...So, will there be any new inclusions after M12?
Not any from M12. The new Greaves are nice but the regular ones are better and I don't need the redundancy for them. I did update my list with changes for Commander finally and decided to hold off on Sun Titan for now and keep in the Lark combo.
What about pentavus? with a doubling season in, he can be a huge pain!! Comes in as a 10/10, and then for only 1 mana you have 2 1/1 flyers. It can combo out with earthcraft too!
What about pentavus? with a doubling season in, he can be a huge pain!! Comes in as a 10/10, and then for only 1 mana you have 2 1/1 flyers. It can combo out with earthcraft too!
He's not bad but I'd rather play Triskelavus because it can deal direct damage to players and act as removal. Ultimately I think both are a little too expensive for what you get.
I like the changes. I was really rallying for a return of Helm of Possesion over Fresh Meat, because it was so much better, but I think Martyr's Bond is a very good fit.
On the whole "Planeswalker" topic, Elspeth is much better than I think some people give it credit for. I have tested all her abilities and I think they are all very useful. Gaining life can be quite useful, and of course token generators are amazing in this deck. The one ability I really want to talk about is her ultimate. Destroying all "non-tokens" is a real beating. It has won me more games than I can remember. It should not be taken lightly.
Also, with the new Garruk, not that I think he fits in this deck, I'm sure it has a place in some token decks and card draw on a GREEN planeswalker seems ridiculous.
I love this deck Donald, keep up the good work. Lets hope Innistrad brings some insane card for Rhys.
I like the changes. I was really rallying for a return of Helm of Possesion over Fresh Meat, because it was so much better, but I think Martyr's Bond is a very good fit.
I almost went back to the Helm but Martyr's Bond seems really powerful so I want to try it out.
On the whole "Planeswalker" topic, Elspeth is much better than I think some people give it credit for. I have tested all her abilities and I think they are all very useful. Gaining life can be quite useful, and of course token generators are amazing in this deck. The one ability I really want to talk about is her ultimate. Destroying all "non-tokens" is a real beating. It has won me more games than I can remember. It should not be taken lightly.
Agreed, all 3 abilities are solid. Even the lifegain has been very helpful on occasion.
Also, with the new Garruk, not that I think he fits in this deck, I'm sure it has a place in some token decks and card draw on a GREEN planeswalker seems ridiculous.
I think he might have a place in a fatty deck as another Soul's Majesty type card that doesn't target. I'm fine paying 2GGG to draw 9 cards from my Terastodon.
I love this deck Donald, keep up the good work. Lets hope Innistrad brings some insane card for Rhys.
Thanks and I hope we get some goodies from Innistrad as well. Just not too many...I don't want to cut too much more.
Due to the lack of counter decks I don't have city of solitude in my list and I have the helm instead.
I finally got to play Martyrs Bond yesterday... unfortunatey it came out a turn before I played a survival and subsequential revilark comboed out... although I will say this... martyrs bond with the combo makes it an auto scoop, whereas people will still insist on playing it out when they still have big ol fatties on their side elsewise.
I would need to type it all up, but I have a build for Rhys that is pretty brutal. Out of my 3 EDH decks it is probably the best one overall. Nath is a little more consistent and Skittles is better in 1v1 but I have found Rhys to be fairly powerful and resilient so long as he doesn't face off against his eternal nemesis. A properly built MBC featuring Drana which is almost unbeatable for poor Rhys save those games where I go infinite by turn 3 or I get a turn 2 or 3 Nat Order into Terastodon to put him back on turn 0 while I am busy winning.
I would need to type it all up, but I have a build for Rhys that is pretty brutal. Out of my 3 EDH decks it is probably the best one overall. Nath is a little more consistent and Skittles is better in 1v1 but I have found Rhys to be fairly powerful and resilient so long as he doesn't face off against his eternal nemesis. A properly built MBC featuring Drana which is almost unbeatable for poor Rhys save those games where I go infinite by turn 3 or I get a turn 2 or 3 Nat Order into Terastodon to put him back on turn 0 while I am busy winning.
I'd like to see your decklist, I've had this list basically the same for years so I could use some fresh insight.
Enjoyed reading your take on Rhys - thanks for keeping your list and progress updated!
Currently building a token power deck and was originally leaning toward G/W/B Ghave, but Rhys seems like it would be stronger.
Thanks and welcome to the forum!
I don't have much experience with Ghave but there are some very good looking lists around here. Ghave is more a combo deck while Rhys is a token swarm deck that can randomly combo out sometimes.
Creature - Human Soldier 2W
Whenever another creature with power 2 or less enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay 1. If you do, draw a card.
YES! I do love me some card draw, and making all your tokens Cantrip is just awesome. I love this card.
Parallel Lives 3G
Enchantment
If an effect would put one or more tokens onto the battlefield under your control, it puts twice that many tokens onto the battlefield instead.
Like Doubling Season, except worse. Maybe you like it more than me. Could be awesome.
Gavony Township
Land
: Add to your mana pool.
2GW, T : Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control.
Like Oran Reif, but better. I really love this card. I actually opened a foil one pre-release weekend. It is very good.
Too bad Garruk Relentless is considered black, because I really like it.
I think the land and Parallel Lives are for sure adds. Mentor of the Meek is really good too so I'll try to find room for him as well so definitely a good set for this deck. I've got some other updates that I just haven't gotten around to adding to my list, hopefully by the end of the day it should be Innistrad updated.
EDIT: So I went with the following changes, some from Innistrad and some others that I'm going to try out.
-Eternal Dragon - He seemed like an appropriate cut for a 2 drop ramp creature because he doesn't actually accelerate me.
-Primal Command - I had too many 5cc spells and this was one of the weaker tutors.
-Elspeth Tirel - Again too many 5cc spells and I have no tutors for her. She is very good however.
-Yavimaya Elder - Another good cut for a cheap ramper. He also falls at an awkward spot in my curve because I want to make a token turn 3 most games.
-Plains - Gavony Township seems really good and I like all my other colorless producing lands. I think this is the maximum number of them so if I add another in the future I'll have to cut one.
+Bloom Tender - I added in 3 cheap creatures that can tap for 2 mana. This gives me something to do turn 2 and allows me to play 5cc spells on turn 3.
+Priest of Titania - See above.
+Joraga Treespeaker - See above.
+Parallel Lives - Seems made for this deck.
+Gavony Township - Kind of expensive for an anthem but it just takes up a land slot so it's fine.
Sorry Donald, but I completely disagree. I have dabbled a in the 2cc mana ramp guys but they just don't hold a candle to anything else in this deck. Elspeth Tirel is such a good walker that even without tutors, she is amazing. Priest of Titania, Bloom Tender, and Joraga Treespeaker? Really? These cards are so bad if you don't have them in your opening hand. Imagine top decking this late game compared to an Eternal Dragon (which you can plains cycle for turn 2) or Elspeth. Even Yavimaya Elder is better. He cycles, he gets lands, he's bigger than just a 1/1.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I still prefer being a grindy tokens deck that doesn't need the elf ramp, than a deck that can play a turn 3 5cc card.
Donald, do you have any advice as to what to do when faced with one or more blue skeleton players? My FLGS usually has games of 4-9 players, and I can pretty much count on Azami and perhaps one other blue skeleton. They like to steal mana multiplieriers such as Doubling Season and, of course, the Azami player licks his chops at the prospect of stealing Seedborn Muse and following it up with a Capsize victory.
Was thinking of replacing Bloom Tender from your list with that new card - Nevermore and calling Capsize. 'Coure, therre are still all those extra turn cards and the self-regenerating combos thanks to a Kozilek or Ulamog library refresh. Ultimately, the best way to stop him is get a quick kill.
Is Bloom Tender pretty cuttable in this list or am I missing some effect of it besides a two drop that ramps really well at the start?
I haven't even tried out the cheap mana ramp guys yet so I can't really say if they are worth it. They seem like they would be great early plays but as CptAwesum said they are pretty awful topdecks later in the game outside of Survival fodder although they do offer me some protection against mass land destruction which is pretty common in my group. Since they're the only thing I haven't tried out yet they're pretty safe cuts. Maybe just run Priest of Titania because she's the best one and see how she does.
Against blue decks, especially monoblue, I would run some or all of the following:
I played Choke for a number of years and it's very effective at hosing blue. If you need additional help there is also Seedtime and Defense Grid. Basically just run a bunch of color hosers and you should be fine.
I run a pretty blue heavy Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind deck that has done some destructive things in my play group. However, I am constantly thwarted by cards like City of Solitude. Tsunami is also a pretty awesome card. Any thing that disables their destruction is pretty devastating. Terrestadon is also pretty scary. Not having lands is a huge draw back to blue decks. You could also run Armageddon and Ravages of War type cards to do upsetting things to the entire board. Land destruction and disruption disruption is what you need rlPanda.
Donald: You should test the rampers at lest. I tested them a while back and they're pretty irrelevant. Another issue I found with a turn 3 5cc card is that in multiplayer you make yourself a target and with enough players won't let you survive very long. I have a more conservitive play style in EDH other multiplayer games. That's why I like staying back playing enchantments until *BANG!*, I win.
On another note, I took a page out of DrHealex's book and removed City of Solitude from my list due to lack of counter spell decks in my meta. I also removed Oran Rief, the Vastwood for Gavony Township because I think they fit similar rolls, but The township does it better. Also, there is usually enough green mana when I play.
I really want a place for Mentor of the Meek. I was thinking taking out Fecundity for it, but that could actually lower the number of cards drawn overall. I still want to find a place for it though.
I can definitely see the cheap rampers not being good enough but I want to give them a test run. The decks in my playgroup have been speeding up and this list is feeling a little sluggish at times so hopefully this will help. If not then I just change back (and have room for the Mentor!).
Also good call on the 'geddons for combating blue. Cutting Oran-Rief for the new land also seems fine. I think I can handle this many colorless lands but if not I will be doing the same thing.
EDIT: I'd recommend cutting something other than Fecundity. It's the only enchantment in the deck that draws cards and does so very well.
Choke, Carpet of Flowers and maybe Tsunami are cards I should include - thanks for the suggestions!
Anyone try to get away with making a token army then dropping something obscene like Coat of Arms or Overrun and then rawr-rawr-rawr!!
Also that new guy Essence of the Wild looks promising. Kinda obvious and scary threat to the board though - might get you too much unwanted attentions.
rlPanda: Beastmaster Ascension is pretty insane. I was playing yesturaday and manged to instant speed cheat Avenger of Zendikar into play with 8 tokens. I then played a land, then played Primeval Titan. Then I attacked for over 77 taking everyone out in 1 go. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is also very good at this.
Donald: I agree with you on the Fecundity cut. I was thinking out a dead creature for it but there aren't that many to take out for Mentor of the Meek. Any advice?
rlPanda: Beastmaster Ascension is pretty insane. I was playing yesturaday and manged to instant speed cheat Avenger of Zendikar into play with 8 tokens. I then played a land, then played Primeval Titan. Then I attacked for over 77 taking everyone out in 1 go. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is also very good at this.
Donald: I agree with you on the Fecundity cut. I was thinking out a dead creature for it but there aren't that many to take out for Mentor of the Meek. Any advice?
The cuts are getting really rough since all the cards are so good. I'd go like for like and cut Skullmulcher. Mentor of the Meek might be the stronger card drawing option though it does use a lot more mana in the long run. I was also thinking about Mana Reflection with my last round of cuts. My thinking being that I have enchantment tutors for Mirari's Wake if I need to double my mana and I added some accel that can't produce as much mana but produce it much sooner. And with Priest of Titania or a fully leveled Joraga Treespeaker I could potentially produce a large amount of mana.
Mana reflection is so good. I won a game of EDH last month because of Mana reflection. Helldozer destroyed all my lands and all I had left was Mana reflection and a forest. Next turn I played a Sol Ring. All of a sudden I could produce 6 mana with only 2 cards. Needless to say it wasn't long before a Primeval Titan got me back in the game before the Helldozer was killed.
I'm thinking about putting a Rhys deck together and I'm using this primer as a guide. The one card that I really don't get is Parallax Wave. You talk about it a bit in the primer but it just doesn't seem worth a spot to me.
I'm thinking about putting a Rhys deck together and I'm using this primer as a guide. The one card that I really don't get is Parallax Wave. You talk about it a bit in the primer but it just doesn't seem worth a spot to me.
Parallax Wave seems like a dead card until you play it. It has saved me from death from some monster creatures many times. It gets back creatures that have been stolen, it can Momentary Blink your creatures when it has one counter left. It is such awesome utility that can be continuously recurred. It is amazing.
I'm thinking about putting a Rhys deck together and I'm using this primer as a guide. The one card that I really don't get is Parallax Wave. You talk about it a bit in the primer but it just doesn't seem worth a spot to me.
It's a very versatile card. You can loop it with Eternal Witness, exile creatures permanently with instant speed enchantment removal, deter attackers, save your guys from wraths, etc. Even things like being able to wave out Reveillark or fetching it with Academy Rector with a sac outlet at instant speed can be powerful plays. It's also creature removal in enchantment form which is something a toolbox deck like this needs.
Not any from M12. The new Greaves are nice but the regular ones are better and I don't need the redundancy for them. I did update my list with changes for Commander finally and decided to hold off on Sun Titan for now and keep in the Lark combo.
-Vhitu-Gazi, the City Tree
-Selesnya Sanctuary
-Fresh Meat
+High Market
+Command Tower
+Martyr's Bond
Hopefully Martyr's Bond will be worth the six mana, seems very promising.
He's not bad but I'd rather play Triskelavus because it can deal direct damage to players and act as removal. Ultimately I think both are a little too expensive for what you get.
On the whole "Planeswalker" topic, Elspeth is much better than I think some people give it credit for. I have tested all her abilities and I think they are all very useful. Gaining life can be quite useful, and of course token generators are amazing in this deck. The one ability I really want to talk about is her ultimate. Destroying all "non-tokens" is a real beating. It has won me more games than I can remember. It should not be taken lightly.
Also, with the new Garruk, not that I think he fits in this deck, I'm sure it has a place in some token decks and card draw on a GREEN planeswalker seems ridiculous.
I love this deck Donald, keep up the good work. Lets hope Innistrad brings some insane card for Rhys.
I almost went back to the Helm but Martyr's Bond seems really powerful so I want to try it out.
Agreed, all 3 abilities are solid. Even the lifegain has been very helpful on occasion.
I think he might have a place in a fatty deck as another Soul's Majesty type card that doesn't target. I'm fine paying 2GGG to draw 9 cards from my Terastodon.
Thanks and I hope we get some goodies from Innistrad as well. Just not too many...I don't want to cut too much more.
I finally got to play Martyrs Bond yesterday... unfortunatey it came out a turn before I played a survival and subsequential revilark comboed out... although I will say this... martyrs bond with the combo makes it an auto scoop, whereas people will still insist on playing it out when they still have big ol fatties on their side elsewise.
EDIT: I would also like to mention how Martyr's Bond has a very powerful interaction with Springjack Pasture and High Market
What does everyone think about Natural Order?
I'd like to see your decklist, I've had this list basically the same for years so I could use some fresh insight.
Currently building a token power deck and was originally leaning toward G/W/B Ghave, but Rhys seems like it would be stronger.
Thanks and welcome to the forum!
I don't have much experience with Ghave but there are some very good looking lists around here. Ghave is more a combo deck while Rhys is a token swarm deck that can randomly combo out sometimes.
Personally, I have some cards I really liked.
Creature - Human Soldier 2W
Whenever another creature with power 2 or less enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay 1. If you do, draw a card.
Enchantment
If an effect would put one or more tokens onto the battlefield under your control, it puts twice that many tokens onto the battlefield instead.
Land
: Add to your mana pool.
2GW, T : Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control.
Too bad Garruk Relentless is considered black, because I really like it.
EDIT: So I went with the following changes, some from Innistrad and some others that I'm going to try out.
-Eternal Dragon - He seemed like an appropriate cut for a 2 drop ramp creature because he doesn't actually accelerate me.
-Primal Command - I had too many 5cc spells and this was one of the weaker tutors.
-Elspeth Tirel - Again too many 5cc spells and I have no tutors for her. She is very good however.
-Yavimaya Elder - Another good cut for a cheap ramper. He also falls at an awkward spot in my curve because I want to make a token turn 3 most games.
-Plains - Gavony Township seems really good and I like all my other colorless producing lands. I think this is the maximum number of them so if I add another in the future I'll have to cut one.
+Bloom Tender - I added in 3 cheap creatures that can tap for 2 mana. This gives me something to do turn 2 and allows me to play 5cc spells on turn 3.
+Priest of Titania - See above.
+Joraga Treespeaker - See above.
+Parallel Lives - Seems made for this deck.
+Gavony Township - Kind of expensive for an anthem but it just takes up a land slot so it's fine.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I still prefer being a grindy tokens deck that doesn't need the elf ramp, than a deck that can play a turn 3 5cc card.
Also Gavony Township > Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
Was thinking of replacing Bloom Tender from your list with that new card - Nevermore and calling Capsize. 'Coure, therre are still all those extra turn cards and the self-regenerating combos thanks to a Kozilek or Ulamog library refresh. Ultimately, the best way to stop him is get a quick kill.
Is Bloom Tender pretty cuttable in this list or am I missing some effect of it besides a two drop that ramps really well at the start?
Against blue decks, especially monoblue, I would run some or all of the following:
I played Choke for a number of years and it's very effective at hosing blue. If you need additional help there is also Seedtime and Defense Grid. Basically just run a bunch of color hosers and you should be fine.
Donald: You should test the rampers at lest. I tested them a while back and they're pretty irrelevant. Another issue I found with a turn 3 5cc card is that in multiplayer you make yourself a target and with enough players won't let you survive very long. I have a more conservitive play style in EDH other multiplayer games. That's why I like staying back playing enchantments until *BANG!*, I win.
On another note, I took a page out of DrHealex's book and removed City of Solitude from my list due to lack of counter spell decks in my meta. I also removed Oran Rief, the Vastwood for Gavony Township because I think they fit similar rolls, but The township does it better. Also, there is usually enough green mana when I play.
I really want a place for Mentor of the Meek. I was thinking taking out Fecundity for it, but that could actually lower the number of cards drawn overall. I still want to find a place for it though.
Also good call on the 'geddons for combating blue. Cutting Oran-Rief for the new land also seems fine. I think I can handle this many colorless lands but if not I will be doing the same thing.
EDIT: I'd recommend cutting something other than Fecundity. It's the only enchantment in the deck that draws cards and does so very well.
Anyone try to get away with making a token army then dropping something obscene like Coat of Arms or Overrun and then rawr-rawr-rawr!!
Also that new guy Essence of the Wild looks promising. Kinda obvious and scary threat to the board though - might get you too much unwanted attentions.
Donald: I agree with you on the Fecundity cut. I was thinking out a dead creature for it but there aren't that many to take out for Mentor of the Meek. Any advice?
The cuts are getting really rough since all the cards are so good. I'd go like for like and cut Skullmulcher. Mentor of the Meek might be the stronger card drawing option though it does use a lot more mana in the long run. I was also thinking about Mana Reflection with my last round of cuts. My thinking being that I have enchantment tutors for Mirari's Wake if I need to double my mana and I added some accel that can't produce as much mana but produce it much sooner. And with Priest of Titania or a fully leveled Joraga Treespeaker I could potentially produce a large amount of mana.
I never really liked Skullmulcher. He seemed fine but the Mentor of the meek is better, so I'll cut that. Thanks
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1959
Parallax Wave seems like a dead card until you play it. It has saved me from death from some monster creatures many times. It gets back creatures that have been stolen, it can Momentary Blink your creatures when it has one counter left. It is such awesome utility that can be continuously recurred. It is amazing.
It's a very versatile card. You can loop it with Eternal Witness, exile creatures permanently with instant speed enchantment removal, deter attackers, save your guys from wraths, etc. Even things like being able to wave out Reveillark or fetching it with Academy Rector with a sac outlet at instant speed can be powerful plays. It's also creature removal in enchantment form which is something a toolbox deck like this needs.