It really feels like it lands in an awkward spot in my mind. Glorious Anthem effects tend to be underwhelming overall in EDH and not count for enough. The removal effect means you have to take the damage first, it doesn't work against hexproof / shroud, and it doesn't actually stop anything.
Its really sort of awkward in my mind. I don't think its really that great EDH wise. I think it might be something for the constructed guys to consider a bit more and I could see it being a sick limited bomb. Its just not the sort of things I really care to try to combine for EDH I guess...
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
So pre-release weekend is behind us and we all got to play with some sweet cards from Theros. What did everyone think about all those flashy enchantments?
I for one picked up my copy of Elspeth, Sun's Champion, which looks awesome, but I was also very impressed with Heliod, God of the Sun, which I think I might want to test for a bit. Could end up being awful.
I really like this deck. It seems fun and synergistic. I would love to give this style of deck a try. I just wanted to know how Theros is going to change everything. I love this primer, and I am excited to see it updated.
I really like this deck. It seems fun and synergistic. I would love to give this style of deck a try. I just wanted to know how Theros is going to change everything. I love this primer, and I am excited to see it updated.
Welcome to the forums!
We had a little discussion about some of the new cards. I believe Heliod will prove to be a bit too expensive to make tokens but Elspeth, Sun's Champion could be a very strong addition. Both of her first 2 abilities are very relevant and the emblem is very strong as well if we can manage to activate it (Doubling Season?). It's a shame Prophet of Kuphrix isn't in our color identity. Nykthos, Shrine of Nix is another interesting card but unfortunately most tokens don't have mana symbols in their cost so no help with devotion from them.
So I've been testing both Heliod, God of the Sun, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and I am sad to say, Heliod just isn't very good. I am not sure if anyone else has tested him, but as a token producer he's just not particularly efficient, and he's never the big scary creature he promises to be (which may actually be a good thing a lot of the time.) The Vigilance ability is a nice bonus, but Serra's Blessing is definitely not something the deck needs. That fact you can tutor him up with multiple different tutors is not irrelevant, but you'd rather just have Ant Queen and Sacred Mesa if you need a good token producer.
I only drew Elspeth once, but she did turn out to be relevant in that game. The treat of a repeatable Wrath is real, and she does make quite a few tokens.
Has anyone else had a some game play with Theros cards?
I've seen Heliod in action in a monowhite deck and he was actually not too bad. That said monowhite can run a lot of mana doublers which obviously make him much better and the deck was built around the commander as well so devotion was met easily.
I definitely want to test out Elspeth but it's one of the few Theros cards I haven't been able to pick up :/
I'm probably going to keep testing Zeus for a bit, because I really do want him to be good. It's such a pain trying to find cuts for cards recently too, so it could be that I'm judging him too harshly just because I want to keep some other sweet cards in the deck.
I think he's fine on his own, you're still paying 2 mana for 1 power on the table. It's when you start adding other cards that he seems like he would be lackluster. For example Earthcraft is not very good with him but insane with Sacred Mesa and Ant Queen.
It is obviously sweet, but I also think it is a bit meta dependent. If you play against a lot of other token decks, it loses a lot of value. You'd still probably play it, but you would have to keep it in mind.
Also, you have to ask yourself if you really need that many Doubling Seasons. (The answer is yes.)
I'm actually not worried about the symmetry that much as there aren't many other token decks in my meta (though Riku would be scary). Do we need another Doubling Season though? The card is very powerful obviously be we already have Doubling Season and Parallel Lives and both cards are better by a significant margin. It almost seems more like a sorcery that has a long term effect for our purposes since realistically it's never getting tutored up and would just be there for the redundancy. So is that worth losing another deck slot?
It's an effect that I never want to use my tutors for, I'd always rather tutor for some form of answer or utility, so adding redundancy to increase the chance of drawing into it is very attractive to me.
That's a fair point, now that I think about it I'm mainly getting answers as well or if I'm looking for an enabler I grab something broken like Earthcraft/Survival or cards that are broken based on the board state (Earthcraft/Survival). Definitely something I need to put more thought into. These cards are terrible in multiples because they don't actually do anything the other one doesn't but it's not like they stay on the board long either.
EDIT: I also still need an Elspeth, is she as good as she looks?
Does anyone actually get much use out of Gavony Township? I can honestly say that I've never activated it once, and I'm probably going to swap it out for Ghost Town (for my precious landfall triggers), but I'm curious what other people's experience has been.
I cut it because it was simply too clunky to use. There are plenty of utility lands to choose from and we can have a deck full of colorless mana sources.
I also still need an Elspeth, is she as good as she looks?
Well, it depends on what you intend on cutting. I cut Austere Command for her, and while she has less utility value than the command, she does a similar job (in terms of the bigger creatures) while staying around to make more tokens and even Smite the Monstrous again. I have not been too upset with her, but I do miss being able to hit Artifacts and Enchantments sometimes, and small creatures are sometimes a problem as well, but an army of tokens can usually deal with them.
On a similar note. What did you guys cut for Heliod, God of the Sun? I cut Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, because Overrun is not always what I want to be doing, and I usually just like Token Generators anyway, but I could be wrong.
Well, it depends on what you intend on cutting. I cut Austere Command for her, and while she has less utility value than the command, she does a similar job (in terms of the bigger creatures) while staying around to make more tokens and even Smite the Monstrous again. I have not been too upset with her, but I do miss being able to hit Artifacts and Enchantments sometimes, and small creatures are sometimes a problem as well, but an army of tokens can usually deal with them.
On a similar note. What did you guys cut for Heliod, God of the Sun? I cut Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, because Overrun is not always what I want to be doing, and I usually just like Token Generators anyway, but I could be wrong.
I was definitely thinking to cut Austere Command for her. There's situations where both cards are much more powerful than the other but if we can manage to get Bane of Progress in here I think that would really eliminate the need to run Austere Command as we'd have a tutorable Purify. However to do this I thing we need to cut back on our enchantment package and I think it might be well worth it to do so. Basically make the toolbox more creature heavy while sacrificing as little power as possible.
I can't really argue with the Kamahl cut as I've cut him before myself. He's a huge mana hog but I think he's ok for now.
Now all that said here's what I'm thinking to reduce some of the enchantment redundancy.
-Austere Command
+Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Can't tutor for either but both deal with creatures. Enchantment/artifact removal less important with Bane of Progress.
-Mana Reflection
+Bane of Progress
We already have Mirari's Wake so this does reduce our redundancy but we still have a mana doubler as a tutor target if we need it. I feel this guy is strong enough to consider warping the deck a bit just to run him.
-Sword of Feast and Famine
+Fauna Shaman
This is kind of ballsy just running with 1 equipment but if we're strengthening our creature toolbox I feel like we need better access to it. Fauna Shaman seems like the best tutor I'm not running.
Other possibilities for cuts I saw
Oblivion Stone - With the swaps about I think this will no longer be needed. Our creature removal will still be very poor but the stuff we'd be running is more selective.
Genesis - I like him but he's very slow and cumbersome. Still a nice card to have around especially adding in a second Survival.
Spawning Pit - I still really like it but it's certainly not essential.
Possibilities for inclusion
Sun Titan - Really not a fan but I know a lot of people like him and he is a good card.
Keeper of Progenitus - Don't laugh I've actually seen this guy used to great effect despite randomly helping opponents. I play him in mono green as an easily accessible mana doubler. We probably don't have enough lands with basic land types to make him work for us though. Food for thought.
Really open to suggestions here, these were the cards that stood out to me.
-Austere Command
+Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Can't tutor for either but both deal with creatures. Enchantment/artifact removal less important with Bane of Progress.
I am quite the fan of the new Bane of Progress. I think this change is a fine change. This is the change I made, and I have been quite happy with it.
-Mana Reflection
+Bane of Progress
We already have Mirari's Wake so this does reduce our redundancy but we still have a mana doubler as a tutor target if we need it. I feel this guy is strong enough to consider warping the deck a bit just to run him.
Again Bane of Progress seems sweet. Mana Reflection has not made me many friends, so I am not too upset to see it go.
I always felt wierd that I had a million of the DotP ScOozes, but never actually played any of them. I really wanted to test him because he seems very strong. I am a big fan of this change.
I think Regal Force is a lot better than Skullmulcher. It might not count the few white creatures in the deck, but it does not require you to lose any creatures. Fecundity is good though, but the symmetry has come back to bite me before.
-Sword of Feast and Famine
+Fauna Shaman
This is kind of ballsy just running with 1 equipment but if we're strengthening our creature toolbox I feel like we need better access to it. Fauna Shaman seems like the best tutor I'm not running.
I never played SoFaF because I am just not a big fan of it, but Skullclamp is just so busted that it is worth it just running it as the only equipment.
A few other notes:
I don't think Genesis or O-Stone are correct cuts. Genesis maybe slow, but he is very strong as a way to grind out card advantage, especially with a Sac. Outlet. O-Stone gives a very strong out to most permanents, including pesky Planeswalkers, which have become a very prominent threat in my Meta.
You might be right but my experience with the cards is a little different. Planeswalkers are pretty rare in my meta and if we mix up the removal package above I think we could get by without it. I've cut it before and really regretted it but I think it might be worth taking a second look at now. Genesis is great at grinding out card advantage and is excellent mass discard recovery but I don't find myself grinding that much in my group. Our games tend to be more of a race to see who can drop a game winning bomb the quickest. This could be a dominating board presence, crippling resource denial (geddons, maybe mass discard), combo (pretty rare but happens), lockdown or anything else that wins the game. Even the few grindy decks we have (karador, Ghost Council 1.0, Ghave) are more focused on crippling your resources first then grinding you down which Genesis doesn't really help with. It still may be worth it to keep him around as a silver bullet though for the matches where he really shines (Gaddock Teeg and Monoblack control mainly but certain blue decks too).
Especially now, losing Austere Command, having a massive board wipe to be able to deal with a lot of different permanents all at once, especially swarm decks , I definitely think O-Stone is pretty important.
I usually look a Genesis a solid method of recurring answers, usually Eternal Witness not fetch Replenish or Austere Command (Which is now Elspeth, Sun's Champion). When used in conjunction with a Sac. Outlet it turns into another catch-all.
Personally I think Sun Titan fills the same role and works a lot better. You don't get back big stuff, but you get it back so slowly with Genesis anyway. You can Sun Titan an E Wit to get back the other stuff.
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Its really sort of awkward in my mind. I don't think its really that great EDH wise. I think it might be something for the constructed guys to consider a bit more and I could see it being a sick limited bomb. Its just not the sort of things I really care to try to combine for EDH I guess...
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I for one picked up my copy of Elspeth, Sun's Champion, which looks awesome, but I was also very impressed with Heliod, God of the Sun, which I think I might want to test for a bit. Could end up being awful.
Excited about anything else?
I really like this deck. It seems fun and synergistic. I would love to give this style of deck a try. I just wanted to know how Theros is going to change everything. I love this primer, and I am excited to see it updated.
Welcome to the forums!
We had a little discussion about some of the new cards. I believe Heliod will prove to be a bit too expensive to make tokens but Elspeth, Sun's Champion could be a very strong addition. Both of her first 2 abilities are very relevant and the emblem is very strong as well if we can manage to activate it (Doubling Season?). It's a shame Prophet of Kuphrix isn't in our color identity. Nykthos, Shrine of Nix is another interesting card but unfortunately most tokens don't have mana symbols in their cost so no help with devotion from them.
I only drew Elspeth once, but she did turn out to be relevant in that game. The treat of a repeatable Wrath is real, and she does make quite a few tokens.
Has anyone else had a some game play with Theros cards?
I definitely want to test out Elspeth but it's one of the few Theros cards I haven't been able to pick up :/
Bane of Progress - 4GG
Creature
When ~ ETB destroy all artifacts and enchantments. Put X +1/+1 counters on ~ for each permanent destroyed this way
2/2
This would have been a dream card if it didn't hit enchantments but I think he's still strong enough to warrant some discussion. Lark friendly too.
Now, Doubling Season #3 on the other hand...
It is obviously sweet, but I also think it is a bit meta dependent. If you play against a lot of other token decks, it loses a lot of value. You'd still probably play it, but you would have to keep it in mind.
Also, you have to ask yourself if you really need that many Doubling Seasons. (The answer is yes.)
But yes, finding a slot will be very difficult.
EDIT: I also still need an Elspeth, is she as good as she looks?
Well, it depends on what you intend on cutting. I cut Austere Command for her, and while she has less utility value than the command, she does a similar job (in terms of the bigger creatures) while staying around to make more tokens and even Smite the Monstrous again. I have not been too upset with her, but I do miss being able to hit Artifacts and Enchantments sometimes, and small creatures are sometimes a problem as well, but an army of tokens can usually deal with them.
On a similar note. What did you guys cut for Heliod, God of the Sun? I cut Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, because Overrun is not always what I want to be doing, and I usually just like Token Generators anyway, but I could be wrong.
I was definitely thinking to cut Austere Command for her. There's situations where both cards are much more powerful than the other but if we can manage to get Bane of Progress in here I think that would really eliminate the need to run Austere Command as we'd have a tutorable Purify. However to do this I thing we need to cut back on our enchantment package and I think it might be well worth it to do so. Basically make the toolbox more creature heavy while sacrificing as little power as possible.
I can't really argue with the Kamahl cut as I've cut him before myself. He's a huge mana hog but I think he's ok for now.
Now all that said here's what I'm thinking to reduce some of the enchantment redundancy.
-Austere Command
+Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Can't tutor for either but both deal with creatures. Enchantment/artifact removal less important with Bane of Progress.
-Mana Reflection
+Bane of Progress
We already have Mirari's Wake so this does reduce our redundancy but we still have a mana doubler as a tutor target if we need it. I feel this guy is strong enough to consider warping the deck a bit just to run him.
-Night Soil
+Scavenging Ooze
Take out enchantment based GY hate for creature based GY hate.
-Fecundity
+Regal Force or Skullmulcher
Same idea as the Night Soil swap.
-Sword of Feast and Famine
+Fauna Shaman
This is kind of ballsy just running with 1 equipment but if we're strengthening our creature toolbox I feel like we need better access to it. Fauna Shaman seems like the best tutor I'm not running.
Other possibilities for cuts I saw
Oblivion Stone - With the swaps about I think this will no longer be needed. Our creature removal will still be very poor but the stuff we'd be running is more selective.
Genesis - I like him but he's very slow and cumbersome. Still a nice card to have around especially adding in a second Survival.
Spawning Pit - I still really like it but it's certainly not essential.
Possibilities for inclusion
Sun Titan - Really not a fan but I know a lot of people like him and he is a good card.
New Doubling Season - For added redundancy.
Saffi Eriksdotter - Read through Pookelyduke's primer if you want to see what this chick can do.
Heliod, God of the Sun - I have one, I could throw him in.
Keeper of Progenitus - Don't laugh I've actually seen this guy used to great effect despite randomly helping opponents. I play him in mono green as an easily accessible mana doubler. We probably don't have enough lands with basic land types to make him work for us though. Food for thought.
Really open to suggestions here, these were the cards that stood out to me.
I am quite the fan of the new Bane of Progress. I think this change is a fine change. This is the change I made, and I have been quite happy with it.
Again Bane of Progress seems sweet. Mana Reflection has not made me many friends, so I am not too upset to see it go.
I always felt wierd that I had a million of the DotP ScOozes, but never actually played any of them. I really wanted to test him because he seems very strong. I am a big fan of this change.
I think Regal Force is a lot better than Skullmulcher. It might not count the few white creatures in the deck, but it does not require you to lose any creatures. Fecundity is good though, but the symmetry has come back to bite me before.
I never played SoFaF because I am just not a big fan of it, but Skullclamp is just so busted that it is worth it just running it as the only equipment.
A few other notes:
I don't think Genesis or O-Stone are correct cuts. Genesis maybe slow, but he is very strong as a way to grind out card advantage, especially with a Sac. Outlet. O-Stone gives a very strong out to most permanents, including pesky Planeswalkers, which have become a very prominent threat in my Meta.
I usually look a Genesis a solid method of recurring answers, usually Eternal Witness not fetch Replenish or Austere Command (Which is now Elspeth, Sun's Champion). When used in conjunction with a Sac. Outlet it turns into another catch-all.