What i use after my Combo
so this one is a mana dump and i animate all my artfacts and make them million/million creatures once i produce infinite mana. Golem Artisan
instant win with infinite mana. Goblin Cannon
exiles all creatures and artifacts that i turn into creatures with the right combination of cards. Helvault
The "Combo cards"
if theres a combo in this deck it cannot be achived without one of the following cards
Arcbound ravager
so sol ring/mana vault plus salvaging station and karn plus this is infinite mana.
it can be used with salvaging voltaic key to sac and untap an artifact multiple times producing infinite
Toymaker
another karn always useful. this one can achieve all the combos but its worth its slot.
Heartstone
this with karn and basalt monolith is infinite.
this with any artifact that tapps for 3 and umbral mantle on it and karn to animate it of course because the mantle give the creature the ability.
this with any artifact that taps for 2 voltaic construct and karn.
Rings of Brighthearth
this has milions of uses..... i couldnt list them all but ill mention a few.
basalt monolith+this.
everflowing chalice for 4 voltaic key plus this.
deserted temple, scorched ruins plus this.
voltaic key, doubling cube plus suffient maa plus this.
grim monolith karn heartstone plus this.
sensei's divining top plus this can draw you cards until you run out of mana.
Umbral Mantle
this with a tap for 3 and karn makes it a million million.
this on a doubling cube.
this on anything that taps for 3 plus karn plus heartstone as mentioned earlier is infinite.
Myr Welder
cleans up the sloppy seconds. read other combos and just add those card texts to this dude.
Krark-Clan Ironworks
same combos as ravager.
semblance anvil sculpting steel this and spine of ish sha is infinite mana.
same as above with cloud key instead of anvil destroy all permanents.
Dross Scorpion
reall narrow use truley but having several effects that only get creatures makes this good here because its a three card combo with 2 creatures. anything that taps for 3 plus pentavus.
Voltaic contruct
the simplest combo in the entire deck (almost) karn plus this plus an artifact that tapps for 3.
any combos mentioned before with it (see heartstone)
Salvaging Station
this karn and mana crypt.
this karn voltaic key sac outlet plus a tapp for 3.
this sac outlet and sol ring or mana vault plus karn.
Pentavus
this dross scorpion plus atap for 3.
this doubling cube clock of omens.
this everflowing chalice for 5 (lol) and clock of omens.
beyond combo cards you will have to ask. and there are more combos just cant think of them all at the moment.
and all card choices are made for the betterment of the deck. everything is chosen strictly on whether i think its best for the deck or not. without cost consideration and without local playgroup consideration.
That's exactly what I was looking for - when someone else comes along and reads your list, you'll preemptively have answered their first couple of questions. Some of those interactions are new to me and I'll be considering some of it for my list.
as im always making changes i was fish bowling yesterday and realized a few decent intractions. i need to make room for su chi and junk diver. junk diver plus myr retriever plus krark-clan ironworks creates a loop. junk diver or the myr with scarecrone hearstone mycosynth golem krark-clan dross scorpion (lol). su chi dross scorpion sac outlet scarecrone. su chi krark clan nim deathmantle of course. dross scorpion kark-clan nim deathmantle plus something that tapps for 3. rings of birhgthearth su chi nim deathmantle plus sac outlet.
a quick ruling note:
1/1/2011: Nim Deathmantle's second ability may return a card it can't equip to the battlefield. For example, if a nontoken artifact that's become a creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, Nim Deathmantle's second ability triggers. If you pay {4} as it resolves, you'll return that card to the battlefield. However, Nim Deathmantle can't equip it, so Nim Deathmantle remains attached to whatever it was already equipping (or, if it was unattached, it remains so). The same is true if a nontoken creature with protection from artifacts is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, for example.
lets talk about nim deathmantle
so any artifact that tapps for 3 krark clan and karn.
the same as the above combo add in dross scorpion.
kark clan mana crypt myr retriever or junk diver deathmantle plus dross scorpion.
pentavus remove 4 counters make 4 creatures sac to krark clan make 8 mana sac pentavus to krark-clan use deathmantle rinse wash and repeat.
doubling cube karn nim deathmantle sac outlet.
mindslaver karn nim deathmantle.
copper gnomes sacrifice put into play spine deathmantle the gnomes rings of brighthearth the deathmantles ability have heartstone sac the spine return to hand rinse wash and repeat destroy everything.
not sue if that top ne works. it work in my mind then when i tried to demonstrate it my mind blew up.
so a few youre running but im not.
mirror works plus junk diver or myr retriever trigger on the stack sac to krark clan then loop. with scorpion out untap stuff with semblance anvil out make mana or cloud key or mycosynth.
mimic vat
a quick ruling:
1/1/2011: The token created by the second ability will be a copy of whatever card is exiled with Mimic Vat at the time the ability resolves. This might not be the same card that was exiled with Mimic Vat at the time the ability was activated. It also might not be a creature card.
so mimic vat with dross scorpion make a copy sac something untap make a copy so now 2 scorpions out use mana crypt turn it into a creature it dies goes on the mimic vat one trigger untaps the vat one trigger untaps a tap for 3 artifact.
Very detailed breakdown. It's quite the combo-riffic list you've assembled there. If you're noticing that things get tough when playing this against your pals, it's probably becoming less of your normal commander game and more of "Lets beat up the silver dude before he kills all of us !"
I've experienced this firsthand over time. I try and include a few cards that are fun and interactive - little things here and there. Nova Pentacle, erratic portal and Staff of Nin come to mind.
In my deck, a card has to stand on it's own (Except for like, Rings). It's all a matter of taste and personal playstyle.
lol well i dont ever play it more than once in a sitting. then i switch to my saproling deck. which is terribad so as to have fun myself with my funguses but let other plays have fun as well.
I'm quite the opposite. Karador and Animar are probably better-tuned decks. Karn is for when I want to kick back and have some real fun.
I'm a little bummed that he didn't get any cooler stuff out of RTR, though.
It's a set focused on color pairs, so it's not going to be a Mirrodin or Scars of Mirrodin level block for him (or even a regular block with decent artifacts).
Honestly im glad he didnt get much. this deck list i run is tightly tuned and i cant fit in much more. i actually need to make room for mimic vat, nim deathmantle, and junk diver.
Just put together a Karn deck today. Only played it 1v1 against friend's Azami, Lady of Scrolls deck so far, but itching to play it multiplayer. It frankly wasn't that fun 1v1 (at least for my friend) because I dominated so completely. This deck is absurd.
I think my main challenge is to make this deck not be "un-fun" for others to play against. I used to play MUD in Vintage tournaments so my immediate instinct is to lock everyone out and just be a dick, but that's not really what EDH is about...open to suggestions.
Quick notes -
Playing in a 4 way this past weekend, I got hit hard with Vandalblast with Myr Turbine, unwinding clock, Thran Dynamo, witchbane orb, Staff of Nin and a couple of of others on the table. I was blown out and devastated, but I top-decked a trading post, got my matrix, then my clock back while fending off a 23/23 taurean mauler and powered out a win before they could stop me.
As common as artifact sweepers are, recursion is highly prized in this deck.
I predict that these will be nicknamed "Infinity Gauntlets" by many who play them in here. My initial overview shows me that they'll copy any of the untap abilities of Basalt Monolith and Grim Monolith (once one of those cards is animated by Karn and equipped with the bracers, of course). This yields a 2 card (+ commander) infinite colorless mana combo.
[To explain, the play should go as follows
Animate the artifact
Equip Bracers
Tap artifact for mana (not vital to process)
Use artifact's untap ability
Bracers put copy of ability on the stack
allow copied ability to resolve - untap
Tap artifact for mana while original effect still on the stack
original untap effect resolves
tap artifact again for mana ]
You should net 2 or 3 colorless per cycle of this and you can repeat as desired.
There's a ton of other cool things that look possible, but a new outlet for infinite mana is definitely always a good thing.
Note that this is the same effect as going infinite with Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighhearth - you won't have infinite artifact untaps (unless you dig out a voltaic key), so you need to find something of value to do with all that mana - ideally you want to memory jar, tower of fortunes,skyship weatherlight or, I guess maybe Goblin Cannon with that mana. And those things can all wear the Illusionist's Bracers before use also - just don't forget that all your animated artifacts will have summoning sickness if you just played them.
Edit: yeah...if you equip the memory jar with the bracers, you should probably have a shimmer myr in play first.
I am strongly lobbying for these guys to come off the banned list - for purely selfish reasons, obviously. I'd like to meaningly contribute to the discussion for their unbanning - and I feel that genuine play research would be the best way to do that.
So hang on tight and stay tuned, gang. This'll be a wild ride.
@flymomo - yeah, I did. I ran it for a long time. I wasn't happy with it. It usually either eats removal. Or kills my stuff. It also makes me a giant target - like I'm actually doing things that affect the game instead of my normal game plan of playing innocuous artifacts no one has ever heard of.
It just scares too many people when it hits play and usually wrecks me the most, in my opinion.
Hey thanks! I figured I kinda owed it to everyone since I've been keeping the deck and the list active for awhile now (it's my baby). If my testing of metalworker and staff prove correct and they get nudged off the banned list, then I predict a whooole lotta interest being generated.
You could go for massive myr piles (with coat of arms and bubble matrix)
Or infect with big creatures and Grafted Exoskeleton
Or Stax with...well, all the cards in traditional stax.
Make sure to include the big mana artifacts that are pretty cheap - Mana Vault, Basalt monolith, Thran dynamo, Gilded lotus, Dreamstone Hedron.
But by far, most of the lands are pretty obtainable. Most of the time they just tap for mana, so they are mostly interchangable with little loss of the deck's overall playability.
Draft up a list of some stuff and give us a look at what you have.
I would really appreciate if you could make a budget list of cards I should buy to make this deck worthwhile as a start.
How good would a Karn deck be without infinite combos?
It'll be a lot of fun, I can testify to that.
It's kind of hard to tell from the random list. Let's assume you will get all the cards you have listed. Break your list down by type so we can know how many cards we will need - the lands are going to be the ones you will definitely need to buy. Everything else can fall in as you come across them.
Alrght, yove got some decent filler, but you're going to need about 30 more lands. Desert, quicksand, rogue's passage, mishra's factory, urza's factory, mystifying maze blasted landscape, zoetic cavern, tectonic edge and 20-ish more should be pretty simple to round up.
Some solid & cheap staples to consider are, myr battlesphere, krark clan ironworks, erratic portal, basalt monolith, darksteel plate & platinum angel and others (to be continued).
EDIT: Cheap Things to acquire
Check my Construction Notes Section (Near the bottom of the first post in this thread) for some ideas - most of those cards that easily fit in your budget.
so this one is a mana dump and i animate all my artfacts and make them million/million creatures once i produce infinite mana. Golem Artisan
instant win with infinite mana. Goblin Cannon
exiles all creatures and artifacts that i turn into creatures with the right combination of cards. Helvault
The "Combo cards"
if theres a combo in this deck it cannot be achived without one of the following cards
Arcbound ravager
so sol ring/mana vault plus salvaging station and karn plus this is infinite mana.
it can be used with salvaging voltaic key to sac and untap an artifact multiple times producing infinite
Toymaker
another karn always useful. this one can achieve all the combos but its worth its slot.
Heartstone
this with karn and basalt monolith is infinite.
this with any artifact that tapps for 3 and umbral mantle on it and karn to animate it of course because the mantle give the creature the ability.
this with any artifact that taps for 2 voltaic construct and karn.
Rings of Brighthearth
this has milions of uses..... i couldnt list them all but ill mention a few.
basalt monolith+this.
everflowing chalice for 4 voltaic key plus this.
deserted temple, scorched ruins plus this.
voltaic key, doubling cube plus suffient maa plus this.
grim monolith karn heartstone plus this.
sensei's divining top plus this can draw you cards until you run out of mana.
Umbral Mantle
this with a tap for 3 and karn makes it a million million.
this on a doubling cube.
this on anything that taps for 3 plus karn plus heartstone as mentioned earlier is infinite.
Myr Welder
cleans up the sloppy seconds. read other combos and just add those card texts to this dude.
Krark-Clan Ironworks
same combos as ravager.
semblance anvil sculpting steel this and spine of ish sha is infinite mana.
same as above with cloud key instead of anvil destroy all permanents.
Dross Scorpion
reall narrow use truley but having several effects that only get creatures makes this good here because its a three card combo with 2 creatures. anything that taps for 3 plus pentavus.
Voltaic contruct
the simplest combo in the entire deck (almost) karn plus this plus an artifact that tapps for 3.
any combos mentioned before with it (see heartstone)
Salvaging Station
this karn and mana crypt.
this karn voltaic key sac outlet plus a tapp for 3.
this sac outlet and sol ring or mana vault plus karn.
Pentavus
this dross scorpion plus atap for 3.
this doubling cube clock of omens.
this everflowing chalice for 5 (lol) and clock of omens.
beyond combo cards you will have to ask. and there are more combos just cant think of them all at the moment.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
Thanks again for sharing !
a quick ruling note:
1/1/2011: Nim Deathmantle's second ability may return a card it can't equip to the battlefield. For example, if a nontoken artifact that's become a creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, Nim Deathmantle's second ability triggers. If you pay {4} as it resolves, you'll return that card to the battlefield. However, Nim Deathmantle can't equip it, so Nim Deathmantle remains attached to whatever it was already equipping (or, if it was unattached, it remains so). The same is true if a nontoken creature with protection from artifacts is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, for example.
lets talk about nim deathmantle
so any artifact that tapps for 3 krark clan and karn.
the same as the above combo add in dross scorpion.
kark clan mana crypt myr retriever or junk diver deathmantle plus dross scorpion.
pentavus remove 4 counters make 4 creatures sac to krark clan make 8 mana sac pentavus to krark-clan use deathmantle rinse wash and repeat.
doubling cube karn nim deathmantle sac outlet.
mindslaver karn nim deathmantle.
copper gnomes sacrifice put into play spine deathmantle the gnomes rings of brighthearth the deathmantles ability have heartstone sac the spine return to hand rinse wash and repeat destroy everything.
not sue if that top ne works. it work in my mind then when i tried to demonstrate it my mind blew up.
so a few youre running but im not.
mirror works plus junk diver or myr retriever trigger on the stack sac to krark clan then loop. with scorpion out untap stuff with semblance anvil out make mana or cloud key or mycosynth.
mimic vat
a quick ruling:
1/1/2011: The token created by the second ability will be a copy of whatever card is exiled with Mimic Vat at the time the ability resolves. This might not be the same card that was exiled with Mimic Vat at the time the ability was activated. It also might not be a creature card.
so mimic vat with dross scorpion make a copy sac something untap make a copy so now 2 scorpions out use mana crypt turn it into a creature it dies goes on the mimic vat one trigger untaps the vat one trigger untaps a tap for 3 artifact.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
I've experienced this firsthand over time. I try and include a few cards that are fun and interactive - little things here and there. Nova Pentacle, erratic portal and Staff of Nin come to mind.
In my deck, a card has to stand on it's own (Except for like, Rings). It's all a matter of taste and personal playstyle.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
I'm a little bummed that he didn't get any cooler stuff out of RTR, though.
It's a set focused on color pairs, so it's not going to be a Mirrodin or Scars of Mirrodin level block for him (or even a regular block with decent artifacts).
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Honestly im glad he didnt get much. this deck list i run is tightly tuned and i cant fit in much more. i actually need to make room for mimic vat, nim deathmantle, and junk diver.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
Favorite combo was Karn + Voltaic Construct + Basalt Monolith + Oblivion Stone to destroy all of opponent's permanents.
I think my main challenge is to make this deck not be "un-fun" for others to play against. I used to play MUD in Vintage tournaments so my immediate instinct is to lock everyone out and just be a dick, but that's not really what EDH is about...open to suggestions.
5 Karn, Silver Golem
//Mana Artifacts/Acceleration (14)
3 Basalt Monolith
5 Blinkmoth Urn
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Cloud Key
2 Grim Monolith
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
0 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
2 Mind Stone
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Semblance Anvil
1 Sol Ring
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Worn Powerstone
//Creatures (11)
6 Duplicant
10 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
5 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
11 Mycosynth Golem
7 Myr Battlesphere
3 Scarecrone
6 Triskelion
11 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Voltaic Construct
//Utility (12)
7 Akroma's Memorial
4 Clock of Omens
3 Crucible of Worlds
9 Darksteel Forge
4 Ice Cauldron
5 Mirrorworks
6 Mycosynth Lattice
4 Nim Deathmantle
3 Sculpting Steel
4 Tawnos's Coffin
4 Unwinding Clock
1 Voltaic Key
0 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Crystal Ball
0 Eye of Ugin
2 Howling Mine
5 Memory Jar
5 Mind's Eye
5 Ornate Kanzashi
2 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Skyship Weatherlight
6 Staff of Nin
8 Tower of Fortunes
//Removal/Control (14)
7 All Is Dust
7 Karn Liberated
4 Erratic Portal
0 Maze of Ith
1 Meekstone
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Null Brooch
3 Oblivion Stone
2 Relic Barrier
7 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Static Orb
0 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Torpor Orb
3 Trinisphere
2 Winter Orb
//Land (36)
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Blasted Landscape
0 Blinkmoth Nexus
0 Blinkmoth Well
0 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
0 Buried Ruin
0 Cloudpost
0 Crystal Vein
0 Darksteel Citadel
0 Deserted Temple
0 Dust Bowl
0 Eldrazi Temple
0 Glimmerpost
0 Haunted Fengraf
0 Homeward Path
0 Inkmoth Nexus
0 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
0 Mishra's Factory
0 Mishra's Workshop
0 Mystifying Maze
0 Petrified Field
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Rishadan Port
0 Scorched Ruins
0 Springjack Pasture
0 Strip Mine
0 Temple of the False God
0 Tower of the Magistrate
0 Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Urza's Mine
0 Urza's Power Plant
0 Urza's Tower
0 Vesuva
0 Wasteland
0 Zoetic Cavern
I'm still toying around with the following:
Rogue's Passage
I'm also really liking the oversized Karn. I can't help but feel like Wizards kinda did that one for me and me alone (jus' kidding !). Thanks, gang !
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you stick one in your mouth and light it on fire.
As it stands, I just can't find room for the duplicant but Rogue's Passage and Codex Shredder have likely found homes for the time being.
Playing in a 4 way this past weekend, I got hit hard with Vandalblast with Myr Turbine, unwinding clock, Thran Dynamo, witchbane orb, Staff of Nin and a couple of of others on the table. I was blown out and devastated, but I top-decked a trading post, got my matrix, then my clock back while fending off a 23/23 taurean mauler and powered out a win before they could stop me.
As common as artifact sweepers are, recursion is highly prized in this deck.
I predict that these will be nicknamed "Infinity Gauntlets" by many who play them in here. My initial overview shows me that they'll copy any of the untap abilities of Basalt Monolith and Grim Monolith (once one of those cards is animated by Karn and equipped with the bracers, of course). This yields a 2 card (+ commander) infinite colorless mana combo.
[To explain, the play should go as follows
Animate the artifact
Equip Bracers
Tap artifact for mana (not vital to process)
Use artifact's untap ability
Bracers put copy of ability on the stack
allow copied ability to resolve - untap
Tap artifact for mana while original effect still on the stack
original untap effect resolves
tap artifact again for mana ]
You should net 2 or 3 colorless per cycle of this and you can repeat as desired.
There's a ton of other cool things that look possible, but a new outlet for infinite mana is definitely always a good thing.
Note that this is the same effect as going infinite with Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighhearth - you won't have infinite artifact untaps (unless you dig out a voltaic key), so you need to find something of value to do with all that mana - ideally you want to memory jar, tower of fortunes,skyship weatherlight or, I guess maybe Goblin Cannon with that mana. And those things can all wear the Illusionist's Bracers before use also - just don't forget that all your animated artifacts will have summoning sickness if you just played them.
Edit: yeah...if you equip the memory jar with the bracers, you should probably have a shimmer myr in play first.
I am strongly lobbying for these guys to come off the banned list - for purely selfish reasons, obviously. I'd like to meaningly contribute to the discussion for their unbanning - and I feel that genuine play research would be the best way to do that.
So hang on tight and stay tuned, gang. This'll be a wild ride.
It just scares too many people when it hits play and usually wrecks me the most, in my opinion.
Ok here's what I would do:
Focus on your best interactions to avoid being a target and get aggro.
Consider using as a base:
Karn
- Mycosynth Lattice
- Clock of Omens
- Myr Turbine
- Myr Battlesphere
- Nim Deathmantle
- Grafted Exoskeleton
You could go for massive myr piles (with coat of arms and bubble matrix)Or infect with big creatures and Grafted Exoskeleton
Or Stax with...well, all the cards in traditional stax.
Make sure to include the big mana artifacts that are pretty cheap - Mana Vault, Basalt monolith, Thran dynamo, Gilded lotus, Dreamstone Hedron.
But by far, most of the lands are pretty obtainable. Most of the time they just tap for mana, so they are mostly interchangable with little loss of the deck's overall playability.
Draft up a list of some stuff and give us a look at what you have.
It'll be a lot of fun, I can testify to that.
It's kind of hard to tell from the random list. Let's assume you will get all the cards you have listed. Break your list down by type so we can know how many cards we will need - the lands are going to be the ones you will definitely need to buy. Everything else can fall in as you come across them.
Some solid & cheap staples to consider are, myr battlesphere, krark clan ironworks, erratic portal, basalt monolith, darksteel plate & platinum angel and others (to be continued).
EDIT: Cheap Things to acquire
Here's 34 lands you can probably find cheaply:
- Dread statuary
- Glimmerpost
- Blinkmoth Well
- Cloudpost
- Darksteel Citadel
- Desert
- Blasted Landscape
- Gargoyle Castle
- Stalking Stones
- Crystal Vein
- Gemstone Caverns
- Seraph Sanctuary
- Shimmering Grotto
- Petrified Field
- Reflecting Pool
- Mouth of Ronom
- Springjack Pasture
- Swarmyard
- Tarnished Citadel
- Tendo Ice Bridge
- Scrying Sheets
- Glacial Chasm
- Haunted Fengraf
- Mystifying Maze
- Phyrexia's Core
- Quicksand
- Rogue's Passage
- Scorched Ruins
- Thespian's Stage
- Tectonic Edge
- Urza's Factory
- Urza's Mine
- Urza's Power Plant
- Urza's Tower
- Zoetic Cavern
Here's some good stuff I'd consider trying to find. It should be pretty cheap also:Check my Construction Notes Section (Near the bottom of the first post in this thread) for some ideas - most of those cards that easily fit in your budget.