Most the creatures in this deck seem to be humans, have you tried running cavern of souls? karakas might kinda decent to bounce your commander in response to getting tucked or exiled!
Hi! I just wanted to drop by and say that I really love this list that you have put together. I tested it out first with proxies and I'm definitely building it this week. I really love how aggressive it is and how it has a control aspect to it too. Besides beatdown with my puppy is sweeeeet. lol.
I'd like to ask for your advice though. If I were to include Ravages of War (slowly saving for it), Mana Crypt, scroll rack, and solitary visionary, what would I have to take out? Also, wouldn't it be nice to include a Wasteland alongside the Strip Mine?
what would be a good cut to sneak in a mana crypt?
I would probably go with Aura of Silence It's really nice, but not necessary with the amount of art/ench hate it already runs and the stax effect is only partially useful.
Thanks for asking, sorry it took so long to get back to you@
Most the creatures in this deck seem to be humans, have you tried running cavern of souls? karakas might kinda decent to bounce your commander in response to getting tucked or exiled!
I didn't want to run cavern because it would be semi-dead in my opening hand if I wanted to cast Isamaru, and the uncounterable thing isn't that much of a bonus from what I've seen. Most of the time it's either my recursion or my equipment that gets counterd, or my LD/Stax stuff, not my beaters. Karakas is banned, unfortunately, or I'd totally run it >.<
Hi! I just wanted to drop by and say that I really love this list that you have put together. I tested it out first with proxies and I'm definitely building it this week. I really love how aggressive it is and how it has a control aspect to it too. Besides beatdown with my puppy is sweeeeet. lol.
I'd like to ask for your advice though. If I were to include Ravages of War (slowly saving for it), Mana Crypt, scroll rack, and solitary visionary, what would I have to take out? Also, wouldn't it be nice to include a Wasteland alongside the Strip Mine?
Like I said above, the Aura could probably go. It's good, but not on the level of some of the cards you mentioned. Ingot gets replaced by Crypt (I'd do that myself but I don't own one >.<) O-ring is also really good, but Rack is strictly better. Not serving the same purpose, but there's a ton of removal in here, going a little lighter won't kill the deck. And Visionary is just a stronger, slightly slower version of the priest, so that could be cut.
And yeah, Wasteland could absolutely go in. I don't own one yet, hence it not being there >.< Thanks a ton for the replies, sorry it took so long to get back on here! Let me know how your lists turned out, I'd love to hear results
Like I said above, the Aura could probably go. It's good, but not on the level of some of the cards you mentioned. Ingot gets replaced by Crypt (I'd do that myself but I don't own one >.<) O-ring is also really good, but Rack is strictly better. Not serving the same purpose, but there's a ton of removal in here, going a little lighter won't kill the deck. And Visionary is just a stronger, slightly slower version of the priest, so that could be cut.
And yeah, Wasteland could absolutely go in. I don't own one yet, hence it not being there >.< Thanks a ton for the replies, sorry it took so long to get back on here! Let me know how your lists turned out, I'd love to hear results
I actually just came back from a late night session but I made the following modifications:
plains for mana crypt - do you think this is fine? wouldn't darksteel ingot be useful when a board wipe happens? Well, not really but the indestructibility counts I guess?
tectonic edge for wasteland - i assume you'd do the same if you had a wasteland or would you run strip, waste and tectonic?
mind stone for catastrophe since I don't have a ravages of war yet
-- would it be ok to drop mindstone?
plains for mana crypt - do you think this is fine? wouldn't darksteel ingot be useful when a board wipe happens? Well, not really but the indestructibility counts I guess?
tectonic edge for wasteland - i assume you'd do the same if you had a wasteland or would you run strip, waste and tectonic?
mind stone for catastrophe since I don't have a ravages of war yet
-- would it be ok to drop mindstone?
My apologies for the numerous questions! Just really so excited with the deck and I find your list pretty tight and difficult to modify.
Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.
Thanks, that's kind of you! Yeah, outpost and Eiganjo can both replace a plain for sure. Looks like i"ll have to put both those in myself >.<
Plains for mana crypt is a little scary. I only run 35 as is, and there are some larger drops in the deck that requier a decent mana investment. Play around with it, but in my experience 35 is as low as it goes. That change seems to make the list a little faster, and the ingot is the slowest of the ramp cards hence me suggesting the replacement. Later in the game when an artifact boardwipe happens it won't hurt to lost 1 more rock, you'll have plenty of plains/lands to cast whatever you need (Seeing as the curve is so low)
I'd probably run all 3 land hate if I had them, honestly. Kor Haven can be a nightmare, and Gaea's Cradle and Cabal Coffers need to be kill on sight. I'd run all 3 if I had them in this list.
I really wouldn't cut the mindstone. It's a 2 drop accel that replaces itself when you need, I've found it pretty awesome in almost every case. Hokori, Magus of the Disk and Ranger of Eos, while all amazing cards, are all a little slow for what they do so I would consider one of those for ravages/cataclysm. The Hokori and Magus do similar things, so if you're looking for more efficient versions of those same effects I would cut one of those. if you're looking for just straight more of them I would cut Ranger.
My experience with Scroll Rack originally in the list was that it was just a dead drop most of the time. Once I learned to play the list a little better by holding my threats/extra lands in hand, I think it would be amazing, so as soon as I get one I'm putting it back in. Kaii convinced me >.< (His post is on the previous page)
I really don't like Nevermore in multiplayer games, it just seems entirely too situational for the amount of hate you'll generate off of one player. If you're playing a combo heavy meta where one or 2 combo enablers are played in more than one deck I could see it being useful, but other than that I wouldn't run it.
Yeah, Boseju would be good to protect a 'Geddon against a counter. I could see that, but it totally sucks to draw it in the opening hand. Rule is really really strong, you'll have to test it. I personally wouldn't want to cut something else for it with already having the Canonist in there, but once you play the list you'll probably find something to cut to try it. I don't think the deck has a high enough super enchantment list to justify the tutor. If you put in the Nevermore than maybe, but I think if you go that route you go the whole enchantress subtheme with Mesa Enchantress, Academy Rector, Karmic Justice, True Conviction etc etc which isn't the direction I took my list. Definitely doable, but I would probably gut the whole equip package then and switch to enchantment voltron. The list needs to be specified in a direction or you dilute the effectiveness, hence me staying away from the enchantment idea.
No worries about the questions, I'm flattered by the interest! Let me know what works and doesn't
Ran the list with the previously mentioned modifications and it runs really well. It's such fun to run my sword wielding doggy haha. If I were to include a Loxodon Gatekeepeer what would you suggest I cut?
Edit:
Just came home from play testing and I slaughtered people with quietus spike in both my games. Hehe. Lots of fun!
I tested the gatekeeper and Blind Obedience fairly extensively and I can't recommend either. It's just not enough of an effect from what I saw. If you get to drop a Static Orb and the gatekeeper it's basically gg, but I feel that's more a pipe dream than reality.
I tested the gatekeeper and Blind Obedience fairly extensively and I can't recommend either. It's just not enough of an effect from what I saw. If you get to drop a Static Orb and the gatekeeper it's basically gg, but I feel that's more a pipe dream than reality.
Why wouldn't you recommend it? It upsets the tempo too much? I'm trying it with rule of law today.
I think it's all in the testing so if you want to try it go for it. I just found it to be not a strong enough of an effect for a 4 mana creature investment. If I'm burning 4 mana I'd rather be dropping a threat or an armageddon or geddon effect, that card isn't any of those.
I think it's all in the testing so if you want to try it go for it. I just found it to be not a strong enough of an effect for a 4 mana creature investment. If I'm burning 4 mana I'd rather be dropping a threat or an armageddon or geddon effect, that card isn't any of those.
Well that's true. I really want another Armageddon effect but ravages of war is just so expensive!
I placed in mirror entity last night and it was doing quite well. Specially paired with a sword and isamaru. It's a nice mana dump late game and it's easy on the curve.
I've heard some people swear by that card. I personally prefer it in tokens, if I want a 3 drop it's usually a sword or removal, it's hard to make a cut for the entity. Glad you've liked it though!
If you're looking for another 'Geddon effect you can always go either Cataclysm or Balancing Act, always some interesting options. Not as good as Ravages, but also not $200+ dollars >.<
I've heard some people swear by that card. I personally prefer it in tokens, if I want a 3 drop it's usually a sword or removal, it's hard to make a cut for the entity. Glad you've liked it though!
If you're looking for another 'Geddon effect you can always go either Cataclysm or Balancing Act, always some interesting options. Not as good as Ravages, but also not $200+ dollars >.<
It actually works well specially if you have isamaru out hitting with general damage. Though yeah I agree a sword would be better. I've been testing it and it's usually a late game mana sink though people seem to be so scared of it that it's nuked on sight.
Yeah, Cataclysm is good though Balancing Act would be iffy because it's purely situational. Even more situational than Cataclysm I think. RoW stil but the price... I wish it was only 200, most sites list it at 300. Yikes.
Also, do you think it would be worth running Idyllic Tutor since it can fetch the enchantments of the deck and Heliod as well?
Yeah, Idyllic is pretty good, especially if you're running a slightly heavier enchantment list than I am with things like Rule of Law, Crackdown, or any of the Darksteel Mutation cards. If you run it though you almost have to run True Conviction, that card is nuts.
Mother of RUnes is really, really good, I just don't prefer it in multiplayer but it's absolutely powerful enough to run.
Yeah, Idyllic is pretty good, especially if you're running a slightly heavier enchantment list than I am with things like Rule of Law, Crackdown, or any of the Darksteel Mutation cards. If you run it though you almost have to run True Conviction, that card is nuts.
Mother of RUnes is really, really good, I just don't prefer it in multiplayer but it's absolutely powerful enough to run.
Yeah totally, just got myself True Conviction yesterday just in case. Hehe! Now if only I could get my hads on Crackdown. If I were to shift the deck to a more enchantment heavy verison what would be the cuts?
I've been running the deck in lieu of my Kamahl deck and I like how it's a big change of pace from it. It's really nice that I have answers to most threats except Iona. >.<
Also, I'd like to be able to convert this to a 1v1 deck, in your experience how would one modify it for that format? Thanks!
Yeah totally, just got myself True Conviction yesterday just in case. Hehe! Now if only I could get my hads on Crackdown. If I were to shift the deck to a more enchantment heavy verison what would be the cuts?
I've been running the deck in lieu of my Kamahl deck and I like how it's a big change of pace from it. It's really nice that I have answers to most threats except Iona. >.<
Also, I'd like to be able to convert this to a 1v1 deck, in your experience how would one modify it for that format? Thanks!
As to the enchantment heavy version, the only thing I can think of off hand is Mesa Enchantress and Academy Rector. I'm sure there's more, I just don't have a ton of experience with an enchantress list.
As to 1v1, Mainly cutting the larger slower creatures/threats and adding in things like Pithing Needle, Nevermore, Wasteland, Mother of Runes... Stuff of that ilk. There was an Isamaru list that top 8'd a little while back I think, if you go to MTGTop8.com you can look over some decklists that ran him as the general. I have a 1v1 list that's built with him but I honestly don't think it's viable for 1v1, I think Thalia, Guardian of Thraben weenie is much, much stronger.
Is the new Lion King worth a spot in your decklist, Feverous? I'm thinking about him as the general, too.
I think he is, yeah, as a slot. I'll get one and test him but I think it's going to stick. I'm trying pretty hard to stay away from making this a token deck but that guys' just straight value, and insane food for the 'Clamp. As a general I think it's definitely viable in multiplayer as an awesome token general. If you go that route though I"d probably cut most of the equipment packages this list runs and run heavier Stax and Enchantments, I think that'd have a lot more success.
I really like your take on this build and I have some questions.
1) Why Wasteland is not in the list? I hope just because you don't own one, because it's far better than Tectonic Edge...
2) Mishra's Factory wouldn't be better than Mutavault? They do exactly the same thing while Mishra's Factory can block as a 3/3 or attack as a 3/3 if you have Heliod, God of the Sun in play. (Mutavault has the only difference that it has all creature types but I cannot see any other card that concerns about that in the list, am I wrong?)
Of course this is not something really crucial. Of course having both of them is much better as Mishra's Factory can pump Mutavault when needed, but I do not know if it's worth to have both on the downside of losing one more white mana source.
Correct on both points, and on both points I just don't own one. The factory would be pretty easy to find I just haven't done it yet, and I simply don't own a wasteland :/
I don't think that running both would be a bad thing honestly, the Tec Edge has been useful but not hugely vital, it could be replaced by one of the manlands. The biggest problem with the manlands is they require not only the initial mana investment to activate but also the equip costs each turn which can be a little taxing, hence me not running any and all that I could. If equipment could stay attached to them at all times I"d probably run 4-5 of the colorless manlands, but as they don't then a 1 or 2 of in the deck I think is about right.
Thanks for checking out the list and for the kind words, it's appreciated!
Have you thought about tangle wire as another stax element? You can tap your equipments and it won't hurt you as much. In combination with a winter orb I think it could really put a hurt down mid game too for that extra push through.
Have you thought about tangle wire as another stax element? You can tap your equipments and it won't hurt you as much. In combination with a winter orb I think it could really put a hurt down mid game too for that extra push through.
I generally try to focus my stax elements on disrupting mana production, and that 3 drop slot is pretty competitive in this dec. Usually I want to be dropping a sword that run, and equipping the next so the wire is in a really awkward position. Good card, and I would recommend testing it, but I just can't see something I could cut for it.
Yes, I agree. With the swords too many manlands are not needed as you will not need them.
I am gonna build the deck and I will just do the changes I mentioned before (-1 Tectonic Edge, - 1 Mutavault, +1 Mishra's Factory, +1 Wasteland) and I will see from there how it goes. (I won't add both Mutavault and Factory because I am still a bit concerned about the white mana sources).
Concerning the Return to Dust slot I will try it with a Disenchant at first (I do not own one anyway). In your meta is Return to Dust so much better? Does it worth the extra two mana? From my point of view Disenchant seems better anyway (ok it's a pretty good feeling to make the 2 for 1, but is that happening often?)
I have to say that the suggestion of Tangle Wire seems nice. I don't know what could be cut though.
Spirit of Labyrinth seems pretty exciting but I don't see how it could help the deck. Grand Abolisher is better against blue decks and not only, while this guy will be good only against blue decks most of the time and it messes a bit with the Sword of Fire and Ice (which you will use against the blue decks). Well that's my take on that at least.
I really do have to recommend the Return to Dust. It's one of the best removal spells ever printed for white IMO. It 2 for 1's which is huge, it gets the new Gods which is also huge, and can be an instant 1 for 1 in a pinch. I won't ever run a white deck without it.
I'd like to ask for your advice though. If I were to include Ravages of War (slowly saving for it), Mana Crypt, scroll rack, and solitary visionary, what would I have to take out? Also, wouldn't it be nice to include a Wasteland alongside the Strip Mine?
I would probably go with Aura of Silence It's really nice, but not necessary with the amount of art/ench hate it already runs and the stax effect is only partially useful.
Thanks for asking, sorry it took so long to get back to you@
I didn't want to run cavern because it would be semi-dead in my opening hand if I wanted to cast Isamaru, and the uncounterable thing isn't that much of a bonus from what I've seen. Most of the time it's either my recursion or my equipment that gets counterd, or my LD/Stax stuff, not my beaters. Karakas is banned, unfortunately, or I'd totally run it >.<
Thanks!
Hey thanks! Cuts would be:
Like I said above, the Aura could probably go. It's good, but not on the level of some of the cards you mentioned. Ingot gets replaced by Crypt (I'd do that myself but I don't own one >.<) O-ring is also really good, but Rack is strictly better. Not serving the same purpose, but there's a ton of removal in here, going a little lighter won't kill the deck. And Visionary is just a stronger, slightly slower version of the priest, so that could be cut.
And yeah, Wasteland could absolutely go in. I don't own one yet, hence it not being there >.< Thanks a ton for the replies, sorry it took so long to get back on here! Let me know how your lists turned out, I'd love to hear results
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I actually just came back from a late night session but I made the following modifications:
Since they both produce white mana and don't come into play tapped
plains for kjeldoran outpost
plains for eiganjo castle
plains for mana crypt - do you think this is fine? wouldn't darksteel ingot be useful when a board wipe happens? Well, not really but the indestructibility counts I guess?
tectonic edge for wasteland - i assume you'd do the same if you had a wasteland or would you run strip, waste and tectonic?
mind stone for catastrophe since I don't have a ravages of war yet
-- would it be ok to drop mindstone?
soltari priest for soltari visionary
What's your experience with scroll rack? Is it really useful or is it very suituational?
I'm kinda hesitant to remove o ring and aura of silence because my meta needs it. I also need to find space for nevermore.
I'm thinking of running idyllic tutor, rule of law and boseiju, who shelters all as my meta is combo heavy. What would you cut for that?
My apologies for the numerous questions! Just really so excited with the deck and I find your list pretty tight and difficult to modify.
Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.
Thanks, that's kind of you! Yeah, outpost and Eiganjo can both replace a plain for sure. Looks like i"ll have to put both those in myself >.<
Plains for mana crypt is a little scary. I only run 35 as is, and there are some larger drops in the deck that requier a decent mana investment. Play around with it, but in my experience 35 is as low as it goes. That change seems to make the list a little faster, and the ingot is the slowest of the ramp cards hence me suggesting the replacement. Later in the game when an artifact boardwipe happens it won't hurt to lost 1 more rock, you'll have plenty of plains/lands to cast whatever you need (Seeing as the curve is so low)
I'd probably run all 3 land hate if I had them, honestly. Kor Haven can be a nightmare, and Gaea's Cradle and Cabal Coffers need to be kill on sight. I'd run all 3 if I had them in this list.
I really wouldn't cut the mindstone. It's a 2 drop accel that replaces itself when you need, I've found it pretty awesome in almost every case. Hokori, Magus of the Disk and Ranger of Eos, while all amazing cards, are all a little slow for what they do so I would consider one of those for ravages/cataclysm. The Hokori and Magus do similar things, so if you're looking for more efficient versions of those same effects I would cut one of those. if you're looking for just straight more of them I would cut Ranger.
My experience with Scroll Rack originally in the list was that it was just a dead drop most of the time. Once I learned to play the list a little better by holding my threats/extra lands in hand, I think it would be amazing, so as soon as I get one I'm putting it back in. Kaii convinced me >.< (His post is on the previous page)
I really don't like Nevermore in multiplayer games, it just seems entirely too situational for the amount of hate you'll generate off of one player. If you're playing a combo heavy meta where one or 2 combo enablers are played in more than one deck I could see it being useful, but other than that I wouldn't run it.
Yeah, Boseju would be good to protect a 'Geddon against a counter. I could see that, but it totally sucks to draw it in the opening hand. Rule is really really strong, you'll have to test it. I personally wouldn't want to cut something else for it with already having the Canonist in there, but once you play the list you'll probably find something to cut to try it. I don't think the deck has a high enough super enchantment list to justify the tutor. If you put in the Nevermore than maybe, but I think if you go that route you go the whole enchantress subtheme with Mesa Enchantress, Academy Rector, Karmic Justice, True Conviction etc etc which isn't the direction I took my list. Definitely doable, but I would probably gut the whole equip package then and switch to enchantment voltron. The list needs to be specified in a direction or you dilute the effectiveness, hence me staying away from the enchantment idea.
No worries about the questions, I'm flattered by the interest! Let me know what works and doesn't
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Edit:
Just came home from play testing and I slaughtered people with quietus spike in both my games. Hehe. Lots of fun!
It seems interesting and i always wanted to do that. I wanna be that punk in game messing with creature board state
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Why wouldn't you recommend it? It upsets the tempo too much? I'm trying it with rule of law today.
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Well that's true. I really want another Armageddon effect but ravages of war is just so expensive!
I placed in mirror entity last night and it was doing quite well. Specially paired with a sword and isamaru. It's a nice mana dump late game and it's easy on the curve.
If you're looking for another 'Geddon effect you can always go either Cataclysm or Balancing Act, always some interesting options. Not as good as Ravages, but also not $200+ dollars >.<
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How about Mother of Runes? She's a must in any white weenie deck!
*edit*
Saw the line mentioning she is better in 1v1, never mind !
It actually works well specially if you have isamaru out hitting with general damage. Though yeah I agree a sword would be better. I've been testing it and it's usually a late game mana sink though people seem to be so scared of it that it's nuked on sight.
Yeah, Cataclysm is good though Balancing Act would be iffy because it's purely situational. Even more situational than Cataclysm I think. RoW stil but the price... I wish it was only 200, most sites list it at 300. Yikes.
Also, do you think it would be worth running Idyllic Tutor since it can fetch the enchantments of the deck and Heliod as well?
Mother of RUnes is really, really good, I just don't prefer it in multiplayer but it's absolutely powerful enough to run.
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Yeah totally, just got myself True Conviction yesterday just in case. Hehe! Now if only I could get my hads on Crackdown. If I were to shift the deck to a more enchantment heavy verison what would be the cuts?
I've been running the deck in lieu of my Kamahl deck and I like how it's a big change of pace from it. It's really nice that I have answers to most threats except Iona. >.<
Also, I'd like to be able to convert this to a 1v1 deck, in your experience how would one modify it for that format? Thanks!
As to the enchantment heavy version, the only thing I can think of off hand is Mesa Enchantress and Academy Rector. I'm sure there's more, I just don't have a ton of experience with an enchantress list.
As to 1v1, Mainly cutting the larger slower creatures/threats and adding in things like Pithing Needle, Nevermore, Wasteland, Mother of Runes... Stuff of that ilk. There was an Isamaru list that top 8'd a little while back I think, if you go to MTGTop8.com you can look over some decklists that ran him as the general. I have a 1v1 list that's built with him but I honestly don't think it's viable for 1v1, I think Thalia, Guardian of Thraben weenie is much, much stronger.
I think he is, yeah, as a slot. I'll get one and test him but I think it's going to stick. I'm trying pretty hard to stay away from making this a token deck but that guys' just straight value, and insane food for the 'Clamp. As a general I think it's definitely viable in multiplayer as an awesome token general. If you go that route though I"d probably cut most of the equipment packages this list runs and run heavier Stax and Enchantments, I think that'd have a lot more success.
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Correct on both points, and on both points I just don't own one. The factory would be pretty easy to find I just haven't done it yet, and I simply don't own a wasteland :/
I don't think that running both would be a bad thing honestly, the Tec Edge has been useful but not hugely vital, it could be replaced by one of the manlands. The biggest problem with the manlands is they require not only the initial mana investment to activate but also the equip costs each turn which can be a little taxing, hence me not running any and all that I could. If equipment could stay attached to them at all times I"d probably run 4-5 of the colorless manlands, but as they don't then a 1 or 2 of in the deck I think is about right.
Thanks for checking out the list and for the kind words, it's appreciated!
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I generally try to focus my stax elements on disrupting mana production, and that 3 drop slot is pretty competitive in this dec. Usually I want to be dropping a sword that run, and equipping the next so the wire is in a really awkward position. Good card, and I would recommend testing it, but I just can't see something I could cut for it.
It's really solid. I just wish it had flash >.< I'll definitely consider it, it'll probably find it's way in. It's a sweet card, no question.
I really do have to recommend the Return to Dust. It's one of the best removal spells ever printed for white IMO. It 2 for 1's which is huge, it gets the new Gods which is also huge, and can be an instant 1 for 1 in a pinch. I won't ever run a white deck without it.
Glad you're building, I hope you like the deck!
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