, and would be interested to hear your thoughts:
Spitting Image (amazing with late land topdecks, and fun)
Empyrial Archangel (tooth and nail)
Venser, Shaper Savant (curious why he isn't mentioned at all in this thread)
Rout (instant speed, I guess this deck doesn't leave mana untapped often)
Desertion (Bribery might be better, both might suck given the new land)
Tunnel Vision (for a kill with hinder/oblation/spell crumple)
Vitu-Ghazi (tokens for equipment)
Cloudstone Curio (since you're running Tezz)
Mistmeadow Witch (too situational? lousy topdeck?)
Expensive Eldrazi (but they have no synergy with the Birthing Pod)
Decree of Silence (seems very strong, an Academy Rector target)
Stormtide Leviathan (instead of Elesh Norn)
High Market (this card is just really strong)
Phew, long post.
P.S. - You are very right about Yavimaya Elder. I love the card, but he's just to clunky. The 3 mana elf ramp guys are just better.
Good post... I have a feeling that my response will be at least equally long to it.
To start things off I figure I will cover the Rafiq vs Jenara question. I personally feel that Jenara is a lot more threatening on her own. Rafiq sort of requires being set up with several other cards to give him evasion and power him up. The downside to this is that if someone drops something like an Oblivion Stone rafiq is a lot harder to kickstart again. Jenara powers herself up and even if you run out of things to do dropping her in is always a good plan. Her evasion is powerful and she scales a bit better into the end game assuming you plan on seeing things like O Stone and Austere Command throughout the game.
On the other hand though Rafiq does have a higher output potential. He can hit a lot harder and he can do it quicker. He does however require some measure of assistance to connect as otherwise chump blockers and token swarms will just chump him off all day. I think both commanders are great choices. I personally prefer Jenara as I can see a lot of non-creature hate and depending on the matchup a lot of wrath effects. I would say you might want to try them both out and see what you personally like. I think the decks need to run quite a bit differently though so to give Rafiq a good chance you might want to look up one of his lists as substituting rafiq right into the commander slot with the same decklist might not be so impressive.
As for your notice that bouncing things isnt really required for this list I have to totally agree. The card draw options out there are crazy. I end up having to discard all too often as I am drawing new threats too quickly so I dont bother with bouncing as it slows me down too much. I used to try things like Equilibrium but I have long since axed them.
1)Rings of Brighthearth I have to agree that this card might be getting close to being axed. I used to have more interactions with it but currently the primary interaction is to use fetchlands to ramp. That is clearly not enough interaction but there are other fun things to do with it such as Birthing Pod, Survival of the Fittest, and Mimic Vat but beyond those I am starting to run low on reasons to keep it in the list. I had actually been examining it earlier today as to whether it should stay or not. I cant say quite yet how I feel on the matter.
Good luck with the Wild Pair, let me know how it works out for you.
2) If I ever had any sort of questions as to if Acidic Slime is good enough there is no way I would ever axe it. I had been looking for additional cards to supplement it as I think it is a great card but it is currently like my only creature that I like that hates on noncreatures. I am a bit on the fence about how I feel about the Primus currently as it is feeling slow and clunky. Still... Acidic Slime isn't going anywhere.
3) Yes I do have to agree that Birthing Pod is absolutely crazy good. I went back and forth on it early after it was released but I dont think it is going anywhere. I have goten way too much card advantage out of it for it to go out again. I had to adjust some of my list to make the chains a bit better but I think that Solemn Simulacrum is ultimately a good addition to the deck. Without the pod though I wasnt a big fan of him but he has been working out just fine.
4) overview of cards you mentioned:
Cauldron of Souls it is really good but I am seeing less wrath happy opponents. I sort of wonder if I should continue to use it but then again it is crazy good. I love how I can just pay 2 mana for Jenara to loose her -/- counter and regain the ability to persist again. It has a good potential to really blow out those wraths. It has been a good card for me over my time playing Jenara. It just feels a bit slow for how it doesn't actually directly do much.
Pact of Negation I tap out sooooo much in this list that it really helps me have that ace in my pocket for that oh **** moment.
Consecrated Sphinx I try to keep the curve down so that I can play a lot off of this guy. I think it is just an amazing creature anywhere so it is hard to say it is much better in this list vs another though.
Wood Elves / Farhaven Elf these guys have really panned out well for me. The fact that I can rez them or pod them off has really improved their use for me. I love clamping them for cards. I cant even immagine running Cultivate in their place.
Phyrexian Metamorph I didnt have a clone effect in my deck for some time but omg I cant even immagine not having this guy. He is really nice as he can rez off of Lark as well which I have done on occasion to hate on opposing commanders more.
5) I could understand trying out Jace. I dont actually own one so I will need to trade into one but his bounce does sound like fun. I just worry about how difficult he can be to protect in a multiplayer game. I will try to make a point to proxy him up at some point though. As for Elspeth, my biggest problem there was that I would go on defense to try to protect her but every time I would get blown out by some sort of Woodfall Primus effect. Never once did I hit her ultimate. I think she is probably solid depending on how well you can protect her. As I run low counterspells I found it too hard to make her useful. Her spawning 1/1s is sort of moot so she got cut.
6) I have gone both ways on the inclusion of Gilded Drake. When it comes down to it he is a creature who is easily tutored for if need be that can be flickered with venser or rezed with Sun Titan. There are lots of uses for it and it freaks people out to know that I have it in hand. I dont think I could really bring myself to run Treachery but if someone pops homeward I still get a 3/3 flyer back. It has been a decent piece of utility that has goten through a lot of hard times. He also sort of paired with Bribery got people in my meta to stop running Blightsteel Colosus.
7)Greater Good you might have a point. I have been running this card since the creation of the deck. I used to have a lot more larger creatures to the deck and less card draw / card advantage options available. I might take a look at cutting this out. I hadn't really thought about it though. I might take a look at it over the span of a few games. I do like the card though as it is a good card draw outlet but usually I have problems using all of the cards I draw. I cant say for sure yet but I will look into it.
8) Ok I will do 2 quick seperate rundowns on both creatures:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite ok the big thing here isnt her buff but her -2/-2 to opposing creatures. She is best when facing token strategies or swarm decks. If you see more control and or combo decks in your meta she isnt as good. I dont think she is neccesary by any means but she gives me some control in creature form that is easier to tutor up / recur. I have had her in and out depending on what I am facing regularly. Of late I have 2 token swarm decks between Rhys the Redeemed and Hazezon Tamar. I also used her a few times when opposing slivers to shut down his horde of creatures quite effectively. The buff to your own creatures is nice but I wouldnt run it exclusively for that. If you dont see many of these types of decks I would absolutely cut her out. I didnt use her for most of the time she has been legal and only recently included her back in to face these strategies. She is really solid to pull out of a birthing pod though for a big strike with utility guys. Don't underestimate it its sort of like having an overrun and a mini wrath all in one card.
Avenger of Zendikar There are honestly a lot of times where this isnt that impressive to drop. Also when you drop him you will often be responded to by a wrath effect. If you are facing token swarms though it is really solid to have. Most of the time I utilize him in a Tooth and Nail to get him + Glen Elendra Archmage to have a good wrath proof army. There are other times where he is really solid as well though such as someone else is getting carried away and you want to push a wrath or if you run low on cards in hand you can skullclamp the tokens before dropping a land to draw tons of cards and still have chump blockers. He is also a champ if you have Cauldron of Souls in play as he will spawn a whole new wave of tokens when he comes back. He isnt perfect for every situation but he is very powerful.
9) I always find there is something worth protecting with Darksteel Plate. I like putting it on any of the following:
Akroma, Angel of Wrath akroma is already scary as is and she is usually responded to by wrathing her off. An indestructable Akroma is really scarry though. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite token strategies throw a fit when they cant kill your Elesh Norn. She completely holds a lot of decks at bay and if you harden her up she is really mean. Primeval Titan this guy is rediculously hard to stick to the board. Everyone wants to kill, copy, and steal him so if you can strap a plate to him you can at least try to force them to exile him to get rid of him. Sun Titan strap a plate to him and just keep wrathing with Oblivion Stone and rezing it. Fun strategy that I have used a few times. If you are against a wrath happy opponent this can let you recover all by himself as he keeps rezing utility guys back for you. Consecrated Sphinx who doesnt try to stop the lolz card draw. I have really screwed some opponents over by making this bugger indestructible. Jenara, Asura of War makes it so that putting counters on her is even more solid. Sometimes I dont like leveling her up because it just attracts the removal but when she is harder to kill I feel a bit safer doing it.
Beyond those you can strap a plate to anything to just use it as a dummy blocker. Nobody really wants to swing at you if the response is just bounce off a brick wall. Again though if you dont see much removal this isnt a requirement. It is something that I brought in when I was forced to deal with too many wrath effects.
As to why I dont run Nim Deathmantle, that is primarily due to the fact that it requires a lot of mana to use. If I were to change the deck to be more of a control deck I think it would be the perfect addition. However I see more turns where I am tapped out than not. I have a lot of card drawing / advantage and I tend to try to use cards so I dont have to discard. It is mainly my own preference however I think it could be a good card especially if you wanted to turn Jenara into more of a control deck with more counterspells.
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I will run through the random cards you mentioned and why I decided against them:
Spitting Image We have at least 3 dedicated graveyard abuse decks in our meta and graveyard hate is already really high. This spell costs a lot to cast and I can never have too many lands. If I have extra lands that means that I can keep mana open to use control spells, level up Jenara, or just play more spells in a turn. I have such good card draw / card advantage that it is very scarce for my hand to not be mostly full or overfull. I also dont like how this spell targets which the normal clone varients do not. This means that I cant hit commanders behind boots or hit Uril, the Miststalker at all who used to be a big problem for me. I try to balance how much graveyard abuse I have as it can really bring in a whole new set of issues. Also trying to pay 6 mana to cast this thing all the time is a total bear. It isnt a terrible card but due to its limitations I dont care too much for it. I can never have enough land in play either as I always have more to do.
Empyrial Archangel I am a huge spike player who always wants immediate results from everything I play. I think the archangel is sort of cool but it doesnt do anything right away which I dont like. Also I am comming from a meta where I used to sit down with 3 opposing decks all running 8-10 wrath effects. She isnt gona live long in that sort of environment. If you see a lot less wrathing I could see her being good however keep in mind that she costs a lot of mana. I am a lot more for Akroma, Angel of Wrath due to her having all of her amazing abilities and she is really good on defense as well due to her vigilance.
Venser, Shaper Savant I dont run him in here because he is too control oriented. If I wanted to change how my deck ran and turned it more responsive / controlling I would say he is perfect then. However I tap out way too often and I havent found bounce to be that effective for what I am doing. Therefore while I think he is really cool I am tapped down too often for him to be amazing.
Rout great wrath and probably the next one that I would add to the list. I just only have so many openings and I have found 3 wrath effects to be arround where I want it. I could see this going in next though for sure if you feel you want a 4th.
Desertion I ran it for a while and just found that I tap out too often to try to keep 5 mana up. I think it is great and in a more reactive control version I think it would be amazing. But yes I did run it for a bit and found I had too little mana open too often to run it when I needed it. I like the 3 or less mana options of control for my current list as it is a lot easier to keep up.
Tunnel Vision We used to see a lot more eldrazi so this sort of turned to crap but I could see potentially using it now. I just hadnt really thought much of it. The downside here is that tunnel vision is a lot worse if you dont have a tuck spell than it would be to set up a lark combo as like all the cards in a lark combo are good for the deck.
Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree honestly I dont have a whole lot of use for a 1/1 token. I hate lands that tap for colorless as they slow down my start. I really like hitting Jenara on turn 3 as it really makes opponents choose between answering her and disrupting their own start or just taking some early damage. I dont even level her up I just swing for 3 a turn for a few turns and it usually pans out really well. Due to this I dont run more colorless lands than I feel are really necessary. I would be prone to adding Homeward Path, Reliquary Tower, and perhaps Mistifying Maze all before I would consider Vitu-Ghazi
Cloudstone Curio bounce just hasnt been that impressive. I like Equilibrium more than I do the Curio due to the fact that I can bounce opposing creatures but even then I usually have plenty of things to do without bouncing creatures anyways. It isnt terrible though but I might even consider running Crystal Shard before the curio. Even then I dont run any of these effects anymore.
Mistmeadow Witch this comes back to me being tapped out too often. I think it is a great card but unfortunately it requires another good card to make it good and mana open to flicker in response to things. It just totals up to be too much of a control card for my build.
Expensive Eldrazi Starting out I had a lot more graveyard tactics in this deck. More recently though I dont bother with them as they tend to be somewhat easily removed as everyone freaks out about them and they really destroy the average cc as they are super slow to cast. I tried Ulamog again a few months back and just didnt like him in the deck at all.
Decree of Silence I think this card is a lot better in heads up. It seems to me like everyone just throws some crappy cards at it and it is dead by the time the turn rolls back to me. Again I sort of wonder if this might be better in a control oriented version of the deck. I suppose it could be decent in an agro but still its multiplayer and it would just burn through its counters quickly. Also it is sort of spendy to cast out for how random its results seems like it would be.
Stormtide Leviathan someone else played one of these the other day and it was actually really good for me. It might be worth considering as it really does hurt a lot of other decks. I havent actually played it myself though so I cant say.
High Market again it sort of comes down to the whole colorless land. I think it is a great land though and I have used it for lots of good uses in the past.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Just a quick response before I read the rest of the post. Don't forget that Rafiq powers up all of your other guys too. He gives *any* of them exalted and double strike. I'm only really casting Rafiq (or Jenara) if I really have nothing better to do anyway, as opposed to say a general like Sedris or Teferi.
And regarding Equilibrium... I absolutely LOVE this card. I play with it in cube drafts, but in EDH, I have to assume it's too weak and probably makes you the "bad guy".
Reading the rest of your post now.
EDIT - Re: Acidic Slime -- You can play Viridian Shaman or Uktabi Orangutan if you want another 2/2 guy that kills stuff. The 3 mana creatures work so well with Birthing Pod.
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1. Cauldron of Souls is AMAZING with Birthing Pod. DO NOT FORGET THIS!!! I used Cauldron also with Acidic Slime last night which was amazing. And also with Karmic Guide. I thought the Cauldron seemed dumb until I saw it in action. It's quite good.
2. Phyrexian Metamorph is also an Academy Ruins target. As is Solemn Simulacrum. The the latter is amazing with Cauldron of Souls. In fact, just thinking about Cauldron excites me more and more to be honest.
3. Re: Jace, TMS. Just proxy it, and then if you decide he's worth it, start getting some trades together. Not "owning" a card is not a good reason to exclude it from your decklist. Unless you play sanctioned EDH, you can even go to kinkos and print out some proxies and superglue them onto commons. I have a couple cards like that in my cube and at the end of the day, it's more fun to have Imperial Recruiter than not.
4. You've convinced me that Elspeth isn't really worth it. And no real synergy with the deck.
5. The Gilded Drake is still worth running for the reasons you mentioned, and there are times when his ability sticks.
6. I could be convinced to keep Greater Good, but at a quick first glance it didn't seem necessary. It didn't feel like the deck was short on cards in most cases anyway. Personally, I'd like to at least start with an Academy Rector package with Wild Pair and possibly another enchantment or two. We could brainstorm to figure out what else might belong in this deck. Can you give me some more detail on your experience with Academy Rector? Do you feel strongly against running it? I'm not 100% on Wild Pair either, but it just seems like a fun thing to try given all of the 2/2 guys. That reminds me.
7. That reminds me... Rhystic Study seems very suspect to me. I saw you defend it in a couple of arguments but I just feel like there could be better options. Especially since we're blue. I'm going to look into this.
8. As an off note... I don't see this deck as being that aggressive, yet you allude to its aggressiveness in a lot of your posts, including your previous post. I see it as very mid-range with a lot of controlish elements. Which is exactly why I like it.
Honestly, 7-9 cards (if you count the two swords) out of 100 is pretty good. And overall I think you've done a very exellent job with both the deck and this forum thread.
Points #6 and #7 I think require a bit more discussion, as well as the suspect cards, which we've gone over a little bit.
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1. Cauldron of Souls is AMAZING with Birthing Pod. DO NOT FORGET THIS!!! I used Cauldron also with Acidic Slime last night which was amazing. And also with Karmic Guide. I thought the Cauldron seemed dumb until I saw it in action. It's quite good.
2. Phyrexian Metamorph is also an Academy Ruins target. As is Solemn Simulacrum. The the latter is amazing with Cauldron of Souls. In fact, just thinking about Cauldron excites me more and more to be honest.
3. Re: Jace, TMS. Just proxy it, and then if you decide he's worth it, start getting some trades together. Not "owning" a card is not a good reason to exclude it from your decklist. Unless you play sanctioned EDH, you can even go to kinkos and print out some proxies and superglue them onto commons. I have a couple cards like that in my cube and at the end of the day, it's more fun to have Imperial Recruiter than not.
4. You've convinced me that Elspeth isn't really worth it. And no real synergy with the deck.
5. The Gilded Drake is still worth running for the reasons you mentioned, and there are times when his ability sticks.
6. I could be convinced to keep Greater Good, but at a quick first glance it didn't seem necessary. It didn't feel like the deck was short on cards in most cases anyway. Personally, I'd like to at least start with an Academy Rector package with Wild Pair and possibly another enchantment or two. We could brainstorm to figure out what else might belong in this deck. Can you give me some more detail on your experience with Academy Rector? Do you feel strongly against running it? I'm not 100% on Wild Pair either, but it just seems like a fun thing to try given all of the 2/2 guys. That reminds me.
7. That reminds me... Rhystic Study seems very suspect to me. I saw you defend it in a couple of arguments but I just feel like there could be better options. Especially since we're blue. I'm going to look into this.
8. As an off note... I don't see this deck as being that aggressive, yet you allude to its aggressiveness in a lot of your posts, including your previous post. I see it as very mid-range with a lot of controlish elements. Which is exactly why I like it.
Honestly, 7-9 cards (if you count the two swords) out of 100 is pretty good. And overall I think you've done a very exellent job with both the deck and this forum thread.
Points #6 and #7 I think require a bit more discussion, as well as the suspect cards, which we've gone over a little bit.
1) Along your same point of Cauldron being amazing with Birthing Pod keep in mind that you can use Cauldron with Greater Good to draw some lolz cards. The upside there would be that you can keep it untapped until you know your opponents arent going to run you over. It isnt much but it is another option. And yes the Cauldron is really really good. But sometimes it draws some hate due to that.
2) good points that both point to how amazing all of those cards really are. The Academy Ruins has been very amazing in the few games I have gotten it running.
3) I will give him a shot. I had honestly considered Jace TMS as mainly a topdeck manipulation card but I suppose he has a lot of solidly good abilities that I should really give him a shot myself. Proxies are no problem for me so I will proxy him up and try to squeeze him in somewhere.
4) I agree she really lacks synergy with the deck and there isnt much that her vanilla tokens do for us. If you cant consistently ultimate her she is doing very little. Also it gets us to go really defensive for several turns which can really bite us in the ass if someone combos out because we tried defending a planeswalker.
5) I agree that his random utility is occasionaly gamebreaking. The fact that it is on a creature as well is really powerful as it gives us a means to tutor it up. Unlike Sower of Temptation there is no incentive to kill our stuff and he is easier to flicker and abuse. Dont forget you can always Oblation the drake after you trade to draw 2 cards and remove their threat lol.
6) Honestly I think I might end up cutting Greater Good. There is a lot of smaller utility in this deck and honestly the deck isnt hurting for card draw. I think this is just an example of a card that has outlived its use and I hadnt really noticed it due to having always had it in the list. I dont think it is a terrible card for the list but I also sort of feel like it could easily be something else. It is a really solid card but it isnt the best of my card draw by any means.
7) Honestly I wouldn't consider Rhystic Study as card draw as much as temp swing. It slows down my opponents and makes it increasingly difficult to do multiple things in a turn. On occasion it will draw a ton of cards as well. Dropping it off a turn 2 Sol Ring really breaks opponents opening ramp and either slows them down or draws us tons of cards. It is sort of a dual purpose. I will admit that it isn't the most impressive card later in the game but it draws soooo little hate because people would rather play around it than to answer it. I would be more for cutting Greater Good currently than I would Rhystic Study.
8) You are right. While I take sort of a midrange approach I am not strictly an agro deck. I have a lot of toolboxing to this list and I do have a lot of answers. However considering I have only 3 counters and 3 wraths I have a hard time calling it a control deck. But you are right it really isnt a dedicated agro deck anymore. At one point I had probably half of the answers that I currently do and a lot more creature support. I have changed the deck up a bit since then and it is a much better rounded deck that isnt as prone to be vulnerable to any one tactic. There are enough creatures in here that I make it hard to swing at me. If someone does have something bigger than I then I usually just zap it with a spot removal. It really isnt a pure agro deck anymore. Hummm not really sure what I would call it offhand though.
9) If you have problems with spot removal especially stuff that exiles like Swords to Plowshares you might move this to be a Lightning Greaves. This spot could probably be one of a number of options. I just found that the plate served my needs the best of them.
11) Not really any particular reason as to why I don't run Vendilion Clique in here. It has made an appearance or two in the past but my biggest problem is that unless there is a specific combo deck or someone tutors for something later in the game I have always had some problems picking my target for it in multiplayer. I could really see it being really solid if you picked up more bounce / flickering as you could hit people repeatedly with it then. I guess I just have yet to have a really solid play with it. I think it would be really fun with more bounce so you could tuck commanders while in hands and what not. I guess I just haven't had enough exposure to it and had it work out for me all that well in multiplayer. I wouldn't mind hearing how you would use it though as I just couldn't make it feel like it was worth the spot.
As for some of the cards you pointed out: Stoneforge Mystic assuming that drawing an equipment is good enough for this deck this guy replaces himself in hand in a toolbox approach. I have used him plenty in standard and he is a complete house. The only way I would personally cut him is if I cut back on my equipment package. I also like how he can cheat the equipment in at end of turn. This does open up some options to fake answers or use answers instead of playing the equipment if need be. If you keep the equipment in I would suggest giving him a bit longer. I dont see drawing him as a downside. Also it means that I can turn my creature tutors into an equipment tutor which is handy to have.
Rings of Brighthearth I am starting to agree with you here. I just dont have enough cards that it intereacts with to keep it anymore. I think it will be the next card out.
Greater Good I also feel like I have too few big creatures to utilize here. I think it is a good card but my decklist has changed quite a bit and I am good on my card draw currently.
Fierce Empath I actually really like this guy as I get a body to abuse with the equipment, birthing pod, recursion tactics, persist with the cauldron. I just feel like he has 101 uses and he is another toolbox. If I have a skullclamp or birthing pod in play I can drop him tutoring a Sun Titan to hand then clamp / pod him off to the next thing and abuse it again with the Sun Titan. I would say play with him a bit more before judging. I used to not like this guy but now he is my favorite card for toolboxing thos big guys out.
Brutalizer Exarch honestly I go back and forth with this guy. I am not completely sold on him but at the same time there are games where he just completely breaks the game for me by tucking an indestructable target like Darksteel Forge or Darksteel Plate which can be totally a pain in the ass otherwise. On the other hand there are times where I wish I could just kill something and he lets someone tutor it back up and I get pissed off. I am not completely sold one way or another as of yet though.
It will take me a bit of time to figure out what replacements might be coming in for the Rings / Greater Good. I will update when I figure it out though.
Also, I still like Mystic Snake. Reading your post now.
Yes Mystic Snake is among the top of the counters that I am currently not using. I would also consider Voidslime as a very solid counter as occasionally I really want to counter an ability. However currently the ability to tuck spells is more effective than getting a body or hitting an ability. The snake is fun off of a Mimic Vat though thats for sure.
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Which leaves you with a couple options to try. Maybe another equipment to get some more value out of the Stoneforge? Maybe Vendilion Clique? Maybe another cheap enchantment? This is the digging I was alluding to in one of my earlier posts.
Don't forget, Vitu-Ghazi, while colorless, gives you something to do with your equipment, especially the skullclamp.
You've convinced me to keep everything else in, other than the Rhystic Study.
So to sum it all up, I think the three main suspects to me now are:
Rhystic Study
Greater Good
Rings of Brighthearth
In these three *amazing* colors, there MUST be some really sweet upgrades.
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Which leaves you with a couple options to try. Maybe another equipment to get some more value out of the Stoneforge? Maybe Vendilion Clique? Maybe another cheap enchantment? This is the digging I was alluding to in one of my earlier posts.
Don't forget, Vitu-Ghazi, while colorless, gives you something to do with your equipment, especially the skullclamp.
Another option would be to add Mirror Entity which would re-enable my lark combo if I so chose to. I stripped the Entity a while back because I felt sort of bad doing it.
I am not entirely sure what other equipment I would run. I ran Umezawa's Jitte for a bit but I found it a bit underwhelming in comparison to the others. Sword of Feast and Famine would give me a nice untap effect which would allow me to level up Jenara and keep more control open beyond my own turn... Hummm I will have to think on it a bit.
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I like the idea of adding the Mirror Entity back as an option. Umezawa's Jitte is a little clunky, it forces you to make some bad attacks sometimes, and possibly make enemies.
I'd like to see maybe another artifact or enchant, equipment for the stoneforge maybe?
Also, it's still good to keep the creature count high, and play "secret" card advantage. "Secret" meaning a card like Wood Elves.
I have a whole long list of more options, but a lot of them I just don't like.
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I like the idea of adding the Mirror Entity back as an option. Umezawa's Jitte is a little clunky, it forces you to make some bad attacks sometimes, and possibly make enemies.
I'd like to see maybe another artifact or enchant, equipment for the stoneforge maybe?
Also, it's still good to keep the creature count high, and play "secret" card advantage. "Secret" meaning a card like Wood Elves.
I have a whole long list of more options, but a lot of them I just don't like.
Hummm sounds good for now I will make it Jace TMS and Mirror Entity as the replacements.
Its not as if I havent mauled someone to death before with 4 1/1 utility guys that Mirror Entity juiced to be 13/13s lol
I will keep looking to see if there is anything else better I can come up with either.
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Yeah ha. There must still be some more good options for a deck like this. Here are just some random cards from my list that we haven't yet discussed. Most of them are probably sub par, but they all do stuff, and maybe will spark an idea:
I feel like there have to be some enchantments that are being completely overlooked. Twilight Shepherd makes you kind of wrath-proof, but the card doesn't excite me. Just a specific one to point out since you mentioned wraths a few times.
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Yeah ha. There must still be some more good options for a deck like this. Here are just some random cards from my list that we haven't yet discussed. Most of them are probably sub par, but they all do stuff, and maybe will spark an idea:
I feel like there have to be some enchantments that are being completely overlooked. Twilight Shepherd makes you kind of wrath-proof, but the card doesn't excite me. Just a specific one to point out since you mentioned wraths a few times.
I will run through the ones you mentioned so far with my thoughts.
Sylvan Tutor Sadly Worldly Tutor just sinks this card. I have on occasion considered adding Worldly Tutor in the past though. It is a solid card I just dont know if I need a creature tutor that is net card loss... It is an option to say the least though.
Green Sun's Zenith I love me some green sun. Sadly I feel like there are more nongreen creatures that I would want to go get than there are green creatures.
Garruk Wildspeaker I have always had a problem with him in EDH. Planeswalkers just draw a ton of hate and I dont feel like his effect is powerful enough based on the hate that planeswalkers just naturally draw to themselves.
Twilight Shepherd Honestly I dont know how I feel about her entirely. She isn't that impressive of a creature on her own however I can do things like birthing pod into her or pop an oblivion stone with her in play to regain it all. I might have to look into her closer. I have also thought a bit about Ghostway. Maybe I will have to make a point to try out the shepard at some point. I do like creatures that persist as they make for some solid threats.
Keiga, the Tide Star theft is sort of a hard deal these days with Homeward Path. Also Keiga isnt very useful if someone just wraths because there are no targets left to hit. I liked Keiga more in my Teferi list where I would just surprise people with it.
Miraculous Recovery A good card for sure. I have also considered Marshal's Anthem for similar rez. I would probably be more prone to running the anthem to be honest due to the ability to rez multiple creatures. Still I might even run Regrowth over both of them due to its ability to return anything I need. I have been trying to stay away from leaning too heavily on my graveyard of late though due to the amount of grave hate I have been seeing though. All of them are good options though.
Vesuvan Shapeshifter I dont care to run too many clone varients in here. I dont see much utility that they give me that I dont already have as is. I already have the Metamorph and body double. Beyond that I shouldnt need much more clone effects.
Wall of Blossoms / Wall of Omens / Elvish Visionary out of the three of them I would probably be most likely to run the Elvish Visionary. I like how I could equip it up and swing in. Generally speaking I am not too afraid of any creature that is smaller than 4 power as I could probably just take the hitpoints so the things that the walls could block that the visionary cant survive are fairly small on my worries. I have considered running the Visionary though as it is a good creature. It really is just another Coiling Oracle
Flickerwisp it is alright but it requires a second card to be usable at all. I would rather use Momentary Blink which I have considered a few times. If Flickerwisp had flash I would probably use it then. Sorcery speed though and requires a second card to use makes me sort of meh it though.
Kitchen Finks I know a lot of rafiq decks like to run these guys. They aren't terrible but a bit of lifegain isn't that important to me. Also I just stripped out my Greater Good which they tend to be utilized with.
Dauntless Escort I dont really like how he isnt that great of a creature on his own. He requires you to play out several other good threats and hopefully he will be good then. Even then though if someone uses Hallowed Burial, Final Judgment, Mutilate, Black Sun's Zenith, Death Cloud, Evacuation he isnt that great. The other option is just to spot kill him at end of turn before you wrath so I feel like there are just too many ways to get around it.
Qasali Pridemage ran him for a bit but I didnt like how he sacrificed to do his ability. I changed to Brutalizer Exarch due to the fact that he is a bit better when abused, recurred, flickered, persisted.
Mirari's Wake these effects just dont stick in my meta. Also it screwed with my lark combo because the Mirror Entity activation would make my guys 1/1s instead of 0/0s and thus not kill them. Its a good card it just draws more hate than it is worth in my meta.
Knight-Captain of Eos I didnt feel it was agressive enough. I dont care much for token spawning and this feels really small scale. I think I would run Spike Weaver instead if I were going to run something on this scale. If I did more flickering / rezing I could see the token spawning being sort of fun here. He feels a bit overcosted though especially for feeling like a bad Spike Weaver.
Spike Weaver good creature but I just hate relying on him to protect me and hope to god nobody has an answer for him. I go back and forth. He is nice as he can rez off of Lark but again I would hate to rely on him fogging for me just to go woops I guess I take it.
Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant My creatures already win in combat usually. This deck out agros most of my opposition and red burn has never really been a problem.
Darksteel Ingot I have actually considered this once or twice due to some of the mass LD that is floating about but still I dont know entirely. I dont need it as ramp or fix as I have those covered now. Beyond the occasional Catastrophe I dont care much for mana stones.
Batterskull I ran it for a bit and the problem was that I had a hard time keeping mana up to protect it. I suppose I could run it with just the assumption that if it dies it dies but I felt like a lot of turns were eaten up trying to protect this thing. It is a bit slow but it is good if you really get to abuse it.
Sakashima the Impostor I try not to run too many clone effects because they are generally very responsive. I try to take a proactive approach with this deck and creatures that have to sit in hand until a good threat comes along sort of annoy me. On top of that cloneing a good target doesnt even really answer it as you still have the original to deal with.
Sanctum Gargoyle he isnt bad but I sort of wonder if just a Regrowth would be better due to the ability to hit anything. Still it is sort of like white's Eternal Witness.
Cryptic Command Originally I stayed away from it due to the high blue cost. I could probably swing it with my manabase today but it could still be tricky in the early game. I do like the options it has but again I would have to give up a spot somewhere or move my deck to be a bit more responsive with more counters. I dont think I like it more than my current counters.
Stonecloaker it is some good grave hate and nifty bounce. I cut him a ways back due to having issues keeping mana up on my opponents turns. While I am not completely an agro deck I tend to tap out a lot and I would need to go to more of a Draw, go style deck to run more of these flash cards and instants. Also there is the problem that I tend to always have more things to play. The last thing I need to do is spend time and mana recasting things I already played.
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EDIT: To be honest though I cant say how much this deck really needs additional creatures. I feel like the number of utility creatures and the number of finishers is just about where I like it currently. I might be able to see another answer or two especially to throw some kinks into the combo machine. I had considered Return to Dust or perhaps Dismantling Blow but they both feel sort of mana heavy.
Oh... Regrowth. I absolutely am a fan of that card. That's a pretty good option. Like you said before though, I'm not sure the deck needs to "look backwards" at the graveyard. It feels like it can usually "look ahead" to the cards in the player's hand. That being said though, people often don't realize that a card like Regrowth is actually a "tutor" effect, in that you're digging out an exact answer, albeit from a subset of the entire deck. It's basically green's "lite" version of Demonic Tutor. The power of "choice" is very strong and possibly worth of the two mana and the card slot.
My original list from a while back had Dismantling Blow. It's a good card, but it's just "boring".
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Quick change: Phyrexian Ingester -> Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite I already have duplicant which is sort of a similar option but he can still be rezed off Lark and costs one less mana but is still tutorable off of Fierce Empath. While having 2 of these guys was sort of fun they are expensive to cast and fill the same role. I dont have a good way of removing a bunch of smaller tokens / utility guys short of one of my 3 wraths so Elesh gives me another option. It also gives me an option to do an alpha strike with small utility guys pumping them up to be beefy. I will try to report back on how it works but with how decks are being modified she seems very promising.
EDIT: I suppose I should thank Shishizaru for this suggestion. It sort of stuck in my head in the last week when I was playing some games so I figured I would try it out. Thx again
Also my Tundra came in the mail on Monday which I am super happy to have. It is in NM condition from 3rd ED which is fairly nice. I am super excited to use it.
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[Modern] Allies
Seedborn Muse also works with a lot of your stuff, especially your general.
Mistmeadow Witch really a cool card and it could be crazy amazing. Sadly I do a lot in my turns and I get wrathed a lot. I just dont have the mana open every turn to try blinking things. Also as a downside this guy doesnt have any effects if flickered itself so it relies on other cards to be decent. I could see him being amazing in more of a controlling style list that keeps mana open for counterspells. Cool card but the fact that it doesnt do anything itself and I have a hard time keeping 4 mana up keeps him from being added to my own list.
Momentary Blink honestly if this flickered until end of turn it would totally be in my list already. Sadly most of the removal I see is wraths and this doesnt help vs that. Sure it is 2 ETB effects in a row but again it is relying on another card to operate, it cant really be easily tutored, and it doesnt protect from wraths which is what I sort of need in my flicker effects. Ghostway is probably more likely for me to use especially considering its positive interaction with Eternal Witness. Even then though I have problems with these effects requiring other cards to line up to be good and sort of suck in opening hands as they are too reactive. I have also considered running Vanish into Memory again which is really fun to use on Jenara which can protect her and turn her +/+ counters into card draw which is super tasty. Again though I have problems keeping 4 mana open consistently which is why I don't run it.
Seedborn Muse I ran this early in this deck's list and my biggest problem is that this deck isnt a big control list. If I ran more counterspells then untapping is a lot better. However all I really have is to dump mana into Jenara. Also this thing is like a wrath magnet. People totally hate this guy and it is prone to be removed very quickly. I just didnt find it to pan out much for how much hate it attracted. Seriously when I would drop it in it was like ZOMG Consecrated Sphinx or something. But unfortunately it was harder for me to utilize and died about as often. Plus no immediate effect and its hard for me to utilize.
I think all 3 of them are great cards but sadly the Witch and Muse are better in a control list with more counterspells / instant speed stuff to do like Teferi / flash guys. The blink is cool with its 2 ETB triggers but sadly its protection isnt quite what I need for my meta. Good cards but they just haven't been what I need in my list.
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[Modern] Allies
Avenger of Zendikar + Regal Force This gets an army of guys and backs it by drawing a ton of cards. This is great as once the tooth and Nail has been allowd to resolve there is nothing to stop the card draw off of this monster but a stifle effect. (or I suppose a Starstorm / cycled Decree of Pain style effect). I ran this combo for a bit early in my Jenara list but I found that Regal Force was lacking outside of doing this Tooth and Nail combo. So I cut him based on the fact that he wasnt good enough on his own.
Palinchron + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger infinite mana. I considered this combo a few times but sadly I dont have much to do with infinite mana other than pump Jenara way up or overextend my board position. Either way I felt that it didnt impact the board enough to be included and both creatures were a bit lacking on their own to be included in the list.
While a Seedborn + Mistmeadow brought out by a tooth and nail could be fun I dont find it as dramatic as what I usually do currently. My two most used combinations are probably as follows:
Avenger of Zendikar + Glen Elendra Archmage an army of guys with 2 counterspell protections. I see so much removal that Avenger by himself is usually just responded to by wrathing. So this really makes it hard to respond in that way. This often kills several opponents when I manage to pull this out.
Primeval Titan + Eternal Witness If I need more board development I usually drop this and use the witness to pull back the tooth and nail. From here if I get wrathed I can always cast tooth and nail next turn using body double to copy the E witness. If the witness is still alive I can use the phyrexian metamorph to copy the E Witness. Either way I can chain this on a few times really utilizing tooth and nail a lot if I want to.
When it comes to creatures that I use I try to have them be overall good for my deck. There are a few combos that are cool while using tooth and nail but if I feel like they are overall a bad addition to a deck then I don't like including them.
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[Modern] Allies
My meta is changing a bit more away from the everyone packing 8-10 wraths per deck. I might need to reevaluate some of my card options due to this. I have an annoying Nin deck that runs some storm combos as well as 2 more token decks that I regularly run into. I will try to get more feedback on how my Jenara list plays vs them but I have noticed that outside of a few select cards like Elesh Norn and the wraths that I don't really have a good solution to token strategies. I will try to get in a few more games before I really decide if I need to shift much but less wrathing has definitely been noticeable.
Also I am in the middle of selling a large portion of my cards to cash in on the other 2 original duals for this deck as well as 3 original duals for my Sek'Kuar deck. It will require a lot of my cards to go but I feel it is worth doing. I will update more when I get this accomplished.
EDIT: OVER 9,000!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry I just noticed that this page was at 9002 views and that was the first thing I thought of ahhhh good old DBZ references.
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[Modern] Allies
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
What about Wild Pair? It allows for pretty abusive things to happen.
I'll have more to comment on later in regards to the deck, but I'm a big fan of U/W/G in general.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
This is extremely true. I have seen lots of other control based Jenara lists and I think she can make for a good candidate for this. Her ability to level up can let you control the board until the end of your opponents turns then power her up into a mighty beating machine at the end of them. I think that is one of my favorite aspects of her is just the raw versatility of Bant and that she doesnt really commit you to any one build.
I am just a sucker for agro so I built her as such. I have a surprisingly good amount of control though for being an agro build though.
Wild Pair is a good card. If you run it creature heavy Lurking Predators is also a good call. I had this phase though where everyone in my meta ran Terastodon.deck and these effects just got me hated off. I think they are great potential cards for the deck it just wasnt working in my meta. I personally have not run it but I would be interested to hear how it pans out if you play it.
EDIT: Also I think that I might end up taking out my Cauldron of Souls as my opponents aren't wrathing enough for me to find it as useful anymore.
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[Modern] Allies
1. Is there any reason you're not running any mana ramping artifacts other than Sol Ring, like signets, Coalition Relic, Grim Monolith or a Darksteel Ingot? I apologize in advance if this has already been addressed elsewhere in this thread.
2. Regarding Trinket Mage: I'm a fan of the package, and I'm considering running Expedition Map in here as another target. Any reason you're not running Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod, and Tree of Tales? No Relic of Progenitus? Not necessary with Scavenging Ooze I guess?
3. What is the main artifact you're looking for with Tezzeret? You're only running a few in there anyway. I could use a quick sell from you as to why you run him over, say, Jace TMS.
4. Are the two swords really worthy of the Stoneforge Mystic? How good are the swords in this deck?
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
1) To be honest usually when it comes to ramping land vs mana stones I usually find ramping land to be superior. I see a lot of art / enchantment hate in my meta and it is normal to see an O Stone or two go off in a game. Unless you see a high density of mass LD or something I don't really see the reason to run mana stones. In the few decks that I do run mana stones I find that they become a large target due to the fact that they often give me multiple mana per target. Things like Terastodon can pick up a Gilded Lotus a lot easier than it can pick up 2-3 lands.
In addition I used to run more of the standard land ramp like Cultivate and Kodama's Reach. In an attempt to increase my creature density these effects turned into Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves as I can sac them off to things like birthing pod or equip them up or recur them with Lark. I have found that they have become a bit better than traditional land ramp due to this as I have so many ways to abuse them.
2) Trinket Mage it really a champ. To be honest though for the 2 other cards you mentioned:
I dont run Expedition Map because I have so little utility land. The reason I run so little utility land is because we see somewhat of a high density of strip mine type effects. The green decks can also pick off utility lands quite easily and I have gone to the point where I would rather run less utility land and get stripped less often. I cant think of much utility I feel I would really like to add to my list currently beyond Homeward Path, Reliquary Tower, and perhaps Mistifying Maze if I wanted more. However I dont like lands that tap for colorless mana and or come in tapped when I can avoid it. These lands make it very difficult to land Jenara on turn 3 which I usually put a high emphasis on just to push some early damage in. Honestly if I ran more utility lands I would probably bring Knight of the Reliquary back in before I would run the Map. It is just one of those cards that I dont really have that great of targets for in this deck.
The artifact lands have almost no benefit for me to be honest. I run so many fetch lands and dual lands now that I cant even remember the last time I had mana problems. I am currently in the process of obtaining my last two 3rd edition duals so I will be at 6 fetchland targetable duals and 8 fetchlands at the end of it so I think my mana fixing is just fine. The downside to these artifact lands is if someone drops a Austere Command they can strip off my lands which I really dont like. Also keep in mind that these lands are a pain due to the fact that you can run out of basic lands in this list considering how many search outlets there are. Those 8 fetchlands plus all of the other effects that go out to search up basics really run through the basics quickly. I think the big thing in my mind though is that there is just so little support for the artifact lands. Trinket Mage and Tezzeret can go get them but Trinket Mage doesnt even put it into play so its sort of a meh. The potential downsides just feel bigger to me on these.
As for Relic of Progenitus, to be honest I love the card but this deck does so much graveyard abuse that it actually surprises me. I found that blowing out my own graveyard isn't very fun and the options that trinket mage can fetch for graveyard hate that doesn't hit me is down to effects like Tormod's Crypt. The Crypt is just fine don't get me wrong but there were several games where I would just draw the crypt off the top of my library in a game where opponents weren't abusing graveyards and it felt like I skipped my draw phase. The crypt isnt the worst thing in the world but I changed to running both Scavenging Ooze and Primal Command due to the fact that they are both decent cards even if nobody is abusing their graveyards. I think there are a lot of ways to go here but my own deck likes too many cards that interact with my own graveyard for Progenitus in my opinion. Here is a quick list of what it hurts:
That might not appear to be a lot offhand but I end up tutoring for a lot of those cards quite often in this deck. I think Relic is still a solid option though if you dont mind occasionally picking off some of your own utility when you do it.
3) Tezzeret is another one of my toolbox approaches. I am only running 3 wrath type effects in this deck so it could easily turn into an Oblivion Stone which I can recurr through means of Sun Titan or Academy Ruins. If it is early in the game there is a good chance I might go get a Darksteel Plate or my Sensei's Divining Top assuming there is a low chance of him taking damage. Skullclamp can be a great target if I need quick card draw or Sword of Light and Shadow if I have some big guys I want to recur. I dont think there is really any one thing that I always tutor up. I have a decent set of utility artifacts in here and I go get them depending upon the situation.
The big thing in my mind going for Tezzeret is that he only costs 5 mana and he can tutor artifacts INTO PLAY that cost up to 4 mana to play the turn he comes in. This means that if you want a 4cc artifact you only payed 1 mana to tutor it up. I think this is a huge benefit. If I were to use Fabricate instead I would pay 3 to tutor it and then I would have to play it whereas I could go get Birthing Pod and only have it cost me 1 extra mana to have gone and goten it. Planeswalkers dont live long in EDH so dont think that you can just drop Jace TMS into play and have him live forever because it isnt going to happen. I like the suicide planeswalkers a bit more. And who knows if nobody is coming after your Tezzeret you can always use his untap to prolong him a bit longer.
4) I actually have 4 equipment and there are different times that I will use each of them. I ahve:
Skullclamp such a good card draw outlet. This deck has tons of utility creatures and creatures that just probably should die after coming into play. I have tutored this up with Trinket Mage and or Stoneforge Mystic just to strap it to them and deter people from swinging at me as they don't like giving away cards. I love dropping a Wood Elves into play and strapping a clamp to it to lolz draw.
Darksteel Plate my meta used to be really really wrath happy and there are decks yet that have too many wraths. What I really really love about this is just that you can really solidify one of your threats. I used to run Lightning Greaves instead but I found the Plate was actually better at pure defense especially if people are wrathing too much. Greaves can be better though it sort of depends on your meta. One of my favorite moves was I once strapped this onto a Sun Titan who kept recurring my Oblivion Stone lol.
Sword of Fire and Ice this gives me some elements of control that it can be hard to have in an agro deck. The card draw is fantastic as well. The +2/+2 on it allows me to make a threat out of a utility creature too. I do have to admit though that pro red and pro blue are sort of lackluster but card draw and control is really nice to have on this.
Sword of Light and Shadow ohhhhh man pro white pro black is soooooo goood on its own. I once had this akroma recursion loop going where I started with Akroma, Angel of Wrath in play. My opponent wrathed her to get rid of her. I then dropped Body Double copying Akroma. Then I dropped this sword and strapped it to my new akroma to swing in and rez the real akroma. Someone stole the body double akroma with a chromeshell crab. I then dropped the real akroma into play to kill them both and strapped the sword to the crab who swung in and rezed akroma lol. There are just times where this card really breaks your opponents. If your opponents dont have a ton of grave hate this sword can really break them. Probably my favorite of the equipment.
The bottom line is that the swords are not absolutely necessary. If you dont have the swords though I probably wouldn't run the Stoneforge Mystic. You probably want at least 4 options before you consider running Stoneforge. They add a lot of $$$$ to the deck but I feel strongly that they are worthy of inclusion. When I drop a Stoneforge Mystic I don't always go for a sword but when I do it is usually Light and Shadow. I might go for fire and Ice but it is more likely if there is something that is an x/2 or less that really really needs to die. The swords are actually a bit of a new addition in the fact that they weren't in my list until maybe 2-3 months back.
EDIT: feel free to ask any other questions you have. If you have problems with the $$$$ getting into this deck I could always suggest some substitutions and or alternative options to help you out.
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[Modern] Allies
I finally read through the entire thread, so now I have some context as to where you're coming from and what you've tested thus far.
I played a few games with the deck on MWS last night, and it's very obvious that the amount of effort you put into the deck is paying off. I noticed as well that the deck doesn't necessarily rely on bouncing its own stuff and repeatedly play things again, which is a good thing. It always had "new" things to do. Here are a ton of thoughts:
1. Rings of Brighthearth -- I know they're your pet card, but they feel like they're just "win more". In the games that I drew them, I wanted them to be something else. I'm going to try Wild Pair instead, as Wild Pair lets me tutor up more toolbox guys. This gives me a reason to push to run Academy Rector, which I saw you felt you didn't have enough targets for. I'm going to toy around with it for a while, even if it may not work out.
2. I saw you were debating about Acidic Slime over other removal guys. Slime is amazing, and you always want it over Indrik Stomphowler or Wickerborough Elder. It's even MORE amazing with Birthing Pod. And perfect for Reveillark. I want to draw Acidic Slime pretty much every game.
3. Birthing Pod - This is one of the best cards in the deck, and more importantly, it's "fun", which is what EDH is all about. This makes the lowly Wood Elves and Farhaven Elves absolutely amazing. There were several games where I was mana screwed, and I sacced out the elves to find a Solemn Simulacrum or Oracle of Mul Daya. Birthing Pod has amazing synergy with this deck, it's just so obvious. Even more so with Skullclamp.
4. Cards I was impressed with:
Cauldron of Souls - wow
Pact of Negation
Consecrated Sphinx
Wood Elves
Farhaven Elf
Phyrexian Metamorph
5. Jace, TMS - You're saying he doesn't live long enough, but man, this card has such synergy with the deck. I can relent and not play Elspeth, (I didn't miss her at all in the games I played), but bouncing with Jace seems like it could be really strong. Something I'll test.
6. Gilded Drake - I actually still think this card is really good. Treachery isn't so great anymore, but I do still think this guy is worth having in you're in a pinch.
Some concerns:
7. Greater Good - There was never a time I wanted to cast this. Moreover, I'm considering playing with Rafiq as the general instead of Jenara. With Rafig as the general, Greater Good actually feels like it has more value, given the Exalted and Double Strike bonuses.
8. Didn't get to see Elesh Norn or Avenger of Zendikar in action. Elesh Norn doesn't excite me that much, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try her.
9. Not a fan of the Darksteel Plate either. Who do we really want to protect? There are better choices than this I think. Maybe Nim Deathmantle? Maybe something else?
Some cards I came up with to put in, just from doing a lot of digging, and would be interested to hear your thoughts:
Spitting Image (amazing with late land topdecks, and fun)
Empyrial Archangel (tooth and nail)
Venser, Shaper Savant (curious why he isn't mentioned at all in this thread)
Rout (instant speed, I guess this deck doesn't leave mana untapped often)
Desertion (Bribery might be better, both might suck given the new land)
Tunnel Vision (for a kill with hinder/oblation/spell crumple)
Vitu-Ghazi (tokens for equipment)
Cloudstone Curio (since you're running Tezz)
Mistmeadow Witch (too situational? lousy topdeck?)
Expensive Eldrazi (but they have no synergy with the Birthing Pod)
Decree of Silence (seems very strong, an Academy Rector target)
Stormtide Leviathan (instead of Elesh Norn)
High Market (this card is just really strong)
Phew, long post.
P.S. - You are very right about Yavimaya Elder. I love the card, but he's just to clunky. The 3 mana elf ramp guys are just better.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Good post... I have a feeling that my response will be at least equally long to it.
To start things off I figure I will cover the Rafiq vs Jenara question. I personally feel that Jenara is a lot more threatening on her own. Rafiq sort of requires being set up with several other cards to give him evasion and power him up. The downside to this is that if someone drops something like an Oblivion Stone rafiq is a lot harder to kickstart again. Jenara powers herself up and even if you run out of things to do dropping her in is always a good plan. Her evasion is powerful and she scales a bit better into the end game assuming you plan on seeing things like O Stone and Austere Command throughout the game.
On the other hand though Rafiq does have a higher output potential. He can hit a lot harder and he can do it quicker. He does however require some measure of assistance to connect as otherwise chump blockers and token swarms will just chump him off all day. I think both commanders are great choices. I personally prefer Jenara as I can see a lot of non-creature hate and depending on the matchup a lot of wrath effects. I would say you might want to try them both out and see what you personally like. I think the decks need to run quite a bit differently though so to give Rafiq a good chance you might want to look up one of his lists as substituting rafiq right into the commander slot with the same decklist might not be so impressive.
As for your notice that bouncing things isnt really required for this list I have to totally agree. The card draw options out there are crazy. I end up having to discard all too often as I am drawing new threats too quickly so I dont bother with bouncing as it slows me down too much. I used to try things like Equilibrium but I have long since axed them.
1) Rings of Brighthearth I have to agree that this card might be getting close to being axed. I used to have more interactions with it but currently the primary interaction is to use fetchlands to ramp. That is clearly not enough interaction but there are other fun things to do with it such as Birthing Pod, Survival of the Fittest, and Mimic Vat but beyond those I am starting to run low on reasons to keep it in the list. I had actually been examining it earlier today as to whether it should stay or not. I cant say quite yet how I feel on the matter.
Good luck with the Wild Pair, let me know how it works out for you.
2) If I ever had any sort of questions as to if Acidic Slime is good enough there is no way I would ever axe it. I had been looking for additional cards to supplement it as I think it is a great card but it is currently like my only creature that I like that hates on noncreatures. I am a bit on the fence about how I feel about the Primus currently as it is feeling slow and clunky. Still... Acidic Slime isn't going anywhere.
3) Yes I do have to agree that Birthing Pod is absolutely crazy good. I went back and forth on it early after it was released but I dont think it is going anywhere. I have goten way too much card advantage out of it for it to go out again. I had to adjust some of my list to make the chains a bit better but I think that Solemn Simulacrum is ultimately a good addition to the deck. Without the pod though I wasnt a big fan of him but he has been working out just fine.
4) overview of cards you mentioned:
Cauldron of Souls it is really good but I am seeing less wrath happy opponents. I sort of wonder if I should continue to use it but then again it is crazy good. I love how I can just pay 2 mana for Jenara to loose her -/- counter and regain the ability to persist again. It has a good potential to really blow out those wraths. It has been a good card for me over my time playing Jenara. It just feels a bit slow for how it doesn't actually directly do much.
Pact of Negation I tap out sooooo much in this list that it really helps me have that ace in my pocket for that oh **** moment.
Consecrated Sphinx I try to keep the curve down so that I can play a lot off of this guy. I think it is just an amazing creature anywhere so it is hard to say it is much better in this list vs another though.
Wood Elves / Farhaven Elf these guys have really panned out well for me. The fact that I can rez them or pod them off has really improved their use for me. I love clamping them for cards. I cant even immagine running Cultivate in their place.
Phyrexian Metamorph I didnt have a clone effect in my deck for some time but omg I cant even immagine not having this guy. He is really nice as he can rez off of Lark as well which I have done on occasion to hate on opposing commanders more.
5) I could understand trying out Jace. I dont actually own one so I will need to trade into one but his bounce does sound like fun. I just worry about how difficult he can be to protect in a multiplayer game. I will try to make a point to proxy him up at some point though. As for Elspeth, my biggest problem there was that I would go on defense to try to protect her but every time I would get blown out by some sort of Woodfall Primus effect. Never once did I hit her ultimate. I think she is probably solid depending on how well you can protect her. As I run low counterspells I found it too hard to make her useful. Her spawning 1/1s is sort of moot so she got cut.
6) I have gone both ways on the inclusion of Gilded Drake. When it comes down to it he is a creature who is easily tutored for if need be that can be flickered with venser or rezed with Sun Titan. There are lots of uses for it and it freaks people out to know that I have it in hand. I dont think I could really bring myself to run Treachery but if someone pops homeward I still get a 3/3 flyer back. It has been a decent piece of utility that has goten through a lot of hard times. He also sort of paired with Bribery got people in my meta to stop running Blightsteel Colosus.
7) Greater Good you might have a point. I have been running this card since the creation of the deck. I used to have a lot more larger creatures to the deck and less card draw / card advantage options available. I might take a look at cutting this out. I hadn't really thought about it though. I might take a look at it over the span of a few games. I do like the card though as it is a good card draw outlet but usually I have problems using all of the cards I draw. I cant say for sure yet but I will look into it.
8) Ok I will do 2 quick seperate rundowns on both creatures:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite ok the big thing here isnt her buff but her -2/-2 to opposing creatures. She is best when facing token strategies or swarm decks. If you see more control and or combo decks in your meta she isnt as good. I dont think she is neccesary by any means but she gives me some control in creature form that is easier to tutor up / recur. I have had her in and out depending on what I am facing regularly. Of late I have 2 token swarm decks between Rhys the Redeemed and Hazezon Tamar. I also used her a few times when opposing slivers to shut down his horde of creatures quite effectively. The buff to your own creatures is nice but I wouldnt run it exclusively for that. If you dont see many of these types of decks I would absolutely cut her out. I didnt use her for most of the time she has been legal and only recently included her back in to face these strategies. She is really solid to pull out of a birthing pod though for a big strike with utility guys. Don't underestimate it its sort of like having an overrun and a mini wrath all in one card.
Avenger of Zendikar There are honestly a lot of times where this isnt that impressive to drop. Also when you drop him you will often be responded to by a wrath effect. If you are facing token swarms though it is really solid to have. Most of the time I utilize him in a Tooth and Nail to get him + Glen Elendra Archmage to have a good wrath proof army. There are other times where he is really solid as well though such as someone else is getting carried away and you want to push a wrath or if you run low on cards in hand you can skullclamp the tokens before dropping a land to draw tons of cards and still have chump blockers. He is also a champ if you have Cauldron of Souls in play as he will spawn a whole new wave of tokens when he comes back. He isnt perfect for every situation but he is very powerful.
9) I always find there is something worth protecting with Darksteel Plate. I like putting it on any of the following:
Akroma, Angel of Wrath akroma is already scary as is and she is usually responded to by wrathing her off. An indestructable Akroma is really scarry though.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite token strategies throw a fit when they cant kill your Elesh Norn. She completely holds a lot of decks at bay and if you harden her up she is really mean.
Primeval Titan this guy is rediculously hard to stick to the board. Everyone wants to kill, copy, and steal him so if you can strap a plate to him you can at least try to force them to exile him to get rid of him.
Sun Titan strap a plate to him and just keep wrathing with Oblivion Stone and rezing it. Fun strategy that I have used a few times. If you are against a wrath happy opponent this can let you recover all by himself as he keeps rezing utility guys back for you.
Consecrated Sphinx who doesnt try to stop the lolz card draw. I have really screwed some opponents over by making this bugger indestructible.
Jenara, Asura of War makes it so that putting counters on her is even more solid. Sometimes I dont like leveling her up because it just attracts the removal but when she is harder to kill I feel a bit safer doing it.
Beyond those you can strap a plate to anything to just use it as a dummy blocker. Nobody really wants to swing at you if the response is just bounce off a brick wall. Again though if you dont see much removal this isnt a requirement. It is something that I brought in when I was forced to deal with too many wrath effects.
As to why I dont run Nim Deathmantle, that is primarily due to the fact that it requires a lot of mana to use. If I were to change the deck to be more of a control deck I think it would be the perfect addition. However I see more turns where I am tapped out than not. I have a lot of card drawing / advantage and I tend to try to use cards so I dont have to discard. It is mainly my own preference however I think it could be a good card especially if you wanted to turn Jenara into more of a control deck with more counterspells.
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I will run through the random cards you mentioned and why I decided against them:
Spitting Image We have at least 3 dedicated graveyard abuse decks in our meta and graveyard hate is already really high. This spell costs a lot to cast and I can never have too many lands. If I have extra lands that means that I can keep mana open to use control spells, level up Jenara, or just play more spells in a turn. I have such good card draw / card advantage that it is very scarce for my hand to not be mostly full or overfull. I also dont like how this spell targets which the normal clone varients do not. This means that I cant hit commanders behind boots or hit Uril, the Miststalker at all who used to be a big problem for me. I try to balance how much graveyard abuse I have as it can really bring in a whole new set of issues. Also trying to pay 6 mana to cast this thing all the time is a total bear. It isnt a terrible card but due to its limitations I dont care too much for it. I can never have enough land in play either as I always have more to do.
Empyrial Archangel I am a huge spike player who always wants immediate results from everything I play. I think the archangel is sort of cool but it doesnt do anything right away which I dont like. Also I am comming from a meta where I used to sit down with 3 opposing decks all running 8-10 wrath effects. She isnt gona live long in that sort of environment. If you see a lot less wrathing I could see her being good however keep in mind that she costs a lot of mana. I am a lot more for Akroma, Angel of Wrath due to her having all of her amazing abilities and she is really good on defense as well due to her vigilance.
Venser, Shaper Savant I dont run him in here because he is too control oriented. If I wanted to change how my deck ran and turned it more responsive / controlling I would say he is perfect then. However I tap out way too often and I havent found bounce to be that effective for what I am doing. Therefore while I think he is really cool I am tapped down too often for him to be amazing.
Rout great wrath and probably the next one that I would add to the list. I just only have so many openings and I have found 3 wrath effects to be arround where I want it. I could see this going in next though for sure if you feel you want a 4th.
Desertion I ran it for a while and just found that I tap out too often to try to keep 5 mana up. I think it is great and in a more reactive control version I think it would be amazing. But yes I did run it for a bit and found I had too little mana open too often to run it when I needed it. I like the 3 or less mana options of control for my current list as it is a lot easier to keep up.
Tunnel Vision We used to see a lot more eldrazi so this sort of turned to crap but I could see potentially using it now. I just hadnt really thought much of it. The downside here is that tunnel vision is a lot worse if you dont have a tuck spell than it would be to set up a lark combo as like all the cards in a lark combo are good for the deck.
Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree honestly I dont have a whole lot of use for a 1/1 token. I hate lands that tap for colorless as they slow down my start. I really like hitting Jenara on turn 3 as it really makes opponents choose between answering her and disrupting their own start or just taking some early damage. I dont even level her up I just swing for 3 a turn for a few turns and it usually pans out really well. Due to this I dont run more colorless lands than I feel are really necessary. I would be prone to adding Homeward Path, Reliquary Tower, and perhaps Mistifying Maze all before I would consider Vitu-Ghazi
Cloudstone Curio bounce just hasnt been that impressive. I like Equilibrium more than I do the Curio due to the fact that I can bounce opposing creatures but even then I usually have plenty of things to do without bouncing creatures anyways. It isnt terrible though but I might even consider running Crystal Shard before the curio. Even then I dont run any of these effects anymore.
Mistmeadow Witch this comes back to me being tapped out too often. I think it is a great card but unfortunately it requires another good card to make it good and mana open to flicker in response to things. It just totals up to be too much of a control card for my build.
Expensive Eldrazi Starting out I had a lot more graveyard tactics in this deck. More recently though I dont bother with them as they tend to be somewhat easily removed as everyone freaks out about them and they really destroy the average cc as they are super slow to cast. I tried Ulamog again a few months back and just didnt like him in the deck at all.
Decree of Silence I think this card is a lot better in heads up. It seems to me like everyone just throws some crappy cards at it and it is dead by the time the turn rolls back to me. Again I sort of wonder if this might be better in a control oriented version of the deck. I suppose it could be decent in an agro but still its multiplayer and it would just burn through its counters quickly. Also it is sort of spendy to cast out for how random its results seems like it would be.
Stormtide Leviathan someone else played one of these the other day and it was actually really good for me. It might be worth considering as it really does hurt a lot of other decks. I havent actually played it myself though so I cant say.
High Market again it sort of comes down to the whole colorless land. I think it is a great land though and I have used it for lots of good uses in the past.
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And regarding Equilibrium... I absolutely LOVE this card. I play with it in cube drafts, but in EDH, I have to assume it's too weak and probably makes you the "bad guy".
Reading the rest of your post now.
EDIT - Re: Acidic Slime -- You can play Viridian Shaman or Uktabi Orangutan if you want another 2/2 guy that kills stuff. The 3 mana creatures work so well with Birthing Pod.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
2. Phyrexian Metamorph is also an Academy Ruins target. As is Solemn Simulacrum. The the latter is amazing with Cauldron of Souls. In fact, just thinking about Cauldron excites me more and more to be honest.
3. Re: Jace, TMS. Just proxy it, and then if you decide he's worth it, start getting some trades together. Not "owning" a card is not a good reason to exclude it from your decklist. Unless you play sanctioned EDH, you can even go to kinkos and print out some proxies and superglue them onto commons. I have a couple cards like that in my cube and at the end of the day, it's more fun to have Imperial Recruiter than not.
4. You've convinced me that Elspeth isn't really worth it. And no real synergy with the deck.
5. The Gilded Drake is still worth running for the reasons you mentioned, and there are times when his ability sticks.
6. I could be convinced to keep Greater Good, but at a quick first glance it didn't seem necessary. It didn't feel like the deck was short on cards in most cases anyway. Personally, I'd like to at least start with an Academy Rector package with Wild Pair and possibly another enchantment or two. We could brainstorm to figure out what else might belong in this deck. Can you give me some more detail on your experience with Academy Rector? Do you feel strongly against running it? I'm not 100% on Wild Pair either, but it just seems like a fun thing to try given all of the 2/2 guys. That reminds me.
7. That reminds me... Rhystic Study seems very suspect to me. I saw you defend it in a couple of arguments but I just feel like there could be better options. Especially since we're blue. I'm going to look into this.
8. As an off note... I don't see this deck as being that aggressive, yet you allude to its aggressiveness in a lot of your posts, including your previous post. I see it as very mid-range with a lot of controlish elements. Which is exactly why I like it.
9. Ill give the Darksteel Plate another look.
10. Regarding your responses to my card suggestions, I agree with your reasoning for all of them, given what this deck wants to do.
11. I'd like to get Vendilion Clique in here somewhere. Any reason he isn't?
I suppose right now the biggest suspects in the deck for me are:
Darksteel Plate
Rings of Brighthearth <-- win more, clunky
Stoneforge Mystic package <-- win more
Rhystic Study <-- will hear your explanation
Greater Good <-- there are better things to do, i think?
Fierce Empath <-- I think it's probably fine
Brutalizer Exarch <-- I think it's probably fine
Honestly, 7-9 cards (if you count the two swords) out of 100 is pretty good. And overall I think you've done a very exellent job with both the deck and this forum thread.
Points #6 and #7 I think require a bit more discussion, as well as the suspect cards, which we've gone over a little bit.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
1) Along your same point of Cauldron being amazing with Birthing Pod keep in mind that you can use Cauldron with Greater Good to draw some lolz cards. The upside there would be that you can keep it untapped until you know your opponents arent going to run you over. It isnt much but it is another option. And yes the Cauldron is really really good. But sometimes it draws some hate due to that.
2) good points that both point to how amazing all of those cards really are. The Academy Ruins has been very amazing in the few games I have gotten it running.
3) I will give him a shot. I had honestly considered Jace TMS as mainly a topdeck manipulation card but I suppose he has a lot of solidly good abilities that I should really give him a shot myself. Proxies are no problem for me so I will proxy him up and try to squeeze him in somewhere.
4) I agree she really lacks synergy with the deck and there isnt much that her vanilla tokens do for us. If you cant consistently ultimate her she is doing very little. Also it gets us to go really defensive for several turns which can really bite us in the ass if someone combos out because we tried defending a planeswalker.
5) I agree that his random utility is occasionaly gamebreaking. The fact that it is on a creature as well is really powerful as it gives us a means to tutor it up. Unlike Sower of Temptation there is no incentive to kill our stuff and he is easier to flicker and abuse. Dont forget you can always Oblation the drake after you trade to draw 2 cards and remove their threat lol.
6) Honestly I think I might end up cutting Greater Good. There is a lot of smaller utility in this deck and honestly the deck isnt hurting for card draw. I think this is just an example of a card that has outlived its use and I hadnt really noticed it due to having always had it in the list. I dont think it is a terrible card for the list but I also sort of feel like it could easily be something else. It is a really solid card but it isnt the best of my card draw by any means.
7) Honestly I wouldn't consider Rhystic Study as card draw as much as temp swing. It slows down my opponents and makes it increasingly difficult to do multiple things in a turn. On occasion it will draw a ton of cards as well. Dropping it off a turn 2 Sol Ring really breaks opponents opening ramp and either slows them down or draws us tons of cards. It is sort of a dual purpose. I will admit that it isn't the most impressive card later in the game but it draws soooo little hate because people would rather play around it than to answer it. I would be more for cutting Greater Good currently than I would Rhystic Study.
8) You are right. While I take sort of a midrange approach I am not strictly an agro deck. I have a lot of toolboxing to this list and I do have a lot of answers. However considering I have only 3 counters and 3 wraths I have a hard time calling it a control deck. But you are right it really isnt a dedicated agro deck anymore. At one point I had probably half of the answers that I currently do and a lot more creature support. I have changed the deck up a bit since then and it is a much better rounded deck that isnt as prone to be vulnerable to any one tactic. There are enough creatures in here that I make it hard to swing at me. If someone does have something bigger than I then I usually just zap it with a spot removal. It really isnt a pure agro deck anymore. Hummm not really sure what I would call it offhand though.
9) If you have problems with spot removal especially stuff that exiles like Swords to Plowshares you might move this to be a Lightning Greaves. This spot could probably be one of a number of options. I just found that the plate served my needs the best of them.
11) Not really any particular reason as to why I don't run Vendilion Clique in here. It has made an appearance or two in the past but my biggest problem is that unless there is a specific combo deck or someone tutors for something later in the game I have always had some problems picking my target for it in multiplayer. I could really see it being really solid if you picked up more bounce / flickering as you could hit people repeatedly with it then. I guess I just have yet to have a really solid play with it. I think it would be really fun with more bounce so you could tuck commanders while in hands and what not. I guess I just haven't had enough exposure to it and had it work out for me all that well in multiplayer. I wouldn't mind hearing how you would use it though as I just couldn't make it feel like it was worth the spot.
As for some of the cards you pointed out:
Stoneforge Mystic assuming that drawing an equipment is good enough for this deck this guy replaces himself in hand in a toolbox approach. I have used him plenty in standard and he is a complete house. The only way I would personally cut him is if I cut back on my equipment package. I also like how he can cheat the equipment in at end of turn. This does open up some options to fake answers or use answers instead of playing the equipment if need be. If you keep the equipment in I would suggest giving him a bit longer. I dont see drawing him as a downside. Also it means that I can turn my creature tutors into an equipment tutor which is handy to have.
Rings of Brighthearth I am starting to agree with you here. I just dont have enough cards that it intereacts with to keep it anymore. I think it will be the next card out.
Greater Good I also feel like I have too few big creatures to utilize here. I think it is a good card but my decklist has changed quite a bit and I am good on my card draw currently.
Fierce Empath I actually really like this guy as I get a body to abuse with the equipment, birthing pod, recursion tactics, persist with the cauldron. I just feel like he has 101 uses and he is another toolbox. If I have a skullclamp or birthing pod in play I can drop him tutoring a Sun Titan to hand then clamp / pod him off to the next thing and abuse it again with the Sun Titan. I would say play with him a bit more before judging. I used to not like this guy but now he is my favorite card for toolboxing thos big guys out.
Brutalizer Exarch honestly I go back and forth with this guy. I am not completely sold on him but at the same time there are games where he just completely breaks the game for me by tucking an indestructable target like Darksteel Forge or Darksteel Plate which can be totally a pain in the ass otherwise. On the other hand there are times where I wish I could just kill something and he lets someone tutor it back up and I get pissed off. I am not completely sold one way or another as of yet though.
It will take me a bit of time to figure out what replacements might be coming in for the Rings / Greater Good. I will update when I figure it out though.
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I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Yes Mystic Snake is among the top of the counters that I am currently not using. I would also consider Voidslime as a very solid counter as occasionally I really want to counter an ability. However currently the ability to tuck spells is more effective than getting a body or hitting an ability. The snake is fun off of a Mimic Vat though thats for sure.
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Greater Good -- OUT
Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- IN
Rings of Brighthearth -- OUT
Which leaves you with a couple options to try. Maybe another equipment to get some more value out of the Stoneforge? Maybe Vendilion Clique? Maybe another cheap enchantment? This is the digging I was alluding to in one of my earlier posts.
Don't forget, Vitu-Ghazi, while colorless, gives you something to do with your equipment, especially the skullclamp.
You've convinced me to keep everything else in, other than the Rhystic Study.
So to sum it all up, I think the three main suspects to me now are:
Rhystic Study
Greater Good
Rings of Brighthearth
In these three *amazing* colors, there MUST be some really sweet upgrades.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Another option would be to add Mirror Entity which would re-enable my lark combo if I so chose to. I stripped the Entity a while back because I felt sort of bad doing it.
I am not entirely sure what other equipment I would run. I ran Umezawa's Jitte for a bit but I found it a bit underwhelming in comparison to the others. Sword of Feast and Famine would give me a nice untap effect which would allow me to level up Jenara and keep more control open beyond my own turn... Hummm I will have to think on it a bit.
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I'd like to see maybe another artifact or enchant, equipment for the stoneforge maybe?
Also, it's still good to keep the creature count high, and play "secret" card advantage. "Secret" meaning a card like Wood Elves.
I have a whole long list of more options, but a lot of them I just don't like.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Hummm sounds good for now I will make it Jace TMS and Mirror Entity as the replacements.
Its not as if I havent mauled someone to death before with 4 1/1 utility guys that Mirror Entity juiced to be 13/13s lol
I will keep looking to see if there is anything else better I can come up with either.
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I feel like there have to be some enchantments that are being completely overlooked. Twilight Shepherd makes you kind of wrath-proof, but the card doesn't excite me. Just a specific one to point out since you mentioned wraths a few times.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
I will run through the ones you mentioned so far with my thoughts.
Sylvan Tutor Sadly Worldly Tutor just sinks this card. I have on occasion considered adding Worldly Tutor in the past though. It is a solid card I just dont know if I need a creature tutor that is net card loss... It is an option to say the least though.
Green Sun's Zenith I love me some green sun. Sadly I feel like there are more nongreen creatures that I would want to go get than there are green creatures.
Garruk Wildspeaker I have always had a problem with him in EDH. Planeswalkers just draw a ton of hate and I dont feel like his effect is powerful enough based on the hate that planeswalkers just naturally draw to themselves.
Twilight Shepherd Honestly I dont know how I feel about her entirely. She isn't that impressive of a creature on her own however I can do things like birthing pod into her or pop an oblivion stone with her in play to regain it all. I might have to look into her closer. I have also thought a bit about Ghostway. Maybe I will have to make a point to try out the shepard at some point. I do like creatures that persist as they make for some solid threats.
Keiga, the Tide Star theft is sort of a hard deal these days with Homeward Path. Also Keiga isnt very useful if someone just wraths because there are no targets left to hit. I liked Keiga more in my Teferi list where I would just surprise people with it.
Miraculous Recovery A good card for sure. I have also considered Marshal's Anthem for similar rez. I would probably be more prone to running the anthem to be honest due to the ability to rez multiple creatures. Still I might even run Regrowth over both of them due to its ability to return anything I need. I have been trying to stay away from leaning too heavily on my graveyard of late though due to the amount of grave hate I have been seeing though. All of them are good options though.
Vesuvan Shapeshifter I dont care to run too many clone varients in here. I dont see much utility that they give me that I dont already have as is. I already have the Metamorph and body double. Beyond that I shouldnt need much more clone effects.
Wall of Blossoms / Wall of Omens / Elvish Visionary out of the three of them I would probably be most likely to run the Elvish Visionary. I like how I could equip it up and swing in. Generally speaking I am not too afraid of any creature that is smaller than 4 power as I could probably just take the hitpoints so the things that the walls could block that the visionary cant survive are fairly small on my worries. I have considered running the Visionary though as it is a good creature. It really is just another Coiling Oracle
Flickerwisp it is alright but it requires a second card to be usable at all. I would rather use Momentary Blink which I have considered a few times. If Flickerwisp had flash I would probably use it then. Sorcery speed though and requires a second card to use makes me sort of meh it though.
Kitchen Finks I know a lot of rafiq decks like to run these guys. They aren't terrible but a bit of lifegain isn't that important to me. Also I just stripped out my Greater Good which they tend to be utilized with.
Dauntless Escort I dont really like how he isnt that great of a creature on his own. He requires you to play out several other good threats and hopefully he will be good then. Even then though if someone uses Hallowed Burial, Final Judgment, Mutilate, Black Sun's Zenith, Death Cloud, Evacuation he isnt that great. The other option is just to spot kill him at end of turn before you wrath so I feel like there are just too many ways to get around it.
Qasali Pridemage ran him for a bit but I didnt like how he sacrificed to do his ability. I changed to Brutalizer Exarch due to the fact that he is a bit better when abused, recurred, flickered, persisted.
Mirari's Wake these effects just dont stick in my meta. Also it screwed with my lark combo because the Mirror Entity activation would make my guys 1/1s instead of 0/0s and thus not kill them. Its a good card it just draws more hate than it is worth in my meta.
Knight-Captain of Eos I didnt feel it was agressive enough. I dont care much for token spawning and this feels really small scale. I think I would run Spike Weaver instead if I were going to run something on this scale. If I did more flickering / rezing I could see the token spawning being sort of fun here. He feels a bit overcosted though especially for feeling like a bad Spike Weaver.
Spike Weaver good creature but I just hate relying on him to protect me and hope to god nobody has an answer for him. I go back and forth. He is nice as he can rez off of Lark but again I would hate to rely on him fogging for me just to go woops I guess I take it.
Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant My creatures already win in combat usually. This deck out agros most of my opposition and red burn has never really been a problem.
Darksteel Ingot I have actually considered this once or twice due to some of the mass LD that is floating about but still I dont know entirely. I dont need it as ramp or fix as I have those covered now. Beyond the occasional Catastrophe I dont care much for mana stones.
Batterskull I ran it for a bit and the problem was that I had a hard time keeping mana up to protect it. I suppose I could run it with just the assumption that if it dies it dies but I felt like a lot of turns were eaten up trying to protect this thing. It is a bit slow but it is good if you really get to abuse it.
Azorious Guildmage very mana intensive. I like it otherwise though.
Sakashima the Impostor I try not to run too many clone effects because they are generally very responsive. I try to take a proactive approach with this deck and creatures that have to sit in hand until a good threat comes along sort of annoy me. On top of that cloneing a good target doesnt even really answer it as you still have the original to deal with.
Sanctum Gargoyle he isnt bad but I sort of wonder if just a Regrowth would be better due to the ability to hit anything. Still it is sort of like white's Eternal Witness.
Cryptic Command Originally I stayed away from it due to the high blue cost. I could probably swing it with my manabase today but it could still be tricky in the early game. I do like the options it has but again I would have to give up a spot somewhere or move my deck to be a bit more responsive with more counters. I dont think I like it more than my current counters.
Stonecloaker it is some good grave hate and nifty bounce. I cut him a ways back due to having issues keeping mana up on my opponents turns. While I am not completely an agro deck I tend to tap out a lot and I would need to go to more of a Draw, go style deck to run more of these flash cards and instants. Also there is the problem that I tend to always have more things to play. The last thing I need to do is spend time and mana recasting things I already played.
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EDIT: To be honest though I cant say how much this deck really needs additional creatures. I feel like the number of utility creatures and the number of finishers is just about where I like it currently. I might be able to see another answer or two especially to throw some kinks into the combo machine. I had considered Return to Dust or perhaps Dismantling Blow but they both feel sort of mana heavy.
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My original list from a while back had Dismantling Blow. It's a good card, but it's just "boring".
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.