Couldn't he just one-shot you with rafiq the next turn, after you've only laid one land ? Am I missing something that everyone shuffles & starts over ? I though it was just you while everyone else keeps all the stuff they have (that likely just killed you) out.
Couldn't he just one-shot you with rafiq the next turn, after you've only laid one land ? Am I missing something that everyone shuffles & starts over ? I though it was just you while everyone else keeps all the stuff they have (that likely just killed you) out.
Yes, he could have... but the Kaalia at my table decided to Hollowed Burial (His Kaalia had already been tucked and Rafiq was getting stupid). I never really recovered... but it was good stuff.
The main point of the story was that it is hilarious to actually see peoples face when it goes off... yeah... I'm way behind... but at least I'm no longer a threat and still alive.
C'mon RtR... gimme some colorless artifact Hexproofing.
Yes, he could have... but the Kaalia at my table decided to Hollowed Burial (His Kaalia had already been tucked and Rafiq was getting stupid). I never really recovered... but it was good stuff.
The main point of the story was that it is hilarious to actually see peoples face when it goes off... yeah... I'm way behind... but at least I'm no longer a threat and still alive.
C'mon RtR... gimme some colorless artifact Hexproofing.
You want a colorless artifact that gives Hexproof? Similar to Swiftfoot Boots, or in mass quantity?
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You want a colorless artifact that gives Hexproof? Similar to Swiftfoot Boots, or in mass quantity?
In my dreams it's just like the Darksteel Forge... but for Hexproof instead of Indestructible.
The only weakness, aside from fliers, that I've seen so far is the ability to remove my stuff by exiling, i.e. Return to Dust.
As I've tweaked my Karn towards a bit more combo-centric build, nothing sucks worse than having my Forge removed, or somebody copying my Forge when I have the Latice out.
If I they don't make something (and I'm willing to take spot-Hexproof like you mentioned... as long as it can target creature and non-creature artifacts) in RtR I may have to move Karn into the 99 and go back to running Hannah, Ship's Navigator just for Hanna's Custody and similar cards.
If someone goes to target all your junk with shattering spree and you have...say... an Akroma's memorial and a Karn out with a lot (or infinite) mana, can you animate all your artifacts in response to the shattering spree and have them be illegal targets upon resolution of the spree ?
I know shattering spree isnt as prevalent as the blue bounce and white exiling that hurts us the most. Having an artifact that says
"Cards may not be returned to their owner's hand from the battlefield"
is right up there on my list of dream cards. Right next to the artifact that says:
"Players invert their libraries
(To invert your library, you flip your library upside down. If this is the first time you've inverted your library, the top card should be face up.)"
If someone goes to target all your junk with shattering spree and you have...say... an Akroma's memorial and a Karn out with a lot (or infinite) mana, can you animate all your artifacts in response to the shattering spree and have them be illegal targets upon resolution of the spree ?
I know shattering spree isnt as prevalent as the blue bounce and white exiling that hurts us the most. Having an artifact that says
"Cards may not be returned to their owner's hand from the battlefield"
is right up there on my list of dream cards. Right next to the artifact that says:
"Players invert their libraries
(To invert your library, you flip your library upside down. If this is the first time you've inverted your library, the top card should be face up.)"
As a Norin pilot, I'm very familiar with Shattering Spree... but yes, you could. I mean, this deck has immense protection from destroy effects, and enough recursion that it doesn't matter if it does get sent to the GY... it's getting back my key pieces. I put the Claws of Gix in my build just to be able to save key pieces if needs be... problems is I never am able to get to it fast enough.
You know what... as a realist that knows that they'll never print an artifact that gives artifacts Hexproof... I'd gladly take the one you came up with. Having a permanent out that makes it impossible to bounce other arts would be awesome (might screw with Erratic Portal though).
Explain the inversion idea a little more in depth for me though. You basically want a Future Sight for arts, if I'm reading you right? (I, too, would kill for a "play with top card revealed" artifact)
No future sight. I've always wanted a card that flips your (everyone's) library upside down. Not one card at a time - the whole thing. You'd now be drawing from what was the bottom. I've wanted this since Legends (field of dreams never really scratched my itch). When this effect happened, the now-top would be considered the top of your library.
It'd have cool interactions with scroll rack, top, top-of-the-deck-tutors additionally, miracles would be more obvious.
No future sight. I've always wanted a card that flips your (everyone's) library upside down. Not one card at a time - the whole thing. You'd now be drawing from what was the bottom. I've wanted this since Legends (field of dreams never really scratched my itch). When this effect happened, the now-top would be considered the top of your library.
It'd have cool interactions with scroll rack, top, top-of-the-deck-tutors additionally, miracles would be more obvious.
Don't misunderstand me I see that you want the whole deck inverted so that all cards are technically face up... I still maintain that it is technically a Future Sight type of effect as you play with the top card showing...
It most certainly would be awesome... SDT'ing would be a breeze, if not a little too revealing... and you could possibly save yourself from a Tunnel Vision (if the inversion spell/effect is instant) or recover Silver-butt from a tuck.
(With Voltaic Construct Infinite Combo) +Mycosynth Lattice + Springjack Pasture
i dont think this works...... the springack pasture becomes a 0/0 creature and dies... no untapping it. youd have to voltaic key rings of bright hearth+infinite mana.....
Here's what I posted: Pasture : Huh. I wrote that years ago. I know I couldn't be using the volty to untap him (since he'd be a 0/0). it was probably using rings brighthearth and voltaic key (and that got lost in one of the tons of edits I've done). I'm going to look into to this deeper after work and try to remember what I was trying to convey. Note that if that's the case, you could do this with a basalt monolith or Scorched ruins, a voltaic key, rings of brighhearth, the lattice and a springjack pasture. No Karn required !
I'm planning on going through and doing a full thorough update after RTR comes out. This revision will be included.
okay so i just wanted to post a combo i think is super sweet but will never see the light of day because its too complicated. okay so field is.. karn, silver golem maze of ith fortified with a darksteel garrison mycosynth lattice eldrazi monument akroma's memorial
plus random land
so turn the maze into a creature swing with it and karn. tapped the maze to untap itself indefinitely and turn karn into a 100,000,000/100,000,000
despite the garrisons miniscule value as a combo card it will not be added into my version as much as i would like to. you can also go with the deserted temple scorched ruins rings of brightheath darksteel garrison + creature.
This is awesome. It's exactly things like this that make me love playing this deck.
Edit:
Codex Shredder looks like it just got spoiled. If this is the case, he's probably going to replace the arcbound reclaimer.
Codex Shredder - 1
Artifact
tap: Target player puts the top card of their library into their graveyard
5, tap: Sac Codex Shredder: Return target card from your graveyard to your hand
This has several notable interactions if this is the case :
1) The shredder is a win condition against anyone not running eldrazi.
2) The inverse - it's a gy-saver when coupled with scroll rack and your own eldrazi
3) It dodges most removal like a certain top we all know. If I'm not mistaken, the sac is part of the (second ability) cost - so it's in the gy by time you need to choose - making it a legal target to return - right ?
4) This little fella coupled with a Rings of Brighthearth seems very good if you've got the gas for it.
5) This will likely disappoint and catch a few people off guard that use any of the top/scroll rack/Vamp tutor/ponder/miracle shenanigans.
6) Lastly, if your group (foolishly) let you play Chaos Orb (because we all own one, right ?), then this should persuade them to finally make you get rid of the thing.
Clearly, I'm excited.
Rogue's Passage might find a slot in here too - looks like we could couple it with the grafted exoskeleton to get more mileage out of it.
3) It dodges most removal like a certain top we all know. If I'm not mistaken, the sac is part of the (second ability) cost - so it's in the gy by time you need to choose - making it a legal target to return - right ?
No, you choose targets before costs are paid. That's why, for example, you can use wasteland on itself (choose target, then pay sac cost) and why you can't, conversely, sac codex shredder targeting itself.
No, you choose targets before costs are paid. That's why, for example, you can use wasteland on itself (choose target, then pay sac cost) and why you can't, conversely, sac codex shredder targeting itself.
I believe that this is correct, Burnt.
However, with the Salvaging Station out you get two things back, and that's enough to over look this ruling.
Weird. That seems counter-intuitive for an old-timer like me. I remember reading an article not too long ago about recurring nightmare being bounced as part of it's activation cost and how that made it a slippery target. Maybe mis-remembering that made me think of the shredder's interaction incorrectly.
And to be fully honest, I simply don't care enough about the minute interactions of the game like that anymore. Even if I could cite the chapter and verse of the rule, I'd likely get laughed out of the game at our table - but it's good to know all possible interactions of how the thing works.
Either way, I'm thinking it's still going to be an incredibly useful new tool in the arsenal and plan on throwing it in there ASAP.
Please see posts 63-70 for a review on how ice cauldron works. It's a beautiful relic of the way old Magic used to be.
The ornate Kanzashi functions primarily as a wincon. It lets you exile every opponents library when you're in combo mode. In dire straits, it works as a last ditch effort to try and win outta nowhere off your opponents deck.
ah, i figured it was that much. Somehow, it seemed, with the way it was worded, that if you don't put mana down for the counter, you won't have accomplished the layaway plan. So, either or on layaway vs. extended hand, is how I'm reading it. Oh, and being able to still cast the cards dropped on cauldron after cauldron is removed is just hilarious.
And zashi is cute, but if you have infinite draw, you can just go and destroy all their perms anyway with predator flagship + mycosynth lattice + karn activations. Or just use a destroy everything effect + make everything you have indestructible artifact. Style points though, I get that, but I'd rather avoid being the target for the rest of eternity =3
Karn's combo is rather slow compared the other combos in the format. It's basically the same speed, or slightly slower, than azami, but with stax pieces instead of permission. I have multiple configurations of this deck that I put together on a whim. One is pure combo (utility + draw + mana), one is stax heavy (skimps on mana rocks and the more ridiculous draws), one is reanimator stax (myr welder and friends), and one is pure ramp aggro (infinite friendly draw replaced by mindstorm crown and grafted skullcap). I think I'll find space in the ramp aggro and stax heavy versions for cauldron.
Blitz - we play big games(usually 6 -10 players) in my neck of the woods. Not everyone is a great judge of threat level - and (I personally find that) something like Predator, Flagship gets you targeted or gets removed quickly. Kanzashi can sit out there - and barring board wipes - it'll be there all game. Odds are an opponent will always have something better to destroy than the kanzashi.
Also - I've had to sorta adapt to my local shops that tend to be more casual. Heavy combo and really competitive decks tend to get shunned (or gang-targeted by 7 people)after a few games. If I was playing against strangers, there'd probably be some more aggressive choices I'd make for the deck.
@burntgerbil
i dont know about you but my karn deck is my all time favorite deck. ive fine tuned as much as possible and it went from being a deck with nothing but mana rocks and karn to use them to attack and with panoramas due to the lack of non basics that tapped for colorless to an all out every game combo kill or attacking with akroma's memorial and several other fliers. i was wondering if you'd be offended if i posted my list at some point. id keep it in a spoiler so as not to take up too much room.
I don't mind at all ! I'll even link to it in the front page if possible.
This deck really tries to emphasize the fun aspects of EDH. If you're looking to win every game quickly, it's a better bet to run Sharuum or the blue coldsnap artifacty guy.
It's good to know other people that share the same mindset. I'm still planning on slapping in a codex shredder and giving the rogue's passage a try.
well unfortunately this deck is not fun for opponents. and the problem is almost every combo revolves around karn so i cant change generals. i usually play really janky edh decks otherwise because i know the karn deck can become oppressive and i never really play more than on match with it in a nite to keep friends lol. i just couldn't help with all the potential there was no way i could keep from putting together the most insane combo stacks i could think of. i know its really against the spirit of edh but i couldn't help but "splurge" so to speak, at least once.
Not fun for opponents ? It's all relative, I guess. My gang doesn't seem to take much umbrage to me running this pile. It could be better, it could be worse.
Couldn't he just one-shot you with rafiq the next turn, after you've only laid one land ? Am I missing something that everyone shuffles & starts over ? I though it was just you while everyone else keeps all the stuff they have (that likely just killed you) out.
Yes, he could have... but the Kaalia at my table decided to Hollowed Burial (His Kaalia had already been tucked and Rafiq was getting stupid). I never really recovered... but it was good stuff.
The main point of the story was that it is hilarious to actually see peoples face when it goes off... yeah... I'm way behind... but at least I'm no longer a threat and still alive.
C'mon RtR... gimme some colorless artifact Hexproofing.
You want a colorless artifact that gives Hexproof? Similar to Swiftfoot Boots, or in mass quantity?
In my dreams it's just like the Darksteel Forge... but for Hexproof instead of Indestructible.
The only weakness, aside from fliers, that I've seen so far is the ability to remove my stuff by exiling, i.e. Return to Dust.
As I've tweaked my Karn towards a bit more combo-centric build, nothing sucks worse than having my Forge removed, or somebody copying my Forge when I have the Latice out.
If I they don't make something (and I'm willing to take spot-Hexproof like you mentioned... as long as it can target creature and non-creature artifacts) in RtR I may have to move Karn into the 99 and go back to running Hannah, Ship's Navigator just for Hanna's Custody and similar cards.
I know shattering spree isnt as prevalent as the blue bounce and white exiling that hurts us the most. Having an artifact that says
"Cards may not be returned to their owner's hand from the battlefield"
is right up there on my list of dream cards. Right next to the artifact that says:
"Players invert their libraries
(To invert your library, you flip your library upside down. If this is the first time you've inverted your library, the top card should be face up.)"
As a Norin pilot, I'm very familiar with Shattering Spree... but yes, you could. I mean, this deck has immense protection from destroy effects, and enough recursion that it doesn't matter if it does get sent to the GY... it's getting back my key pieces. I put the Claws of Gix in my build just to be able to save key pieces if needs be... problems is I never am able to get to it fast enough.
You know what... as a realist that knows that they'll never print an artifact that gives artifacts Hexproof... I'd gladly take the one you came up with. Having a permanent out that makes it impossible to bounce other arts would be awesome (might screw with Erratic Portal though).
Explain the inversion idea a little more in depth for me though. You basically want a Future Sight for arts, if I'm reading you right? (I, too, would kill for a "play with top card revealed" artifact)
It'd have cool interactions with scroll rack, top, top-of-the-deck-tutors additionally, miracles would be more obvious.
Don't misunderstand me I see that you want the whole deck inverted so that all cards are technically face up... I still maintain that it is technically a Future Sight type of effect as you play with the top card showing...
It most certainly would be awesome... SDT'ing would be a breeze, if not a little too revealing... and you could possibly save yourself from a Tunnel Vision (if the inversion spell/effect is instant) or recover Silver-butt from a tuck.
i dont think this works...... the springack pasture becomes a 0/0 creature and dies... no untapping it. youd have to voltaic key rings of bright hearth+infinite mana.....
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
Here's what I posted:
Pasture : Huh. I wrote that years ago. I know I couldn't be using the volty to untap him (since he'd be a 0/0). it was probably using rings brighthearth and voltaic key (and that got lost in one of the tons of edits I've done). I'm going to look into to this deeper after work and try to remember what I was trying to convey. Note that if that's the case, you could do this with a basalt monolith or Scorched ruins, a voltaic key, rings of brighhearth, the lattice and a springjack pasture. No Karn required !
I'm planning on going through and doing a full thorough update after RTR comes out. This revision will be included.
karn, silver golem
maze of ith fortified with a darksteel garrison
mycosynth lattice
eldrazi monument
akroma's memorial
plus random land
so turn the maze into a creature swing with it and karn. tapped the maze to untap itself indefinitely and turn karn into a 100,000,000/100,000,000
despite the garrisons miniscule value as a combo card it will not be added into my version as much as i would like to. you can also go with the deserted temple scorched ruins rings of brightheath darksteel garrison + creature.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
Edit:
Codex Shredder looks like it just got spoiled. If this is the case, he's probably going to replace the arcbound reclaimer.
Codex Shredder - 1
Artifact
tap: Target player puts the top card of their library into their graveyard
5, tap: Sac Codex Shredder: Return target card from your graveyard to your hand
This has several notable interactions if this is the case :
1) The shredder is a win condition against anyone not running eldrazi.
2) The inverse - it's a gy-saver when coupled with scroll rack and your own eldrazi
3) It dodges most removal like a certain top we all know. If I'm not mistaken, the sac is part of the (second ability) cost - so it's in the gy by time you need to choose - making it a legal target to return - right ?
4) This little fella coupled with a Rings of Brighthearth seems very good if you've got the gas for it.
5) This will likely disappoint and catch a few people off guard that use any of the top/scroll rack/Vamp tutor/ponder/miracle shenanigans.
6) Lastly, if your group (foolishly) let you play Chaos Orb (because we all own one, right ?), then this should persuade them to finally make you get rid of the thing.
Clearly, I'm excited.
Rogue's Passage might find a slot in here too - looks like we could couple it with the grafted exoskeleton to get more mileage out of it.
No, you choose targets before costs are paid. That's why, for example, you can use wasteland on itself (choose target, then pay sac cost) and why you can't, conversely, sac codex shredder targeting itself.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
I believe that this is correct, Burnt.
However, with the Salvaging Station out you get two things back, and that's enough to over look this ruling.
And to be fully honest, I simply don't care enough about the minute interactions of the game like that anymore. Even if I could cite the chapter and verse of the rule, I'd likely get laughed out of the game at our table - but it's good to know all possible interactions of how the thing works.
Either way, I'm thinking it's still going to be an incredibly useful new tool in the arsenal and plan on throwing it in there ASAP.
Not really sure what you use ice cauldron for, though.
Mimic vat and ornate zushi are kinda puzzlin' too. Both are kind of narrow for the deck, and zushi needs lattice to resolve.
My current go-to wincon is staff of nin + inf untap effects (construct, rings + key, etc), but that new artifact is gonna be awesome here, no doubt.
http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/ <---- kills spam, fyi.
Please see posts 63-70 for a review on how ice cauldron works. It's a beautiful relic of the way old Magic used to be.
The ornate Kanzashi functions primarily as a wincon. It lets you exile every opponents library when you're in combo mode. In dire straits, it works as a last ditch effort to try and win outta nowhere off your opponents deck.
And zashi is cute, but if you have infinite draw, you can just go and destroy all their perms anyway with predator flagship + mycosynth lattice + karn activations. Or just use a destroy everything effect + make everything you have indestructible artifact. Style points though, I get that, but I'd rather avoid being the target for the rest of eternity =3
Karn's combo is rather slow compared the other combos in the format. It's basically the same speed, or slightly slower, than azami, but with stax pieces instead of permission. I have multiple configurations of this deck that I put together on a whim. One is pure combo (utility + draw + mana), one is stax heavy (skimps on mana rocks and the more ridiculous draws), one is reanimator stax (myr welder and friends), and one is pure ramp aggro (infinite friendly draw replaced by mindstorm crown and grafted skullcap). I think I'll find space in the ramp aggro and stax heavy versions for cauldron.
http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/ <---- kills spam, fyi.
Also - I've had to sorta adapt to my local shops that tend to be more casual. Heavy combo and really competitive decks tend to get shunned (or gang-targeted by 7 people)after a few games. If I was playing against strangers, there'd probably be some more aggressive choices I'd make for the deck.
i dont know about you but my karn deck is my all time favorite deck. ive fine tuned as much as possible and it went from being a deck with nothing but mana rocks and karn to use them to attack and with panoramas due to the lack of non basics that tapped for colorless to an all out every game combo kill or attacking with akroma's memorial and several other fliers. i was wondering if you'd be offended if i posted my list at some point. id keep it in a spoiler so as not to take up too much room.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
This deck really tries to emphasize the fun aspects of EDH. If you're looking to win every game quickly, it's a better bet to run Sharuum or the blue coldsnap artifacty guy.
It's good to know other people that share the same mindset. I'm still planning on slapping in a codex shredder and giving the rogue's passage a try.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
General:
Creatures:
Artifacts:
Sorceries:
Lands:
Ramp
Just Generally "Good" Cards
Protection (and yes i always use protection)
What i use after my Combo
Draw/Tutor
The "Combo cards"
And by the way when i said "this deck" wasnt fun for opponents i was talking about mine not yours. sorry for the confusion man.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
Also - remind all of us of what your primary strategies are (if they aren't obvious from your breakdown).