Hey everyone! How are you guys doing
Just joined the dark side ^^
What do you think about the new Living Twister
Also, doesn anyone mind taking a look at my version of the deck? https://archidekt.com/decks/69443#Lands
I run the Gate-package, as well as the Kessig + Nexus combo.
Hey everyone! How are you guys doing
Just joined the dark side ^^
What do you think about the new Living Twister
Also, doesn anyone mind taking a look at my version of the deck? https://archidekt.com/decks/69443#Lands
I run the Gate-package, as well as the Kessig + Nexus combo.
Trade Routes might be a better version of Living Twister. Since we can run blue cards, it might just be relegated to the Jund/Gruul land.dec builds.
Yeah, I guess you're right, probably not the right fit for this deck.
What is the consensus on how much lands to play? I've read the entire thread, I've seen numbers thrown around as low as 45, or as high as 64. I'm guessing it depends on your build, but I figure the correct amount must be somewhere between 50 and 60. Added question: How many basics is the correct number? I'm playing one of each (since I'm also playing Ash Barrens and Terramorphic Expanse, but I could see myself cutting that entire package if there is reason to do so. Are fetches + shocks a better alternative (although that would mean I needed to cut a lot more then those 7 lands...), or more utility lands?
I haven't seen it mentioned before, but what about Diabolic Intent? It's an extra tutor and a sac-outlet for Child. Do you think it's worth it? (Since realistically you only want to cast it, sacrificing Child)
Also I put in Cyclonic Rift, because, well Cyclonic Rift. I was looking for another board-wipe that wouldn't hurt to much when drawn of Ad Nauseum. Include or a no-go?
Personally I'm a huge fan of all the cycle lands, I'm running the UBG OG-ones (Tranquil Thicket, as well as 2 of the Amonkhet ones. I just love having them in hand, since, early or late-game, they are never dead. They have great synergy with Life from the Loam as well as all the other graveyard shenannings we're trying to pull off.
EDIT: Memorial to Genius is also in my list, going to try it out, maybe will be too slow.
On the land count, you can play as many or little as you want. Maze's End isn't a compact package but it does fix mana so they're bad duals until you win, and some people don't even have duals (just shocks). Fetch + dual/shock is the strongest interaction in any format of MTG. You play as much as possible.
I don't run Diabolic Intent because my creatures aren't good for sacrificing other than Child of Alara. It's not a good card to use a sacrifice outlet. You really want engines that you can re-use for sac outlets (e.g. Worthy Cause, Phyrexian Tower). Diabolic Intent is really more fitting for graveyard decks with lots of fodder. I think it'll get stranded in your hand enough times that you'll eventually want to take it out, but a tutor at 1B is hard to turn down.
Cyclonic Rift is important because when you play against a heavy artifact deck with Darksteel Forge, you don't want to just lose. I also believe it's the strongest card in the format.
I don't play all of the cycle lands, just GW because of Riftstone Portal and Sheltered Thicket because it's fetch able and a mountain for Valakut. There's too many land cycles to include them all and the cycling lands is where I personally decided to shave down so I can play other cards.
As always, these are just my thoughts. You should always play what you want.
Yeah, when I think about it more thouroughly, Diabolic Intent doesn't seem worth it, is probably too conditional.
Isn't Valakut only playable with Prismatic Omen? I agree that they are fetchable, and therefor probably better (if you're running fetches) then the other cyclers, but not for Valakut reasons, just my opinion though ^^
Yeah, when I think about it more thouroughly, Diabolic Intent doesn't seem worth it, is probably too conditional.
Isn't Valakut only playable with Prismatic Omen? I agree that they are fetchable, and therefor probably better (if you're running fetches) then the other cyclers, but not for Valakut reasons, just my opinion though ^^
I mentioned Sheltered Thicket because it does fit into the cycling package. I used to play green and black onslaught cycling because of Urborg. But then I moved to Riftstone Portal and playing green and white cycling only. When Amonkhet came out, I put in Sheltered Thicket because it's fetch able and a mountain.
Valakut is why I play all 10 ABUR duals, but only the 7 red/green shocks. But yes, it's tough to Valakut without Prismatic Omen. However, I have Scapeshifted into a Valakut + red duals before just to deal damage.
I put Finale in, instead of Rubblehulk, who was only in there to combo with Inkmoth Nexus, and ocasionally win with Commander-Damage. Finale seems much better, since you can revive COA, and still swing in with Inkmoth for the win.
I updated my list, including the 4 green fetches and 4 shocks (don't have the OG Duals, not planning to spend money on those). I do run one other forest and 2 fetchable Cycle-lands, do you ever run out of lands to fetch for?
Also, HYPE for Modern Horizons, and the new "Canopy Cycle", definitely going to include the UG and BG one, don't know what to cut yeat (probably at least 1 cycle land), but I've got some time to think about it
I thought you guys would love Tectonic Reformation. Giving half your deck cycling seems like a great way to draw a bunch of cards every single turn, not to mention set up critical lands in the yard.
I thought you guys would love Tectonic Reformation. Giving half your deck cycling seems like a great way to draw a bunch of cards every single turn, not to mention set up critical lands in the yard.
The cost to cycle using Tectonic Reformation is too high. R is a serious cost for a 5-color manabase.
What do you think about Wrenn and Six Umtiger? I play Restore in my ist, which seems very similar. Is it worth it? It's probably going to get killed after one round, but you do get the upside of gaining some life, or a chance of it surviving.
Also do you think Hall of Heliod is good enough? I run 6 enchantments, all very essential pieces to the game-plan. I'd like to compare it to Academy Ruins, the difference being that Ruins gets back artifacts that sacrifice themselves (in my list I run both Expedition Map and Oblivion Stone). I just feel like I'm already running to many non-colored-producing lands as it is, don't know if I can or should make room for this one.
What do you think about Wrenn and Six Umtiger? I play Restore in my ist, which seems very similar. Is it worth it? It's probably going to get killed after one round, but you do get the upside of gaining some life, or a chance of it surviving.
Also do you think Hall of Heliod is good enough? I run 6 enchantments, all very essential pieces to the game-plan. I'd like to compare it to Academy Ruins, the difference being that Ruins gets back artifacts that sacrifice themselves (in my list I run both Expedition Map and Oblivion Stone). I just feel like I'm already running to many non-colored-producing lands as it is, don't know if I can or should make room for this one.
So, I think Wrenn and Six is a good card to run, can produce fun interactions, and give decent value (especially for costing only RG. However, my concern with it would be how it's not an "explosive" card. One of the trends in EDH produced by WOTC printed commander decks annually and releasing a Commander Masters/Horizons set annually is the horrible power-creep in the format. Many incremental advantage engines that would have been great 4-5 years ago are merely "good" nowadays.
At the end of the day, I just run whatever I feel like running regardless because you only get so much time to play. Just play what you want. At the moment, I don't have the space to run an engine like Wrenn and Six. But I wouldn't mind cutting something like Trinket Mage or Bringer of the Black Dawn for it. I feel like those two cards have been underperforming for me lately.
Restore is a great card that I'm not currently running. But I have in the past. Man, getting a land from someone else's graveyard has produced some nice interactions for me.
My current decklist only has six enchantments: Sylvan Library, Exploration, Burgeoning, Manabond, Prismatic Omen, and Trade Routes. Exploration is the best card in the deck. It's the card that I never want to dredge into my graveyard and get exiled (well that and an incidental guild gate). Even with only 6 enchantments, I'd still say that Hall of Heliod's Generosity is a slam dunk include. It could've had a better name but I feel the same about Ramnunap Excavator (aka Magus of the Crucible).
With it in your 99, you just get Life from the Loam and go to town until you dredge Volrath's Stronghold and/or Hall of Heliod. Then you recur what you need, be it a Sun Titan/Eternal Witness or Exploration.
What would be your cuts for Wrenn and Hall of Heliod?
I cut Boseiju awhile ago since I don't play against blue counters in my meta. I cut it for Horizon Canopy. Now I will cut Canopy for the Hall.
I never judge a pw'er by it's ult though, nobody should Especially in this deck where we won't be able to protect it with either creatures or standard mass removal (Wrath of god and the likes).
I feel Wrenn and Six's first ability is the one we should focus on. I believe it will only live one turn, but just the upside of getting a land back is good enough + life gain + the possibility of 2 or more activations + the really small chance of ulting + the even smaller chance of pinging someone or something for 1. Yeah, it feels like it should fit right in. I'm going to wait a couple of weeks though, for the price to drop to a normal ammount ^^
I never got the bringer of the Black down choice in your list btw, it's waaay to slow imo, also actual horror to reveal it off Ad Nauseum, there's way better tutors to run I believe.
I run the same enchantments, except for Trade Routes, I play Journey to Eternity instead, which, I have to say, has been overperforming greatly.
I would probably cut Boseiju as well, it has been underperforming.
I need to make room for the UG and the BG Canopy's as well though, probably going to cut a cycle land (Currently running 6, the BUG ones + 3 Amonkhet ones wiht G in them) and either Blast Zone, Blighted Fen or Riftstone Portal.
A raise dead each turn for a land in your graveyard is not good enough to play on its own. Without the incredible ultimate, would you consider Wrenn and Six? If you were going to, would you consider playing Nissa, Vital Force? Her return ability is leagues stronger than Wrenn's and her ultimate is even more incredible.
I think it's definitely time to consider ultimates when grading walkers for EDH. Commander is very different now. Grinding value to win games is pretty tough when any given opponent can just win in one turn. Might as well have an insane pay-off for that grind. Ultimates are also way more achievable than people seem to think (proliferate, extra turns, etc.). A planeswalker threatens to ultimate in about a third of the games I play. The only walker whose ultimate I don't consider is Jace, TMS because he's really that good.
I have revealed Bringer off of Ad Naus so many times. But I still haven't cut him because he's cool and it's a 40 life format. It makes me feel good when people have to read the card.
Yes, it might be more achieveable (with proliferate, or the likes), as I said before though, we don't have any of those way's OR a decent way to protect him. I do think a regrowth with real upside might be good enough (we already run E-Wit, which I know is a creature and more easily reccurable and tutor-able, it never hurts to run duplicates).
Also you're playing way different commander games then I am I think, bc unless there's somebody playing a dedicated superfriends deck, I rarely see a PW ult (ofcourse you've got the Doubling Season shenanigans, but those don't count here). People play enough spot/mass removal or attack them as soon as one hits play. It's become common sense to do this.
Nissa is very good, I agree, definitely way easier to ult (1 turn vs 3), however 2 mana vs 5 mana is a huge difference.
They play very differently.
With Nissa you plop her down and plan to ult her the turn after.
Wrenn plays more like Regrowth with very big upside, people will kill it more often then not.
I'm going to try him out, if I get my hands on one (Wrenn).
Yeah, a 40 life format definitely helps, but between all the fetches/shocks/vampiric Tutor/Sylvan Library/Ad Nauseum, I don't feel like we have too much life left to play with (You do run Diamond Valley, which I don't, so it's probably more manageable then my deck, still 9 life is almost 25% of our life total)
Yes, you should try Wrenn and Six if you want to. But it's not Regrowth since it only gets lands. The card that I most want to ever return with Eternal Witness/Sun Titan is usually Exploration or Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
Opponents will attack Wrenn even if it's not good though. So you shouldn't use that as a measure of its worth. You'll likely have no blockers, and attacking without scaling is poor in a 40 life format. So why attack for chip damage, when you can attack and remove a card? Either way, if you push people to commit to the board, it's more devastating when you trigger Child of Alara. It's one reason why Jace, TMS has been so good for me.
For those of you considering Wrenn? I just want to know what your take is on Jace, TMS? It seems like I'm the only one playing it.
Just to clarify, I like Wrenn's ultimate but not the +1 enough, even though it only costs RG to play. I'll stand on my assertion of planeswalkers though. For their mana costs, most of them are not impactful enough (without enablers) to play without their ability to threaten an ultimate. That is, if you're not scared of the ultimate or building around the static ability, the PW is not worth including most of the time. I just don't think grinding is where it's at anymore.
If I take nine from Bringer, so what? That's just the cost of doing business (running a pet card). Now if I take 9 + 8 from Bringer and Borborygmos Enraged...then I lose. Got to admit, that's why I took Bobo out. But EDH is about having fun.
I think we're playing wildly different gamess. Everyone will usually attack/kill pw'ers before going face again (unless there's some kind of race situation going on).
In a 4-player game, Wrenn will not push people to overcommit. Same as Jace (if we're talking 1v1, there's a different argument to be had, but I feel like this deck functions better in multiplayer anyways).
Jace is a great card. Played him in Legacy, a long time ago. Brainstorm (JTMS) is really powerful in a deck where you're constantly shuffling your deck. It has the same problem Wrenn has though, in that you cannot protect it, it costs 4 mana for a (which, if you put it like that is really, really weak), it won't live 1 turn-cycle and you'll never get to ult him. Wrenn has the advantage of costing only 2, and even though our deck runs more then 55 lands, we're still very mana hungry, so this actually matters.
I wouldn't run Jace over Wrenn if I had the choice no, I'd like to give Wrenn his fair chance, even knowing I'll only use his abbility twice (maximum), gaining me some incremental life in the process.
The general consensus on Jace in the EDH community is that it is underwhelming in a multiplayer format, I share that opinion. In 1v1 it can protect itself, control your opponents draws, drown you in card advantage and ultimately win you the game. In a 4-player pod? Brainstorm once? Maybe 2 times if you're really lucky? Unsummon + Brainstorm if you're lucky?
I also believe playing pet-cards is totally fine man, I do think Jace is one as well (Yeah, it's really good with Oracle, I know ;)).
It will never live, it won't force people to overcommit, and even if it does live 1 turn cycle you just paid 4 mana for 2 brainstorms (which is not the worst, but also, nothing to write home about)
You can play Wrenn and Six without putting down Jace TMS.
In a lot of EDH games, there just aren't any creatures in play turns 1-3. So if I play Jace TMS on curve, I'll get two uses. If I can get a Maze of Ith, it goes even further. Most of the time, Jace TMS isn't played on curve. If I play it after a Child of Alara trigger, it will also get two uses. So while Jace TMS is a card that I personally aim to play as much as possible, it's definitely not just a "pet" card. I know you called it that, but it's leagues above something like Bringer of the Black Dawn.
Jace TMS is only underwhelming in EDH compared to his reputation in constructed, his price-tag, and cEDH. Many players also build their decks wrong with him. Jace's vulnerabilities are well over-stated in EDH. He's not going to win the game on his own like he would in 1v1. But he's solid and I reliably activate him over and over in my Momir Vig and Brago decks (decks prepared with creatures to block).
If you don't think Jace is good, that's fine. But it's still better than Wrenn. Wrenn has a lower cmc and a better ultimate. Play new cards if you prefer to.
a.) 2UU for 2 Brainstorms and life > RG for 2 Raise Deads and life.
b.) In fact, any combination of activations of any of Jace's abilities > the same number of activations of Wrenn's abilities.
c.) Wrenn only has an advantage over Jace TMS early, but if you play him early you might get 0 value (especially in low-fetch builds).
d.) When you play against exile effects (one of Lands.dec vulnerabilities), Wrenn might get 0 value.
LIke I said, we must play at a different power level, because whenever I play, there will 100% be creatures on the board within the firt 3 turns.
I do agree that it is miles better then Bringer of the Black Down.
I would define a pet card as a card that you know isn't good enough to be in that specific deck, has little synergy with the rest of the deck, but you play annyway. I think most people would agree with me when saying Jace isn't good enough to be played in MOST commander decks, and certainly not in this one.
Actually Jace is not played in Cedh, non of the top-decks are running him.
Ofcourse he's better when you have creatures laying around to block, but we're arguing over playing him in Lands.dec, in which he doesn't belong, because we're not a typical control deck that runs 6-10 Creature-wrath's, or a Stax deck that locks everything down, or an extra turns deck, or a superfriends deck,... For sure he will be better in any of those decks, can we at least agree on that?
To me it seems to boil down to our differences in playgroups. Jace would'nt make it around 1 Cycle where I play, except for after a COA wrath. Can we agree that 2UU for 1 Brainstorm (sometimes 2) is just bad? Because if so, Jace would be bad in my meta.
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Just joined the dark side ^^
What do you think about the new Living Twister
Also, doesn anyone mind taking a look at my version of the deck? https://archidekt.com/decks/69443#Lands
I run the Gate-package, as well as the Kessig + Nexus combo.
Trade Routes might be a better version of Living Twister. Since we can run blue cards, it might just be relegated to the Jund/Gruul land.dec builds.
What is the consensus on how much lands to play? I've read the entire thread, I've seen numbers thrown around as low as 45, or as high as 64. I'm guessing it depends on your build, but I figure the correct amount must be somewhere between 50 and 60. Added question: How many basics is the correct number? I'm playing one of each (since I'm also playing Ash Barrens and Terramorphic Expanse, but I could see myself cutting that entire package if there is reason to do so. Are fetches + shocks a better alternative (although that would mean I needed to cut a lot more then those 7 lands...), or more utility lands?
I haven't seen it mentioned before, but what about Diabolic Intent? It's an extra tutor and a sac-outlet for Child. Do you think it's worth it? (Since realistically you only want to cast it, sacrificing Child)
Also I put in Cyclonic Rift, because, well Cyclonic Rift. I was looking for another board-wipe that wouldn't hurt to much when drawn of Ad Nauseum. Include or a no-go?
Personally I'm a huge fan of all the cycle lands, I'm running the UBG OG-ones (Tranquil Thicket, as well as 2 of the Amonkhet ones. I just love having them in hand, since, early or late-game, they are never dead. They have great synergy with Life from the Loam as well as all the other graveyard shenannings we're trying to pull off.
EDIT: Memorial to Genius is also in my list, going to try it out, maybe will be too slow.
I don't run Diabolic Intent because my creatures aren't good for sacrificing other than Child of Alara. It's not a good card to use a sacrifice outlet. You really want engines that you can re-use for sac outlets (e.g. Worthy Cause, Phyrexian Tower). Diabolic Intent is really more fitting for graveyard decks with lots of fodder. I think it'll get stranded in your hand enough times that you'll eventually want to take it out, but a tutor at 1B is hard to turn down.
Cyclonic Rift is important because when you play against a heavy artifact deck with Darksteel Forge, you don't want to just lose. I also believe it's the strongest card in the format.
I don't play all of the cycle lands, just GW because of Riftstone Portal and Sheltered Thicket because it's fetch able and a mountain for Valakut. There's too many land cycles to include them all and the cycling lands is where I personally decided to shave down so I can play other cards.
As always, these are just my thoughts. You should always play what you want.
Isn't Valakut only playable with Prismatic Omen? I agree that they are fetchable, and therefor probably better (if you're running fetches) then the other cyclers, but not for Valakut reasons, just my opinion though ^^
Well, even with Prismatic Omen, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle as an engine needs more help. You really have to play/build around it as a tactic with fetchlands, Trade Routes, Manabond, Vesuva, Thespian's Stage.
I mentioned Sheltered Thicket because it does fit into the cycling package. I used to play green and black onslaught cycling because of Urborg. But then I moved to Riftstone Portal and playing green and white cycling only. When Amonkhet came out, I put in Sheltered Thicket because it's fetch able and a mountain.
Valakut is why I play all 10 ABUR duals, but only the 7 red/green shocks. But yes, it's tough to Valakut without Prismatic Omen. However, I have Scapeshifted into a Valakut + red duals before just to deal damage.
It's also a forest for Knight of the Reliquary.
Is anyone thinking of Finale of Devastation in addition to or replacing Green Sun's Zenith? It gets Child of Alara from the graveyard!
Seems like a great add for this deck.
https://archidekt.com/decks/69443#Sweet_Child_of_Mine_(Lands.Dec)
Do you have an updated list umtiger? Your list sounds alot like mine, and I would like to check out the differences ^^
EDIT: I figured out you're playing OG duals, so you wouldn't run out of things to fetch for, do you think 8 targets in enough?
I don't play standard and don't draft. I've only been to one pre-release since Return to Ravnica (2012), so I don't run many new cards.
Even though our commander is a Planar Cleansing, you will always need outs to things like Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, etc.
Also, HYPE for Modern Horizons, and the new "Canopy Cycle", definitely going to include the UG and BG one, don't know what to cut yeat (probably at least 1 cycle land), but I've got some time to think about it
Rejoice!
But there's always Trade Routes!
What do you think about Wrenn and Six Umtiger? I play Restore in my ist, which seems very similar. Is it worth it? It's probably going to get killed after one round, but you do get the upside of gaining some life, or a chance of it surviving.
Also do you think Hall of Heliod is good enough? I run 6 enchantments, all very essential pieces to the game-plan. I'd like to compare it to Academy Ruins, the difference being that Ruins gets back artifacts that sacrifice themselves (in my list I run both Expedition Map and Oblivion Stone). I just feel like I'm already running to many non-colored-producing lands as it is, don't know if I can or should make room for this one.
So, I think Wrenn and Six is a good card to run, can produce fun interactions, and give decent value (especially for costing only RG. However, my concern with it would be how it's not an "explosive" card. One of the trends in EDH produced by WOTC printed commander decks annually and releasing a Commander Masters/Horizons set annually is the horrible power-creep in the format. Many incremental advantage engines that would have been great 4-5 years ago are merely "good" nowadays.
At the end of the day, I just run whatever I feel like running regardless because you only get so much time to play. Just play what you want. At the moment, I don't have the space to run an engine like Wrenn and Six. But I wouldn't mind cutting something like Trinket Mage or Bringer of the Black Dawn for it. I feel like those two cards have been underperforming for me lately.
Restore is a great card that I'm not currently running. But I have in the past. Man, getting a land from someone else's graveyard has produced some nice interactions for me.
My current decklist only has six enchantments: Sylvan Library, Exploration, Burgeoning, Manabond, Prismatic Omen, and Trade Routes. Exploration is the best card in the deck. It's the card that I never want to dredge into my graveyard and get exiled (well that and an incidental guild gate). Even with only 6 enchantments, I'd still say that Hall of Heliod's Generosity is a slam dunk include. It could've had a better name but I feel the same about Ramnunap Excavator (aka Magus of the Crucible).
With it in your 99, you just get Life from the Loam and go to town until you dredge Volrath's Stronghold and/or Hall of Heliod. Then you recur what you need, be it a Sun Titan/Eternal Witness or Exploration.
What would be your cuts for Wrenn and Hall of Heliod?
I cut Boseiju awhile ago since I don't play against blue counters in my meta. I cut it for Horizon Canopy. Now I will cut Canopy for the Hall.
Here is my current decklist on tapped out: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/17-02-19-landsdec/?cb=1559407434
I feel Wrenn and Six's first ability is the one we should focus on. I believe it will only live one turn, but just the upside of getting a land back is good enough + life gain + the possibility of 2 or more activations + the really small chance of ulting + the even smaller chance of pinging someone or something for 1. Yeah, it feels like it should fit right in. I'm going to wait a couple of weeks though, for the price to drop to a normal ammount ^^
I never got the bringer of the Black down choice in your list btw, it's waaay to slow imo, also actual horror to reveal it off Ad Nauseum, there's way better tutors to run I believe.
I run the same enchantments, except for Trade Routes, I play Journey to Eternity instead, which, I have to say, has been overperforming greatly.
I would probably cut Boseiju as well, it has been underperforming.
I need to make room for the UG and the BG Canopy's as well though, probably going to cut a cycle land (Currently running 6, the BUG ones + 3 Amonkhet ones wiht G in them) and either Blast Zone, Blighted Fen or Riftstone Portal.
I think it's definitely time to consider ultimates when grading walkers for EDH. Commander is very different now. Grinding value to win games is pretty tough when any given opponent can just win in one turn. Might as well have an insane pay-off for that grind. Ultimates are also way more achievable than people seem to think (proliferate, extra turns, etc.). A planeswalker threatens to ultimate in about a third of the games I play. The only walker whose ultimate I don't consider is Jace, TMS because he's really that good.
I have revealed Bringer off of Ad Naus so many times. But I still haven't cut him because he's cool and it's a 40 life format. It makes me feel good when people have to read the card.
Also you're playing way different commander games then I am I think, bc unless there's somebody playing a dedicated superfriends deck, I rarely see a PW ult (ofcourse you've got the Doubling Season shenanigans, but those don't count here). People play enough spot/mass removal or attack them as soon as one hits play. It's become common sense to do this.
Nissa is very good, I agree, definitely way easier to ult (1 turn vs 3), however 2 mana vs 5 mana is a huge difference.
They play very differently.
With Nissa you plop her down and plan to ult her the turn after.
Wrenn plays more like Regrowth with very big upside, people will kill it more often then not.
I'm going to try him out, if I get my hands on one (Wrenn).
Opponents will attack Wrenn even if it's not good though. So you shouldn't use that as a measure of its worth. You'll likely have no blockers, and attacking without scaling is poor in a 40 life format. So why attack for chip damage, when you can attack and remove a card? Either way, if you push people to commit to the board, it's more devastating when you trigger Child of Alara. It's one reason why Jace, TMS has been so good for me.
For those of you considering Wrenn? I just want to know what your take is on Jace, TMS? It seems like I'm the only one playing it.
Just to clarify, I like Wrenn's ultimate but not the +1 enough, even though it only costs RG to play. I'll stand on my assertion of planeswalkers though. For their mana costs, most of them are not impactful enough (without enablers) to play without their ability to threaten an ultimate. That is, if you're not scared of the ultimate or building around the static ability, the PW is not worth including most of the time. I just don't think grinding is where it's at anymore.
If I take nine from Bringer, so what? That's just the cost of doing business (running a pet card). Now if I take 9 + 8 from Bringer and Borborygmos Enraged...then I lose. Got to admit, that's why I took Bobo out. But EDH is about having fun.
In a 4-player game, Wrenn will not push people to overcommit. Same as Jace (if we're talking 1v1, there's a different argument to be had, but I feel like this deck functions better in multiplayer anyways).
Jace is a great card. Played him in Legacy, a long time ago. Brainstorm (JTMS) is really powerful in a deck where you're constantly shuffling your deck. It has the same problem Wrenn has though, in that you cannot protect it, it costs 4 mana for a (which, if you put it like that is really, really weak), it won't live 1 turn-cycle and you'll never get to ult him. Wrenn has the advantage of costing only 2, and even though our deck runs more then 55 lands, we're still very mana hungry, so this actually matters.
I wouldn't run Jace over Wrenn if I had the choice no, I'd like to give Wrenn his fair chance, even knowing I'll only use his abbility twice (maximum), gaining me some incremental life in the process.
The general consensus on Jace in the EDH community is that it is underwhelming in a multiplayer format, I share that opinion. In 1v1 it can protect itself, control your opponents draws, drown you in card advantage and ultimately win you the game. In a 4-player pod? Brainstorm once? Maybe 2 times if you're really lucky? Unsummon + Brainstorm if you're lucky?
I also believe playing pet-cards is totally fine man, I do think Jace is one as well (Yeah, it's really good with Oracle, I know ;)).
It will never live, it won't force people to overcommit, and even if it does live 1 turn cycle you just paid 4 mana for 2 brainstorms (which is not the worst, but also, nothing to write home about)
In a lot of EDH games, there just aren't any creatures in play turns 1-3. So if I play Jace TMS on curve, I'll get two uses. If I can get a Maze of Ith, it goes even further. Most of the time, Jace TMS isn't played on curve. If I play it after a Child of Alara trigger, it will also get two uses. So while Jace TMS is a card that I personally aim to play as much as possible, it's definitely not just a "pet" card. I know you called it that, but it's leagues above something like Bringer of the Black Dawn.
Jace TMS is only underwhelming in EDH compared to his reputation in constructed, his price-tag, and cEDH. Many players also build their decks wrong with him. Jace's vulnerabilities are well over-stated in EDH. He's not going to win the game on his own like he would in 1v1. But he's solid and I reliably activate him over and over in my Momir Vig and Brago decks (decks prepared with creatures to block).
If you don't think Jace is good, that's fine. But it's still better than Wrenn. Wrenn has a lower cmc and a better ultimate. Play new cards if you prefer to.
a.) 2UU for 2 Brainstorms and life > RG for 2 Raise Deads and life.
b.) In fact, any combination of activations of any of Jace's abilities > the same number of activations of Wrenn's abilities.
c.) Wrenn only has an advantage over Jace TMS early, but if you play him early you might get 0 value (especially in low-fetch builds).
d.) When you play against exile effects (one of Lands.dec vulnerabilities), Wrenn might get 0 value.
I do agree that it is miles better then Bringer of the Black Down.
I would define a pet card as a card that you know isn't good enough to be in that specific deck, has little synergy with the rest of the deck, but you play annyway. I think most people would agree with me when saying Jace isn't good enough to be played in MOST commander decks, and certainly not in this one.
Actually Jace is not played in Cedh, non of the top-decks are running him.
Ofcourse he's better when you have creatures laying around to block, but we're arguing over playing him in Lands.dec, in which he doesn't belong, because we're not a typical control deck that runs 6-10 Creature-wrath's, or a Stax deck that locks everything down, or an extra turns deck, or a superfriends deck,... For sure he will be better in any of those decks, can we at least agree on that?
To me it seems to boil down to our differences in playgroups. Jace would'nt make it around 1 Cycle where I play, except for after a COA wrath. Can we agree that 2UU for 1 Brainstorm (sometimes 2) is just bad? Because if so, Jace would be bad in my meta.