The most notable change is the inclusion of several of the infinite combos. Mind Over Matter, Curiosity, and Ophidian Eye. I know a lot of you will balk at this, but in testing, their sheer power (although situational) is just so hard to match. Turn 3 and 4 wins are much more likely. It also means Niv is cast A LOT more often which is a bonus.
I am however glad I waited this long to include them. The result of waiting is that the deck IS NOT dependent on those combos to win and is very powerful without them. The infinite combos serve to make my existing win conditions all that much more spectacular.
That said, I am very very very very eager for Oct to roll around.
The main justification was I'm up against a lot of targeted removal. Hasn't made a difference keeping Niv out and yeah, shroud really conflicts with my combos.
I'm on the fence with Mana Flare. If I had some sort of land accell it could be a lot better. Not so great with Sunder though.
Good point, it's a risky move. Group hug card that can backfire unless I win that turn. All Wort needs is to get double mana to Banefire and conspire it a bunch of times.
It just seems like something that would make people hate playing against my deck even more without helping me win sooner.
I honestly put it in there solely to hose the R/G Wort, the Raidmother and Mimeo decks at my table. If those deck hit enough mana, you'll receive a Banefire to the dome conspired enough for lethal or Tooth and Nail for an infinite combo, respectively.
Turn 6-7 if I live long enough these days. Niv gets a lot of hate, probably more than when I played Jhoira. I even eat T1 Strip Mines. My usual table is very cutthroat.
Fact or Fiction has been great with Niv! It digs for five, and with this deck, it doesn't matter how they're separated. You'll always grab what you need.
I was waiting on a Stroke of Genius, but yeah, this seems like a good compromise. I'll take out Boots.
In regards to your new decklist...
Surprising changes, with the Faithless Looting and the other cheap draw/discard spells. Though, I'm far more surprised to see the extra turn spells! I've won using Time Stop, an excellent unexpected time walk, so many times, better extra turn spells should have been obvious. Turnabout is just money combined with Savor the Moment.
As for the infinite combos, I would have balked months ago, but that all changed. Speaking of infinite combos, Mind Over Matter and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth are great together. Don't deck yourself and you're sure to kill everyone. I've even won by hard casting Eldrazi and Time Stopping their next turn when they tap out to kill me.
Oh, and totally agree with Fabricate. My friends didn't understand why I ran that instead of Trinket Mage either, until I fished for Oblivion Stone.
Surprising changes, with the Faithless Looting and the other cheap draw/discard spells.
Those have really been awesome for me actually - giving me that little extra boost of speed.
Though, I'm far more surprised to see the extra turn spells! I've won using Time Stop, an excellent unexpected time walk, so many times, better extra turn spells should have been obvious.
I'll give Time Stop another go. Swapped for Walk the Aeons.
Wow, I'm not sure how Turnabout crawled out of my deck. Putting it back in, lol!
I'm working on getting this deck back to official primer status. I hadn't realized they'd took down all the old primers. I'm glad there's a bit more standardization though.
Those have really been awesome for me actually - giving me that little extra boost of speed.
Love the cheapies! Definitely going to try some of these out in my deck. I only just put Brainstorm in because of Miracle, but with Library of Leng, I would just discard to my library. Oh, man.
I put together a very similar list aside from not running curiosity/eye. How many players are usually in your games? I am planning on playing my deck with friends this weekend and it will be 6 player games. I have good feelings about the deck, just wondering if there are cards I should consider from anyone's opinion when you get upwards of having to beat 2-3 opponents.
I typically play against 3 opponents. My guess would be that more players at the table means playing the deck a little more slowly so as not to paint a big target on Niv's face. 1 vs 5 doesn't sound like the best odds to me.
I typically play against 3 opponents. My guess would be that more players at the table means playing the deck a little more slowly so as not to paint a big target on Niv's face. 1 vs 5 doesn't sound like the best odds to me.
That seems fine with me... I like a challenge.. Digging for something like comet storm and inner fire and being able to copy fire a few times can kill a handful of opponents and is a pretty "classy" way to win in my book...
Thanks, yeah, I like that combo as well. But realistically, with several other blue players at the table, it's going to be a lot more difficult to combo out like that. I've never played a 6 player game though so I can't say I'm speaking from experience. It just seems more likely that someone is holding a counter.
I'm currently testing cards from RtR and Izzet vs Golgari. I want to give them a solid month of play testing before adding any to the primer.
Epic Experiment - My gut feeling is that this is not going to make the cut. It seems very much like a win-more card since the threshold of mana that it takes to be effective is pretty high and I could probably be casting other more effective things with that mana.
Goblin Electromancer - I tend to cast a lot of spells per turn and this would help make that a lot more efficient. It's a permanent and a creature no less (prone to removal) but speed is everything.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - actually a candidate for replacing Firemind. More testing will tell. He's an excellent mana sink. He can actually attack in a pinch and still draw cards. He can draw much more cards by himself.
Cyclonic Rift - seems like a win condition in itself. Will probably go in for All is Dust The best part is that it's still useful if you don't have 6U.
Nivix Guildmage - A little weak IMO (creature), but still gonna give him a go.
Counterflux - This is like an awesome mutant child of Last Word and Mindbreak Trap. Very tasteful and useful against other combo/control decks.
Vandalblast - Better that Shattering Spree? In Multiplayer I'm guessing that it is since there is typically more artifacts on the table than I have red mana for, in more competitive games especially.
[CARD]
Chromatic Lantern[/CARD] - The ultimate color fixer? Maybe. It's not exactly explosive ramp, but I love that it turns my colorless utility lands into Volcanic Islands.
Wouldn't Helm of Awakening be better than Goblin Electromancer since it has the same cc and can also reduce the cost of your artifacts and Niv or do you think allowing your opponents to cast things at a reduced cost is too much of a drawback?
I've considered using Helm. This deck casts a lot more spells per turn than most decks, so I think I'd be coming out on top with it. (The benefit would be measured by how much mana YOU save by casting it as opposed to how much your opponents save.)
How has the more expensive ramp been working for you (Thran Dynamo, Basalt Monolith, and Egerflowing Chalice). I feel like they are either amazing or awful. I either ramp quickly and can play them early or they sit in my hand and by time I can play them they have very little effect on the game. If our goal is to win quickly we probably want ramp that allows for it every game instead of situational ramp. I feel the same about Chalice. It's best when you have a lot of mana for it and you need a hand of a lot to ramp to make it worth it. I think I might try Helm, Chromatic Lantern, and maybe Fellwar Stone or Darksteel Ingot.
The three that you mentioned are inferior to the rest in the deck for sure, but you have to take into account how much mana you are getting out of them for the input. Darksteel Ingot is really inefficient. You pay 3 for one of any color where Thran Dynamo gets you 3 for 4. The reason things like Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are so valuable is because they actually net you mana the turn they come out.
@Rowan the list looks really good, since you got so much ramp/disruption curious on how the list does 1 vs 1? I really don't see the need to change anything for either multi or 1vs1.
Yeah. I prefer using Firemind as my general. Mostly because of the infinite combos. Dracogenius is alright though, I just can't win quite as quickly with him.
Quote from Jake556 »
@Rowan the list looks really good, since you got so much ramp/disruption curious on how the list does 1 vs 1? I really don't see the need to change anything for either multi or 1vs1.
The deck works just about the same 1v1 as in multiplayer. There aren't really any cards that I would swap out either way.
@Rowan Just an idea obviously you know way more than i do about Niv.
Curious if you have thought about adding Power Artifact since your running Grim Monolith? It is tutorable plus your already running 2/3 of the kill combo. Infinite colorless helps out with Eldrazi cost if you wanted to add them. Plus it's instant death with Stroke Of Genies/Blue Sun's Zenith just a thought. If nothing else it's a backup answer if something happens to Niv.
That's definitely a possibility. It also works with Basalt Monolith My only worry is that Power Artifact is a dead draw without Grim Monolith. The same could be said for the infinite Niv combos, but Niv is always "in your hand" at least.
That's definitely a possibility. It also works with Basalt Monolith My only worry is that Power Artifact is a dead draw without Grim Monolith. The same could be said for the infinite Niv combos, but Niv is always "in your hand" at least.
I forgot it works with Basalt Monolith too! I really would consider it. With all of the draw in the deck you are bound to hit 1/2 of this combo, I would probably put Muddle the Mixture back in to find the other half Grim Monolith or Power artifact it is such a powerful combo.
Welp, another month has gone by. Here are some updates:
11/16/2012
-1 All is Dust +1 Cyclonic Rift - Essentially a win condition in itself. The beautiful thing is that Rift is scalable. Even if you don't have 6U, it can still bounce a single permanent.
-1 Everflowing Chalice +1 Izzet Charm - this was a hard choice, but the utility of Izzet Charm is just great. It serves 3 different but equally useful functions despite being just one card.
-1 Pyroblast +1 Temporal Manipulation - Although I love these red counters, they are really only useful in control heavy playgroups. It's usually more beneficial to take an extra turn or three.
-1 Devastation Tide +1 Power Artifact = infinite colorless is useful. Power artifact is tutorable with muddle the mixture. Tide's miracle cost is not easily achieved. The fact that is also bounces your stuff is sometimes regrettable. This is still not a clean cut swap though. Power artifact needs more testing. I don't like that it's a dead draw without the monoliths.
EDIT: Enter The Infinite? WHHAAATT?! Jeez. It's Niv+Curiosity in one spell... with a HORRENDOUS cost. As much as I like it, at such a stratospheric cost, is it too win more? There's always Dream Halls. Seems perfect for Jhoria at least.
So excited about this full art Niv that I wanted to drop this here. The deck is performing well for me, only loss in 5 games with it was from a chaos player swerving my trade secrets to himself and then playing cerebral vortex after we both drew 50 cards
haha ouch. losing at instant speed sucks. Maybe I don't know the whole story, but I would have just drawn my whole deck, that way you'd have access to more counters (FOW or pact if you didn't have any mana open). EOT, if you can't go off that turn just lay down Reliquary Tower. But even I still make mistakes with the deck.
Yeah. In retrospect I could have drawn more cards. I only drew one counter in all those cards, which countered sudden impact. Fair enough that I lost trying to win on turn 3 (I had ramp and dream halls). I also had no idea the chaos player ran those cards so I got caught with my pants down on that one. After that game I stuffed a few more counterspells in
Note that I play in a larger group normally having 5 player games so I have some more permanent hand cycling effects and other cards instead of the cheaper draw cards like faithless looting which you use to draw into combo cards. I have to play a slower game, but my build has been pretty durable
It's an answer to opponent's discard that also lets you keep your entire hand during a wheel effect.
And it cantrips.
EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
Not yet. I'm working on it. A lot of changes.
Hey that's pretty nifty. I'll try it out. Thanks for the suggestion
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Izzet Signet
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Copy Artifact
1 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Shivan Reef
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Vesuva
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tolaria West
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Academy Ruins
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
8 Islands
4 Mountains
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chaos Warp
1 Comet Storm
1 Spiraling Embers
1 All is Dust
1 Devastation Tide
1 Mana Drain
1 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Reiterate
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Twincast
1 Reverberate
1 Ethereal Usher
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Gamble
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Fabricate
1 Faithless Looting
1 Frantic Search
1 Careful Study
1 Mystic Speculation
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Mindmoil
1 Molten Psyche
1 Winds of Change
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Recurring Insight
1 Trade Secrets
1 Thought Reflection
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Curiosity
1 Ophidian Eye
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Dream Halls
1 Inner Fire
1 Turnabout
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Time Warp
1 Walk The Aeons
The most notable change is the inclusion of several of the infinite combos. Mind Over Matter, Curiosity, and Ophidian Eye. I know a lot of you will balk at this, but in testing, their sheer power (although situational) is just so hard to match. Turn 3 and 4 wins are much more likely. It also means Niv is cast A LOT more often which is a bonus.
I am however glad I waited this long to include them. The result of waiting is that the deck IS NOT dependent on those combos to win and is very powerful without them. The infinite combos serve to make my existing win conditions all that much more spectacular.
That said, I am very very very very eager for Oct to roll around.
Cards I'm eying with great interest:
Niv - Mizzet, Dracogenius
Epic Experiment
Izzet Charm
Counterflux
Cyclonic Rift
Goblin Electromancer
Nivix Guildmage
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
The main justification was I'm up against a lot of targeted removal. Hasn't made a difference keeping Niv out and yeah, shroud really conflicts with my combos.
I actually had it go off with Future Sight in play, too. Ridiculous digging!
Good point, it's a risky move. Group hug card that can backfire unless I win that turn. All Wort needs is to get double mana to Banefire and conspire it a bunch of times.
I honestly put it in there solely to hose the R/G Wort, the Raidmother and Mimeo decks at my table. If those deck hit enough mana, you'll receive a Banefire to the dome conspired enough for lethal or Tooth and Nail for an infinite combo, respectively.
Turn 6-7 if I live long enough these days. Niv gets a lot of hate, probably more than when I played Jhoira. I even eat T1 Strip Mines. My usual table is very cutthroat.
Fact or Fiction has been great with Niv! It digs for five, and with this deck, it doesn't matter how they're separated. You'll always grab what you need.
You won't regret it!
I was waiting on a Stroke of Genius, but yeah, this seems like a good compromise. I'll take out Boots.
In regards to your new decklist...
Surprising changes, with the Faithless Looting and the other cheap draw/discard spells. Though, I'm far more surprised to see the extra turn spells! I've won using Time Stop, an excellent unexpected time walk, so many times, better extra turn spells should have been obvious. Turnabout is just money combined with Savor the Moment.
As for the infinite combos, I would have balked months ago, but that all changed. Speaking of infinite combos, Mind Over Matter and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth are great together. Don't deck yourself and you're sure to kill everyone. I've even won by hard casting Eldrazi and Time Stopping their next turn when they tap out to kill me.
Oh, and totally agree with Fabricate. My friends didn't understand why I ran that instead of Trinket Mage either, until I fished for Oblivion Stone.
Those have really been awesome for me actually - giving me that little extra boost of speed.
I'll give Time Stop another go. Swapped for Walk the Aeons.
Wow, I'm not sure how Turnabout crawled out of my deck. Putting it back in, lol!
I'm working on getting this deck back to official primer status. I hadn't realized they'd took down all the old primers. I'm glad there's a bit more standardization though.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Love the cheapies! Definitely going to try some of these out in my deck. I only just put Brainstorm in because of Miracle, but with Library of Leng, I would just discard to my library. Oh, man.
Excited to hear how your changes worked out!
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
That seems fine with me... I like a challenge.. Digging for something like comet storm and inner fire and being able to copy fire a few times can kill a handful of opponents and is a pretty "classy" way to win in my book...
I'm currently testing cards from RtR and Izzet vs Golgari. I want to give them a solid month of play testing before adding any to the primer.
Testing:
Izzet Charm - major utility at an efficient cost
Epic Experiment - My gut feeling is that this is not going to make the cut. It seems very much like a win-more card since the threshold of mana that it takes to be effective is pretty high and I could probably be casting other more effective things with that mana.
Goblin Electromancer - I tend to cast a lot of spells per turn and this would help make that a lot more efficient. It's a permanent and a creature no less (prone to removal) but speed is everything.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - actually a candidate for replacing Firemind. More testing will tell. He's an excellent mana sink. He can actually attack in a pinch and still draw cards. He can draw much more cards by himself.
Cyclonic Rift - seems like a win condition in itself. Will probably go in for All is Dust The best part is that it's still useful if you don't have 6U.
Nivix Guildmage - A little weak IMO (creature), but still gonna give him a go.
Counterflux - This is like an awesome mutant child of Last Word and Mindbreak Trap. Very tasteful and useful against other combo/control decks.
Vandalblast - Better that Shattering Spree? In Multiplayer I'm guessing that it is since there is typically more artifacts on the table than I have red mana for, in more competitive games especially.
[CARD]
Chromatic Lantern[/CARD] - The ultimate color fixer? Maybe. It's not exactly explosive ramp, but I love that it turns my colorless utility lands into Volcanic Islands.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
How has the more expensive ramp been working for you (Thran Dynamo, Basalt Monolith, and Egerflowing Chalice). I feel like they are either amazing or awful. I either ramp quickly and can play them early or they sit in my hand and by time I can play them they have very little effect on the game. If our goal is to win quickly we probably want ramp that allows for it every game instead of situational ramp. I feel the same about Chalice. It's best when you have a lot of mana for it and you need a hand of a lot to ramp to make it worth it. I think I might try Helm, Chromatic Lantern, and maybe Fellwar Stone or Darksteel Ingot.
That said, I may consider Helm of Awakening, or Chromatic Lantern especially in my paper deck.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
Yeah. I prefer using Firemind as my general. Mostly because of the infinite combos. Dracogenius is alright though, I just can't win quite as quickly with him.
The deck works just about the same 1v1 as in multiplayer. There aren't really any cards that I would swap out either way.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Curious if you have thought about adding Power Artifact since your running Grim Monolith? It is tutorable plus your already running 2/3 of the kill combo. Infinite colorless helps out with Eldrazi cost if you wanted to add them. Plus it's instant death with Stroke Of Genies/Blue Sun's Zenith just a thought. If nothing else it's a backup answer if something happens to Niv.
This could also open you up to Beacon Of Tommarows + Planar Portal for infinite turns as well.
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I forgot it works with Basalt Monolith too! I really would consider it. With all of the draw in the deck you are bound to hit 1/2 of this combo, I would probably put Muddle the Mixture back in to find the other half Grim Monolith or Power artifact it is such a powerful combo.
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
11/16/2012
-1 All is Dust +1 Cyclonic Rift - Essentially a win condition in itself. The beautiful thing is that Rift is scalable. Even if you don't have 6U, it can still bounce a single permanent.
-1 Everflowing Chalice +1 Izzet Charm - this was a hard choice, but the utility of Izzet Charm is just great. It serves 3 different but equally useful functions despite being just one card.
-1 Fabricate +1 Time Warp - fabricate just always feels too clunky
-1 Pyroblast +1 Temporal Manipulation - Although I love these red counters, they are really only useful in control heavy playgroups. It's usually more beneficial to take an extra turn or three.
-1 Red Elemental Blast +1 Capture of the Jingzhou
-1 Devastation Tide +1 Power Artifact = infinite colorless is useful. Power artifact is tutorable with muddle the mixture. Tide's miracle cost is not easily achieved. The fact that is also bounces your stuff is sometimes regrettable. This is still not a clean cut swap though. Power artifact needs more testing. I don't like that it's a dead draw without the monoliths.
EDIT: Enter The Infinite? WHHAAATT?! Jeez. It's Niv+Curiosity in one spell... with a HORRENDOUS cost. As much as I like it, at such a stratospheric cost, is it too win more? There's always Dream Halls. Seems perfect for Jhoria at least.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
So excited about this full art Niv that I wanted to drop this here. The deck is performing well for me, only loss in 5 games with it was from a chaos player swerving my trade secrets to himself and then playing cerebral vortex after we both drew 50 cards
That Nivvy is sweet! <3 the flaming cards.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Note that I play in a larger group normally having 5 player games so I have some more permanent hand cycling effects and other cards instead of the cheaper draw cards like faithless looting which you use to draw into combo cards. I have to play a slower game, but my build has been pretty durable