Cons
Doesn't hit lands so I will no longer have a sure win combo with Survival of the Fittest
I don't win with Reveillark combo very often and it's not my go to win condition but it is nice to have a loop that Survival can set up that essentially just wins me the game. At this point I'm not sure if it's a better Acidic Slime or just a worse Qasali Pridemage in this deck.
Thank you all for the help. I am looking to play in my first 1v1 EDH tournament which uses the FRENCH banned list. This means I will have to find replacements for Sol Ring, Strip Mine, Sensei's Divining Top (which is a card I run only part time). The other issue I have had is Eldrazi over the last few weeks they have started popping up early in games off of ramp decks running tooth and nail... My only out has so far been to step on the gas and put pressure on them but it has had little luck. Does anyone have suggestions how to deal with massive creatures or early fliers?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
This is a toolbox deck so you should make swaps based on your meta. That said Humility and Sacred Ground are both great vs. Eldrazi and it might be a good idea to add in more creature control since my list is very light on it. Fiend Hunter is a good card with a sac outlet that's very accessible or you could use classics like Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. I'm pretty vocal about my dislike for Oblivion Ring but that is an option as well. The new card from Conspiracy Council's Judgment is something I'm considering as well. For replacements I'd use
For fliers you again have Humility or you could try an anti flier creature like Silklash Spider or Arashi, the Sky Asunder. The key is making sure whatever answers you choose to run are easy to access.
Glad to see the deck is speeding up. Last time I tried a very similar version, I was always one or two turns behind a combo deck winning. It felt too white to compete.
That said, I'm going to take this deck and my Thromok deck (which Rhys eventually became) and combine them for a Gahiji, Honored One deck. I don't think anyone has really pushed this guy to his limits yet. All of the "competitive" decks I've seen look pretty weak. He's the only token commander that can just straight buff when you need him, requiring less set up than Rhys or Thromok. Of course, his ultimate power level is not as great, but I'm hoping the speed and lack of setup will help win more games.
Thanks for the guide as it was crucial to my Rhys deck and eventually my Thromok deck.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
That said, I'm going to take this deck and my Thromok deck (which rhys eventually became) and combine them for a Gahiji, Honored One. I don't think anyone has really pushed this guy to his limits yet. All of the "competitive" decks I've seen look pretty weak.
Thanks for the guide as it was crucial to my rhys deck and eventually my thromok deck.
I think that's a great idea. Hazezon has always been the Naya replacement option but he was simply a token generator of which there are already many. Gahiji brings an anthem combined with a political aspect and I think he could really make the deck more aggressive. If you end up with a list I'd like to see it.
Glad the primer helped, I'm always happy to hear that it helped someone.
That said, I'm going to take this deck and my Thromok deck (which rhys eventually became) and combine them for a Gahiji, Honored One. I don't think anyone has really pushed this guy to his limits yet. All of the "competitive" decks I've seen look pretty weak.
Thanks for the guide as it was crucial to my rhys deck and eventually my thromok deck.
I think that's a great idea. Hazezon has always been the Naya replacement option but he was simply a token generator of which there are already many. Gahiji brings an anthem combined with a political aspect and I think he could really make the deck more aggressive. If you end up with a list I'd like to see it.
Glad the primer helped, I'm always happy to hear that it helped someone.
I'm actually surprised at the lack of power adding red to Rhys would bring, but there are some fun things like tooth and nail into Aurelia, the Warleader + craterhoof behemoth. Again, normally you might be waiting one more turn to win because you grabbed eternal witness instead, whereas adding the red has the potential to end the game earlier.
I'm feeling less late game overkill, but quicker damage with adding red. You get things like:
And of course all of the right tutors to grab the enchantments and creatures, with room to spare for whatever combo or meta cards you'd like. I'm personally going to add elesh norn + living plane, though of course rhys can already do this.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
And of course all of the right tutors to grab the enchantments and creatures, with room to spare for whatever combo or meta cards you'd like. I'm personally going to add elesh norn + living plane, though of course rhys can already do this.
One of my favorite little combos is Gilt-Leaf Archdruid + Mirror Entity. It's janky but I've won several games with it when I had it in the deck.
Careful with a lot of those red spells, there's some cool stuff in there but you don't add any tutoring power other than Gamble to find a lot of that stuff. Gahiji also doesn't work very well with Warstorm Surge unfortunately but Surge into Mogg Infestation seems pretty sweet.
And of course all of the right tutors to grab the enchantments and creatures, with room to spare for whatever combo or meta cards you'd like. I'm personally going to add elesh norn + living plane, though of course rhys can already do this.
One of my favorite little combos is Gilt-Leaf Archdruid + Mirror Entity. It's janky but I've won several games with it when I had it in the deck.
Careful with a lot of those red spells, there's some cool stuff in there but you don't add any tutoring power other than Gamble to find a lot of that stuff. Gahiji also doesn't work very well with Warstorm Surge unfortunately but Surge into Mogg Infestation seems pretty sweet.
Yeah, not sold on warstorm surge and vicious shadows as jund and thromok would probably like those more. And by tutors I meant white and green has what we need, so yeah red doesn't necessarily add here. I'm still trying to figure out if red is worth it, but it will be a fun experiment either way.
Haven't seen the mirror entity stuff, but I'm sure it surprises people haha. Have you ever had luck with lands as creatures?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
Yeah, not sold on warstorm surge and vicious shadows as jund and thromok would probably like those more. And by tutors I meant white and green has what we need, so yeah red doesn't necessarily add here. I'm still trying to figure out if red is worth it, but it will be a fun experiment either way.
Haven't seen the mirror entity stuff, but I'm sure it surprises people haha. Have you ever had luck with lands as creatures?
I had a 60 card deck with Life and Limb I played in my group. If you turn lands into creatures you should try to win immediately, it's very dangerous.
Yeah, not sold on warstorm surge and vicious shadows as jund and thromok would probably like those more. And by tutors I meant white and green has what we need, so yeah red doesn't necessarily add here. I'm still trying to figure out if red is worth it, but it will be a fun experiment either way.
Haven't seen the mirror entity stuff, but I'm sure it surprises people haha. Have you ever had luck with lands as creatures?
I had a 60 card deck with Life and Limb I played in my group. If you turn lands into creatures you should try to win immediately, it's very dangerous.
Much agreed. I imagine Elesh norn coming out the turn before or with it, trampling over people for the win, or wiping all the lands in some other way to secure a win. I feel it might be necessary to neuter some combo decks that would normally require something like a counter spell to stop them.
I think the white/green feel of rhys doesn't make a "I don't need land if I win the game" strat as obvious or useful as it can be, as it's usually seen in red and black.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
Now if outlast didn't require a tap that might be different.
I've been running a marath/gahiji deck I'll be posting in here sometime soon. Xenagos, the reveler is a beast.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
Hey Donald, I've played a Rhys token deck for three years now, and I'm sick of it under performing.
For a long time the deck has been a hodgepodge of cards that made tokens, big green creatures, cards that pump all my creatures, and removal. I've seen your primer before, and couldn't afford a lot of the expensive cards at the time, well I still can't. But I'm working on it.
But I have two questions.
The first one is: Some of the cards on this like are insanely pricey, i.e. $50 or more for a single card. Do you have any thoughts on what budget alternatives are out there for people to use in the meantime while they save their pennies or hone their trade skills? I'm looking at you Gaea's Cradle! But there are a few others on the list that are more than I would want to buy all at once as well.
The second is more a prompt for discussion than a question: My old deck, while I felt like it under performed, did have some cards I consistently loved seeing. The first group I'll list is the group you touch on in your article but which I don't think you run: Eldrazi Monument, Coat of Arms, Martial Coup, Wolfbriar Elemental, and Twilight Drover.
Regarding those first three, is your inability to tutor for them the main reason you don't run them? I don't have all the tutors yet, so I haven't noticed that drawback, but collecting a lot of those tutors you recommend is high on the list of priorities, so will I be less impressed with these cards once I've done that? The latter two of the cards you mention but don't run are creatures, they're pretty solid, why don't you care for them? What would you cut if you wanted to run either the elemental or the drover?
The second group of cards I've had a good time with is the one you never mentioned in your article: Emeria Angel, Rampaging Baloths, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Wren's Run Packmaster, and Nacatl War Pride.
I feel like even with fewer land-grabbing cards than you run I still make landfall every turn, Avacyn deals with the biggest weakness of the deck: vulnerability to *** effects, Wren's Run Packmaster pumps out as many tokens as you can afford, and Nacatl war pride is fairly self explanatory. Am I missing drawbacks? Are these cards just too slow to be competitive?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, been keeping up with your main post for over a year now, paying attention to the changes and your thoughts on newly released cards, and slowly altering my deck in the right direction. Just decided to pick up the pace.
(I apologize in advance for my lack of knowledge on creating fancy card links.)
Edit: I can't find Eternal Dragon on your list, you used to run it right? What did it get cut for?
Hey Donald, I've played a Rhys token deck for three years now, and I'm sick of it under performing.
For a long time the deck has been a hodgepodge of cards that made tokens, big green creatures, cards that pump all my creatures, and removal. I've seen your primer before, and couldn't afford a lot of the expensive cards at the time, well I still can't. But I'm working on it.
But I have two questions.
The first one is: Some of the cards on this like are insanely pricey, i.e. $50 or more for a single card. Do you have any thoughts on what budget alternatives are out there for people to use in the meantime while they save their pennies or hone their trade skills? I'm looking at you Gaea's Cradle! But there are a few others on the list that are more than I would want to buy all at once as well.
Hello Aliased! Glad to see you've graduated from lurking and appreciate the well thought out post.
I never did do a budget section but I'll do my best to give you options here. My current build is very heavy on the toolbox theme which requires both tutors and targets. I'd focus on getting the targets first and worry about the tutors later since they draw a lot of their power from having good targets. You should gear your deck more towards goodstuff to try and make up for the loss of synergy with raw power. You really need all the enchantment tutors (especially Academy Rector) to get the most out of your enchantment toolbox so if you don't have them that's the first place to make cuts. Up your redundancy while trying to keep your answers as creature based as possible. Skullmulcher is a great replacement for Regal Force. Knight of the Reliquary isn't needed until the deck is mostly complete, Replenish is much worse without all the enchantments. Not much you can do about Cradle but don't worry too much since it's not that important. Get Elesh Norn or other expensive creatures, they're much more important. Earthcraft is another card I'd be on the lookout for, extremely powerful. Survival is also insane but Fauna Shaman can fill in fine.
Quote from Aliased »
The second is more a prompt for discussion than a question: My old deck, while I felt like it under performed, did have some cards I consistently loved seeing. The first group I'll list is the group you touch on in your article but which I don't think you run: Eldrazi Monument, Coat of Arms, Martial Coup, Wolfbriar Elemental, and Twilight Drover.
Regarding those first three, is your inability to tutor for them the main reason you don't run them? I don't have all the tutors yet, so I haven't noticed that drawback, but collecting a lot of those tutors you recommend is high on the list of priorities, so will I be less impressed with these cards once I've done that? The latter two of the cards you mention but don't run are creatures, they're pretty solid, why don't you care for them? What would you cut if you wanted to run either the elemental or the drover?
The second group of cards I've had a good time with is the one you never mentioned in your article: Emeria Angel, Rampaging Baloths, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Wren's Run Packmaster, and Nacatl War Pride.
I feel like even with fewer land-grabbing cards than you run I still make landfall every turn, Avacyn deals with the biggest weakness of the deck: vulnerability to *** effects, Wren's Run Packmaster pumps out as many tokens as you can afford, and Nacatl war pride is fairly self explanatory. Am I missing drawbacks? Are these cards just too slow to be competitive?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, been keeping up with your main post for over a year now, paying attention to the changes and your thoughts on newly released cards, and slowly altering my deck in the right direction. Just decided to pick up the pace.
(I apologize in advance for my lack of knowledge on creating fancy card links.)
Edit: I can't find Eternal Dragon on your list, you used to run it right? What did it get cut for?
My own personal bar for an instant or sorcery in this deck is Armageddon. If it's not better in enough ways I don't want to run it since I could just run Armageddon instead. Efficient tutors are extremely powerful due to the number of targets so they're fine. Land tutors take up full or partial land slots so they're easier to fit in. Replenish is better in my deck and is often better at winning the game in most stages than Armageddon. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is at least better when I'm behind and often on a neutral board so I like her more (though a strong argument could be made for Armageddon). Other than that I don't feel there's anything strong enough to pull one of my toolbox slots for. But this is all because of how my exact list is set up. Until you get all the working pieces stick with what's working for you and try to up your redundancy with the most powerful options you can. Here's some thoughts on some of the other cards mentioned. Note that I'm approaching this from my own meta which is fairly strong but not to the point that this deck struggles (this deck is actually about the perfect level for my group).
Wolfbriar Elemental - I've really tried to stay away from 1 shot token generators. I have pretty good access to Avenger of Zendikar and haven't felt I needed another target but if you want him for redundancy I can't think of anything better for that slot however I'm interested in hearing more about your experiences with him.
Twilight Drover - I've thought about this guy more than any other you've mentioned. Flying tokens are sweet, efficient casting cost and activation, I own one...yeah I want to try this guy. Will be in the deck next time I play.
Emeria Angel/Rampaging Baloths - I've always felt that 1 token per turn was not enough to justify them but I do see them played on MTGO to good effect. Even with a land drop every turn I feel like it will take too long for these to become large enough threats on their own.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope - This is a meta game thing. Blue is the menace around here and this does nothing against blue so it's not a good enough hoser. Most of the people in my group tried her out and I think the only deck that still plays her is Gaddock Teeg and even there she's manageable.
Wren's Run Packmaster - I think it's one of the most efficient creature based token spammers so seems good for redundancy. Ant Queen is accessible but this is a good backup that just isn't needed with a critical mass of tutors.
Nacatl War Pride - I can't really say much on this guy, he's kind of tricky to evaluate for me. Do you kill many creatures with him?
Eternal Dragon - I really like this guy but feel he's just a tad too slow these days. I've also changed my list so creature count is far less important. Definitely don't fault you for running him.
Card tags are [*card]Name of card[*/card] without the *.
Hey Donald, thanks for the reply. It's been a hectic week at college, sorry I'm only just getting back to you!
Keep in mind that until recently my deck was in one of two situations: it was underpowered compared to the decks with all the good staples in them and I was irrelevant in games OR my deck was overpowered because I had SOME of the staples vs the people who were playing true budget decks. So my thoughts on cards are all skewed.
I'm currently basically using your deck at school, with a large amount of proxies, and I've resolved to buy a lot of the cards sometime between now and next fall, with edits for my own meta. I'm a little unsure what the current meta is around where I live, haven't been playing since the end of college last spring, BUT the most obvious thing is that Blue is the color to beat. I think there are at least two blue decks that are counter-spell heavy and aim to go infinite turns and they generally win.
I actually already own a shiny Knight of the Reliquary, so I don't need to worry about that: What's the crazy formatting for making a deck list? I'll post up what I currently own off your list and another list of all the cards I own that I remember running at some point, add any thoughts I had on them that I can recall.
You mention sorceries, I assume you apply the same logic to the artifacts you can't tutor for as well? So, if I understand right you would rather run Armageddon than a wrath effect that makes a bunch of little dudes? That's interesting, it's probably because I'm usually behind the power curve, but I've never wanted to blow up all the lands.
Thoughts on specific cards:
Eldrazi Monument - protects from *** effects, which has always been the thing I hate to see hit the table, so I like it; the creature buff is just graavy. But like I've said, with more tutors available perhaps I'll think it's an underachiever.
Wolfbriar Elemental - I never wanted to cast him for less than eight mana, and my deck had ramp but lacked Gaea's Cradle and other silly things, so eight mana was a lot. That said, after turn six or so so I generally liked drawing him: I'm interested to see if I like him more playing with proxies of some of the better mana producers. In an opening hand he was a convincing argument for a mulligan, some of my friends like to do partial mulligans in which case he was always pitched.
Twilight Drover - One of three things consistently happened to the drover. He came out in a game where my deck was overpowers and roflstomped, he came out and was quickly recognized as a threat and at removal or was a factor in *** being played, or I drew him when my deck was underpowered and no one cared because they were countering all the real bombs and going infinite turns. Let me know how he performs in a solid deck.
Emeria Angel&Rampaging Baloths - I ran more instants and sorceries that fetched lands and put them into play than you do, so that probably made me feel a little better about them.
Nacatl War-Pride I wasn't running enough overrun effects, so I never got to see this guy really shine, like Wolfbriar he performed well when I felt my deck was overkill and underperformed when knew I myself to be outmatched. He's probably going back in after I've tested out your deck list a few more times in favor of something I don't have yet; I have to know how well he does when I can overrun.
Finally have some time to post my Marath deck, heavily influenced from this Rhys deck. The parenthesis denot how many major roles the card serves in the deck. The more the better.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
You mention sorceries, I assume you apply the same logic to the artifacts you can't tutor for as well? So, if I understand right you would rather run Armageddon than a wrath effect that makes a bunch of little dudes? That's interesting, it's probably because I'm usually behind the power curve, but I've never wanted to blow up all the lands.
You can get artifacts with Enlightened Tutor which can effectively give you 2 copies. Not great but better than no tutors like with sorceries and instants. Armageddon requires board control or a way to quickly recover so it's definitely an underperformer if you're regularly behind. It did do a lot of good work for me when I played it.
Blue decks are tough to deal with in G/W. My group ended up dismantling our overpowered decks and sticking with decks that are about this power level so I don't have to deal with anything too degenerate. Before we did that I ran Choke for many years and it was pretty effective. If they run black there's Compost and if they have both Nature's Wrath is a kick in the balls. Try to find out more about your meta first because if this isn't enough you'll probably need a different deck to stay competitive.
Thanks for the feedback on the cards, I'm looking forward to trying out Twilight Drover. As far as Eldrazi Monument I say keep it. If it works it works. My meta is pretty sweeper light but if yours isn't it seems like a great role player. You also have Enlightened Tutor to get it.
@Drizzle: Lots of cool stuff going on here. Interesting to see Marath has taken over the helm (really like that Living Plane tech). Some nice additional token makers, Purphoros must be nuts, Xenagos, Chaos Warp. Red's got some very nice stuff and you have a lot more reach with Purphoros and Vicious Shadows which isn't something I really considered. I did notice you don't run my 2 favorite red cards which are Wheel of Fortune and Gamble. They both seem great here, Wheel because it's a hand refill in Naya and Gamble because you have a lot of toolbox cards and it gets things like Planeswalkers and Sorceries.
Imo Marath is just too good compared to gahiji. She/he allows you to always have some way to get tokens, especially at that awkward 3 mana stage. Marath can also ping dorks down which has been pretty damn useful so far. Also, with that new 1 cmc green enchantment that adds a 1/1 counter she's even better. Of course, doubling season and parallel live with her is awesome. Being able to make sure you can always interact with those clutch cards is.... clutch.
Red adds a few things:
Like you mentioned, purphoros and vicious shadows adds some killing power.
Xenagos gives bonkers mana. Tempt with vengeance is a surprisingly good token producer I've found because of it's flexibility with X, as well as haste. Rith's charm is a great little card that gives 3 tokens for 3 mana which you don't find often, OR it blows up a problem land.
Of course, dragon broodmother is an insane token producer that always needs to be answered in a deck like this. I feel like I'm cheating when I drop her. Siege-gang commander is a card that has grown on me. Four bodies with the ability to ping creatures or players has been a big upside to this deck.
You get some clutch removal like hull breach, chaos warp, and decimate if you so choose.
One thing I'm trying to work on right now is what spot removal and mass removal to run. Notice the lack of swords to plowshares and return to dust. R/G has a lot of artifact and enchantment removal, but it's hard to pass up return to dust's exile. StP is great and this deck can have issues removing larger creatures.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
Imo Marath is just too good compared to gahiji. She/he allows you to always have some way to get tokens, especially at that awkward 3 mana stage. Marath can also ping dorks down which has been pretty damn useful so far. Also, with that new 1 cmc green enchantment that adds a 1/1 counter she's even better. Of course, doubling season and parallel live with her is awesome. Being able to make sure you can always interact with those clutch cards is.... clutch.
Red adds a few things:
Like you mentioned, purphoros and vicious shadows adds some killing power.
Xenagos gives bonkers mana.
Tempt with vengeance is a surprisingly good token producer I've found because of it's flexibility with X, as well as haste.
Rith's charm is a great little card that gives 3 tokens for 3 mana which you don't find often, OR it blows up a problem land.
Of course, dragon broodmother is an insane token producer that always needs to be answered in a deck like this. I feel like I'm cheating when I drop her.
Siege-gang commander is a card that has grown on me. Four bodies with the ability to ping creatures or players has been a big upside to this deck.
You get some clutch removal like hull breach, chaos warp, and decimate if you so choose.
Sorry about the delay getting back with you, haven't had much time to post lately.
Marath can also kill itself, with pinging even, which is great ability for a commander to dodge tucking and I didn't realize how disgusting Doubling Season with it. That looks all kinds of infinite with Earthcraft.
Rith's Charm looks great, nice find. Instant speed 3 mana land destruction plus 2 other useful modes looks pretty nice.
One thing I'm trying to work on right now is what spot removal and mass removal to run. Notice the lack of swords to plowshares and return to dust. R/G has a lot of artifact and enchantment removal, but it's hard to pass up return to dust's exile. StP is great and this deck can have issues removing larger creatures.
STP and RTD are both great. I'm a big fan of Parallax Wave because it's still useful if you don't need removal. Hallowed Burial is a good option for a sweeper. Qasali Pridemage is removal on a stick. Just depends on what your group plays.
Nice list, I run a similar token-swarming deck with Trostani as my commander (I've gotten north of 600 health before due to Storm Herd resolving with Beastmaster Ascension out...). I'm not surprised to see that Craterhoof is your main wincon as he always gets the job done. I've probably won just as many games with Champion of Lambholt, Odric or Nacatl War-Pride. War-Pride, with Doubling Season or Parallel Lives out, it's usually a blowout even without an overrun effect. I have used him to take out chump creatures before, kind of a fight effect. Odric and Lambholt = you can't block so, again, don't even need the overrun effect most of the time. I'm sure you've probably tried them before but I noticed none of them were in your primer so I just wanted to mention them given my success with them.
Donald have you seen any cards from the new sets the belong in this build?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
Donald have you seen any cards from the new sets the belong in this build?
Hey JediSolo been awhile. There have been some things that caught my eye and it looks like my last post was awhile back so here's some thoughts
Secure the Wastes - I don't like spells in this deck but this is very efficient at what it does. On paper White Sun's Zenith may seem more appealing but the math gets thrown off with anthems and sometimes you just want dudes you can Skullclamp. Haven't tried either but I typically prefer quantity over quality with my tokens.
Act of Authority - This could definitely be a double edged sword but maybe in some groups it could do go work.
Pros
Cheaper cost
Better with Sun Titan and Skullclamp
Cons
Doesn't hit lands so I will no longer have a sure win combo with Survival of the Fittest
I don't win with Reveillark combo very often and it's not my go to win condition but it is nice to have a loop that Survival can set up that essentially just wins me the game. At this point I'm not sure if it's a better Acidic Slime or just a worse Qasali Pridemage in this deck.
Sol Ring - Bloom Tender
Strip Mine - Tectonic Edge
Sensei's Diving Top - Ouch, just run more removal I guess
For fliers you again have Humility or you could try an anti flier creature like Silklash Spider or Arashi, the Sky Asunder. The key is making sure whatever answers you choose to run are easy to access.
That said, I'm going to take this deck and my Thromok deck (which Rhys eventually became) and combine them for a Gahiji, Honored One deck. I don't think anyone has really pushed this guy to his limits yet. All of the "competitive" decks I've seen look pretty weak. He's the only token commander that can just straight buff when you need him, requiring less set up than Rhys or Thromok. Of course, his ultimate power level is not as great, but I'm hoping the speed and lack of setup will help win more games.
Thanks for the guide as it was crucial to my Rhys deck and eventually my Thromok deck.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Glad the primer helped, I'm always happy to hear that it helped someone.
I'm actually surprised at the lack of power adding red to Rhys would bring, but there are some fun things like tooth and nail into Aurelia, the Warleader + craterhoof behemoth. Again, normally you might be waiting one more turn to win because you grabbed eternal witness instead, whereas adding the red has the potential to end the game earlier.
I'm feeling less late game overkill, but quicker damage with adding red. You get things like:
Savage beating
Elemental mastery
Kher keep
Siege-Gang commander
Dragon broodmother
Chaos Warp
Sarkhan Vol
Vandalblast
Mogg infestation
Vicious shadows
Warstorm surge
Haste enablers
And of course all of the right tutors to grab the enchantments and creatures, with room to spare for whatever combo or meta cards you'd like. I'm personally going to add elesh norn + living plane, though of course rhys can already do this.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Careful with a lot of those red spells, there's some cool stuff in there but you don't add any tutoring power other than Gamble to find a lot of that stuff. Gahiji also doesn't work very well with Warstorm Surge unfortunately but Surge into Mogg Infestation seems pretty sweet.
Yeah, not sold on warstorm surge and vicious shadows as jund and thromok would probably like those more. And by tutors I meant white and green has what we need, so yeah red doesn't necessarily add here. I'm still trying to figure out if red is worth it, but it will be a fun experiment either way.
Haven't seen the mirror entity stuff, but I'm sure it surprises people haha. Have you ever had luck with lands as creatures?
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Much agreed. I imagine Elesh norn coming out the turn before or with it, trampling over people for the win, or wiping all the lands in some other way to secure a win. I feel it might be necessary to neuter some combo decks that would normally require something like a counter spell to stop them.
I think the white/green feel of rhys doesn't make a "I don't need land if I win the game" strat as obvious or useful as it can be, as it's usually seen in red and black.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Jade mage, ant queen, awakening zone arguably all do the job better
Now if outlast didn't require a tap that might be different.
I've been running a marath/gahiji deck I'll be posting in here sometime soon. Xenagos, the reveler is a beast.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
I imagine the +1 on Xenagos is quite amazing. Repeatable Mana Geyser seems like it could be abused somehow.
For a long time the deck has been a hodgepodge of cards that made tokens, big green creatures, cards that pump all my creatures, and removal. I've seen your primer before, and couldn't afford a lot of the expensive cards at the time, well I still can't. But I'm working on it.
But I have two questions.
The first one is: Some of the cards on this like are insanely pricey, i.e. $50 or more for a single card. Do you have any thoughts on what budget alternatives are out there for people to use in the meantime while they save their pennies or hone their trade skills? I'm looking at you Gaea's Cradle! But there are a few others on the list that are more than I would want to buy all at once as well.
The second is more a prompt for discussion than a question: My old deck, while I felt like it under performed, did have some cards I consistently loved seeing. The first group I'll list is the group you touch on in your article but which I don't think you run: Eldrazi Monument, Coat of Arms, Martial Coup, Wolfbriar Elemental, and Twilight Drover.
Regarding those first three, is your inability to tutor for them the main reason you don't run them? I don't have all the tutors yet, so I haven't noticed that drawback, but collecting a lot of those tutors you recommend is high on the list of priorities, so will I be less impressed with these cards once I've done that? The latter two of the cards you mention but don't run are creatures, they're pretty solid, why don't you care for them? What would you cut if you wanted to run either the elemental or the drover?
The second group of cards I've had a good time with is the one you never mentioned in your article: Emeria Angel, Rampaging Baloths, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Wren's Run Packmaster, and Nacatl War Pride.
I feel like even with fewer land-grabbing cards than you run I still make landfall every turn, Avacyn deals with the biggest weakness of the deck: vulnerability to *** effects, Wren's Run Packmaster pumps out as many tokens as you can afford, and Nacatl war pride is fairly self explanatory. Am I missing drawbacks? Are these cards just too slow to be competitive?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, been keeping up with your main post for over a year now, paying attention to the changes and your thoughts on newly released cards, and slowly altering my deck in the right direction. Just decided to pick up the pace.
(I apologize in advance for my lack of knowledge on creating fancy card links.)
Edit: I can't find Eternal Dragon on your list, you used to run it right? What did it get cut for?
I never did do a budget section but I'll do my best to give you options here. My current build is very heavy on the toolbox theme which requires both tutors and targets. I'd focus on getting the targets first and worry about the tutors later since they draw a lot of their power from having good targets. You should gear your deck more towards goodstuff to try and make up for the loss of synergy with raw power. You really need all the enchantment tutors (especially Academy Rector) to get the most out of your enchantment toolbox so if you don't have them that's the first place to make cuts. Up your redundancy while trying to keep your answers as creature based as possible. Skullmulcher is a great replacement for Regal Force. Knight of the Reliquary isn't needed until the deck is mostly complete, Replenish is much worse without all the enchantments. Not much you can do about Cradle but don't worry too much since it's not that important. Get Elesh Norn or other expensive creatures, they're much more important. Earthcraft is another card I'd be on the lookout for, extremely powerful. Survival is also insane but Fauna Shaman can fill in fine.
My own personal bar for an instant or sorcery in this deck is Armageddon. If it's not better in enough ways I don't want to run it since I could just run Armageddon instead. Efficient tutors are extremely powerful due to the number of targets so they're fine. Land tutors take up full or partial land slots so they're easier to fit in. Replenish is better in my deck and is often better at winning the game in most stages than Armageddon. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is at least better when I'm behind and often on a neutral board so I like her more (though a strong argument could be made for Armageddon). Other than that I don't feel there's anything strong enough to pull one of my toolbox slots for. But this is all because of how my exact list is set up. Until you get all the working pieces stick with what's working for you and try to up your redundancy with the most powerful options you can. Here's some thoughts on some of the other cards mentioned. Note that I'm approaching this from my own meta which is fairly strong but not to the point that this deck struggles (this deck is actually about the perfect level for my group).
Wolfbriar Elemental - I've really tried to stay away from 1 shot token generators. I have pretty good access to Avenger of Zendikar and haven't felt I needed another target but if you want him for redundancy I can't think of anything better for that slot however I'm interested in hearing more about your experiences with him.
Twilight Drover - I've thought about this guy more than any other you've mentioned. Flying tokens are sweet, efficient casting cost and activation, I own one...yeah I want to try this guy. Will be in the deck next time I play.
Emeria Angel/Rampaging Baloths - I've always felt that 1 token per turn was not enough to justify them but I do see them played on MTGO to good effect. Even with a land drop every turn I feel like it will take too long for these to become large enough threats on their own.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope - This is a meta game thing. Blue is the menace around here and this does nothing against blue so it's not a good enough hoser. Most of the people in my group tried her out and I think the only deck that still plays her is Gaddock Teeg and even there she's manageable.
Wren's Run Packmaster - I think it's one of the most efficient creature based token spammers so seems good for redundancy. Ant Queen is accessible but this is a good backup that just isn't needed with a critical mass of tutors.
Nacatl War Pride - I can't really say much on this guy, he's kind of tricky to evaluate for me. Do you kill many creatures with him?
Eternal Dragon - I really like this guy but feel he's just a tad too slow these days. I've also changed my list so creature count is far less important. Definitely don't fault you for running him.
Card tags are [*card]Name of card[*/card] without the *.
Keep in mind that until recently my deck was in one of two situations: it was underpowered compared to the decks with all the good staples in them and I was irrelevant in games OR my deck was overpowered because I had SOME of the staples vs the people who were playing true budget decks. So my thoughts on cards are all skewed.
I'm currently basically using your deck at school, with a large amount of proxies, and I've resolved to buy a lot of the cards sometime between now and next fall, with edits for my own meta. I'm a little unsure what the current meta is around where I live, haven't been playing since the end of college last spring, BUT the most obvious thing is that Blue is the color to beat. I think there are at least two blue decks that are counter-spell heavy and aim to go infinite turns and they generally win.
I actually already own a shiny Knight of the Reliquary, so I don't need to worry about that: What's the crazy formatting for making a deck list? I'll post up what I currently own off your list and another list of all the cards I own that I remember running at some point, add any thoughts I had on them that I can recall.
You mention sorceries, I assume you apply the same logic to the artifacts you can't tutor for as well? So, if I understand right you would rather run Armageddon than a wrath effect that makes a bunch of little dudes? That's interesting, it's probably because I'm usually behind the power curve, but I've never wanted to blow up all the lands.
Thoughts on specific cards:
Eldrazi Monument - protects from *** effects, which has always been the thing I hate to see hit the table, so I like it; the creature buff is just graavy. But like I've said, with more tutors available perhaps I'll think it's an underachiever.
Wolfbriar Elemental - I never wanted to cast him for less than eight mana, and my deck had ramp but lacked Gaea's Cradle and other silly things, so eight mana was a lot. That said, after turn six or so so I generally liked drawing him: I'm interested to see if I like him more playing with proxies of some of the better mana producers. In an opening hand he was a convincing argument for a mulligan, some of my friends like to do partial mulligans in which case he was always pitched.
Twilight Drover - One of three things consistently happened to the drover. He came out in a game where my deck was overpowers and roflstomped, he came out and was quickly recognized as a threat and at removal or was a factor in *** being played, or I drew him when my deck was underpowered and no one cared because they were countering all the real bombs and going infinite turns. Let me know how he performs in a solid deck.
Emeria Angel&Rampaging Baloths - I ran more instants and sorceries that fetched lands and put them into play than you do, so that probably made me feel a little better about them.
Nacatl War-Pride I wasn't running enough overrun effects, so I never got to see this guy really shine, like Wolfbriar he performed well when I felt my deck was overkill and underperformed when knew I myself to be outmatched. He's probably going back in after I've tested out your deck list a few more times in favor of something I don't have yet; I have to know how well he does when I can overrun.
1 Marath, will of the wild
Token Producers:
1 Tempt with vengeance
1 Luminarch ascension
1 artifact mutation (2)
1 Rith's charm (2)
1 Beast within (2)
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Marath, Will of the wild (2)
1 Living Plane (for the win, or mass creature removal tech)
1 Garruk Wildspeaker (3)
1 Xenagos, the reveler (2)
1 Siege-gang Commander (2)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter (2)
1 Ant queen
1 Verdant embrace (a cheaper verdant force!)
1 Mycoloth (feeling a bit slow)
1 Saproling burst (great burst of tokens)
1 Assemble the legion
1 Increasing devotion (the most on-demand, mana efficient token creator ever)
1 Dragon broodmother (mm mmm)
1 Avenger of zendikar
Pump:
1 Mirror entity (2, sac outlet for vicious shadows)
1 Beastmaster ascension
1 Garruk wildspeaker (3)
1 Purphoros, god of the forge (2)
1 Mirari's wake (2)
1 Elesh norn, grand cenobite (2)
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Kessig wolf run
1 Purphoros, god of the forge (2)
1 Parallel lives
1 Doubling season
1 Vicious shadows
Ramp:
1 Sol ring
1 Birds of paradise
1 Rampant Growth
1 Farseek
1 Sakura-Tribe elder
1 Earthcraft
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Sword of feast and famine (needed to get use out of this card, and it's a target when I already have skullclamp)
1 Awakening Zone (2)
1 Garruk Wildspeaker (3)
1 Oracle of mul daya
1 Xenagos, the reveler (2)
1 Mirari's Wake (2)
Mass removal:
1 Austere Command
1 Hour of reckoning
1 Catastrophe (I don't always feel like wiping lands, otherwise this should be armageddon)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (2)
Spot removal:
1 Marath, Will of the wild (2)
1 Artifact Mutation (2)
1 Hull Breach
1 Rith's Charm (2)
1 Beast Within (2)
1 Chaos Warp
1 Aura Shards
1 Siege-Gang Commander (2)
1 Acidic Slime
1 Eternal Witness
Card Draw/Filter:
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life's Legacy
1 Mentor of the meek
1 Harmonize
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter (2)
Tutors:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eladamri's call
1 Sterling Grove
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Chord of Calling
1 Tooth and Nail (not a fan, but no 2 card win combos here, and these colors need the help to push through)
Other:
1 Spawning Pit
1 Scavenging ooze
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Blue decks are tough to deal with in G/W. My group ended up dismantling our overpowered decks and sticking with decks that are about this power level so I don't have to deal with anything too degenerate. Before we did that I ran Choke for many years and it was pretty effective. If they run black there's Compost and if they have both Nature's Wrath is a kick in the balls. Try to find out more about your meta first because if this isn't enough you'll probably need a different deck to stay competitive.
Thanks for the feedback on the cards, I'm looking forward to trying out Twilight Drover. As far as Eldrazi Monument I say keep it. If it works it works. My meta is pretty sweeper light but if yours isn't it seems like a great role player. You also have Enlightened Tutor to get it.
@Drizzle: Lots of cool stuff going on here. Interesting to see Marath has taken over the helm (really like that Living Plane tech). Some nice additional token makers, Purphoros must be nuts, Xenagos, Chaos Warp. Red's got some very nice stuff and you have a lot more reach with Purphoros and Vicious Shadows which isn't something I really considered. I did notice you don't run my 2 favorite red cards which are Wheel of Fortune and Gamble. They both seem great here, Wheel because it's a hand refill in Naya and Gamble because you have a lot of toolbox cards and it gets things like Planeswalkers and Sorceries.
Red adds a few things:
Like you mentioned, purphoros and vicious shadows adds some killing power.
Xenagos gives bonkers mana.
Tempt with vengeance is a surprisingly good token producer I've found because of it's flexibility with X, as well as haste.
Rith's charm is a great little card that gives 3 tokens for 3 mana which you don't find often, OR it blows up a problem land.
Of course, dragon broodmother is an insane token producer that always needs to be answered in a deck like this. I feel like I'm cheating when I drop her.
Siege-gang commander is a card that has grown on me. Four bodies with the ability to ping creatures or players has been a big upside to this deck.
You get some clutch removal like hull breach, chaos warp, and decimate if you so choose.
One thing I'm trying to work on right now is what spot removal and mass removal to run. Notice the lack of swords to plowshares and return to dust. R/G has a lot of artifact and enchantment removal, but it's hard to pass up return to dust's exile. StP is great and this deck can have issues removing larger creatures.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Marath can also kill itself, with pinging even, which is great ability for a commander to dodge tucking and I didn't realize how disgusting Doubling Season with it. That looks all kinds of infinite with Earthcraft.
Rith's Charm looks great, nice find. Instant speed 3 mana land destruction plus 2 other useful modes looks pretty nice.
STP and RTD are both great. I'm a big fan of Parallax Wave because it's still useful if you don't need removal. Hallowed Burial is a good option for a sweeper. Qasali Pridemage is removal on a stick. Just depends on what your group plays.
Secure the Wastes - I don't like spells in this deck but this is very efficient at what it does. On paper White Sun's Zenith may seem more appealing but the math gets thrown off with anthems and sometimes you just want dudes you can Skullclamp. Haven't tried either but I typically prefer quantity over quality with my tokens.
Act of Authority - This could definitely be a double edged sword but maybe in some groups it could do go work.
Sacred Mesa - That artwork!
Thunderfoot Baloth - I hadn't really considered this guy when I first read him but he's got potential and the trample is nice.
I broke my decks down years ago to build my cube so when I reassemble this deck it will typically be a few cards off. Twilight Drover is a staple for me now and I always run Reclamation Sage. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Regal Force, Sun Titan, Fauna Shaman, Joraga Treespeaker and Acidic Slime are cards that don't always get played. I'll sometimes cut a ramp spell or redundant spell like Parallel Lives if I'm feeling indecisive. That gives me some slots to play with. I'm waiting for a Thunderfoot Baloth to arrive in the mail and he'll likely see some play time. Hallowed Spiritkeeper and Custodi Soulbinders didn't really pan out for me. As for an update at this point I'd probably cut Fauna Shaman and Sacred Ground for Twilight Drover and Reclamation Sage. Thunderfoot Baloth will be competing for Kamahl's slot.