Purphoros has always been the way more powerful alternative, but it's also obnoxious to play against for your friends. Norin is an active downgrade in power to get a more innocent looking fun commander, that has some weird synergies.
Jeska's Will seems pretty good. It's card draw and (temporary) mana in one.
Horizon Stone is also kind of interesting for the big mana decks.
Ingenuity Engine also does seem kind of interesting. 7 mana is a lot, but it also ensures, that it hits pretty much anything with cascade. The activated ability is definitely very desireable.
Forsaken Monument - Great card for the deck. Interacts quite well with a lot of other cards, despite being on the high-mana side of things.
Lithoform Engine - I'm torn on this card. I like Rings-style cards, but this feels just slightly too costly for its effect not happening more than once per turn.
Coercive Recruiter - Comparable to Zealous Conscripts. Worth consideration.
Dargo, the Shipwrecker - I mean, it is just a beefy dude, but it's very easy for it to be a 1 mana 7/5 with trample.
Emberwilde Captain - Monarch is kinda whatever for me, but I'm going into the red zone a bit more often so I'm not entirely opposed to considering this card.
Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith - I feel like this card fits really well into what we want to do in the deck.
Wheel of Misfortune - I wish this card was better than it is. As is, I like the idea of it, but the most effective usage bothers me. I sorta feel obligated to test it if and when I next get a real game going.
Horizon Stone - Not nearly as effective as Leyline Tyrant. Worth consideration, but I think it's a little too do-nothing/win-more for its cost.
Ingenuity Engine - It's okay. At 7 mana, it's unlikely to be as worthwhile as I'd like, but it's worth consideration when going wide.
War Room - Decent consideration. Red decks like this one can use the draw, and this is one of the first lands where the cost/effect ratio might be worth it. That said, it's going to be hard to slot it in given the already present issues with lack of coloured mana. I'll see where I go on this. For now, picking one up to at least consider testing.
From Commander Legends, I'd really want to give Wheel of Misfortune a shot. More wheel effects definitely seems worth it. Also, reading it again the way you put it Osie, Flamekin Herald is really the way I want to go with Norin. Having a shot at a Wheel of Fate (but not being certain you'll hit it) is exactly what I want to achieve in Norin. The other ones I'm considering are War Room (card draw is still an issue in my opinion) and Jeska's Will - the latter feels like a red 'intuitive' ponder in most cases I think.
Also, I got my hands on a Lithoform Engine recently and I'm tempted to try it out in Norin. Seems like there will be enough decent options to copy for us.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
From Commander Legends, I'd really want to give Wheel of Misfortune a shot. More wheel effects definitely seems worth it. Also, reading it again the way you put it Osie, Flamekin Herald is really the way I want to go with Norin. Having a shot at a Wheel of Fate (but not being certain you'll hit it) is exactly what I want to achieve in Norin. The other ones I'm considering are War Room (card draw is still an issue in my opinion) and Jeska's Will - the latter feels like a red 'intuitive' ponder in most cases I think.
Also, I got my hands on a Lithoform Engine recently and I'm tempted to try it out in Norin. Seems like there will be enough decent options to copy for us.
The moxen are also a benefit to it.
As for the Lithoform, I think it's not as good as Rings of Brighthearth and/or Strionic Resonator. The CMC is slightly too high for what it is. The spell ability is irrelephant and the permanent ability is mostly irrelephant.
Hi osie, what does your deck look like now? How does this deck stack up nowadays to say a high power casual group? I haven't touched this deck since around 2015 with a gobin focused build, and I'm thinking of updating it.
Hi osie, what does your deck look like now? How does this deck stack up nowadays to say a high power casual group? I haven't touched this deck since around 2015 with a gobin focused build, and I'm thinking of updating it.
I have yet to pick up the Commander Legends cards. Flamekin Herald is exciting.
I don't get to play very often any more; I'd love to have more opportunities to play via webcam...
Need to get Rings of Brighthearth back in the deck for realsies just because it's SO good. Also, want to increase my creature count again, by 1-2 slots.
Feldon always feels a little slow for me. Gadrak is not as exciting as I hoped. Relic is less necessary with Scavenger Grounds in the deck. Mind Stone is the least likely of these to disappear, but is a consideration I've had in the past. Gauntlet of Power just feels not very helpful when it comes up given the usefulness of the other two nowadays. Flameshadow Conjuring is very win-more in my experience with it.
I've had a bit of mana irregularity from the last games I remember, so I may ponder some fixes for that, particularly involving damage or draw.
When/why did grip of chaos and planar chaos fall out of favor? Those were some of my favorite cards in the deck but it seems like they got cut.
osieorb18 is not Gaka, the OP, but one of the main folks still running a variant of the list and maintaining presence in this thread. Gaka's been gone some time now. Grip of Chaos and Planar Chaos as disruption enchantments were necessary in Gaka's meta at the time he was maintaining this thread, but most other folks running a variant of the list don't need them for their meta or they would be too oppressive or disruptive to their own plan.
Edit: This forum has a way to search the thread for keywords - you'll probably be able to find discussion about those cards and what reasons others cut them.
I for one am still running both grip of chaos and planar chaos. They're two of the stronger red control cards, along with Blood Moon and possibly Stranglehold. In my meta, enchantment removal is still not really present, even though it's become pretty tuned. Norin is no longer one of the stronger decks, but still one of the more fun decks to play and although it's a bit more chaosy than your average deck, it's still pretty well-respected. And every now and then, it does some really powerful stuff.
When I get the chance, I'll post my most recent build. I've been updating it regularly now for years and recently rebuilt it from scratch.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
I for one am still running both grip of chaos and planar chaos. They're two of the stronger red control cards, along with Blood Moon and possibly Stranglehold. In my meta, enchantment removal is still not really present, even though it's become pretty tuned. Norin is no longer one of the stronger decks, but still one of the more fun decks to play and although it's a bit more chaosy than your average deck, it's still pretty well-respected. And every now and then, it does some really powerful stuff.
When I get the chance, I'll post my most recent build. I've been updating it regularly now for years and recently rebuilt it from scratch.
I'd definitely be interested in seeing your list when you find the time
When/why did grip of chaos and planar chaos fall out of favor? Those were some of my favorite cards in the deck but it seems like they got cut.
Grip of Chaos doesn't do enough immediately for its cost for my build. Planar Chaos impedes my own plan too much for not having effective ways to ignore it.
I haven't tested the deck much since I revised it, since there's only one evening a week I'm able to get in some games and there's about fifteen decks I regularly want to play. That said, It does run better than it did, mainly because of the additional card draw and lower average CMC than it used to have. The main issue now is dealing with threats. I fear I run too little removal.
This is never going to be a tier one deck on our table, nor do I want it to be. So upping the power by adding Mana Crypts etc isn't worth it for me.
I really like the little chaos aspect that it has and I'm not willing to give that up. It's the only deck I have that does that.
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Woops, tnx Osie. Fixed that. Probably a copy/paste error on my side.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Birgi, God of Storytelling - Both sides of this card are quite interesting for Norin. Definitely a consideration, though at the moment, I'm not QUITE there on it.
Goldspan Dragon - I sorta like the idea of going all-in on a treasure subtheme, but at the moment it's not quite good enough. This would be a definite contender for that subtheme.
Magda, Brazen Outlaw - Same point as Goldspan Dragon about this being good for a treasure subtheme.
Quakebringer - Meh. For 5 mana this doesn't do enough, and the foretell ability isn't enough to justify it.
Tibalt's Trickery - This MIGHT be worth it. I do like me an unexpected counterspell, and you can use it to set yourself up, particularly if you get lucky with the numbering.
Toralf, God of Fury - I sorta want to do some shenanigans here too, but again, the effect's not quite worth it for its cost. A bit too niche.
Pyre of Heroes - Norin meets Pod? Might be good for the Goblin decks.
Imma test Tibalt's Trickery for sure. I love the fact that you don't see it coming, and I'm looking forward to the time I'm countering my own Curse of Opulence to reveal a Warstorm Surge after using SDT.
Also, I really overlooked Pyre of Heroes. I'm not a Pod fan in commander, but as you know I do run the goblin package. And saccing a token to fetch Goblin Welder. Also, the chain would go Norin the Wary --> Mogg War Marshal --> Squee, Goblin Nabob --> Krenko, Mob Boss.. Unchecked off course, and slow, but still... that's sweeeet. And good value and alternatives along the way.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
not to burst anyone's bubble but...you can't SDT in the middle of resolving tibalt's trickery.
Yeah, so it might just nombo, but it's worth a try if the deck lends itself to the card. My feeling is that it won't be nearly as exciting as ideal, but oh well. (I picked up an ugly-border (extended art) Tibalt's Trickery from the one pack of Kaldheim I opened, so I'll at least goldfish it some.)
Imma test Tibalt's Trickery for sure. I love the fact that you don't see it coming, and I'm looking forward to the time I'm countering my own Curse of Opulence to reveal a Warstorm Surge after using SDT.
Also, I really overlooked Pyre of Heroes. I'm not a Pod fan in commander, but as you know I do run the goblin package. And saccing a token to fetch Goblin Welder. Also, the chain would go Norin the Wary --> Mogg War Marshal --> Squee, Goblin Nabob --> Krenko, Mob Boss.. Unchecked off course, and slow, but still... that's sweeeet. And good value and alternatives along the way.
Jeska's Will seems pretty good. It's card draw and (temporary) mana in one.
Wheel of Misfortune is definitely a nice budget alternative to Wheel of Fortune.
Horizon Stone is also kind of interesting for the big mana decks.
Ingenuity Engine also does seem kind of interesting. 7 mana is a lot, but it also ensures, that it hits pretty much anything with cascade. The activated ability is definitely very desireable.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
Commander Legends Review:
Also, I got my hands on a Lithoform Engine recently and I'm tempted to try it out in Norin. Seems like there will be enough decent options to copy for us.
The moxen are also a benefit to it.
As for the Lithoform, I think it's not as good as Rings of Brighthearth and/or Strionic Resonator. The CMC is slightly too high for what it is. The spell ability is irrelephant and the permanent ability is mostly irrelephant.
I have yet to pick up the Commander Legends cards. Flamekin Herald is exciting.
I don't get to play very often any more; I'd love to have more opportunities to play via webcam...
Current Decklist:
1 Norin the Wary
Creatures (24):
1 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Engineer
1 Iron Myr
1 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Feldon of the Third Path
1 Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Squee, the Immortal
1 Hellrider
1 Leyline Tyrant
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Terror of the Peaks
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Moraug, Fury of Akoum
1 Myr Battlesphere
Artifacts (20):
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Amber
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining TOp
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Springleaf Drum
1 Genesis Chamber
1 Mind Stone
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Inspiring Statuary
1 Skyclave Relic
1 Gauntlet of Might
1 Panharmonicon
1 Trading Post
1 Forsaken Monument
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Memory Jar
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Impact Tremors
1 Underworld Breach
1 Blood Moon
1 Valakut Exploration
1 Flameshadow Conjuring
1 Confusion in the Ranks
Planeswalkers (5):
1 Chandra, Acolyte of Flame
1 Chandra, Fire Artisan
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Karn Liberated
Instants (1):
1 Chaos Warp
Sorceries (8):
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Faithless Looting
1 Gamble
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tempt with Vengeance
1 Vandalblast
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Blasphemous Act
Lands (34):
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Field of the Dead
1 Flamekin Village
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 High Market
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Kher Keep
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scavenger Grounds
15 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
Need to get Rings of Brighthearth back in the deck for realsies just because it's SO good. Also, want to increase my creature count again, by 1-2 slots.
Planning to pick up Flamekin Herald and probably Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith, along with Tome of Legends and Mox Opal.
Probably cutting Field of the Dead for a Snow-Covered Mountain.
On the shortlist to consider cutting:
1 Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mind Stone
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Flameshadow Conjuring
Feldon always feels a little slow for me. Gadrak is not as exciting as I hoped. Relic is less necessary with Scavenger Grounds in the deck. Mind Stone is the least likely of these to disappear, but is a consideration I've had in the past. Gauntlet of Power just feels not very helpful when it comes up given the usefulness of the other two nowadays. Flameshadow Conjuring is very win-more in my experience with it.
I've had a bit of mana irregularity from the last games I remember, so I may ponder some fixes for that, particularly involving damage or draw.
Only if the player is strong enough (as has always been the case for Norin).
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
All of which are probably worth it?
Edit: This forum has a way to search the thread for keywords - you'll probably be able to find discussion about those cards and what reasons others cut them.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
When I get the chance, I'll post my most recent build. I've been updating it regularly now for years and recently rebuilt it from scratch.
I'd definitely be interested in seeing your list when you find the time
Grip of Chaos doesn't do enough immediately for its cost for my build. Planar Chaos impedes my own plan too much for not having effective ways to ignore it.
1 Norin the Wary
Creatures (22)
1 Goblin Welder
2 Dockside Extortionist
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Engineer
2 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
3 Zurzoth, Chaos Rider
3 Magus of the Wheel
3 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Feldon of the Third Path
3 Goblin Matron
4 Ogre Battledriver
4 Moggcatcher
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Krenko, Mob Boss
5 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
5 Terror of the Peaks
5 Goblin Assassin
5 Siege-Gang Commander
6 Duplicant
Artifacts (15):
0 Mox Amber
1 Helm of Possession
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Springleaf Drum
2 Mind Stone
2 Tome of Legends
2 Genesis Chamber
2 Endless Atlas
3 Honor-Worn Shaku
3 Cloudstone Curio
3 Extraplanar Lens
4 Panharmonicon
5 Memory Jar
5 Conjurer's Closet
1 Curse of Opulence
2 Impact Tremors
2 Underworld Breach
3 Price of Glory
3 Blood Moon
3 Planar Chaos
4 Experimental Frenzy
4 Pyrohemia
4 Outpost Siege
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Stranglehold
4 Flameshadow Conjuring
5 Confusion in the Ranks
5 Stolen Strategy
6 Warstorm Surge
6 Grip of Chaos
Instants (2)
3 Valakut Awakening
3 Chaos Warp
Sorceries (8)
0 Wheel of Fate
1 Shattering Spree
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Shatterskull Smashing
3 Wheel of Misfortune
3 Jeska's Will
5 Reforge the Soul
9 Blasphemous Act
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
Lands (35)
23 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Buried Ruin
1 Castle Embereth
1 Dwarven Mine
1 Endless Sands
1 Flamekin Village
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Great Furnace
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Kher Keep
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 War Room
Other notes:
Tibalt's Trickery seems interesting. I would like Magda, Brazen Outlaw a lot more if she were a goblin.
WU TBD | UB Wrexial | BR The Scorpion God | RG Xenagos | GW Katilda
WB TBD | UR TBD | BG Virtus & Gorm | RW Feather | GU Koma
GWU TBD | WUB Sefris | UBR TBD | BRG Lord Windgrace | RGW TBD
WBG TBD | URW Brallin & Shabraz | BGU Kadena | RWB Edgar | GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
WUBR TBD | UBRG Thrasios & Vial Smasher | BRGW Saskia | RGWU TBD | GWUB TBD
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon | C Kozilek
As a theorycraft for the lolz, this is what the start of a treasure package might look like:
1 Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge
1 Goldspan Dragon
1 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
1 Treasure Map
Also, I really overlooked Pyre of Heroes. I'm not a Pod fan in commander, but as you know I do run the goblin package. And saccing a token to fetch Goblin Welder. Also, the chain would go Norin the Wary --> Mogg War Marshal --> Squee, Goblin Nabob --> Krenko, Mob Boss.. Unchecked off course, and slow, but still... that's sweeeet. And good value and alternatives along the way.
Yeah, so it might just nombo, but it's worth a try if the deck lends itself to the card. My feeling is that it won't be nearly as exciting as ideal, but oh well. (I picked up an ugly-border (extended art) Tibalt's Trickery from the one pack of Kaldheim I opened, so I'll at least goldfish it some.)
You can Krenko into Kiki-Jiki...