I really don't think Jace is any good here... if you think Mirari's Wake draws too much hate, wait until you play the Jacemeister. And he's not even that good to begin with.
I recall you added Wall of Blossoms to your Sek'kuar deck. I'm wondering if that might be a good addition as well as maybe Wall of Omens. They serve to filter into useful cards effectively and are amazing recursion targets in this deck. Their strong defense is just gravy.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I really don't think Jace is any good here... if you think Mirari's Wake draws too much hate, wait until you play the Jacemeister. And he's not even that good to begin with.
I recall you added Wall of Blossoms to your Sek'kuar deck. I'm wondering if that might be a good addition as well as maybe Wall of Omens. They serve to filter into useful cards effectively and are amazing recursion targets in this deck. Their strong defense is just gravy.
I agree that jace is going to draw some lolz hate. I am not sold on him I simply havent ever tried him in EDH so I figure it is worth proxing up at least once. I have my doubts but I try not to say no to a card without ever testing it.
As for Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms. They have both been very powerful in my Sek'Kuar but my concern is that my Jenara list tends to be a lot more aggressive. Sek'Kuar takes a long time to get going and so it tends to be a lot more defensive in the early game. Also there is the whole fact that I can sacrifice them to spawn tokens later for Sek. I have considered them a few times but I think Elvish Visionary is more likely to make a spot due to the fact that it can swing with a sword, be skullclamped for cards, or be utilized with Mirror Entity or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as an attack force. I think the big difference between the lists is that Sek'Kuar needs early defense and things to sac whereas Jenara wants attackers with card advantage. I have seriously been considering the Elvish Visionary though as it is sort of like Coiling Oracle #2
Well there are a few other big fatty creatures you have mentioned that I wouldnt mind giving a shot at some point in time. The two that interested me were: Twilight Shepherd and Stormtide Leviathan. I think they could both be worthy of at least testing. Also Elvish Visionary could give an additional early game creature as there really isnt much that I am doing at the 2 mana mark plus it always replaces itself in hand which is really good. I have also been toying with Beast Within as I have had some issues with noncreature effects that an instant speed response would be good for.
I will give jace a shot first though before I judge though. I think there are plenty of other good options that could go in here.
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I was thinking about Beast Within as well. You know what I also like about this deck, is that Jace, the Mind Sculptor doesn't seem to threaten this deck that much.
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Twilight Shepherd has always been underwhelming to me no matter how many times I give it a chance. Beast Within has been nothing short of amazing though and I'm shocked it's not already on your list.
Twilight Shepherd has always been underwhelming to me no matter how many times I give it a chance. Beast Within has been nothing short of amazing though and I'm shocked it's not already on your list.
I went back and forth on it due to the amount of spot removal I have in the list already. I dont have a whole lot that can hit noncreatures at instant speed though and I do like the versatility of Beast Within. It was just that I didnt have anything in particular earlier that I could remove. I still sort of wonder if I am getting a bit much spot removal though. It can be a pain to have multiiple spot removal spells in hand in multiplayer. But I do like them.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
So, after playing even more games with this deck, I'm still really enjoying it. A couple things that I've noticed, while playing 1 vs 1 games:
1. When I win games, it's by by earning a very strong amount of control and toolbox options, and the opponent concedes. I don't think I've ever actually killed someone to zero life.
2. I still have not found any use for the Darksteel Plate. Maybe in multiplayer it's more useful? For your big guys?
3. Avenger of Zendikar doesn't seem like he's in the spirit of what the deck wants to do. Again, this is just in my experience in 1 vs 1. I'm wondering if there is another creature at this high casting cost that does more. Perhaps a wrath effect of some sort?
6. Wild Pair has been good and fun for me, but it's a tiny bit slow. When I do get it going, it has been winning me games. I'm currently running it over the Darksteel Plate.
7. I haven't yet had the chance to really see Akroma, Angel of Wrath in action, but in 1 vs 1, I don't really want to see her.
I'm hoping to get some multi-player games in at my local store this week, I've just been testing the list on MWS currently.
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So, after playing even more games with this deck, I'm still really enjoying it. A couple things that I've noticed, while playing 1 vs 1 games:
1. When I win games, it's by by earning a very strong amount of control and toolbox options, and the opponent concedes. I don't think I've ever actually killed someone to zero life.
2. I still have not found any use for the Darksteel Plate. Maybe in multiplayer it's more useful? For your big guys?
3. Avenger of Zendikar doesn't seem like he's in the spirit of what the deck wants to do. Again, this is just in my experience in 1 vs 1. I'm wondering if there is another creature at this high casting cost that does more. Perhaps a wrath effect of some sort?
6. Wild Pair has been good and fun for me, but it's a tiny bit slow. When I do get it going, it has been winning me games. I'm currently running it over the Darksteel Plate.
7. I haven't yet had the chance to really see Akroma, Angel of Wrath in action, but in 1 vs 1, I don't really want to see her.
I'm hoping to get some multi-player games in at my local store this week, I've just been testing the list on MWS currently.
As for Darksteel Plate, obviously in multiplayer there is a lot more wrath removal due to the fact that a lot less people run 1 for 1 spot removal. I run somewhat of a high spot removal count in here due to all of the card advantage I have in here plus the fact that not everything requires a wrath response. It is very useful to have the option to have a blocker that wont die to dissuade people from attacking you, or keep a creature through that wrath, or make it harder to kill your best threat. In heads up though you see more spot removal and they can obviously respond to the equip. I think it is a lot worse in a heads up game. If you arent finding it useful its not going to kill you to remove it from the list. I have just found it to be useful in several different ways in multiplayer.
I agree with you that Avenger of Zendikar feels a bit odd in this list. I use him in multiplayer to force a wrath, provide chumps for days, or randomly run people over if they are out of wrath effects. In multiplayer there is a lot less spot removal so he usually keeps pumping his guys. I dont think he is necessary and if you continuously are playing 1v1 rather than multiplayer you might consider changing the list up a bit. I do like the Avenger in a tooth and nail as he is a champ there.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath is a big fan of mine due to the vigilance she has plus the fact that she hits right away. She can do a lot of damage very quickly and personally she is one of my favorite creatures on the list. Part of why she is so good is due to the fact that multiplayer people dont want to swing at the board with blockers. She provides an attacker and a blocker at the same time and she can feel a bit underwhelming. I would say just try to bring her out sometime as she is really good and she is usually my go to beater of choice. Black decks really hate her as well as she just forces them to wrath.
I am glad you are enjoying the list. I would suggest you make some modifications to the list based on what you want to accomplish. Obviously my list isnt going to be best for everyone's meta. Also I didnt build this list specifically for 1v1 so you might need additional modifications for if that is what you want to focus on.
I've been testing this list with some of my own modifications and am loving it. The color combination is incredibly synergistic. Even more than I at first realized...
I also just realized that you don't at least include Mirari's Wake in the possible enchantments section. Is there a specific reason for this?
I've been testing this list with some of my own modifications and am loving it. The color combination is incredibly synergistic. Even more than I at first realized...
I also just realized that you don't at least include Mirari's Wake in the possible enchantments section. Is there a specific reason for this?
My reason for not including it was due to an over abundance amount of noncreature hate. These effects never seem to stick to the board for me. Generally speaking I find that I am fine with my land ramp but you can run it. Another thing to note though is that if you end up setting up a lark combo the wake will screw up Mirror Entity as the sac outlet. It is a decent card though if you can stick it. I used to run a lot of those sort of effects but literally I went through like 4 of them in one game and they were all answered before I untapped and so I got sick of that.
I should put it in the enchantments section regardless though. Thanks for pointing it out.
EDIT 2: Ohhh and I am glad you are enjoying Bant. It has been my absolute favorite color combination so far and it has a lot of powerful effects that can be very synergistic.
melira sylvok outcast + Woodfall Primus and a Sac outlet like Greater Good/ Phyrexian Altar, infinite card draw/mana as long as you have a way to shuffle your library. It's also pretty nice with Glen Elendra. I know it's one of those things that kind of takes the fun out of the game, which I honestly don't like but if you got it, use it right?
Also I'm a bit surprised by no Krosan Grip it's a combo killer for most decks. I honestly dislike Rhystic study, maybe it depends on the meta of a person's play area but hardly anyone plays that card anymore the cost always gets paid, and if they don't have enough to pay for it they wait a turn which in most cases doesn't seem to hurt them too bad.
Something to look into could be privileged position a great way to stop people from messing with your permanents; and it goes nicely with Sterling Grove
Urabrask the hidden good way to give all your creatures haste, and stop other heavy creature decks. Also if you like Akroma, which I understand you're looking for more creatures for the deck why not just play Akroma's Memorial make all your creatures Akroma.
Also nice props for a Capt. Sisay deck, had one myself.
For some reason I thought Jenara had Red in her Cast.
Urabrask the hidden good way to give all your creatures haste, and stop other heavy creature decks. Also if you like Akroma, which I understand you're looking for more creatures for the deck why not just play Akroma's Memorial make all your creatures Akroma.
melira sylvok outcast + Woodfall Primus and a Sac outlet like Greater Good/ Phyrexian Altar, infinite card draw/mana as long as you have a way to shuffle your library. It's also pretty nice with Glen Elendra. I know it's one of those things that kind of takes the fun out of the game, which I honestly don't like but if you got it, use it right?
Also I'm a bit surprised by no Krosan Grip it's a combo killer for most decks. I honestly dislike Rhystic study, maybe it depends on the meta of a person's play area but hardly anyone plays that card anymore the cost always gets paid, and if they don't have enough to pay for it they wait a turn which in most cases doesn't seem to hurt them too bad.
Something to look into could be privileged position a great way to stop people from messing with your permanents; and it goes nicely with Sterling Grove
Urabrask the hidden good way to give all your creatures haste, and stop other heavy creature decks. Also if you like Akroma, which I understand you're looking for more creatures for the deck why not just play Akroma's Memorial make all your creatures Akroma.
Also nice props for a Capt. Sisay deck, had one myself.
For some reason I thought Jenara had Red in her Cast.
Thanks for the reply I will go through things one at a time here.
Melira Sylvok Outcast + Persist creature + Sac Outlet: I have known about this for some time. I think it is a decent combo to be honest but my real problem with this combo is that it runs a lot of things that I dont actually really want in this list outside of the combo. If I were to draw Melira Sylvok Outcast on her own, she is a bad card with little effect. Also generally speaking I dont have much for sac outlets. If I were to run a card to tutor up a sac outlet such as Greater Good then I might as well have tutored into Survival and combod out from there. This combo requires 3 cards that need to be tutored up seperately and there is no real easy way to tutor them all up at once. I guess in my mind it is too difficult to tutor up and or assemble and it requires too many cards that aren't good cards on their own to run it. I just decided recently to cut Greater Good from the list and outside of the persist guys Melira Sylvok Outcast is sort of a bad card.
Krosan Grip good card but I dont see much combo in my area currently. Most of us are agro players so that is why. If I do see some combo I can usually respond to it by playing one of my instant speed combo breakers anyways. Oblation and Beast Within are usually better in my mind unless there is a chance that your opponent has the counterspell backup which very few in my area do. It is a good card though for if that is what you have to combat regularly. It just isn't what I currently have to deal with.
I dont run privileged position as it often just gets nocked out itself. We see a lot of Austere Command and Oblivion Stones in my meta so it sort of usually just turns into collateral damage in one of those. Plus trying to harden your board position usually just pisses people off to the point where you draw everyone's hate.
Sterling Grove considering how few enchantments I have I dont see the point. I ran Enlightened Tutor for a while but I decided it wasnt good enough. The Grove + privileged position sounds like fun but I think it would just piss people off to the point that I would be hated off quickly. Again there are too many sweeper effects that hit these things in my meta to run them. Generally speaking I think Enlightened Tutor is probably just a better card anyways.
Akroma's Memorial in the past I have tried this in a few decks. My problem then and still is that it requires other threats to even try to make it good. The memorial costs a ton of mana to drop and it is a huge target. It also requires additional creatures to make it decent. It is too slow and clunkey in my mind plus the fact that it isnt a threat on its own is sort of its own downfall.
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This might be a little off topic, but I feel like you could use Jenara's counter-creating ability in some way (besides simply pumping Jenara). For example, you could use Simic Guildmage to move +1/+1 counters around at instant speed for combat tricks (Simic Guildmage can also move auras around... e.g. Shielding Plax, Rancor, Angelic Destiny). Experimental Kraj can put counters out even cheaper than Jenara. And you could go really crazy with +1/+1 counters if you added a few Arcbound artifact creatures from Darksteel (e.g. Arcbound Reclaimer can be very useful; Arcbound Fiend can become a huge thread; Arcbound Overseer is basically the modular "lord" and an engine for generating +1/+1 counters, but you'd need a critical mass of them first). Throw in some proliferate effects (which also work nicely with Umezawa's Jitte, etc) and you could quickly have creatures that rival the Eldrazi in power/toughness.
*edit*
P.S. At those saying Umezawa's Jitte is clunky, underperforming, making you play bad, etc... If it's not working, you're doing it wrong. It's probably the best equipment ever made (some argue that Skullclamp is better... but for obviously very different reasons). It's probably the best colourless spot removal in the game (better than Dismember, imo - not that you can use Dismember in bant), and when you run out of creatures to remove, it gives +4/+4 - or you can use it to gain 4 life if you need it. And with proliferate, it can get absolutely unfair. It's has nearly as much impact as Argentum Armor, except instead of 6 to cast and 6 to equip, it's 2 and 2 (e.g. with Stonehewer Giant, I'll usually go for Argentum Armor; but with Stoneforge Mystic, I'll go for the Jitte unless I really need protection from a colour via one of the other swords).
This might be a little off topic, but I feel like you could use Jenara's counter-creating ability in some way (besides simply pumping Jenara). For example, you could use Simic Guildmage to move +1/+1 counters around at instant speed for combat tricks (Simic Guildmage can also move auras around... e.g. Shielding Plax, Rancor, Angelic Destiny). Experimental Kraj can put counters out even cheaper than Jenara. And you could go really crazy with +1/+1 counters if you added a few Arcbound artifact creatures from Darksteel (e.g. Arcbound Reclaimer can be very useful; Arcbound Fiend can become a huge thread; Arcbound Overseer is basically the modular "lord" and an engine for generating +1/+1 counters, but you'd need a critical mass of them first). Throw in some proliferate effects (which also work nicely with Umezawa's Jitte, etc) and you could quickly have creatures that rival the Eldrazi in power/toughness.
Honestly if I were to focus more on Jenara I think it would be in means of changing the deck into more of a permission control deck that uses Jenara as a beater.
The idea of focusing more on her level up ability is sort of interesting. I suppose you could toss in some Doubling Season and more token strategies but to be honest I think it would make for a lesser deck. While it could be fun I just see something like an Oblivion Stone really screwing something like that up badly. I think it might make for a fun casual deck but I dont see how it would be an improvement on what I currently have.
As for the idea of Umezawa's Jitte, it is probably my next favorite equipment that I am not currently using in here. The Jitte is really cool due to its flexability but when it came to tutoring up equipment with Stoneforge I just found that Jitte was never what I wanted. I did run it for a bit and it was fairly good but still it got hated on a lot for some reason. Something about me possibly giving Jenara like +10/+10 out of nowhere or something lol. It is a fun card though that I could see having the potential to be used again.
EDIT: Lol I ran out of room again when editing some of the details on some cards. I had to bump the strategy section down to the second post.
I played some more 1 v 1 games with this last night and I have some more thoughts. Just a preface -- I'm completely on board with the idea of the deck, and the color combination. That being said, the over all feeling I'm getting from this deck is that it's playing a bit too "fair", when there are so many opportunities in EDH to play unfairly.
Playing against decks where the generals are Kaalia of the Vast or Sharuum, the Hegemon where it was clear my opponent was doing very unfair things, I realized I should bring this to the thread's attention. I was able to win against this decks, but it just generally felt like I was playing with fair cards against my opponent's unfair cards. Cheating Akroma or a hasty dragon into play is unfair. Cheating Sundering Titan into play after discarding it to Bazaar of Baghdad and then getting it back with Crystal Shard is unfair.
I think this deck has the potential to do these unfair things even with the lack of a "useful" general.
Just to reiterate, I'm completely on board with this deck, it's the deck I want to play.
1. In multiplayer, is the Stoneforge Mystic package with the Sword of Fire and Ice and the Sword of Light and Shadow worth it? Their effects are good, but the three cards seem a bit out of place in the deck to be honest. I still feel the same way about the Darksteel Plate too... I'll need some more testing to convince me than any single creature is worth keep around. It just seems like there are better things we could be drawing.
2. Sylvan Library is awesome and a really great way to help smooth out a draw with roadbumps and/or get extra cards when you have high amounts of life. I'm pretty sure I want to get this card in here.
4. Garruk Wildspeaker might feel underwhelming, but untapping two lands and/or making tokens is something that needs to be answered. This is probably too weak.
6. Genesis Wave also seems like it could be pretty unfair.
7. What about Fauna Shaman? I understand that it will probably get killed a lot easier in multiplayer.
8. As you suggested previously, Lurking Predators might be worth running. If there are more ways to cheat with an Academy Rector, I'd like to know what they are.
EDIT -- 9. What about Karmic Justice? I'm sure you've already posted about it. Granted it doesn't "do" anything.
I played some more 1 v 1 games with this last night and I have some more thoughts. Just a preface -- I'm completely on board with the idea of the deck, and the color combination. That being said, the over all feeling I'm getting from this deck is that it's playing a bit too "fair", when there are so many opportunities in EDH to play unfairly.
Playing against decks where the generals are Kaalia of the Vast or Sharuum, the Hegemon where it was clear my opponent was doing very unfair things, I realized I should bring this to the thread's attention. I was able to win against this decks, but it just generally felt like I was playing with fair cards against my opponent's unfair cards. Cheating Akroma or a hasty dragon into play is unfair. Cheating Sundering Titan into play after discarding it to Bazaar of Baghdad and then getting it back with Crystal Shard is unfair.
I think this deck has the potential to do these unfair things even with the lack of a "useful" general.
Just to reiterate, I'm completely on board with this deck, it's the deck I want to play.
1. In multiplayer, is the Stoneforge Mystic package with the Sword of Fire and Ice and the Sword of Light and Shadow worth it? Their effects are good, but the three cards seem a bit out of place in the deck to be honest. I still feel the same way about the Darksteel Plate too... I'll need some more testing to convince me than any single creature is worth keep around. It just seems like there are better things we could be drawing.
2. Sylvan Library is awesome and a really great way to help smooth out a draw with roadbumps and/or get extra cards when you have high amounts of life. I'm pretty sure I want to get this card in here.
4. Garruk Wildspeaker might feel underwhelming, but untapping two lands and/or making tokens is something that needs to be answered. This is probably too weak.
6. Genesis Wave also seems like it coule be pretty unfair.
7. What about Fauna Shaman? I understand that it will probably get killed a lot easier in multiplayer.
8. As you suggested previously, Lurking Predators might be worth running. If there are more ways to cheat with an Academy Rector, I'd like to know what they are.
Good post lots of things to address. A few things I want to cover quickly before jumping into things:
Jenara as a commander: Honestly I think she is fairly decent for the deck as a whole. That being said though if they were to print another Bant commander I wouldn't be against moving from her to another option. I do like her in the fact that she is a fairly solid finisher on her own. You might try to just drop her in on turn 3 from time to time as I know I have made a lot of progress just dropping her in and swinging as a 3/3 for a bit. This early in mulitplayer games you can generally swing in for some good damage and put one of your opponents on the ropes. But again I agree with you that while she is alright as a commander she isn't perfect. I do like how she costs very little and has flying. Those alone can make her an amazing threat.
As for the doing fair things... I suppose this is debatable. There are lots of times where we can do really broken things through means of recursion / birthing pod. While they aren't all flashy most of them are still very powerful and effective. In multiplayer if you do too many flashy things you might end up loosing as it will make opponents feel like you are doing too well. Keep in mind that against both of those commanders if you tuck them that they become a lot less effective so the hinder effects work wonders there. Against Kaalia of the Vast make sure to try to shoot her down the first time she is cast as beyond her first appearance she looses a lot of power as she isn't accelerating her fatties nearly as quickly after that first time. If you continue to have issues with Sharuum, the Hegemon you might consider adding to your graveyard hate package. I only have 2 cards currently in and they can be a bit lacking at times if you need dedicated grave hate every game. I know my Jund deck runs like 5 dedicated gy hate cards to just punish those decks.
1) The equipment package could go either way to be honest. What I do really like about it though is that it gives a really amazing set of utility to some of those small utility creatures. Sometimes it sucks to have a ton of 1/1 creatures all the time and the swords give some burn, lifegain, rez, and card draw to do with them. I only have so many beater creatures in the list and the light and shadow can really pick them up for several uses which has been good in the past. If you really dont like the equipment package I dont think it will break you by any means to cut it though. The package is somewhat new to the list as is. I used to only run Skullclamp which I think you should continue to use even if you cut the swords / plate / and stoneforge though. The most memerable game with the swords I had was one where I rezed Akroma like 3 times with shadow and light and everyone conceded. There are times when they are just sort of meh and times where they really are game changers.
2) I agree that Sylvan Library is really amazing. I still run it in my Jund deck and it used to be in this deck. I used to run Scroll Rack as well and after a while I got sick of picking up multiple topdeck manipulation cards so I cut it back to just the top with 2 means to tutor the top if needed. However the library is really amazing and it is a solid card. I haven't really had issues with card draw in this deck though which is why I haven't really felt the need to pull it back in here. I think bringing back to the list is probably fine but I havent found the need for it myself.
3) Defense of the Heart I dont care much for due to the fact that you have to rely on your opponents board positions for it to activate. I have found it to be a bit too random for my own liking as when you really want it to pop it feels like it never will. Also it gives a whole turn to be answered and ignored altogether which sort of sucks.
Pattern of Rebirth I sort of worry about gettign 2 for oned trying this. If someone drops a Swords to Plowshares you loose both of them or they can just in response to the aura blow your creature out and you get 2 for 1ed. I think this card is better in a deck with some hexproof or something to it. It seems interesting but it would be really hard to control when the creature dies as well unless you strap it to a tribe elder or something. It seems amusing if you could get it to work successfully though.
4) Garruk Wildspeaker honestly I have a hard time with him. If you are running him to ramp you then why not just run Explosive Vegitation, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, or a mana stone instead as they will both work better due tot he fact that they dont die as easily. If you want the token spawning then I would rather run Elspeth instead who builds up to an amazing ultimate. I just dont quite see him as worth the spot due to how easily planeswalkers die in multiplayer. If you want to run him in heads up he would be a lot more powerful though.
5) Honestly I went against Future Sight early on due to the issues with my mana fix. However I have come a long ways since first building this deck and I will soon have my final 2 original duals and I think this might be worth running again. There is the option to run a storm combo here if we want a second combo to run. I do like how good the card advantage is here.
Decree of Silence I think I am going to stick to my guns saying it is too expensive and too unpredictable in multiplayer. I suppose there is always the option to try it out for yourself though. I think it is great in a deck like Hana but I don't see how we could really abuse it effectively in here. Give it a shot though if you want. I just wish you could pick and choose when to use up the counters.
6) Genesis Wave is a decent card. I used to use it in here but it felt like everytime I used it I was simply responded to by a wrath. The problem I have with this card is that it gives you this incentive to hold onto it all damn game then when you use it you have no clue what you will get from it so if you need an answer you might be screwed. I suppose if there is a certain point you would want to use it at I would be interested to know. Rite of Replication and Time Stretch are also big cards that I once used in this list. However I didn't like how dead they were in my hand for a majority of the game so I ended up cutting them for faster momentum cards.
7) Fauna Shaman was sort of a flop in my book. If I am not executing a combo I am not always even happy to see Survival and Fauna Shaman is soooooo much worse than Survival. The only one activation a turn plus cant use it the turn you drop it, plus how fragile it is just added up to it not being worth it in my book.
9) Karmic Justice I do like this card the most out of the deterrents. I think it is a solid card but if I were going to run this I would want more busted noncreature effects as well. It is good at making people think twice about blowing out that Lurking Predators.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
1. We should discuss more regarding the Stonefore Mystic + swords package. I 100% agree about keeping Skullclamp. I haven't questioned that card at all. So... I've found that even when I have a sword in play, I'm not necessarily swinging into my opponent with a Trinket Mage or a Solemn Simulacrum when they're equipped. They're usually just playing defense regardless, and the sword winds up sitting in my hand or in play just adding no value. They draw attention and cards from opponents which is nice though. My real question is, I guess, are we giving anything else up that could be better for these cards? If we aren't, then by all means, they make sense to keep.
2. I'm not a fan of Scroll Rack. Sylvan Library is just really better and easier to play with and takes up less time.
3. What's the storm combo with Future Sight? We could fix the mana base to allow for this card to be more easily castable. We're not running any pain-lands or M10 lands.
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I have never not wanted to have Mulldrifter. He can be rezed off of Reveillark, it flies and can carry swords or it can chump block for me. If for some reason there is an impending wrath I can always evoke him for cards. I cant really think of much of a reason as to why I dont like him to be honest. Is there a creature you would rather see in here instead?
Between Magus of the Future and Future Sight the Magus will be a hell of a lot easier to tutor up but it will also be more fragile. I think if we want to combo with it though the Magus will be easier to utilize but there is always the fact that it will be easier for opponents to kill. I suppose it would probably take some testing to see which is better to be honest.
1. We should discuss more regarding the Stonefore Mystic + swords package. I 100% agree about keeping Skullclamp. I haven't questioned that card at all. So... I've found that even when I have a sword in play, I'm not necessarily swinging into my opponent with a Trinket Mage or a Solemn Simulacrum when they're equipped. They're usually just playing defense regardless, and the sword winds up sitting in my hand or in play just adding no value. They draw attention and cards from opponents which is nice though. My real question is, I guess, are we giving anything else up that could be better for these cards? If we aren't, then by all means, they make sense to keep.
2. I'm not a fan of Scroll Rack. Sylvan Library is just really better and easier to play with and takes up less time.
3. What's the storm combo with Future Sight? We could fix the mana base to allow for this card to be more easily castable. We're not running any pain-lands or M10 lands.
1) The only reason I would sit behind a sword on defense would be because I already swung with it and then moved it afterwards. If you arent connecting with the swords then no they are no good pull them out. I wouldn't mind hearing why you aren't swinging with them though. What I really like about the swords is that they trigger some great card advantage potentially several times whereas instead you could have some one shot stuff or different creature support perhaps something like Beastmaster Ascension which would be more aggressive or a different means of control. If you find it hard to cast or utilize the swords then pull them out as they are clearly not doing much for you.
2) I agree that Sylvan Library is much better than Scroll Rack. Some like it more than Top as well but considering how much sweeping noncreature hate I see I run top instead. Scroll Rack has its place though in some decks especially if you are willing to run Land Tax with it. But still it isnt right for this deck. I tested it way back.
The idea is that you reduce the cost of the divining top to cost 0 then you abuse it to draw your whole deck by continuing to place it on top of your library then cast it off the top of it with the future sight for 0 mana each time. You end up casting your top a good 60+ times and then you drop your storm spell to own your opponents. In these colors it would probably need to be Brain Freeze or Temporal Fissure that you storm it out with. The Brain Freeze is sort of situational in the fact that if someone has a shuffle in effect or an eldrazi in their deck it can fizzle. Still it is a powerful combo. It is better if you have red or black in your colors as they can just direct damage / life loss opponents on the spot.
As for the land base I think once I get the other duals in here I should be fine. I have had issues before in the past running too few basics for my search stuff so I don't want to dilute that too far but I think the manabase should be able to handle it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
If you're recommending Beastmaster Ascension then I'm definitely playing differently than you are. I'm not really looking to attack until I've already established some sort of stability. I think I'm not yet convinced that the creatures need the "support" that you're suggesting, given that I'm not really attacking much. Again, since I'm not sure what I'd want instead of them, I haven't yet replaced them.
I'm usually looking to cast mana ramp guys like Farhaven Elf or Wood Elves and Solem Simulacrum. And then I'm looking to find a way to destroy something on their board with Acidic Slime or something. After that, I'm just looking to get some advantage and board position.
To be perfectly honest, I'm never really looking at the opponent's life total (at all) when I play this deck.
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How about adding Terastodon to the list then? He will absolutely tear apart their board position usually. I dont usually find that I need to remove more than 1-2 things at a time but he is a real card advantage engine. Recur / copy him and people will be crying.
Also I wasnt really recommending Beastmaster Ascension so much as just saying other creature utility. I really doubt it would ever be a good card in this list as I rarely swarm with a bunch of guys.
I would really recommend swinging when you have the opportunity. Every little bit is pressure and unless you have a reason to think you will be retaliated on strongly there is no reason not to. I usually start swinging as soon as I can with wood elves unless I have a reason to think I will be swung back at.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I actually think Terastodon is a good idea, and I am not worried about the 3/3's that it would drop. The main concern would be if my opponent casts Bribery, which seems to be a staple in any deck that plays blue.
I do attack when I have the opportunity, but in general, when playing this deck, it's not really my main goal. I think in all the games I've played with this deck, I've won exactly one game due to actually killing the opponent and Venser, the Sojourner's unblockable ability. Every other game I win is when the opponent concedes due to being outmatched by my board position and their lack of steam.
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You might also try using Jenara a bit more. I know that in multiplayer I use her for at least a good 40% of my kills. If you arent utilizing her as much you might want to pick up on your other wincons.
As for not really wanting to eat your own Terastodon, I can completely understand that. CIP abilities are a total ***** with Bribery. You do have a few options such as Oblation and Venser, the Sojourner to try to pick your creatures back up but man if they do a turn 5 or less bribery into Terastodon and blow your land base that is almost game over. Granted in multiplayer the chances of someone being that spiteful to one player is very slim. In heads up though I have to assume it is likely to happen.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I actually do use Jenara, and I think she is a fine card, but a bit unexciting. I can see her as a fine win condition for sure, I'm just thinking of more ways to get utility out of every card in the deck. To be fair, I enjoy the equipment package, and in general I love tutoring. I really enjoy the flexibility it offers... maybe that's why I like the Academy Rector so much.
Just a side note, I enjoy spending time going back and forth like this when I build decks for ptq's and pro tours (with actually a pretty high success rate), and one thing that you mentioned above, is to think back at the cards that were removed that may now be good again in the deck.
I'm looking at my original list and the only card that sticks out is Yosei, the Morning Star.
Also, compared to other primers I've read on any EDH deck, it's obvious the amount of thought that went into each of the cards that is in or out of this deck. Guess I got lucky since it's the color combo I want to play.
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I recall you added Wall of Blossoms to your Sek'kuar deck. I'm wondering if that might be a good addition as well as maybe Wall of Omens. They serve to filter into useful cards effectively and are amazing recursion targets in this deck. Their strong defense is just gravy.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
I agree that jace is going to draw some lolz hate. I am not sold on him I simply havent ever tried him in EDH so I figure it is worth proxing up at least once. I have my doubts but I try not to say no to a card without ever testing it.
As for Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms. They have both been very powerful in my Sek'Kuar but my concern is that my Jenara list tends to be a lot more aggressive. Sek'Kuar takes a long time to get going and so it tends to be a lot more defensive in the early game. Also there is the whole fact that I can sacrifice them to spawn tokens later for Sek. I have considered them a few times but I think Elvish Visionary is more likely to make a spot due to the fact that it can swing with a sword, be skullclamped for cards, or be utilized with Mirror Entity or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as an attack force. I think the big difference between the lists is that Sek'Kuar needs early defense and things to sac whereas Jenara wants attackers with card advantage. I have seriously been considering the Elvish Visionary though as it is sort of like Coiling Oracle #2
Well there are a few other big fatty creatures you have mentioned that I wouldnt mind giving a shot at some point in time. The two that interested me were: Twilight Shepherd and Stormtide Leviathan. I think they could both be worthy of at least testing. Also Elvish Visionary could give an additional early game creature as there really isnt much that I am doing at the 2 mana mark plus it always replaces itself in hand which is really good. I have also been toying with Beast Within as I have had some issues with noncreature effects that an instant speed response would be good for.
I will give jace a shot first though before I judge though. I think there are plenty of other good options that could go in here.
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Experimental Kraj
I went back and forth on it due to the amount of spot removal I have in the list already. I dont have a whole lot that can hit noncreatures at instant speed though and I do like the versatility of Beast Within. It was just that I didnt have anything in particular earlier that I could remove. I still sort of wonder if I am getting a bit much spot removal though. It can be a pain to have multiiple spot removal spells in hand in multiplayer. But I do like them.
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1. When I win games, it's by by earning a very strong amount of control and toolbox options, and the opponent concedes. I don't think I've ever actually killed someone to zero life.
2. I still have not found any use for the Darksteel Plate. Maybe in multiplayer it's more useful? For your big guys?
3. Avenger of Zendikar doesn't seem like he's in the spirit of what the deck wants to do. Again, this is just in my experience in 1 vs 1. I'm wondering if there is another creature at this high casting cost that does more. Perhaps a wrath effect of some sort?
4. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a really excellent card and fits perfectly in the deck.
5. Rhystic Study is definitely good. Grand Arbiter Augistin, IV might also be worth considering.
6. Wild Pair has been good and fun for me, but it's a tiny bit slow. When I do get it going, it has been winning me games. I'm currently running it over the Darksteel Plate.
7. I haven't yet had the chance to really see Akroma, Angel of Wrath in action, but in 1 vs 1, I don't really want to see her.
I'm hoping to get some multi-player games in at my local store this week, I've just been testing the list on MWS currently.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
As for Darksteel Plate, obviously in multiplayer there is a lot more wrath removal due to the fact that a lot less people run 1 for 1 spot removal. I run somewhat of a high spot removal count in here due to all of the card advantage I have in here plus the fact that not everything requires a wrath response. It is very useful to have the option to have a blocker that wont die to dissuade people from attacking you, or keep a creature through that wrath, or make it harder to kill your best threat. In heads up though you see more spot removal and they can obviously respond to the equip. I think it is a lot worse in a heads up game. If you arent finding it useful its not going to kill you to remove it from the list. I have just found it to be useful in several different ways in multiplayer.
I agree with you that Avenger of Zendikar feels a bit odd in this list. I use him in multiplayer to force a wrath, provide chumps for days, or randomly run people over if they are out of wrath effects. In multiplayer there is a lot less spot removal so he usually keeps pumping his guys. I dont think he is necessary and if you continuously are playing 1v1 rather than multiplayer you might consider changing the list up a bit. I do like the Avenger in a tooth and nail as he is a champ there.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath is a big fan of mine due to the vigilance she has plus the fact that she hits right away. She can do a lot of damage very quickly and personally she is one of my favorite creatures on the list. Part of why she is so good is due to the fact that multiplayer people dont want to swing at the board with blockers. She provides an attacker and a blocker at the same time and she can feel a bit underwhelming. I would say just try to bring her out sometime as she is really good and she is usually my go to beater of choice. Black decks really hate her as well as she just forces them to wrath.
I am glad you are enjoying the list. I would suggest you make some modifications to the list based on what you want to accomplish. Obviously my list isnt going to be best for everyone's meta. Also I didnt build this list specifically for 1v1 so you might need additional modifications for if that is what you want to focus on.
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I also just realized that you don't at least include Mirari's Wake in the possible enchantments section. Is there a specific reason for this?
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
My reason for not including it was due to an over abundance amount of noncreature hate. These effects never seem to stick to the board for me. Generally speaking I find that I am fine with my land ramp but you can run it. Another thing to note though is that if you end up setting up a lark combo the wake will screw up Mirror Entity as the sac outlet. It is a decent card though if you can stick it. I used to run a lot of those sort of effects but literally I went through like 4 of them in one game and they were all answered before I untapped and so I got sick of that.
I should put it in the enchantments section regardless though. Thanks for pointing it out.
EDIT: I added Mirari's Wake & Wild Pair to the card options areas.
EDIT 2: Ohhh and I am glad you are enjoying Bant. It has been my absolute favorite color combination so far and it has a lot of powerful effects that can be very synergistic.
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Also I'm a bit surprised by no Krosan Grip it's a combo killer for most decks. I honestly dislike Rhystic study, maybe it depends on the meta of a person's play area but hardly anyone plays that card anymore the cost always gets paid, and if they don't have enough to pay for it they wait a turn which in most cases doesn't seem to hurt them too bad.
Something to look into could be privileged position a great way to stop people from messing with your permanents; and it goes nicely with Sterling Grove
Urabrask the hidden good way to give all your creatures haste, and stop other heavy creature decks.Also if you like Akroma, which I understand you're looking for more creatures for the deck why not just play Akroma's Memorial make all your creatures Akroma.Also nice props for a Capt. Sisay deck, had one myself.
For some reason I thought Jenara had Red in her Cast.
Urabrask looks quite red to me.
EDIT: I see you noticed that too.
Thanks for the reply I will go through things one at a time here.
Melira Sylvok Outcast + Persist creature + Sac Outlet: I have known about this for some time. I think it is a decent combo to be honest but my real problem with this combo is that it runs a lot of things that I dont actually really want in this list outside of the combo. If I were to draw Melira Sylvok Outcast on her own, she is a bad card with little effect. Also generally speaking I dont have much for sac outlets. If I were to run a card to tutor up a sac outlet such as Greater Good then I might as well have tutored into Survival and combod out from there. This combo requires 3 cards that need to be tutored up seperately and there is no real easy way to tutor them all up at once. I guess in my mind it is too difficult to tutor up and or assemble and it requires too many cards that aren't good cards on their own to run it. I just decided recently to cut Greater Good from the list and outside of the persist guys Melira Sylvok Outcast is sort of a bad card.
Krosan Grip good card but I dont see much combo in my area currently. Most of us are agro players so that is why. If I do see some combo I can usually respond to it by playing one of my instant speed combo breakers anyways. Oblation and Beast Within are usually better in my mind unless there is a chance that your opponent has the counterspell backup which very few in my area do. It is a good card though for if that is what you have to combat regularly. It just isn't what I currently have to deal with.
I dont run privileged position as it often just gets nocked out itself. We see a lot of Austere Command and Oblivion Stones in my meta so it sort of usually just turns into collateral damage in one of those. Plus trying to harden your board position usually just pisses people off to the point where you draw everyone's hate.
Sterling Grove considering how few enchantments I have I dont see the point. I ran Enlightened Tutor for a while but I decided it wasnt good enough. The Grove + privileged position sounds like fun but I think it would just piss people off to the point that I would be hated off quickly. Again there are too many sweeper effects that hit these things in my meta to run them. Generally speaking I think Enlightened Tutor is probably just a better card anyways.
Akroma's Memorial in the past I have tried this in a few decks. My problem then and still is that it requires other threats to even try to make it good. The memorial costs a ton of mana to drop and it is a huge target. It also requires additional creatures to make it decent. It is too slow and clunkey in my mind plus the fact that it isnt a threat on its own is sort of its own downfall.
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*edit*
P.S. At those saying Umezawa's Jitte is clunky, underperforming, making you play bad, etc... If it's not working, you're doing it wrong. It's probably the best equipment ever made (some argue that Skullclamp is better... but for obviously very different reasons). It's probably the best colourless spot removal in the game (better than Dismember, imo - not that you can use Dismember in bant), and when you run out of creatures to remove, it gives +4/+4 - or you can use it to gain 4 life if you need it. And with proliferate, it can get absolutely unfair. It's has nearly as much impact as Argentum Armor, except instead of 6 to cast and 6 to equip, it's 2 and 2 (e.g. with Stonehewer Giant, I'll usually go for Argentum Armor; but with Stoneforge Mystic, I'll go for the Jitte unless I really need protection from a colour via one of the other swords).
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
Honestly if I were to focus more on Jenara I think it would be in means of changing the deck into more of a permission control deck that uses Jenara as a beater.
The idea of focusing more on her level up ability is sort of interesting. I suppose you could toss in some Doubling Season and more token strategies but to be honest I think it would make for a lesser deck. While it could be fun I just see something like an Oblivion Stone really screwing something like that up badly. I think it might make for a fun casual deck but I dont see how it would be an improvement on what I currently have.
As for the idea of Umezawa's Jitte, it is probably my next favorite equipment that I am not currently using in here. The Jitte is really cool due to its flexability but when it came to tutoring up equipment with Stoneforge I just found that Jitte was never what I wanted. I did run it for a bit and it was fairly good but still it got hated on a lot for some reason. Something about me possibly giving Jenara like +10/+10 out of nowhere or something lol. It is a fun card though that I could see having the potential to be used again.
EDIT: Lol I ran out of room again when editing some of the details on some cards. I had to bump the strategy section down to the second post.
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Playing against decks where the generals are Kaalia of the Vast or Sharuum, the Hegemon where it was clear my opponent was doing very unfair things, I realized I should bring this to the thread's attention. I was able to win against this decks, but it just generally felt like I was playing with fair cards against my opponent's unfair cards. Cheating Akroma or a hasty dragon into play is unfair. Cheating Sundering Titan into play after discarding it to Bazaar of Baghdad and then getting it back with Crystal Shard is unfair.
I think this deck has the potential to do these unfair things even with the lack of a "useful" general.
Just to reiterate, I'm completely on board with this deck, it's the deck I want to play.
1. In multiplayer, is the Stoneforge Mystic package with the Sword of Fire and Ice and the Sword of Light and Shadow worth it? Their effects are good, but the three cards seem a bit out of place in the deck to be honest. I still feel the same way about the Darksteel Plate too... I'll need some more testing to convince me than any single creature is worth keep around. It just seems like there are better things we could be drawing.
2. Sylvan Library is awesome and a really great way to help smooth out a draw with roadbumps and/or get extra cards when you have high amounts of life. I'm pretty sure I want to get this card in here.
3. What about cards like Defense of the Heart or Pattern of Rebirth? These cards seem like they might be unfair.
4. Garruk Wildspeaker might feel underwhelming, but untapping two lands and/or making tokens is something that needs to be answered. This is probably too weak.
5. I still am looking around to for more unfair enchantments. I'm now convinced Rhystic Study is good. What about Future Sight? Decree of Silence?
6. Genesis Wave also seems like it could be pretty unfair.
7. What about Fauna Shaman? I understand that it will probably get killed a lot easier in multiplayer.
8. As you suggested previously, Lurking Predators might be worth running. If there are more ways to cheat with an Academy Rector, I'd like to know what they are.
EDIT -- 9. What about Karmic Justice? I'm sure you've already posted about it. Granted it doesn't "do" anything.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Good post lots of things to address. A few things I want to cover quickly before jumping into things:
Jenara as a commander: Honestly I think she is fairly decent for the deck as a whole. That being said though if they were to print another Bant commander I wouldn't be against moving from her to another option. I do like her in the fact that she is a fairly solid finisher on her own. You might try to just drop her in on turn 3 from time to time as I know I have made a lot of progress just dropping her in and swinging as a 3/3 for a bit. This early in mulitplayer games you can generally swing in for some good damage and put one of your opponents on the ropes. But again I agree with you that while she is alright as a commander she isn't perfect. I do like how she costs very little and has flying. Those alone can make her an amazing threat.
As for the doing fair things... I suppose this is debatable. There are lots of times where we can do really broken things through means of recursion / birthing pod. While they aren't all flashy most of them are still very powerful and effective. In multiplayer if you do too many flashy things you might end up loosing as it will make opponents feel like you are doing too well. Keep in mind that against both of those commanders if you tuck them that they become a lot less effective so the hinder effects work wonders there. Against Kaalia of the Vast make sure to try to shoot her down the first time she is cast as beyond her first appearance she looses a lot of power as she isn't accelerating her fatties nearly as quickly after that first time. If you continue to have issues with Sharuum, the Hegemon you might consider adding to your graveyard hate package. I only have 2 cards currently in and they can be a bit lacking at times if you need dedicated grave hate every game. I know my Jund deck runs like 5 dedicated gy hate cards to just punish those decks.
1) The equipment package could go either way to be honest. What I do really like about it though is that it gives a really amazing set of utility to some of those small utility creatures. Sometimes it sucks to have a ton of 1/1 creatures all the time and the swords give some burn, lifegain, rez, and card draw to do with them. I only have so many beater creatures in the list and the light and shadow can really pick them up for several uses which has been good in the past. If you really dont like the equipment package I dont think it will break you by any means to cut it though. The package is somewhat new to the list as is. I used to only run Skullclamp which I think you should continue to use even if you cut the swords / plate / and stoneforge though. The most memerable game with the swords I had was one where I rezed Akroma like 3 times with shadow and light and everyone conceded. There are times when they are just sort of meh and times where they really are game changers.
2) I agree that Sylvan Library is really amazing. I still run it in my Jund deck and it used to be in this deck. I used to run Scroll Rack as well and after a while I got sick of picking up multiple topdeck manipulation cards so I cut it back to just the top with 2 means to tutor the top if needed. However the library is really amazing and it is a solid card. I haven't really had issues with card draw in this deck though which is why I haven't really felt the need to pull it back in here. I think bringing back to the list is probably fine but I havent found the need for it myself.
3) Defense of the Heart I dont care much for due to the fact that you have to rely on your opponents board positions for it to activate. I have found it to be a bit too random for my own liking as when you really want it to pop it feels like it never will. Also it gives a whole turn to be answered and ignored altogether which sort of sucks.
Pattern of Rebirth I sort of worry about gettign 2 for oned trying this. If someone drops a Swords to Plowshares you loose both of them or they can just in response to the aura blow your creature out and you get 2 for 1ed. I think this card is better in a deck with some hexproof or something to it. It seems interesting but it would be really hard to control when the creature dies as well unless you strap it to a tribe elder or something. It seems amusing if you could get it to work successfully though.
4) Garruk Wildspeaker honestly I have a hard time with him. If you are running him to ramp you then why not just run Explosive Vegitation, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, or a mana stone instead as they will both work better due tot he fact that they dont die as easily. If you want the token spawning then I would rather run Elspeth instead who builds up to an amazing ultimate. I just dont quite see him as worth the spot due to how easily planeswalkers die in multiplayer. If you want to run him in heads up he would be a lot more powerful though.
5) Honestly I went against Future Sight early on due to the issues with my mana fix. However I have come a long ways since first building this deck and I will soon have my final 2 original duals and I think this might be worth running again. There is the option to run a storm combo here if we want a second combo to run. I do like how good the card advantage is here.
Decree of Silence I think I am going to stick to my guns saying it is too expensive and too unpredictable in multiplayer. I suppose there is always the option to try it out for yourself though. I think it is great in a deck like Hana but I don't see how we could really abuse it effectively in here. Give it a shot though if you want. I just wish you could pick and choose when to use up the counters.
6) Genesis Wave is a decent card. I used to use it in here but it felt like everytime I used it I was simply responded to by a wrath. The problem I have with this card is that it gives you this incentive to hold onto it all damn game then when you use it you have no clue what you will get from it so if you need an answer you might be screwed. I suppose if there is a certain point you would want to use it at I would be interested to know. Rite of Replication and Time Stretch are also big cards that I once used in this list. However I didn't like how dead they were in my hand for a majority of the game so I ended up cutting them for faster momentum cards.
7) Fauna Shaman was sort of a flop in my book. If I am not executing a combo I am not always even happy to see Survival and Fauna Shaman is soooooo much worse than Survival. The only one activation a turn plus cant use it the turn you drop it, plus how fragile it is just added up to it not being worth it in my book.
8) Wargate is amazing in the fact that it can go get these sort of effects. Also you can run Enlightened Tutor, Sterling Grove, and Idyllic Tutor as means to tutor for it if you want.
Mystical Tutor into wargate is fairly solid as well for this.
9) Karmic Justice I do like this card the most out of the deterrents. I think it is a solid card but if I were going to run this I would want more busted noncreature effects as well. It is good at making people think twice about blowing out that Lurking Predators.
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How good has Mulldrifter really been? I know this sounds like crazy talk, but I'm just asking.
Unrelated what about Magus of the Future? He can be searched out with Birthing Pod, and he can be brought back with Reveillark.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
2. I'm not a fan of Scroll Rack. Sylvan Library is just really better and easier to play with and takes up less time.
3. What's the storm combo with Future Sight? We could fix the mana base to allow for this card to be more easily castable. We're not running any pain-lands or M10 lands.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
I have never not wanted to have Mulldrifter. He can be rezed off of Reveillark, it flies and can carry swords or it can chump block for me. If for some reason there is an impending wrath I can always evoke him for cards. I cant really think of much of a reason as to why I dont like him to be honest. Is there a creature you would rather see in here instead?
Between Magus of the Future and Future Sight the Magus will be a hell of a lot easier to tutor up but it will also be more fragile. I think if we want to combo with it though the Magus will be easier to utilize but there is always the fact that it will be easier for opponents to kill. I suppose it would probably take some testing to see which is better to be honest.
1) The only reason I would sit behind a sword on defense would be because I already swung with it and then moved it afterwards. If you arent connecting with the swords then no they are no good pull them out. I wouldn't mind hearing why you aren't swinging with them though. What I really like about the swords is that they trigger some great card advantage potentially several times whereas instead you could have some one shot stuff or different creature support perhaps something like Beastmaster Ascension which would be more aggressive or a different means of control. If you find it hard to cast or utilize the swords then pull them out as they are clearly not doing much for you.
2) I agree that Sylvan Library is much better than Scroll Rack. Some like it more than Top as well but considering how much sweeping noncreature hate I see I run top instead. Scroll Rack has its place though in some decks especially if you are willing to run Land Tax with it. But still it isnt right for this deck. I tested it way back.
3) The storm combo is usually executed as such:
Future Sight + Sensei's Divining Top + Helm of Awakening / Cloud Key / Etherium Sculptor
The idea is that you reduce the cost of the divining top to cost 0 then you abuse it to draw your whole deck by continuing to place it on top of your library then cast it off the top of it with the future sight for 0 mana each time. You end up casting your top a good 60+ times and then you drop your storm spell to own your opponents. In these colors it would probably need to be Brain Freeze or Temporal Fissure that you storm it out with. The Brain Freeze is sort of situational in the fact that if someone has a shuffle in effect or an eldrazi in their deck it can fizzle. Still it is a powerful combo. It is better if you have red or black in your colors as they can just direct damage / life loss opponents on the spot.
As for the land base I think once I get the other duals in here I should be fine. I have had issues before in the past running too few basics for my search stuff so I don't want to dilute that too far but I think the manabase should be able to handle it.
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[Modern] Allies
I'm usually looking to cast mana ramp guys like Farhaven Elf or Wood Elves and Solem Simulacrum. And then I'm looking to find a way to destroy something on their board with Acidic Slime or something. After that, I'm just looking to get some advantage and board position.
To be perfectly honest, I'm never really looking at the opponent's life total (at all) when I play this deck.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Also I wasnt really recommending Beastmaster Ascension so much as just saying other creature utility. I really doubt it would ever be a good card in this list as I rarely swarm with a bunch of guys.
I would really recommend swinging when you have the opportunity. Every little bit is pressure and unless you have a reason to think you will be retaliated on strongly there is no reason not to. I usually start swinging as soon as I can with wood elves unless I have a reason to think I will be swung back at.
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[Modern] Allies
I do attack when I have the opportunity, but in general, when playing this deck, it's not really my main goal. I think in all the games I've played with this deck, I've won exactly one game due to actually killing the opponent and Venser, the Sojourner's unblockable ability. Every other game I win is when the opponent concedes due to being outmatched by my board position and their lack of steam.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
As for not really wanting to eat your own Terastodon, I can completely understand that. CIP abilities are a total ***** with Bribery. You do have a few options such as Oblation and Venser, the Sojourner to try to pick your creatures back up but man if they do a turn 5 or less bribery into Terastodon and blow your land base that is almost game over. Granted in multiplayer the chances of someone being that spiteful to one player is very slim. In heads up though I have to assume it is likely to happen.
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[Modern] Allies
Just a side note, I enjoy spending time going back and forth like this when I build decks for ptq's and pro tours (with actually a pretty high success rate), and one thing that you mentioned above, is to think back at the cards that were removed that may now be good again in the deck.
I'm looking at my original list and the only card that sticks out is Yosei, the Morning Star.
Also, compared to other primers I've read on any EDH deck, it's obvious the amount of thought that went into each of the cards that is in or out of this deck. Guess I got lucky since it's the color combo I want to play.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.