I just had a thought. If we get say for example Darksteelforge in our hand. I'd say that's a pretty high casting cost. The very reason we run Master Transmuter. She's great! I love the art and I remember several occassions abusing her ability with creatures that had come into play abilities. We don't abuse her ability in this deck especially if we play Torpor Orb. Anyways my thought was just like the graveyard isn't our friend and we just pop out a Elixer of Immortaility to put the cards back in our deck why can't we do the same if they come into our hand? This came to my mind when I looked at the card Scroll Rack.
I know Strip Mine is better than Wasteland, but you wouldn't run both right?
I don't run both, no, since imo the only time they're worthwhile to us is when we're soft locking with Crucible, and in that case Strip Mine is straight up better than Wasteland in just about every situation.
I like the Expedition Map because it helps us get ahold of Hall of the Bandit Lord giving Arcum haste.
It's too slow for my meta, particularly considering the fact that Hall of the Bandit Lord comes into play tapped and blows a turn even by itself. If your meta is slower than mine, though, you could probably make good use of it.
If I did consider running Kuldotha it would be because I'm worried about Arcum becoming worthless when our combo pieces are out.
I dunno what you mean. If our combo pieces are out, we've already won the game. And Arcum is never worthless--with Myr Turbine, which should almost always be your first tutor target, Arcum always has fodder, and if you're not searching for combo pieces, then you're searching for silver bullets, ramp, etc.
I am curious about Cathodion because he's 3 mana like Scuttlemutt, but can give us 3 mana after we sack him or is haveing the one mana from Scuttlemutt to help cast Arcum better?
Yes, having the 1 mana extra to help cast Arcum is way more valuable than a creature that dies and produces 3. It's all about casting Arcum fast, that's how we get our fastest wins. Not to mention if Cathodion gets burned on an opponent's turn before we can sac him we lose our 3 mana, which is a much bigger investment lost than if the same happened to Myr Moonvessel.
Myr Moonvessel really is, imo, the only viable member of the artifact creatures that sac for their casting cost.
I thought hard on Mimic Vat I might be reaching with this scenario. If arcum has haste and we get targeted with a destroy effect and don't want to lose him, but have no counter spells we could sac our dork and search for Mimic Vat and keep recurring Arcum with haste.
That would be viable if Mimic Vat created free clones of Arcum. Unfortunately you have to pay 3 each time, and that's debilitating when you're trying to win the game by turn 5 or 6 (especially considering our game-winning combo itself takes 2 to activate).
I think Null Brooch is a steep price especially only one time effect before our turn again.
Try it for yourself. Once Arcum's out we hardly need our hand anyway, so it's pretty much a Negate imprinted on Isochron Scepter, and moreover with all our artifact untap effects it's hardly limited to one use per turn. And unlike Mimic Vat or your other suggestion Lifeline, the brooch isn't only useful as protection for Arcum in the earlygame--it's great even into the lategame as we counter opponents' combo pieces, empty our hand for Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
I'm sure it's not a good idea because of all the exile stuff people run
Exile-based artifact removal is already one of our greatest enemies, and adding Mimic Vat would add another weakness for them to target, as you correctly identified.
just thought I'd ask what you think and also if you don't like that option what about Chalice of the Void? Instead of losing your whole hand you just lose only a few spells possibly.
I don't know where you're coming from with Chalice of the Void. It needs to be cast from the hand to get counters on it; if we tutor it onto the field with Arcum it would have 0 counters, which would be rather unhelpful.
We run Gilded Lotus which is 5 mana for 3 blue, but thran is 4 for 3 colorless. I know Gilded Lotus combos well with Filgree Sages with a Power Artifact on for infinite mana untap all artifacts. On it's own Filgree Sages is still a untap artifact effect we run several in this deck.
An artifact that costs 5 and provides UUU is EXTREMELY better than an artifact that costs 4 and provides 3. The standard set by grim monolith, basalt monolith, ring, vault, crypt, etc. is that a colorless mana rock should always produce mana equal to or, preferably, greater than its casting cost.
If we do run Null Brooch and are willing to discard our hand maybe we might consider Lion's Eye Diamond.
Thus far I haven't been running LED for the same reason I haven't been running card disadvantage moxen like Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond (see the "But Why Not X" section of the primer).
I've seen people run Lifeline in the situation we would use Null Brooch but thats only if its not a remove from game effect same with my Mimic vat scenario I don't know if it's worth it
I get targeted in my play group the most and this was FAR before I ever played Arcum. So naturally I became more of a control type player to buy me the time I needed to win.
You have to keep in mind that all the comments I'm giving you are from my perspective, which is a competitive combo meta. Your meta might be different than mine, and in that case you should customize your deck a little differently than mine. If you're really getting targeted that much that you're absolutely, positively convinced running Lifeline and Mimic Vat over other 'silver bullets' like Torpor Orb and Ensnaring Bridge would win you games, then by all means, that's what you should do.
My only concern which I'm sure is a big one is surviving without Arcum. Lets say worst case scenario we do get jester's capped TWICE and we get those combo pieces out of our reach could we survive?
Depends on how smart your opponents are in their card selection. For example, they might think it would be prudent to cap off Darksteel Forge, Mycosynth Lattice, and Nevinyrral's Disk. In reality that's a really, really bad choice, since all our important combos are still in place, and we can still easily win by prisoning them into a concession, mass artifact tokens, etc. Granted, Forge/Lattice/Disk is the fastest way for us to win, but it's not wholly crippling if we lose it.
The idea is not to let yourself fall into a situation where you'd get hit by Jester's Cap at all. For example, since Jester's Cap targets players, you could protect yourself with a tutored Witchbane Orb silver bullet. Or you could even use your own Jester's Cap to exile their Jester's Cap.
I see your running Torpor orb main board if that's in play trinket mage won't work should we take trinket mage out?
No. They're both really good cards, and they're hardly mutually exclusive since they come out at different stages of the game: you'd play Trinket Mage in the early game when you're looking for ramp or when you're going for a combo win and you're tutoring out Sensei's Divining Top. You'd play Torpor Orb in the mid-game or when you're going for a prison win to lock your opponents out of powerful ETBs like Azusa's Terastodon and utterly shut down certain enemy wincons like Sharuum combo or Animar combo.
is it better to run [grafdigger's cage] all the time?
Only if your meta is heavily based around GY/library cheaters, which isn't always the case.
If your always getting targeted what can you do to slow them down besides the possessed portal way?
The Possessed Portal way is really backbreaking for control players. It really is your go-to option.
The other option which works pretty well if your meta is really, really heavy earlygame control is sideboarding in mana denial options like Winter Orb, Ward of Bones, Static Orb, Hurkyll's Recall (for their mana rocks), and so forth.
I just had a thought. If we get say for example Darksteelforge in our hand. I'd say that's a pretty high casting cost.
If you draw Darksteel Forge, it's not a big deal. Remember: we win by generating infinite mana, drawing our deck into our hand, and then casting everything. Granted, before we combo off, we'd rather draw something else besides the Forge since it's basically a dead card in our hand, but it's not obnoxiously out of reach like it is if it's in the GY. It's the difference between a card that's secure but happens to be useless to us at that particular moment, and a card that's actually in a spot where it isn't secure and we need to invest time and resources to secure it.
I wouldn't run Scroll Rack myself since its use seems too limited, but if it's a pet card of yours or something you could probably get away with running it.
Thanks for answering my questions I just have a few more.
1. I might be bold for asking this one, but do you think Karn, Silver Golem is a win more card? I mean when we would use his ability wouldn't we have won the game already? If so he would be a expensive creature to sacrifice as well. We can't search for him besides Transmute Artifact and Tezzeret the Seeker if we pump him up enough of course. He would have to be in our hand. I'll admit I love his ability and the fact it's unique for this deck, but is it really that likely to help us win the game or just win it more and laugh in our opponents face? I've concluded Filigree Sages is weak because like Karn, Silver Golem it's hardly tutorable and is a rare occasion to have in your hand and enough mana to say we would be better saving our mana for a Counterspell and winning possibly faster. Once we have shroud on Arcum Dagsson and have repeated tokens pumping out we have 2 turns till we can win basically. I just don't see a window to throw out these cards where they would be more useful than throwing out something cheaper and having more artifacts to tap for Clock of Omens.
2. Copy Artifact/Sculpting Steel: I liked the positives you told me previously about these powerful cards, but I'm still not convinced. I like Phyrexian Metamorph because of the fact it can copy generals. That's not the case for Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel. We run our deck with a majority of artifacts which isn't the problem I'm having. My point is the same as I have for Karn, Silver Golem. Are they a win more card in the deck that can be replaced with something that will ultimately lead us to victory? Maybe more creatures to bump up the curve to 20 so we can statistically see at least 2 creatures in our hand even if we go first turn 3. I say that because essentially 1/5 of the deck would be creatures so every 5 cards we'd see a creature, so on turn 3 we'd seen at least 10 of those cards. At least we need 2 creatures to sac to get Swiftfoot Boots and Myr Turbine to keep rolling. I know if we add those as creatures considering because their mana cost is very cheap we have a 20 creature curve, but we have been looking for room for possibly Myr Sire and/or we could just throw in another mana dork like Alloy Myr. I know it's the worst one, but it could potentially help us cast Arcum Dagsson faster. They also have the same converted mana cost as each other. I did like when you said you could copy Myr Turbine on a Possessed Portal lock. It just seems that's the best it gets which is great, but might be a win more con I don't know.
3. Intuition: I know the graveyard isn't our friend, but I still like this card because one scenario we could search for Epochrasite, Myr Retriever, and Junk Diver if we need creatures really bad and can potentially recur if your opponents decide since Arcum Dagsson had hexproof/shroud they target the artifact dorks instead to buy time. Another would be to search for 3 counterspells and counter something deadly throw at you. I mean this card might deserve a second look at. It performs at instant speed and is cheap. Maybe could replace Thirst for Knowledge.
4. Scarecrone: at it's best it can serve as help for when you throw out a Possessed Portal. It's cheap and can recur creatures when necessary. The creature part is the only problem I have. On a earlier post you mentioned when there's something in the graveyard that you want it's usually a combo piece which isn't a creature. You can't really search for it either. I wonder if there could be something else better to help this deck out. I really like Jester's Cap.
5. Reshape: I saw your why not X section, but I mean we run Transmute Artifact. It's definitely better, but we don't run necessarily high mana cost artifacts to search.
Thanks for answering my questions I just have a few more.
Ask as many as you like. It's my job to answer them.
1. I might be bold for asking this one, but do you think Karn, Silver Golem is a win more card? I mean when we would use his ability wouldn't we have won the game already? If so he would be a expensive creature to sacrifice as well. We can't search for him besides Transmute Artifact and Tezzeret the Seeker if we pump him up enough of course. He would have to be in our hand.
My justification for running Karn is that he's a one-card contingency plan, similar to Possessed Portal (though somewhat weaker; I'd call portal our plan B, Karn is more our plan C or D).
With Mycosynth Lattice Karn gains the ability "1: target land's controller sacrifices it," which is enough to win a game all by itself as it can be activated at instant speed as soon as Karn comes down AND unlike other mld spells like Armageddon you can't simply counter Karn's ability. Beyond that, he's one of the only ways we can win with fatty combat damage if that becomes necessary (in a competitive one-on-one it generally won't, but in multiplayer ffa's outrageous things do happen).
And despite his high cmc of 5, he's still relatively easy to cast because he's all colorless and we have so many easy ways to generate colorless mana like Mana Vault and Mishra's Workshop (for this reason, if I'm looking only for a dork to sac, I'd actually prefer Karn to Master Transmuter).
I'll admit I love his ability and the fact it's unique for this deck, but is it really that likely to help us win the game or just win it more and laugh in our opponents face? I've concluded Filigree Sages is weak...
The difference between Karn and Filigree Sages is that Karn is a game-winning ability with only one other card that we can easily tutor for (Lattice), whereas Filigree Sages requires Power Artifact which we can't easily tutor for.
Try him for yourself; if you draw him in your hand, at best, he'll win you the game; at worst, he's a big dork.
it's hardly tutorable and is a rare occasion to have in your hand
Don't think about it that way. In Commander it's a rare occasion to have any given card in your hand. The idea is that in the event that we end up with Karn in our hand, he's a powerhouse. This means that our gameplay overall is more consistently strong, since having Karn in the deck broadens the number of possible hands that are game-winning.
Besides, Counterspell is hardly tutorable and it's an equally rare occasion we have it in our hand, and it's not a bad card.
Once we have shroud on Arcum Dagsson and have repeated tokens pumping out we have 2 turns till we can win basically
In a best-case scenario, you're correct--but sometimes things go wrong, particularly when you're playing against 3+ other opponents. We can't build our deck around Arcum, otherwise if we can't stick him then we lose. Instead, he's just the grease between the gears--if we do stick him, that's a big help, he speeds things along tremendously, but the game-winning machine is in the 99.
2. Copy Artifact/Sculpting Steel... I say that because essentially 1/5 of the deck would be creatures so every 5 cards we'd see a creature, so on turn 3 we'd seen at least 10 of those cards. At least we need 2 creatures to sac to get Swiftfoot Boots and Myr Turbine to keep rolling. I know if we add those as creatures considering because their mana cost is very cheap we have a 20 creature curve, but we have been looking for room for possibly Myr Sire and/or we could just throw in another mana dork like Alloy Myr. I know it's the worst one, but it could potentially help us cast Arcum Dagsson faster.
See, you're thinking about it the wrong way again. If we streamline the deck to focus more about Arcum, our deck actually becomes weaker, because we become dependent on him. A resolved Meddling Mage, Nevermore, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, etc. and we're boned.
Cards like Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel add versatility. They can do so many things and are helpful in so many ways when Arcum is on OR off the field. Myr Sire and Alloy Myr, on the other hand, are jank without Arcum.
Maybe my primer is written too much like Arcum is a necessity. He's really not. You can win the game just as quickly even if he never hits the field, and it's because of the intense synergy among the 99.
3. Intuition: I know the graveyard isn't our friend, but I still like this card because [1] one scenario we could search for Epochrasite, Myr Retriever, and Junk Diver if we need creatures really bad and can potentially recur if your opponents decide since Arcum Dagsson had hexproof/shroud [2] they target the artifact dorks instead to buy time. [3] Another would be to search for 3 counterspells and counter something deadly throw at you.
[1] You shouldn't ever have to tutor for a dork, particularly a tutor that costs 2U. If you have no dorks or artifact manlands in your opening hand, mulligan.
[2] If your opponents are targeting your dorks to buy time, they're doing it wrong. You always sac a dork on your opponent's turn in response to something they do, or on their end step when they're tapped out. And beyond that, they shouldn't be wasting removal on your dorks when they could be using it on your combo pieces.
[3] Using Intuition as a counterspell is a pretty inefficient move. Let's say you're running both Pact of Negation and Force of Will in your deck. Using Intuition as a counterspell, you'd reveal FoW, Pact, and Mana Drain; your opponent would obviously put FoW and Pact to your grave and Drain to your hand, and then you'd attempt to cast Drain. That's a 2UUU counterspell, ew. And on top of that you now have no free countermagic to protect yourself when you combo off because they're both in your GY.
I really like Intuition, too, as a card, since I play 43lands.dec in Legacy where it's a complete house, but I'm convinced it doesn't fit in Arcum. You really need complete mastery of your GY to get the full mileage out of it as a triple Demonic Tutor, and while our GY isn't entirely out of reach, we're really not the best of friends.
4. Scarecrone: at it's best it can serve as help for when you throw out a Possessed Portal. It's cheap and can recur creatures when necessary. The creature part is the only problem I have. On a earlier post you mentioned when there's something in the graveyard that you want it's usually a combo piece which isn't a creature. You can't really search for it either.
You wouldn't ever search for it. It's just a cheap dork that recurs other dorks if necessary, which like you correctly pointed out can be a major help in the early game or under a Portal lock. And if the recursion ability isn't necessary then it sacs itself to draw a card. It's rare that you find a cheap dork with that kind of utility potential.
You could probably get away with switching Scarecrone for Myr Sire if you really wanted to, but I wouldn't swap it for Jester's Cap because that actually changes the ratio of creatures to non-creatures. If you're going to remove a dork, replace it with a dork; if you're going to add a silver bullet like Jester's Cap, then take out another silver bullet that isn't as useful for your metagame.
5. Reshape: I saw your why not X section, but I mean we run Transmute Artifact. It's definitely better, but we don't run necessarily high mana cost artifacts to search.
Tutor spells are in the deck to A) decrease our dependency on Arcum and B) augment our tempo if we do manage to stick Arcum. That is to say, we use them to tutor the same things we'd be tutoring with Arcum, many of which are in fact expensive, like Clock of Omens, Possessed Portal, or in my above example with Karn, Mycosynth Lattice. Using Reshape to fetch any of those isn't just slower than using Transmute Artifact...it's practically impossible (in a competitive game, anyway). Reshape adds to the mana cost of the tutor target, whereas Transmute Artifact subtracts from that mana cost.
We NEVER use tutor spells to search for a dork or a non-combo mana rock like Sol Ring.
I honestly don't mean this offensively, but if I were you I wouldn't worry about switching cards around until I really mastered the deck's "ethos" or mentality. I've noticed as you've been defending your card suggestions that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) you're simply thinking about the deck's fundamentals in the wrong way (well, "wrong" in my opinion, anyway), in terms of what to tutor for, when to tutor, how to tutor, when to mull, and so forth. Learning how to make these decisions will net you more wins than any choice of cards. In my responses to your suggestions I've been trying to explain what I believe is the correct way to make these decisions (of course I could be wrong, and I'm always reflecting upon my own philosophies). Like I said, it might partially be my fault--maybe the way I wrote the primer is giving people the wrong ideas. I'll keep looking into it.
New update to the primer text attempting to distinguish this primer from the newer one in response to today's committee ruling.
Additionally, in a little while I'll be adding some of the cards suggested above that I ruled out to the main primer thread in the "Cards I Don't Run" section.
Of the 158/249 cards in M14 that have been spoiled at the time of this post, none of the artifacts are relevant to Arcum.
Hey guys this is my list. I am going for cuttthroat and competetive. Let me know what you think I should cut or add. I do want to add an epochrosite as I have a foil one. Also if you think something blows I will try to defend it. If I can't then it will probably end up being cut.
Hey guys this is my list. I am going for cuttthroat and competetive. Let me know what you think I should cut or add. I do want to add an epochrosite as I have a foil one. Also if you think something blows I will try to defend it. If I can't then it will probably end up being cut.
I'm about to head out the door in just a short while and I'll post more in-depth when I get back, but before I leave here's a few preliminary notes on a few of your singletons:
As you can see in the previous pages of the thread, other people have suggested Guardian Idol, and I've never really liked him. "But he taps for mana and also becomes a creature," you could say, and yes that's true, but unfortunately unlike the artifact manlands like Mishra's Factory and Inkmoth Nexus (which we love to see in an opening hand), you actually have to invest mana to make Idol a creature (in other words, he doesn't pay for his own ability). Mana dorks should produce, not consume. I generally find myself tapping out pretty much always on the early turns between casting Arcum, equipping Arcum, and casting countermagic, so the idea of having to spend MORE mana on Guardian Idol just seems bad to me. If you're going to cut a card for your foiled Epochrasite, I'd suggest you cut this guy.
IIRC Darksteel Reactor is one of your "pet cards"? I can argue 'till the sun goes down why you don't really need it, but if it's a card that's near and dear to you personally, and it makes the deck more fun for you to play, then that's good and I won't try to convince you otherwise (so long as you recognize that it's a slot that could be spent on something more efficient).
Is Magosi, the Waterveil another pet card? If it isn't, I generally avoid running it in my decklists, because as far as extra turns go it's only balanced (i.e. too weak :p) for my tastes. If you insist on running it, though, there's a neat infinite turns combo with Magosi, Rings of Brighthearth, and Candelabra of Tawnos that user Jivanmukta told me about. Unfortunately Candelabra is a pretty expensive card because of its rarity and frequent use in Legacy, so if you don't have one lying around already it's probably not worth it to buy one just for this combo.
I see you're running Tormod's Crypt. As I wrote in the primer, for a grave hate silver bullet I typically prefer Grafdigger's Cage because you can simply "set it and forget it"--that is to say, it works all the time as soon as it resolves, unlike Tormod's Crypt which only works once and needs to be popped at just the right time (which is a challenge in itself). Not to mention the fact that the Cage also stops library shenanigans like Bribery, Panglacial Wurm (common in Azusa lists), and so forth. Moreover, Grafdigger's Cage affects all players instead of just the one I'm targeting (which is crucial if more than one opponent is playing a GY-based deck).
All that said, the Cage doesn't exile the cards in the GY. If for whatever reason you feel it's important that those cards need to go away permanently, then keep Tormod's Crypt. But in every common competitive GY scenario I've ever run into (e.g. Hermit Druid combo, Sharuum combo, Ghave combo, wombo combo, Karador, etc.) the Cage gets it done better. It simply says "no" to these strategies so long as it's out.
Where's Staff of Domination? It's one of the greatest unbannings to affect our list since sliced bread. I have to head out now but if you're confused about Staff I explained its advantages in the primer.
1. When I was making a list for this deck, the template I was using was a very older list. I will cut the idol for epochriste.
2-3. They are pet cards. I am unsure about wanting to cut, as with infinite turns it presents a hard lock. If this combo is weak and of no use in testing it will be replaced. If I were to cut Magosi what should it be replaced with? An Island?
4. Exiling the cards from a players yard is key in my meta. I will try to find space for cage as I can see it's use.
5. Again this list was based on stuff for an older one. I will find space for it. Maybe cut Planar Portal? They essentially do the same thing. What do you think?
Questions:
My question is how do you guys feel about Hall of the Bandit Lord? Getting haste is awesome, even at the cost of 3 life; but it comes into play tapped. I can see arguments for and against but I would like to hear what yall think.
EDIT: the deck wins by generating infinite 1/1s correct? If we do so, is there a way of giving them haste or do we have to let our opponents get another turn to try something? Thats why I like Magosi as it prevents them from being able to respond(unless they have an instant of some kind).
As I come up with questions/ideas/debates I will post them.
OK here we go:
2-3. They are pet cards. I am unsure about wanting to cut, as with infinite turns it presents a hard lock. If this combo is weak and of no use in testing it will be replaced. If I were to cut Magosi what should it be replaced with? An Island?
What infinite turns combo are you thinking of? The only one I know with Magosi requires Candelabra of Tawnos, which is a really expensive card that not many people own.
And yeah, you'd replace it with an island.
4. Exiling the cards from a players yard is key in my meta. I will try to find space for cage as I can see it's use.
Don't try to force in the Cage if you really don't think it'll help. If it's all about the exile then you're probably better off with Tormod's + Relic of Progenitus rather than Tormod's + Cage. In all the scenarios I run into, Cage gets me more milage than Tormod's, but only you know your own meta.
5. Again this list was based on stuff for an older one. I will find space for it. Maybe cut Planar Portal? They essentially do the same thing. What do you think?
If you check my changelog on the primer you'll see that I ultimately cut Planar Portal around the same time I added Staff of Domination.
My question is how do you guys feel about Hall of the Bandit Lord? Getting haste is awesome, even at the cost of 3 life; but it comes into play tapped. I can see arguments for and against but I would like to hear what yall think.
Try it for yourself, you won't be disappointed. It's well worth the CIPT once you learn to play around it.
EDIT: the deck wins by generating infinite 1/1s correct? If we do so, is there a way of giving them haste or do we have to let our opponents get another turn to try something? Thats why I like Magosi as it prevents them from being able to respond(unless they have an instant of some kind).
Well actually most of my wins come from my opponents conceding. Once you get your infinite mana + infinite draw (@ instant speed with Staff of Domination), smart opponents will simply concede, as the game is already over. If they want to watch you play out your winning turn, though, then what you'd do is plop down Forge/Disk/Lattice (countering anything problematic, since by now you'll have drawn your entire deck and have all your countermagic in hand and infinite mana to cast it with). Now you can destroy all your opponents' permanents every single turn, so they should really concede here. But if they STILL don't, then, yes, then you generate infinite tokens and kill them manually, or you could even just swing with Arcum over and over and over again until they're all dead, doesn't really matter.
So your win is pretty much secured once you get infinite mana and infinite draw. That's why the Rings/Basalt/Staff combo is a lot better than Rings/Basalt/Top, because when you use Staff the draws are at instant speed, so you can just keep drawing your deck in response and then counter whatever they throw at you.
Pretty much the only thing that can stop you once you assemble Rings/Top/Staff is an effect that freezes the stack, and those cards are few and far between...Split Second effects like Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, etc. will do it.
If I recall correctly, you ultimately need a third combo piece (Amulet of Vigor, Candelabra of Tawnos) or a second Rings of Brighthearth for any infinite turn shenanigans with Magosi and Rings.
If I recall correctly, you ultimately need a third combo piece (Amulet of Vigor, Candelabra of Tawnos) or a second Rings of Brighthearth for any infinite turn shenanigans with Magosi and Rings.
I've thought about what you've said. Thanks again for the insight and being humble with your responses. I'm not afraid to admit I'm not the best player that is certain. With your reply's though it makes me feel like I know the deck that much better. The last 2 cards I am uncertain about is Shimmer Myr/Vendalken Orrery. I like both for different reasons, but don't know which is better for the deck or neither. Shimmer Myr is a cheap dork with some utility for all the other artifacts in the deck. While Vendalken Orrery is searchable through Arcum at instant speed if need be. I still like myr sire, but like you said if I put it in the deck I should replace it with a creature instead. I wouldn't take out Scarecrone with the convincing you gave me earlier. Probably none of the creatures listed I'd switch for it honestly. Buried Ruin I wasn't positive if you'd put it in the deck with your reply on it. If you could explain the reason for running specifically 18 creatures and 37 lands. Like I said earlier if you ran 20 creatures a creature should pop up 1 out of 5 cards. I'm sure it's a little less because of the man lands. I'd like a little confirmation though to put me at ease. With 33 lands were getting 1 land every 3 cards so by turn 10 we'd have at least 3 lands in our hand statistically speaking that is. Is that enough? Should we be running fetch lands to thin the amount of lands we draw? I'm not sure if we should go this route, but I'd like your opinion on the matter. You've already helped me so much. My least favorite cards in the deck are definitely Svyelunite Temple and Thirst for Knowledge. I might need more convincing. Lastly the expedition map dilemma. We run Tolarian West because it's a land right? Easy spot to fill? I am convinced on all the other cards you've talked to me about. I think if you explain why we run a certain amount of lands and creatures I'm sure all my answers will be solved. Basically my whole deck is your list. It's that good!
If I recall correctly, you ultimately need a third combo piece (Amulet of Vigor, Candelabra of Tawnos) or a second Rings of Brighthearth for any infinite turn shenanigans with Magosi and Rings.
That's what I thought too. The key issue is that Magosi comes into play tapped.
@FettMan, if Magosi is one of your pet cards and you really, really feel attached to it, you can probably throw in Amulet of Vigor to the Arcum list to complete the Magosi/Rings combo (I assume you don't own a Candelabra of Tawnos). The Amulet is not really all that great of a card, but at least it's an artifact, and I'm sure it has some minor usefulness on its own. I wouldn't recommend it, but if you like Magosi and winning with infinite turns would really make you happy, then go for it.
I've thought about what you've said. Thanks again for the insight and being humble with your responses. I'm not afraid to admit I'm not the best player that is certain.
I didn't mean to insult you if you felt like I did. I was just saying, judging from your questions, that it seems like the issues you're wondering about all have to do with the decision-making process as an Arcum pilot, and that's something that can only come with practice and playtesting.
The last 2 cards I am uncertain about is Shimmer Myr/Vendalken Orrery. I like both for different reasons, but don't know which is better for the deck or neither.[QUOTE]
I run neither, because as I mentioned above I can't foresee many scenarios in which I'd need absolutely need instant speed artifact casting. If I had to choose, though, I'd probably say Shimmer Myr.
The ONLY scenario I can see instant-speed artifact casting being necessary is if, during Rings/Basalt/Staff that lets you draw your deck, your opponents throw a ton of spells at you and you somehow run out of countermagic (like you empty your entire deck of countermagic and still don't have enough). In that case instant-speed artifact casting would let you plop down Disk/Forge/Lattice instantly to secure your win. But it's so rare I just never see it happening.
But working off of that scenario, you wouldn't need Vedalken Orrery because you wouldn't be tutoring it out with Arcum anyway. Shimmer Myr would do the job just fine, and he doubles as a dork and has a nice CMC, so if I had to choose one or the other I'd run Shimmer Myr.
[QUOTE]I still like myr sire, but like you said if I put it in the deck I should replace it with a creature instead...If you could explain the reason for running specifically 18 creatures and 37 lands. Like I said earlier if you ran 20 creatures a creature should pop up 1 out of 5 cards. I'm sure it's a little less because of the man lands.
Keep in mind that we run 3 artifact manlands (Mishra's Factory, Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus) and they really do make a big difference.
I don't have any complicated math to show you that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that 18 creatures and 37 lands is the magical proportion to make Arcum run flawlessly. You could probably get away with running 20 creatures, or 16 creatures, or anywhere in between.
My current ratio has worked great for me personally, and someone unfamiliar with the deck might get overzealous and start cutting too many dorks or putting too many in, so as a safe "rule of thumb" I simply advise people conserve my ratios, because I they're proven to work well.
Should we be running fetch lands to thin the amount of lands we draw?
I read an article somewhere a while back that statistically showed that the deck-thinning properties of fetchlands are pretty much negligible, even moreso for 100-card decks over 60-card decks. It probably wouldn't hurt to include them, but keep in mind that they do have additional weaknesses (for example, they get hosed by Blood Moon) that Islands don't.
My least favorite deck are definitely Svyelunite Temple and Thirst for Knowledge. I might need more convincing.
If you really don't like them, you can replace them with more palatable substitutes. I like Svyelunite Temple because it can power out T2 Arcums even though it sacs (which is why we run Crystal Vein), and for such a great effect the CIPT hardly matters once you learn to play around it (which is why we run Hall of the Bandit Lord). I like Thirst for Knowledge because it's an instant-speed draw-three for an easy 3 CMC, but if you replace it with another great draw spell like Windfall or something because you're just not feeling it, then it probably won't make THAT much of a difference one way or another (it's just a support card, after all).
Lastly the expedition map dilemma. We run Tolarian West because it's a land right? Easy spot to fill?
There's only 2 or 3 lands we'd ever actually want to tutor for: Hall of the Bandit Lord, Academy Ruins, and Cavern of Souls (you should probably throw in Cavern somewhere, I just noticed I hadn't thrown it in my decklist yet). So I simply see no need at the moment to load up on slow land tutors like Expedition Map.
I'm glad you like the list. I'm always happy to help if you have questions.
Well it goes infinite with Mycosynth Lattice and Clock of Omens.
Well OK, but so does everything else.
I mean if you already have Rings/Basalt/Staff AND Lattice/Clock assembled, such that you have infinite mana, infinite draw, and infinite untaps of any permanent, all at instant speed, you should be able to win in any way you can imagine, not just Magosi infinite turns.
But like I said, if it's a card you like, don't let me stop you. At the end of the day, if one "suboptimal" card will make the deck a hundred times more fun, then it's worth it.
How do you feel about Future Sight and Magus of the Future? The list I was using as a template used both of these, but it appears to me that both are useless when the deck runs basalt/staff/rings.
Edit: Also I have a question to your 3 step win. Why shouldn't I get Forge before Rings? I know after the Rings you can copy and get the Monolith and Staff, but don't people try to blow Rings up when they learn of its power?
Edit 2: How does Knowledge Pool and Teferi create a lock?
Edit 3: Whats the game plan for decks like Zur that have counter backup out the ass?
Running the 4 U-fetchlands makes your Crucible so much better. As well as your Sensei's Divining Top via the shuffle effect. While these might be small advantages, it can make or break a game at times.
Another thing Expedition Map can do is to get a fodder if you need one via the 3 artifact manlands. Also, in my list where I don't run any 1-drop artifact creature, it makes my Trinket Mage live when I need fodder.
As for Sveyulenite, I run Sapprazzan Skerry in its place, so I can use the 2 mana twice. Which basically means I drop Arcum as early as turn 2 or 3, or drop some mana rocks which negates the loss of the land after the 2nd use.
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Running the 4 U-fetchlands makes your Crucible so much better. As well as your Sensei's Divining Top via the shuffle effect. While these might be small advantages, it can make or break a game at times.
Another thing Expedition Map can do is to get a fodder if you need one via the 3 artifact manlands. Also, in my list where I don't run any 1-drop artifact creature, it makes my Trinket Mage live when I need fodder.
As for Sveyulenite, I run Sapprazzan Skerry in its place, so I can use the 2 mana twice. Which basically means I drop Arcum as early as turn 2 or 3, or drop some mana rocks which negates the loss of the land after the 2nd use.
Yeah, you're right on the fetchlands, I was only thinking about the minimal deck-thining, didn't think about the Crucible interaction. Critical oversight on my part. I'll add them ASAP and include a section in the primer to explain them. Thanks!
Getting a fodder with Map is something I'm more skeptical about. If you have a hand with no fodder, you should mull, not Trinket Mage -> Expedition Map -> pop map -> play manland (requires land drop), that just seems like it would take too long. Plus I already run (controversially) Myr Moonvessel so if I really ended up in a spot like that I'd just go Trinket Mage -> Myr Moonvessel.
How has Saprazzan Skerry been working out for you? My concern is that you have to blow a counter every time you tap it, unlike Svyelunite Temple which you can save 'till you pop it. Sometimes, like for example if I'm at a table with 2 or more MBC players loaded to the gills with removal, I wouldn't explode into a turn-2 Arcum knowing that he'd invariably eat a Doom Blade. In that case I'd want to save my land pop for when it's safer, and Skerry doesn't let you do that (every tap is essentially a "pop").
If our staff got exiled at split second speed we could use divining top at instant speed if we ran shimmer myr. That's probably the best case scenario I thought of. If that's not a good enough reason I won't run it. Some infinite combos that if you wanted to squeeze in you could, but r basically pointless because you should win the game already if you do have unlimited mana n infinite untapping. Lux cannon would destroy all your opponents permanents n magistrate's scepter gives you infinite turns. Definitely not our best winning cards bc the staff is good on its own but these cards need the infinite mana n untap.
How do you feel about Future Sight and Magus of the Future? The list I was using as a template used both of these, but it appears to me that both are useless when the deck runs basalt/staff/rings.
The Future Sight effect is hugely powerful as it effectively allows you to draw many, many cards per turn, and if you're going for a more controllish Arcum build then you should definitely include them. My build is more combo-oriented, and the only combo that works with them is Future Sight/Magus of the Future + Etherium Sculptor/Cloud Key + Sensei's Divining Top, which is another way to draw your deck...essentially, you activate Top's draw ability, it goes to the top of your library, you cast it from the top of your library (using Future Sight or Magus) for free (due to Sculptor or Key), and then you repeat. I don't like this combo much because you can't tutor very easily for it (Sculptor and Magus are creatures, Future Sight is an enchantment) and it's sorcery speed.
Edit: Also I have a question to your 3 step win. Why shouldn't I get Forge before Rings? I know after the Rings you can copy and get the Monolith and Staff, but don't people try to blow Rings up when they learn of its power?
If they're smart, yeah, but ofc if they're smart they'll also try to blow up Forge (remember that the three most common colors in competitive metas are WUB, and the majority of artifact removal is W exile-based like Return to Dust). Also keep in mind that putting Forge out first makes you delay your win for a turn, which might be the difference between winning and losing. Putting rings out first OR forge out first is a big target either way and it's up to you to budget your countermagic, anticipate your opponents' plays, have backup plans ready, etc.
Edit 2: How does Knowledge Pool and Teferi create a lock?
Teferi says "Opponents may cast spells only any time they may cast a sorcery." Remember that Sorcery spells can only be cast under two conditions:
It's your pre- or post-combat main phase.
The stack is empty (this is the critical one).
When Knowledge Pool is out, every time an opponent casts a spell, the spell is exiled and Knowledge Pool's ability goes on the stack. Thus the stack is not empty, and opponents can't cast any spells. The end result is that opponents can't cast spells, period.
Whenever you see Teferi in the command zone, you can expect he'll work toward a Pool victory as much as you can expect the sun to rise tomorrow morning.
Edit 3: Whats the game plan for decks like Zur that have counter backup out the ass?
So do you think I should cut Future Sight and Magus of the Future? The earliest I can get them out is turn 3 and by then wouldn't I want to have counter magic up? Also if I have a lot of non basics in the beginning of the game that don't tap for U, playing them is going to be difficult.
Also I think I should acquire a Cavern right? Prolly cut a basic for it?
I don't run both, no, since imo the only time they're worthwhile to us is when we're soft locking with Crucible, and in that case Strip Mine is straight up better than Wasteland in just about every situation.
It's too slow for my meta, particularly considering the fact that Hall of the Bandit Lord comes into play tapped and blows a turn even by itself. If your meta is slower than mine, though, you could probably make good use of it.
I dunno what you mean. If our combo pieces are out, we've already won the game. And Arcum is never worthless--with Myr Turbine, which should almost always be your first tutor target, Arcum always has fodder, and if you're not searching for combo pieces, then you're searching for silver bullets, ramp, etc.
Yes, having the 1 mana extra to help cast Arcum is way more valuable than a creature that dies and produces 3. It's all about casting Arcum fast, that's how we get our fastest wins. Not to mention if Cathodion gets burned on an opponent's turn before we can sac him we lose our 3 mana, which is a much bigger investment lost than if the same happened to Myr Moonvessel.
Myr Moonvessel really is, imo, the only viable member of the artifact creatures that sac for their casting cost.
That would be viable if Mimic Vat created free clones of Arcum. Unfortunately you have to pay 3 each time, and that's debilitating when you're trying to win the game by turn 5 or 6 (especially considering our game-winning combo itself takes 2 to activate).
Try it for yourself. Once Arcum's out we hardly need our hand anyway, so it's pretty much a Negate imprinted on Isochron Scepter, and moreover with all our artifact untap effects it's hardly limited to one use per turn. And unlike Mimic Vat or your other suggestion Lifeline, the brooch isn't only useful as protection for Arcum in the earlygame--it's great even into the lategame as we counter opponents' combo pieces, empty our hand for Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
Exile-based artifact removal is already one of our greatest enemies, and adding Mimic Vat would add another weakness for them to target, as you correctly identified.
I don't know where you're coming from with Chalice of the Void. It needs to be cast from the hand to get counters on it; if we tutor it onto the field with Arcum it would have 0 counters, which would be rather unhelpful.
An artifact that costs 5 and provides UUU is EXTREMELY better than an artifact that costs 4 and provides 3. The standard set by grim monolith, basalt monolith, ring, vault, crypt, etc. is that a colorless mana rock should always produce mana equal to or, preferably, greater than its casting cost.
Thus far I haven't been running LED for the same reason I haven't been running card disadvantage moxen like Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond (see the "But Why Not X" section of the primer).
. Lifeline also doesn't work against sweepers like Wrath of God and Decree of Pain.
You have to keep in mind that all the comments I'm giving you are from my perspective, which is a competitive combo meta. Your meta might be different than mine, and in that case you should customize your deck a little differently than mine. If you're really getting targeted that much that you're absolutely, positively convinced running Lifeline and Mimic Vat over other 'silver bullets' like Torpor Orb and Ensnaring Bridge would win you games, then by all means, that's what you should do.
Depends on how smart your opponents are in their card selection. For example, they might think it would be prudent to cap off Darksteel Forge, Mycosynth Lattice, and Nevinyrral's Disk. In reality that's a really, really bad choice, since all our important combos are still in place, and we can still easily win by prisoning them into a concession, mass artifact tokens, etc. Granted, Forge/Lattice/Disk is the fastest way for us to win, but it's not wholly crippling if we lose it.
The worst case scenario is if they cap off something like Rings, Lattice, Possessed Portal, Power Artifact, Staff of Domination, and maybe Clock of Omens or Tezzeret the Seeker. That's pretty much all of our power pieces down the drain, and at that point I'd concede.
The idea is not to let yourself fall into a situation where you'd get hit by Jester's Cap at all. For example, since Jester's Cap targets players, you could protect yourself with a tutored Witchbane Orb silver bullet. Or you could even use your own Jester's Cap to exile their Jester's Cap.
No. They're both really good cards, and they're hardly mutually exclusive since they come out at different stages of the game: you'd play Trinket Mage in the early game when you're looking for ramp or when you're going for a combo win and you're tutoring out Sensei's Divining Top. You'd play Torpor Orb in the mid-game or when you're going for a prison win to lock your opponents out of powerful ETBs like Azusa's Terastodon and utterly shut down certain enemy wincons like Sharuum combo or Animar combo.
Only if your meta is heavily based around GY/library cheaters, which isn't always the case.
The Possessed Portal way is really backbreaking for control players. It really is your go-to option.
The other option which works pretty well if your meta is really, really heavy earlygame control is sideboarding in mana denial options like Winter Orb, Ward of Bones, Static Orb, Hurkyll's Recall (for their mana rocks), and so forth.
You can use Tezzeret the Seeker or Master Transmuter in place of Arcum in a pinch if you're really having trouble sticking him specifically (e.g. if he keeps getting named with Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage, etc.)
At the end of the day, playing archenemy against a table full of MBC/MUC/variants is a tough matchup for any deck, including ours.
If you draw Darksteel Forge, it's not a big deal. Remember: we win by generating infinite mana, drawing our deck into our hand, and then casting everything. Granted, before we combo off, we'd rather draw something else besides the Forge since it's basically a dead card in our hand, but it's not obnoxiously out of reach like it is if it's in the GY. It's the difference between a card that's secure but happens to be useless to us at that particular moment, and a card that's actually in a spot where it isn't secure and we need to invest time and resources to secure it.
I wouldn't run Scroll Rack myself since its use seems too limited, but if it's a pet card of yours or something you could probably get away with running it.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
1. I might be bold for asking this one, but do you think Karn, Silver Golem is a win more card? I mean when we would use his ability wouldn't we have won the game already? If so he would be a expensive creature to sacrifice as well. We can't search for him besides Transmute Artifact and Tezzeret the Seeker if we pump him up enough of course. He would have to be in our hand. I'll admit I love his ability and the fact it's unique for this deck, but is it really that likely to help us win the game or just win it more and laugh in our opponents face? I've concluded Filigree Sages is weak because like Karn, Silver Golem it's hardly tutorable and is a rare occasion to have in your hand and enough mana to say we would be better saving our mana for a Counterspell and winning possibly faster. Once we have shroud on Arcum Dagsson and have repeated tokens pumping out we have 2 turns till we can win basically. I just don't see a window to throw out these cards where they would be more useful than throwing out something cheaper and having more artifacts to tap for Clock of Omens.
2. Copy Artifact/Sculpting Steel: I liked the positives you told me previously about these powerful cards, but I'm still not convinced. I like Phyrexian Metamorph because of the fact it can copy generals. That's not the case for Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel. We run our deck with a majority of artifacts which isn't the problem I'm having. My point is the same as I have for Karn, Silver Golem. Are they a win more card in the deck that can be replaced with something that will ultimately lead us to victory? Maybe more creatures to bump up the curve to 20 so we can statistically see at least 2 creatures in our hand even if we go first turn 3. I say that because essentially 1/5 of the deck would be creatures so every 5 cards we'd see a creature, so on turn 3 we'd seen at least 10 of those cards. At least we need 2 creatures to sac to get Swiftfoot Boots and Myr Turbine to keep rolling. I know if we add those as creatures considering because their mana cost is very cheap we have a 20 creature curve, but we have been looking for room for possibly Myr Sire and/or we could just throw in another mana dork like Alloy Myr. I know it's the worst one, but it could potentially help us cast Arcum Dagsson faster. They also have the same converted mana cost as each other. I did like when you said you could copy Myr Turbine on a Possessed Portal lock. It just seems that's the best it gets which is great, but might be a win more con I don't know.
3. Intuition: I know the graveyard isn't our friend, but I still like this card because one scenario we could search for Epochrasite, Myr Retriever, and Junk Diver if we need creatures really bad and can potentially recur if your opponents decide since Arcum Dagsson had hexproof/shroud they target the artifact dorks instead to buy time. Another would be to search for 3 counterspells and counter something deadly throw at you. I mean this card might deserve a second look at. It performs at instant speed and is cheap. Maybe could replace Thirst for Knowledge.
4. Scarecrone: at it's best it can serve as help for when you throw out a Possessed Portal. It's cheap and can recur creatures when necessary. The creature part is the only problem I have. On a earlier post you mentioned when there's something in the graveyard that you want it's usually a combo piece which isn't a creature. You can't really search for it either. I wonder if there could be something else better to help this deck out. I really like Jester's Cap.
5. Reshape: I saw your why not X section, but I mean we run Transmute Artifact. It's definitely better, but we don't run necessarily high mana cost artifacts to search.
Ask as many as you like. It's my job to answer them.
My justification for running Karn is that he's a one-card contingency plan, similar to Possessed Portal (though somewhat weaker; I'd call portal our plan B, Karn is more our plan C or D).
With Mycosynth Lattice Karn gains the ability "1: target land's controller sacrifices it," which is enough to win a game all by itself as it can be activated at instant speed as soon as Karn comes down AND unlike other mld spells like Armageddon you can't simply counter Karn's ability. Beyond that, he's one of the only ways we can win with fatty combat damage if that becomes necessary (in a competitive one-on-one it generally won't, but in multiplayer ffa's outrageous things do happen).
And despite his high cmc of 5, he's still relatively easy to cast because he's all colorless and we have so many easy ways to generate colorless mana like Mana Vault and Mishra's Workshop (for this reason, if I'm looking only for a dork to sac, I'd actually prefer Karn to Master Transmuter).
The difference between Karn and Filigree Sages is that Karn is a game-winning ability with only one other card that we can easily tutor for (Lattice), whereas Filigree Sages requires Power Artifact which we can't easily tutor for.
Imagine this:
T3 Gilded Lotus
T4 play Karn, play something else threatening as a distraction (maybe Torpor Orb, people seem to hate Torpor Orb)
T5 tap lotus, Transmute Artifact lotus into Mycosynth Lattice, dump 5+ mana into Karn's ability for an opponents-only uncounterable Armageddon, opponents scoop.
Try him for yourself; if you draw him in your hand, at best, he'll win you the game; at worst, he's a big dork.
Don't think about it that way. In Commander it's a rare occasion to have any given card in your hand. The idea is that in the event that we end up with Karn in our hand, he's a powerhouse. This means that our gameplay overall is more consistently strong, since having Karn in the deck broadens the number of possible hands that are game-winning.
Besides, Counterspell is hardly tutorable and it's an equally rare occasion we have it in our hand, and it's not a bad card.
In a best-case scenario, you're correct--but sometimes things go wrong, particularly when you're playing against 3+ other opponents. We can't build our deck around Arcum, otherwise if we can't stick him then we lose. Instead, he's just the grease between the gears--if we do stick him, that's a big help, he speeds things along tremendously, but the game-winning machine is in the 99.
See, you're thinking about it the wrong way again. If we streamline the deck to focus more about Arcum, our deck actually becomes weaker, because we become dependent on him. A resolved Meddling Mage, Nevermore, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, etc. and we're boned.
Cards like Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel add versatility. They can do so many things and are helpful in so many ways when Arcum is on OR off the field. Myr Sire and Alloy Myr, on the other hand, are jank without Arcum.
Maybe my primer is written too much like Arcum is a necessity. He's really not. You can win the game just as quickly even if he never hits the field, and it's because of the intense synergy among the 99.
[1] You shouldn't ever have to tutor for a dork, particularly a tutor that costs 2U. If you have no dorks or artifact manlands in your opening hand, mulligan.
[2] If your opponents are targeting your dorks to buy time, they're doing it wrong. You always sac a dork on your opponent's turn in response to something they do, or on their end step when they're tapped out. And beyond that, they shouldn't be wasting removal on your dorks when they could be using it on your combo pieces.
[3] Using Intuition as a counterspell is a pretty inefficient move. Let's say you're running both Pact of Negation and Force of Will in your deck. Using Intuition as a counterspell, you'd reveal FoW, Pact, and Mana Drain; your opponent would obviously put FoW and Pact to your grave and Drain to your hand, and then you'd attempt to cast Drain. That's a 2UUU counterspell, ew. And on top of that you now have no free countermagic to protect yourself when you combo off because they're both in your GY.
I really like Intuition, too, as a card, since I play 43lands.dec in Legacy where it's a complete house, but I'm convinced it doesn't fit in Arcum. You really need complete mastery of your GY to get the full mileage out of it as a triple Demonic Tutor, and while our GY isn't entirely out of reach, we're really not the best of friends.
You wouldn't ever search for it. It's just a cheap dork that recurs other dorks if necessary, which like you correctly pointed out can be a major help in the early game or under a Portal lock. And if the recursion ability isn't necessary then it sacs itself to draw a card. It's rare that you find a cheap dork with that kind of utility potential.
You could probably get away with switching Scarecrone for Myr Sire if you really wanted to, but I wouldn't swap it for Jester's Cap because that actually changes the ratio of creatures to non-creatures. If you're going to remove a dork, replace it with a dork; if you're going to add a silver bullet like Jester's Cap, then take out another silver bullet that isn't as useful for your metagame.
Tutor spells are in the deck to A) decrease our dependency on Arcum and B) augment our tempo if we do manage to stick Arcum. That is to say, we use them to tutor the same things we'd be tutoring with Arcum, many of which are in fact expensive, like Clock of Omens, Possessed Portal, or in my above example with Karn, Mycosynth Lattice. Using Reshape to fetch any of those isn't just slower than using Transmute Artifact...it's practically impossible (in a competitive game, anyway). Reshape adds to the mana cost of the tutor target, whereas Transmute Artifact subtracts from that mana cost.
We NEVER use tutor spells to search for a dork or a non-combo mana rock like Sol Ring.
I honestly don't mean this offensively, but if I were you I wouldn't worry about switching cards around until I really mastered the deck's "ethos" or mentality. I've noticed as you've been defending your card suggestions that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) you're simply thinking about the deck's fundamentals in the wrong way (well, "wrong" in my opinion, anyway), in terms of what to tutor for, when to tutor, how to tutor, when to mull, and so forth. Learning how to make these decisions will net you more wins than any choice of cards. In my responses to your suggestions I've been trying to explain what I believe is the correct way to make these decisions (of course I could be wrong, and I'm always reflecting upon my own philosophies). Like I said, it might partially be my fault--maybe the way I wrote the primer is giving people the wrong ideas. I'll keep looking into it.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
Additionally, in a little while I'll be adding some of the cards suggested above that I ruled out to the main primer thread in the "Cards I Don't Run" section.
Of the 158/249 cards in M14 that have been spoiled at the time of this post, none of the artifacts are relevant to Arcum.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
1 Arcum Dagsson
Counters, 9
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Crumple
1 Hinder
1 Rewind
1 Cryptic Command
1 Pact of Negation
1 Dissipate
1 Dismiss
1 Muddle the Mixture
Win Conditions, 3
1 Darksteel Reactor
1 Karn Silver Golem
1 Stroke of Genius
Mana Rocks, 8
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Grim Monolith (?)
1 Worn Powerstorne (gonna be Mana Crypt)
1 Cloud Key
1 Guardian Idol
1 Lotus Petal
Artifact Creatures, 7
1 Silver Myr
1 Alloy Myr
1 Plague Myr
1 Manakin
1 Myr Moonvessel
1 Palladium Myr
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Fabricate
1 Planar Portal
1 Trinket Mage
1 Master Transmuter
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Memory Jar
1 Expedition Map
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Myr Retriever
1 Junk Diver
1 Future Sight
1 Magus of the Future
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Rings of Brighthearth
Utility,7
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 All is Dust/Evacuation
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph/Sculpting Steel
1 Duplicant
1 Elixir of Immortality
Locks, 9
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Nev’s Disk
1 Voltaic Key
1 Clock of Omens
1 Possessed Portal
1 Unwinding Clock
1 Crucible of Worlds
Lands, 40
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Blinkmoth nexus
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Phyrexia’s Core
1 Tolaria West
1 Strip Mine
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Petrified Fields
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Crystal Vien
1 Ancient Tomb
I'm about to head out the door in just a short while and I'll post more in-depth when I get back, but before I leave here's a few preliminary notes on a few of your singletons:
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
1. When I was making a list for this deck, the template I was using was a very older list. I will cut the idol for epochriste.
2-3. They are pet cards. I am unsure about wanting to cut, as with infinite turns it presents a hard lock. If this combo is weak and of no use in testing it will be replaced. If I were to cut Magosi what should it be replaced with? An Island?
4. Exiling the cards from a players yard is key in my meta. I will try to find space for cage as I can see it's use.
5. Again this list was based on stuff for an older one. I will find space for it. Maybe cut Planar Portal? They essentially do the same thing. What do you think?
Questions:
My question is how do you guys feel about Hall of the Bandit Lord? Getting haste is awesome, even at the cost of 3 life; but it comes into play tapped. I can see arguments for and against but I would like to hear what yall think.
EDIT: the deck wins by generating infinite 1/1s correct? If we do so, is there a way of giving them haste or do we have to let our opponents get another turn to try something? Thats why I like Magosi as it prevents them from being able to respond(unless they have an instant of some kind).
As I come up with questions/ideas/debates I will post them.
Thanks for your time.
What infinite turns combo are you thinking of? The only one I know with Magosi requires Candelabra of Tawnos, which is a really expensive card that not many people own.
And yeah, you'd replace it with an island.
Don't try to force in the Cage if you really don't think it'll help. If it's all about the exile then you're probably better off with Tormod's + Relic of Progenitus rather than Tormod's + Cage. In all the scenarios I run into, Cage gets me more milage than Tormod's, but only you know your own meta.
If you check my changelog on the primer you'll see that I ultimately cut Planar Portal around the same time I added Staff of Domination.
Try it for yourself, you won't be disappointed. It's well worth the CIPT once you learn to play around it.
Well actually most of my wins come from my opponents conceding. Once you get your infinite mana + infinite draw (@ instant speed with Staff of Domination), smart opponents will simply concede, as the game is already over. If they want to watch you play out your winning turn, though, then what you'd do is plop down Forge/Disk/Lattice (countering anything problematic, since by now you'll have drawn your entire deck and have all your countermagic in hand and infinite mana to cast it with). Now you can destroy all your opponents' permanents every single turn, so they should really concede here. But if they STILL don't, then, yes, then you generate infinite tokens and kill them manually, or you could even just swing with Arcum over and over and over again until they're all dead, doesn't really matter.
So your win is pretty much secured once you get infinite mana and infinite draw. That's why the Rings/Basalt/Staff combo is a lot better than Rings/Basalt/Top, because when you use Staff the draws are at instant speed, so you can just keep drawing your deck in response and then counter whatever they throw at you.
Pretty much the only thing that can stop you once you assemble Rings/Top/Staff is an effect that freezes the stack, and those cards are few and far between...Split Second effects like Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, etc. will do it.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
Planar Portal is getting cut for Staff.
Ill add an updated list once enough changes have been made.
Thanks for the feedback.
This is correct.
That's what I thought too. The key issue is that Magosi comes into play tapped.
@FettMan, if Magosi is one of your pet cards and you really, really feel attached to it, you can probably throw in Amulet of Vigor to the Arcum list to complete the Magosi/Rings combo (I assume you don't own a Candelabra of Tawnos). The Amulet is not really all that great of a card, but at least it's an artifact, and I'm sure it has some minor usefulness on its own. I wouldn't recommend it, but if you like Magosi and winning with infinite turns would really make you happy, then go for it.
I didn't mean to insult you if you felt like I did. I was just saying, judging from your questions, that it seems like the issues you're wondering about all have to do with the decision-making process as an Arcum pilot, and that's something that can only come with practice and playtesting.
Keep in mind that we run 3 artifact manlands (Mishra's Factory, Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus) and they really do make a big difference.
I don't have any complicated math to show you that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that 18 creatures and 37 lands is the magical proportion to make Arcum run flawlessly. You could probably get away with running 20 creatures, or 16 creatures, or anywhere in between.
My current ratio has worked great for me personally, and someone unfamiliar with the deck might get overzealous and start cutting too many dorks or putting too many in, so as a safe "rule of thumb" I simply advise people conserve my ratios, because I they're proven to work well.
I read an article somewhere a while back that statistically showed that the deck-thinning properties of fetchlands are pretty much negligible, even moreso for 100-card decks over 60-card decks. It probably wouldn't hurt to include them, but keep in mind that they do have additional weaknesses (for example, they get hosed by Blood Moon) that Islands don't.
If you really don't like them, you can replace them with more palatable substitutes. I like Svyelunite Temple because it can power out T2 Arcums even though it sacs (which is why we run Crystal Vein), and for such a great effect the CIPT hardly matters once you learn to play around it (which is why we run Hall of the Bandit Lord). I like Thirst for Knowledge because it's an instant-speed draw-three for an easy 3 CMC, but if you replace it with another great draw spell like Windfall or something because you're just not feeling it, then it probably won't make THAT much of a difference one way or another (it's just a support card, after all).
There's only 2 or 3 lands we'd ever actually want to tutor for: Hall of the Bandit Lord, Academy Ruins, and Cavern of Souls (you should probably throw in Cavern somewhere, I just noticed I hadn't thrown it in my decklist yet). So I simply see no need at the moment to load up on slow land tutors like Expedition Map.
I'm glad you like the list. I'm always happy to help if you have questions.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
Well OK, but so does everything else.
I mean if you already have Rings/Basalt/Staff AND Lattice/Clock assembled, such that you have infinite mana, infinite draw, and infinite untaps of any permanent, all at instant speed, you should be able to win in any way you can imagine, not just Magosi infinite turns.
But like I said, if it's a card you like, don't let me stop you. At the end of the day, if one "suboptimal" card will make the deck a hundred times more fun, then it's worth it.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
Edit: Also I have a question to your 3 step win. Why shouldn't I get Forge before Rings? I know after the Rings you can copy and get the Monolith and Staff, but don't people try to blow Rings up when they learn of its power?
Edit 2: How does Knowledge Pool and Teferi create a lock?
Edit 3: Whats the game plan for decks like Zur that have counter backup out the ass?
Another thing Expedition Map can do is to get a fodder if you need one via the 3 artifact manlands. Also, in my list where I don't run any 1-drop artifact creature, it makes my Trinket Mage live when I need fodder.
As for Sveyulenite, I run Sapprazzan Skerry in its place, so I can use the 2 mana twice. Which basically means I drop Arcum as early as turn 2 or 3, or drop some mana rocks which negates the loss of the land after the 2nd use.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Yeah, you're right on the fetchlands, I was only thinking about the minimal deck-thining, didn't think about the Crucible interaction. Critical oversight on my part. I'll add them ASAP and include a section in the primer to explain them. Thanks!
Getting a fodder with Map is something I'm more skeptical about. If you have a hand with no fodder, you should mull, not Trinket Mage -> Expedition Map -> pop map -> play manland (requires land drop), that just seems like it would take too long. Plus I already run (controversially) Myr Moonvessel so if I really ended up in a spot like that I'd just go Trinket Mage -> Myr Moonvessel.
How has Saprazzan Skerry been working out for you? My concern is that you have to blow a counter every time you tap it, unlike Svyelunite Temple which you can save 'till you pop it. Sometimes, like for example if I'm at a table with 2 or more MBC players loaded to the gills with removal, I wouldn't explode into a turn-2 Arcum knowing that he'd invariably eat a Doom Blade. In that case I'd want to save my land pop for when it's safer, and Skerry doesn't let you do that (every tap is essentially a "pop").
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
A great meta call card. The interesting thing about Revoker over needle is that it turns off mana abilities.
The Future Sight effect is hugely powerful as it effectively allows you to draw many, many cards per turn, and if you're going for a more controllish Arcum build then you should definitely include them. My build is more combo-oriented, and the only combo that works with them is Future Sight/Magus of the Future + Etherium Sculptor/Cloud Key + Sensei's Divining Top, which is another way to draw your deck...essentially, you activate Top's draw ability, it goes to the top of your library, you cast it from the top of your library (using Future Sight or Magus) for free (due to Sculptor or Key), and then you repeat. I don't like this combo much because you can't tutor very easily for it (Sculptor and Magus are creatures, Future Sight is an enchantment) and it's sorcery speed.
If they're smart, yeah, but ofc if they're smart they'll also try to blow up Forge (remember that the three most common colors in competitive metas are WUB, and the majority of artifact removal is W exile-based like Return to Dust). Also keep in mind that putting Forge out first makes you delay your win for a turn, which might be the difference between winning and losing. Putting rings out first OR forge out first is a big target either way and it's up to you to budget your countermagic, anticipate your opponents' plays, have backup plans ready, etc.
Teferi says "Opponents may cast spells only any time they may cast a sorcery." Remember that Sorcery spells can only be cast under two conditions:
Whenever you see Teferi in the command zone, you can expect he'll work toward a Pool victory as much as you can expect the sun to rise tomorrow morning.
For "counter backup out the ass" I'd think of Azami, Lady of Scrolls before I thought of Zur, but anyway we'd run with Cavern of Souls, Neurok Stealthsuit, and mana denial options like Winter Orb.
I'm still waiting for an artifact version of City of Solitude to be printed.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
Not quite 100%, but consider Defense Grid in that regard.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Also I think I should acquire a Cavern right? Prolly cut a basic for it?