MTG Salvation

Quote from danelog

I think it is stronger then Elspeth. Is elspeth really that good? She makes you some token, gains you some life and sometimes goes ultimate. I haven't tried her so I don't know but it seems to me Praetors council is better.

I haven't actually played Elspeth yet, she was added in pretty recently and hasn't been drawn. My experience with Garruck and Elspeth 1.0 were really bad so I wasn't even going to test the newer Elspeth but my friend convinced me to try her out and she's tested out very well so far in his Ghost Council deck so she's getting her trial run here (and I even get to run Doubling Season!). I'm running Praetor's Counsel in my Angus deck so let me test it out there, see how it does, I'll test Elspeth here, see how she does and then I can make a better evaluation. I still need to find room to get Armageddon back on my list too though, cuts aren't getting easy in this deck.:-/

Whats your reason for not running these cards at the moment.

Mana Crypt

Saffi Eriksdotter

Crovax (I understand he kills tokens, but still)

Quote from porcupinetreeman

Whats your reason for not running these cards at the moment.

Mana Crypt

Saffi Eriksdotter

Crovax (I understand he kills tokens, but still)

I only have the 1 Mana Crypt in my cube, if I were to bring this deck to a side event I would throw it in. A good card for sure but just something I don't have an extra copy of. I played with Saffi for a long while but since the printing of Acidic Slime I don't really need her to win the game with the Reveillark combo and she isn't very exciting on her own. Not bad but just not worth the slot anymore. Crovax does a few things, he kills my opponents tokens, is an anthem for most of my guys and blows up lands with Kamahl. This deck should out token most other token decks, especially decks not making white tokens and he is pretty poor as an anthem. The Kamahl trick is nice but Kamahl is so strong I don't feel the need to add in cards to make him better. While he is pretty versatile I would rather use that slot on something that is more focused. Crovax is more of a metagame call I think, if he hoses other generals in your group or they're running some token strategies he's probably worth a shot.

How about the Jumiper order ranger and woodfall primus combo. Is it worth playing in this deck? they are both good cards by themselves and together are amazing.

I don't like playing combos just for the sake of playing combos. They're fine when all the pieces are good enough anyways like with the Earthcraft and Reveillark combos but I tend to avoid them when it requires me to put otherwise poor cards into my deck. This deck is more a synergy deck than a combo deck. Juniper Order Ranger by himself is pretty bad because he doesn't pump creatures already in play, only boosts them by +1/+1 and is pretty expensive at 5 mana for what he does. Woodfall Primus otoh is very strong and interacts nicely with Oran-Rief, the Vastwood. However he costs 8 and this deck can deal with non-creatures pretty effectively already. I'd rather just run Terastodon. Ultimately there are a bunch of combos I could put in my list, Kamahl + Crovax, Primus + Ranger, Mirror Entity + Gilt-Leaf Archdruid (one of my favorites:D) but really these are all worse than just running the Earthcraft and Reveillark combos and I've found those to be sufficient. My personal list is specifically for my playgroup and the instant win combos are frowned upon in my group so stuffing a bunch of unnecessary combos in my deck is going to lose me more games in the long run just from the extra hate it will draw.

I don't know what you think about spoilers, so [SPOILERS]:
http://mtgsalvation.com/new-phyrexia-spoiler.html
What do you think of the white Praetor ?

I think it is very good and I will certainly include it. Crovax, Ascendant Hero has been in and out a couple times mostly because of his interaction with Kamahl, Fist of Krosa but I didn't find him to be quite good enough on his own so he ultimately got cut. A greatly improved version that is good by itself will be a very welcome addition. There are also a lot of 2 toughness generals in my group that the Praetor will hose. Overall I'm pretty excited about this card.

Awesome!! I was wondering what you thought of it. I really like it. Even just by itself its a massive beater, especially considering how all of their creatures are much smaller, and Elesh Norn has vigilance.

Fresh Meat

This card seems really fantastic in here. I always wanted to use Caller of the Claw but it wasn't an option since it didn't work with tokens. Not only does this function with tokens it also improves them. The downside is I can't tutor for it but I think I could cut something similar like Decree of Justice.

Your current list is a very solid list. I recently sleeved up this deck with some minor modifications based on meta choices and some choices that I just preferred.

I removed the Strip Mine as we really don't do much if any land destruction in my play group. I also removed the Saltcrusted Steppe as I just am not a fan of the storage lands but I do see how good they can be with Doubling Season. I replaced these with Razorverge Thicket and Sunpetal Grove. I also replaced Acidic Slime with Terastodon as I like that it can get Planeswalkers and you remove 3 permanents.

One thing I need though to try to fit in is artifact exile as we do have players that like to run things like Darksteel Forge and other indestructible artifacts. I was thinking of fitting in either Return to Dust and/or Dust to Dust but it's been a tough call on what to cut for that change.

Quote from FatMoti

Your current list is a very solid list. I recently sleeved up this deck with some minor modifications based on meta choices and some choices that I just preferred.

I removed the Strip Mine as we really don't do much if any land destruction in my play group. I also removed the Saltcrusted Steppe as I just am not a fan of the storage lands but I do see how good they can be with Doubling Season. I replaced these with Razorverge Thicket and Sunpetal Grove. I also replaced Acidic Slime with Terastodon as I like that it can get Planeswalkers and you remove 3 permanents.

One thing I need though to try to fit in is artifact exile as we do have players that like to run things like Darksteel Forge and other indestructible artifacts. I was thinking of fitting in either Return to Dust and/or Dust to Dust but it's been a tough call on what to cut for that change.

Darksteel Forge is something I've run into as well and it can be a huge pain since my only out right now is Primal Command and I can't tutor for it. I've ran Return to Dust before and the card is great but also cannot be tutored up. You might want to consider running an additional sac outlet or 2 (Perilous Forays?) and using Archon of Justice which you can tutor up. I'm mainly using Acidic Slime over Terrastodon because of the Reveillark loop but Terrastodon is certainly an excellent creature. I've been thinking a lot about cuts because there are 2 cards spoiled from the new set that I want to add in. Decree of Justice is great but I'm going to cut it for the new instant that makes 3/3s and I just can't seem to get Regal Force to work with any kind of consistency so he'll probably go out of the white Praetor unless he has an absolutely stellar performance next time I play him. Elspeth Tirel is probably expendable but after that it gets really rough to pull out anything else. Going through my list Saltcrusted Steppe is probably the worst non-basic I run, it's definitely cuttable. Thanks for the feedback and let me know how your testing goes.

i ended up cutting the temple of the false gods for the sunpetal grove in my build. I seemed to keep getting temple early on and it just does NOTHING then. I seem to fail making a land drop every turn so when my 3rd land is a temple i have a very sad face. I might just try ancient tomb at some point though but i bet that damage would add up awfully fast.
I also cut a strip mine for a dustbowl since i just use it to destroy annoying utility lands which don't crop up/ become annoying until midgame.
I also kept in helm of possesion because it is just sooo good, and cut concordant crossroads since it just seemed to screw me over more often than not, and it was just a dead draw since you almost always want to tutor for it in the situation where you will best benefit.
I also have Elesh Norn proxied in where land tax currently is. I don't have land tax yet, but i will probably try taking out regal force for it.
Also, I like the storage land, but may just like the effciency of always having something to do with my mana.
I also have armageddon in for city of solitude since there isn't any blue here (except combo).
So in summary I did:
-1 Temple of the False Gods
-1 Land Tax
-1 Strip Mine
-1 Concordant Crossroads
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Sunpetal Grove
+1 Helm of Possession
+1 Dust bowl

Quote from DrHealex

-1 Temple of the False Gods
-1 Land Tax
-1 Strip Mine
-1 Concordant Crossroads
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Sunpetal Grove
+1 Helm of Possession
+1 Dust bowl

I agree with the good Doctor on a few things. Definitely with loosing the cross roads, and MAYBE the Land tax (though I have had some super special awesome times with it turn 1, so it is pretty awesome so I might keep it). I do want the helm back it is amazing in many, many ways. Also, removing the Decree of Justice for fresh meet is awesome. I very recently realized that Decree of Justice, unless cycled is very annoying dude to the large quantities of mana required for it to be so freaking game changing. Other than that, it is still a super freaking deck. However, strip mine is WAY to good to throw away.

Oh, one more thing, what do you think about the Green Praetor? Also, please find a way to put the helm back in. Seriously.

Beast Within

Quote from DrHealex

i ended up cutting the temple of the false gods for the sunpetal grove in my build. I seemed to keep getting temple early on and it just does NOTHING then. I seem to fail making a land drop every turn so when my 3rd land is a temple i have a very sad face. I might just try ancient tomb at some point though but i bet that damage would add up awfully fast.
I also cut a strip mine for a dustbowl since i just use it to destroy annoying utility lands which don't crop up/ become annoying until midgame.
I also kept in helm of possesion because it is just sooo good, and cut concordant crossroads since it just seemed to screw me over more often than not, and it was just a dead draw since you almost always want to tutor for it in the situation where you will best benefit.
I also have Elesh Norn proxied in where land tax currently is. I don't have land tax yet, but i will probably try taking out regal force for it.
Also, I like the storage land, but may just like the effciency of always having something to do with my mana.
I also have armageddon in for city of solitude since there isn't any blue here (except combo).
So in summary I did:
-1 Temple of the False Gods
-1 Land Tax
-1 Strip Mine
-1 Concordant Crossroads
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Sunpetal Grove
+1 Helm of Possession
+1 Dust bowl

Must have missed this post when there were all those server problems. I'll go over the cards individually:

Temple of the False God - My group tends to have pretty long games because there are no combo decks really and that is where Temple really shines but in faster metas cutting it seems like a good idea. The deck might be able to handle another utility land (High Market?) instead of a fixer though since Rhys is practically colorless so I'd keep an eye on how needed the extra fixing is. Something I've been wanting to try for awhile is City of Shadows but obviously this also suffers from terrible in the early game syndrome.

Concordant Crossroads - I really like the surprise blowout potential this card provides. Generally I only cast this when it will probably win me the game via surprise hasty creatures. The effect is also pretty unique for these colors so I like having it in my toolbox. It isn't really necessary though and space is really tight, I'll keep an eye on it to make sure it is pulling it's weight.

Armageddon - Armageddon is really incredible, I had it for years then swapped it out with Gilt-Leaf Archdruid (for the Mirror Entity combo) thinking it was much easier to tutor up the druid so I could have the LD when I needed it but I think Armageddon is just the better card because it doesn't require another piece to be good even though it cannot be tutored (which does suck). Since we have the white praetor + Kamahl now I think I'm just going to pass on adding in another card that is strictly for LD purposes but I certainly can't fault you for playing Armageddon.

City of Solitude - My meta is very control heavy and requires that I use this card. I remember casting this once and my friend countered it and said something like "I know the next spell is going to be worse but I have to counter this". Basically this draws counterspells better than just about anything so I can bait counters in 2 ways, drop it first forcing them to counter it or tutor it up with Idyllic Tutor/Enlightened Tutor and simply force the counterspell player to hold up mana and let my other spells resolve. My group is heavy enough blue that I also used to run Choke until they started running more blue producing non-basics.

Ancient Tomb - I think this is just too damaging but I've never tried it. The deck probably isn't quick enough to get full use out of it.

Land Tax - My build is unusual for a green deck since I don't ramp much so this is almost always "on" for me. Cutting Regal Force for it is a good idea because he was always way too erratic for me.

Dustbowl vs. Strip Mine - I think I would still keep in Strip Mine because of the dirt cheap activation on it. If you aren't activating Dust Bowl 3+ times/game I think Strip Mine is probably the right call. But if you've tried both cards and found Dust Bowl to be better then obviously Dust Bowl is the correct call for you.

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - Very excited about this card!

Helm of Possession - I was at a loss for cuts when I took this card out. It is probably the correct call for me to run this over Elspeth Tirel but I haven't really had a chance to adequately playtest her so she gets to stay for now. My group tends to be fairly creature light since we have at least 3 decks (everyone has lots of decks though) running Humility and other things like Lethal Vapors in several deck, Spreading Plague, tons of creature sweepers, etc. It is a very harsh environment for creatures compared with what I've seen on MTGO and at the LGS so it wasn't quite as effective as it could have been. That being said there have been some exceptionally powerful creatures printed in the last year so this card is just getting better and better. I'll run Elspeth for another play session then decide if I am going to swap her out for something (very likely).

Beast Within - I try extremely hard to avoid cards I can't tutor for that aren't tutors and I don't think this is quite strong enough to include. Oblation has always been an option but I've never been too impressed with it when I've seen it played.

Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - This is such a synergystic deck I usually just pass on generic good creatures unless they are completely stupid (Primeval Titan) and I don't think Vorinclex is quite that stupid. At 8 mana he also competes with the equally ridiculous Terastodon who has a more immediate board impact.

Updates for New Phyrexia will be
+Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
-Regal Force
+Fresh Meat
-Decree of Justice

HM to Brutalizer Exarch - @FatMoti: This guy looks like he was made just for you, perfect answer for Darksteel Forge in this deck. Flexible, able to answer problem permanents and easy to tutor for. If I end up with one before my next play session it is very likely to end up getting tested over Primal Command.

Don't take out Elspeth. In this deck she is crazy. I've won many games with her. Either because I took out all their permanents, or because I was gaining 50+ life each turn and they just couldn't deal with that. That actually happened to me last weekend when playing a 5 player free-for-all as the only non-blue deck. She is amazing.

However, I still think the Helm is crazy and should some how fit in. That's just my opinion.

EDIT: If you want tutorable removal, why not use Duplicant? Or even Oblivion Ring.

Also, ever thought of Serra's Sanctum?

I had Duplicant in for a long while but I very rarely tutored for him and wasn't real happy with him when I did draw him so I ended up cutting him. For creature removal I just use Parallax Wave which has been a much better performer or I just drop Humility which is just amazing. Serra's Sanctum would be offline a fair amount I think, especially early which is a huge pain. I don't think the upsides are worth it.

Yeah. I tested the sanctum for a bit, but it was only working very rarely, usually after Replenish.

Quote from CptAwesum

Yeah. I tested the sanctum for a bit, but it was only working very rarely, usually after Replenish.

Seems pretty good with Replenish.:rolleyes: Course when I cast Replenish I just win almost 100% of the time anyways so not much of a selling point. I've got it in another deck with a lot of enchantments though and it does pretty good work but the deck is a lot slower so it's fine if it's turned off early.

How has Fresh Meat been going? So far I've found it pretty underwhelming. However a card that I've found that's worked quite well recently is High Market

Quote from CptAwesum

How has Fresh Meat been going? So far I've found it pretty underwhelming. However a card that I've found that's worked quite well recently is High Market

I'd be able to tell you if I could ever draw the thing :P. High Market is a really good suggestion, be nice to have a sac outlet on a land I could tutor up. Guess it's time for Springjack Pasture to go.

I don't really like Fresh Meat. The only time I've been able to play it when it wasn't just a dead card, it was under a hideaway land. My changes have been:

- Fresh Meat
- Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree

+ Helm of Possesion
+ High Market

I like Springjack Pasture a bit too much. There is something I like about goats, and the mana and life they give. Probably the bad choice though. Might even take a Forest out.

I really like this deck. The only time I've ever lost with it I was the target of 4 other people, AND I was extremely land screwed. This deck is amazing.

Also, I've been testing Concordant Crossroads a bit more. I agree with you, its awesome.

Quote from CptAwesum

I don't really like Fresh Meat. The only time I've been able to play it when it wasn't just a dead card, it was under a hideaway land. My changes have been:

- Fresh Meat
- Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree

+ Helm of Possesion
+ High Market

I like Springjack Pasture a bit too much. There is something I like about goats, and the mana and life they give. Probably the bad choice though. Might even take a Forest out.

I really like this deck. The only time I've ever lost with it I was the target of 4 other people, AND I was extremely land screwed. This deck is amazing.

Also, I've been testing Concordant Crossroads a bit more. I agree with you, its awesome.

This is one of my favorite decks too, it's got a robust toolbox, tons of synergy and can have some really explosive turns. Thinking about it you may be right on Vitu-Gazi being the cut because I've also been very happy with the Pasture. There's been a few times it really saved me by doubling up a bunch of goats and saccing them for mana and life.

Ok I have really wanted to get into a token deck for a long time now. I have to ask your honest opinion though, Who do you feel would be best in a wrath heavy meta? I sort of feel like I should probably be looking a lot more at Hazezon Tamar as when combined with haste he is the most explosive. I like Rhys but I get the feeling that he is more of a build up over time sort of token swarm. While Hazezon is slower to get started he has explosive turns of token production. What are your thoughts on this? I have several opposition decks that run 8-10+ wrath effects and it just seems too slow like some elfball options I have tried in the past to use Rhys.

Ok as for some actual card selections. I had some questions on some of the following cards as to how useful they have been for you. I know you ley some of them out in the first few pages but I was hoping for some more information on them:

Luminarch Ascension every time I have seen this card played the player gets beat up until it gets blown out of the water. I have yet to ever a single time see one token produced by this thing. I guess every meta is different but I keep getting the feeling this is just a big old lightning rod. I have seen some 8-10 attempts to get it working now and still no positive results for the guy who runs it. Do you often get this running? Does your meta not try to stop it? Do you use your tokens to block their attackers? Do you often have shroud for it?

Concordant Crossroads Ok I can see some potential in this card. The only guy I ever saw run it in the past was a terrible Experiment Kraj player who would end up just tossing it out into play. It was bad and I ended up eventually seeing the guy behind him hit a kicked tooth and nail into 2 eldrazi.... damn that crossroads. This was probably just an example of a terrible player throwing good cards around poorly but still. Out of curiosity when do you usually try to drop this card? How often does it backfire on you?

Night Soil do you consider this more of cheap token production or graveyard hate??? The lack of ability to hit a single card sort of annoys me as well as the inability to hit noncreatures. It is still a good card but as an enchantment that just got thrown into a nontoken deck it underperformed for me. I am sure it is wayyyyy better in this deck though. Still what would you say is its primary function grave hate or token production?

Genesis I guess you probably tutor into Survival to go for the lockout using lark a lot in this deck dont you? He is probably a lot better if that is what your plan is. I tried to get my Jenara deck to not concentrate on doing that so it is a bit tougher to justify this guy in my deck. I just dont like how he is a bad guy to get stuck in your hand or in play. I see a lot more exileing in my meta as well making him worse. Does he backfire often or do you usually tutor into the survival tossing him out for kicks?
Fresh Meat

Primal Command -> Fierce Empath I just dont know what to think about Primal Command anymore. As a strict tutor its a terrible tutor that costs a ton of mana. I rarely use the other options, I usually just use the bounce to topdeck to slow someone's draw down. How often do you go for a small utility guy? Do you feel you need the number of tutors you have in this deck? I can understand wanting consistancy but I was currious how the Empath might play out instead. It provides you with a body as well as a creature to hand. I guess this would depend on how often you go for your utility guys.

Lightning Greaves It works well on your commander but how often does this card really pan out late in the game in a token deck???? Isnt the idea to generate a whole swarm and attack with them??? Obviously putting it on a titan seems win.

Sprout Swarm I have heard people say that it is too mana intensive for what it does. It does sort of slow roll out tokens but due to its convoke I could see it being decent. Any thoughts one way or another on it?

Fresh Meat this card is sort of disappointing the more I look at it. I would rather have smaller creatures and have it cost less but whatever.

Decree of Justice / White Sun's Zenith the instant speed of these effects as well as just the sheer amount of tokens produced at instant speed makes me wonder why you dont use them. I love Decree of Justice as it requires a stifle effect to stop it.

The other reason I might be considering Hazezon Tamar for my token deck is that looking at your decklist does remind me a lot of my Jenara deck. There are still tons of differences but I can feel a similarity in the lists. I don't see a reason to have two decks so similar. Any thoughts?

I play in a very Wrath/Control heavy meta, and I am surprised with how easy this deck bounces back. The only "bad" wraths I've face are Final Judgement and Hallowed Burial because Yavimaya Hallow is pretty ineffective against them, but they aren't too bad to come back from.

Last Thursday I played a 6 player game where my T2 Luminarch Ascension was destroyed after getting a single angle out, then I was wrathed. 3 Turns later Replenish into the Luminarch Ascension and a earlier discarded Mirari's Wake. Luminarch Ascension activated after just 4 people went round. A few turns later, 15 4/4 Angels were flying around. A very important part of Luminarch Ascension is knowing when to play it and knowing how to deal with people targeting you.

Donald told me earlier that Concordant Crossroads is for blow outs. Shooting out crap loads of tokens, then giving them all haste and smashing in for massive awesomeness. Everything I've seen of it so far is that it works very well that way.

Nightsoil is amazing at both Grave hate AND token production, especially post wrath. I think its a better post wrath card than Fresh Meat could ever be, and its still usable at other times. I love this card.

Genesis is ridiculous. It is amazing. I cannot express my love for this love enough. It works especially well with a CIP effect creature and a sac outlet. I've even played him from my hand to beat my opponents down. No-one really want to trade with him, and again, Sac outlets love him.

Fierce Empath is worse than Primal Command. Period. The command is extremely versatile. You need life? BOOM. You need a creature? BOOM. You're against and annoying permanent or a land screwed opponent? BOOM. Almost milled out? BOOM. It does everything you need it to do and more. It may be expensive but it can answer multiple threats at once.

These are just my opinions piloting the deck for the past few weeks. It is extremely fun and very easy to play.