Marath, Will of the Wild - Tokens big and small Deck ver 0.4
Table of Contents
Brief history of the deck
Why you should consider this deck
Deck list & Statistics
Understanding the deck
Noteworthy Combos & Token Strategies
Extra Card Considerations & Alternate Strategies
Update history
Brief History of the deck
I have a dream. I have always wanted to play a token based EDH for years. During the time when Ghave (my 1st commander) was spoilt I was elated, finally a token general that isn't Sliver Queen or Rhys. After playing with Ghave for a year I came to realise that Ghave wasn't the token commander I was looking for. Reason? He only create weenies, what happen to the fabulous 3/3 elephant tokens that we love? Those 4/4 angel tokens or the 6/6 wurms? There is no other way to make them besides using Rhys?
Trostani was revealed and along it, populate. It was really a welcoming sight to see that the fatty tokens are finally getting some love. I quickly whip up a list to restart my token journey. Playing games with Trostani made me realise 2 major problem with it... It is the exact reverse of Ghave, populate is just so FAILZ with weenie tokens. What makes it worse was that Selesnya has no other means of winning via tokens besides relying on the combat phase 100%.
So I secretly wish that there is a commander that can actually churn out tokens of varied power/toughness levels. A commander that can make me say that Avenger of Zendikar belongs to this deck and not just a simple good stuff elemental that produces plants. A token commander that doesn't rely too much on the combat phase. On the 8th of Oct Marath was revealed over on WOTC and my call is finally answered. Finally the Naya general I am looking for to lead my token deck. Hence, here's the current deck list which I am looking at, a GWr shell gathered from pieces of my current Trostani.dec. Please feel free to comment and suggest, I really appreciate them.
Why you should consider this deck
Do consider giving this deck a whirl if you:
Like tokens, weenie AND fatty
Like a deck with mixed aggro and combo options
Love Math
Break out a big smile when you double up something
Like zoo, this deck is choke full of different types of tokens here and there
Like to play with the numerous interactions and synergies between the cards
Embrace the swarm mentality, FOR THE ZERG! (oops sorry wrong game)
This deck might not be suitable for those who:
Doesn't like bringing extra side accessories (dice and counters) besides the deck to a gaming night.
Hate tokens
Like control decks and good stuff decks more
Likes simplicity
Gets a headache when trying to differentiate between 1/1s, 2/2s, */*s tokens
Dislike any form of infinites, be it a 3+ card infinite
Marath is a versatile general that has numerous abilities, like a swiss army knife. Apart from the damage ability, it can go either of the 2 routes; the +1/+1 counter route or/and the token generating route. For the +1/+1 route, stuff that interact with is are abilities like devour, persist, evolve, graft. All these are abilities which doesn't really focus much on the token aspect. Since I am trying to make a token themed deck, the +1/+1 route and the ping ability will have to take a backseat. I would also want the deck to be distinct from my Vorel deck which focus solely just on the +1/+1 counters.
Let us take a look at the primary ability we will focus on for this deck, token generating capabilities. Marath is able to create a green X/X elemental token based on the number of +1/+1 counters we remove from it. This is an extremely good ability to have as sometimes we want a big fatty token to populate, while other times we would like to have a swarm of weenie tokens that we can take advantage of. The way that Marath "replenishes its materials (+1/+1 counters)" is by going back to the command zone and get cast back into action again with commander tax. The more tax we pay the more "materials" we get to use. This is pretty interesting as we can often make it go back by using up all its +1/+1 counters without needing a sac engine. Do take note that its ability is only available when cast, we can't really blink, reanimate it from the graveyard or tutor it out from the library right into the battlefield.
From the primary ability we can already establish the theme of the deck, in this deck we will focus on the following:
Token doubling for all token sizes
Small focus on Populate for big tokens as it is only part of the deck's capabilities
Small focus on small token strategies, like triggering numerous ETB/LTB abilities, Conspire, Convoke
Ability to make use of the tokens other than the combat phase. With the inclusion of Red, numerous options have opened.
Some method of self-replicating token engines
Some form of defense against aggro, in this case Lifegain via tokens
General Strategies of the deck
When to play Marath
This deck can be played in a few ways, as there are numerous methods to win. Unlike dedicated combo decks which aims to get their combos out fast we can afford to take some time by going aggro and semi control first. There is where our commander comes into play, don't be afraid to invest in him during the early turns when you have nothing else to cast. He can ping away all the mana dorks that are in play to slow down opponents, or create 1/1 tokens so you can skullclamp for more card advantage. Lastly he can replace itself with an X/X elemental token by using all his counters if you need to populate.
There is always something you can do with Marath, so just cast him if you can do it. There isn't a need to wait till you get the combo pieces.
About Ramping
In the ramp package you will notice the trio of cards:
Why add in a land recursion package + ability to play multiple lands a turn? One of the main reasons is the deck runs fetchlands and Rings of Brighthearth, with these it is actually better to run a land recursion package than just straight mana dorks/rocks/land ramp spells. The second reason is the deck features a couple of landfall token generators/enchancers, Rampaging Baloths & Avenger of Zendikar. Rampaging Baloths also combos well with Perilous Forays to bring in more lands. The third reason is recurring Grove of the Guardian, a very powerful token generator (what more can you ask of a 8/8 vigilance token).
Noteworthy Combos & Token Synergies
Marath is a general choked full of combos. In my opinion Marath ranks higher than Ghave in the threat department, but due to the limited number of tutors and sheer variety of combo card types, it is not as consistant as Ghave. The combos are categorised with Commander specific combos first followed by the other combos found in the deck.
Commander specific infinite - Mana rock engine FTW
I guess we all know that the basalt+rings combo, that generates infinite colorless mana. What makes this combination so endearing to Marath is the Rings can be used on Marath's ability. We can start off by using just 1x +1/+1 counter, double it up with Rings of Brighthearth to put back 2 counters on Marath... then we grow it exponentially to get enough ammo to blast our way to the win.
Commander specific infinite - Echoing Crusade/Denizen
Using 1 initial mana, create a 1/1 elemental token using Marath's 1x +1/+1 counter. As the 1/1 creature ETB, it triggers Ivy Lane Denizen, which will target Marath and give 1x +1/+1 counter back. The creature that ETB also triggers Mana Echoes, which will give 2+ colorless mana (Marath + counter + any other elementals). With this loop we can generate as much mana and creature tokens as we want. With Cathars' Crusade instead of the denizen, the tokens will be grow stronger per iteration too.
Using 1 initial mana, create a 1/1 elemental token using Marath's 1x +1/+1 counter. 2x 1/1 creatures will ETB due to doubling season's ability, generating 6 colorless with Mana echoes. Use another one of Marath's +1/+1 counter and 1 mana to target itself to add +1/+1 counter, which will yield 2x due to doubling season. Rinse and repeat until we get enough
Darien converts our damage taken into 1/1 creature tokens. When the 1/1 creature ETB and triggers Warstorm surge, target ourself with that 1 damage. The 1/1 creature also nets 1 life on ETB with Essence Warden, negating the 1 damage taken from the surge. The 1 damage will resolve and the cycle repeats itself again, netting infinite creatures.
This engine gets interesting when there is an anthem effect around, like Mirari's Wake or Cathars' Crusade. With the 1 damage taken, Darien will generate a 2/2 now, which will net 1 life and 2 damage to us. 2 damage will creature 2x 2/2 creatures. Here is where the split damage comes in, we only need 1 of the warstorm surge damage trigger hit us and the other one we can target any other creature or player. The 2 damage to us will always net 2x 2/2 creatures + 2 life which will negate the damage. Hence infinite damage established.
Token engine infinite - Recursion from the Grave
Pre-requisite: Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar + Wurmcoil Engine or any other creature that will net 2x tokens on ETB/LTB/Die. In the case of wurmcoil and additional 2 mana is needed. Effect: Infinite tokens of the type the creature comes with.
Sacrifice Wurmcoil to Ashnod's Altar, yielding 2 mana, and 2 wurm tokens. Use 4 mana (2 + initial 2) to pay for Nim Deathmantle trigger, bringing back Wurmcoil engine. Sacrifice one of the wurm tokens and wurmcoil engine, netting 4 mana. Rinse and repeat.
Persist Infinity - Infinite Life+
With the inclusion of kitchen finks the deck's potential to combo off is increased by a few routes. The combo works in a way that the -1/-1 counter from persist is negated by the +1/+1 counter Kitchen Finks receives on ETB, hence making the ouphe "recursion friendly". There are a few routes to combo off with kitchen finks with various cards in the deck, as listed below:
Kitchen Finks + 1x +1/+1 counter gifter (choose 1: Archangel of Thune/Cathars' Crusade/Ivy Lane Denizen) + 1x sacrifice outlet (choose 1: Goblin Bombardment/Ashnod's Altar/Perilous Forays) = Infinite life + (Choose one of more depending on what you use: Creature growth/Mana/Lands etc)
Kitchen Finks + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle = infinite life + infinite creature ETB (for direct damage triggers or aurashards)
This combo is not really on theme with tokens though, oh well. Placeholder till I find something more in theme.
Token Wincon - Direct damage
These are the combo win-conditions of the deck for tokens, we can fit any of them to any token generator and they will convert the tokens generated into direct damage which doesn't need to rely on the combat phase. Hurray for Naya!
Card Advantage - Draw for 3
A combo from the 2 of the most used artifacts in EDH. Surprisingly, not many players know about this combo. Tap Sensei Divining Top to draw a card, and spend 2 to copy the ability with Rings of Brighthearth. The 1st draw will put Sensei Divining Top back to the top of the library and the 2nd draw will draw the top, cast the top back.
Ramp advantage - Rampant Growth+ all you can for an initial 1 investment
Classic mono green landfall combo, even stronger in a token deck. Spend an initial 1 to sacrifice any creature (or token) you control (but not the baloth) to perilous foray. Search your library for a land card with a basic land type and put into the battlefield tapped. Rampaging Baloths' landfall ability triggered, creating a 4/4 beast token. Tap the beast token to untap the newly searched basic land, tap the land for 1. Rinse and repeat until you run out of lands with basic land type. Earthcraft is can be substituted with Mana Echoes.
A section for cards which are not added to the main deck. Some of them are a natural fit into the deck, but are cut due to the limited amount of slots, others may be not "on-theme". Nevertheless, all of them are really powerful cards/strategies. Feel free to add them to the decklist if you find the initial decklist is not to your liking. If you have any cards you will like to share, do give me a post, thanks.
Provide the deck with more options should Marath is tucked/pith'ed.
Takes tokens to a whole different level, Populate becomes very powerful
The pinnacle of token strategy is actually creating token clones of any creature. Usually clones is in the domain of blue, but we do have cards in Red and Green that can mimic the ability to a certain extent. Kiki-Jiki is one such card, so strong that he actually creates a deck archetype by itself in other formats. What makes these cards so good is they double the effectiveness of our main token ETB producers (Armada Wurm and gang) and provide good targets for the populate mechanic.
Exploring more on tokens - Enhancing the combat phase
Makes going aggro a very good option should the combo route failed (Marath tucked/pith'ed, Purphoros AWOL'ed lol)
Token swarm becomes very dangerous with these on board, especially hellrider.
This is mainly for decks who want to give their combat phase an extra oomph. Do consider giving these a whirl when you want to tone down the "Infinity and beyond" aspect of the deck and concentrate mainly on good old fashion beatdown (with a little twist in our favor lol). One interesting card to take note is Hellrider, the devil makes attacking with a swarm of 0/1 tokens viable. It is always a good laugh on the table when an opponent is downed by un-buffed plant tokens.
This group of cards are excellent choices if one decides not to go on the offensive with Marath. Shivan Harvest is a really great card to use in a token deck by providing a consistent way to kill off opponents' land resources, augmenting Aura Shards destroying mana rocks. Martyr's Bond + Martyr's Cause forms a pair to thwart off any kind of damage done to us and help clear the board of opponents' creatures. Do bear in mind that stax like strategies like this might not be really welcoming in some playgroups.
The +1/+1 side of Marath
Cards in this category: Workhorse, Spike Weaver and cousins, Kalonian Hydra and fellow comrades, Immaculate magistrate and the elven party + a lot others Reason as to why they is not in: requires a re-tooling of the entire deck, entire different strategy from tokens Why they should be considered:
Provide Marath an avenue to replenish its 'fuel' besides recasting him over and over again
Presents an alterate strategy for Marath, focusing more on creature quality (+1/+1 counters) than quantity (tokens)
One theme that is not really explored in the current deck is the +1/+1 counter theme. We briefly touched a little on it with cards like Doubling Season, Archangel of Thune and Ivy Lane Denizen. Like tokens, this is really a huge theme and it is really hard for the 2 themes to co-exist without one severely outshadowing the other. If I were to add a couple of choices into the deck, Spike Feeder and Spike Weaver will be the 2 that will be in. Spike Feeder forms a 2 card combo with Archangel of Thune which also gives every other creature (include Marath) and endless supply of +1/+1 counters. Spike Weaver is a more defensive card which can save our lives should we constantly get attacked, or can be used as a political tool.
Persist
Cards in this category: Kitchen Finks, Woodfall Primus, Cauldron of Souls Reason as to why they is not in: Too 'boring' with T&N + Not on tokens theme + *Personal reason - Persist strategy is covered in my Vorel.dec, like +1/+1 counters* Why they should be considered:
Gives Marath another way to use its give +1/+1 counter ability, to negate the -1/-1 counter from persist.
They give more ways to combo out to infinity
Makes Tooth and Nail very very deadly (which is something I kind of dread)
A strategy I try my best not to include although they provide more utility and give the deck more resiliance. With existing combo pieces like Ivy Lane Denizen, Archangel of Thune, Cathars' Crusade + sacrifice engines like Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, including any of these will increase the deck's potential to combo out by 2 fold. Main reason of not including is I don't really want my Tooth and Nail to tutor out the same 2 cards every game and win.
Keen Sense, drawing with damage Suggested by Volango
Cards in this category: Keen Sense, Zhur-Taa Druid, Hellrider Reason as to why they is not in: No space in deck. Need to test Why they should be considered:
An alternate method to get card draw
Keen sense is really a good card, I got intrigued by it the moment Volango suggested the card. The current deck list only have 2 creatures that benefit from this aura, Marath itself and Purphoros (when devotion to R hits 5+). In my opinion we will need a couple more cards which can benefit from Keen Sense (without relying on dealing combat damage) in the deck so as not to make the aura card a dead-weight when Marath & Purphoros are not available. Zhur-Taa Druid and Hellrider are 2 such cards, which means 3 free slots are needed, more testing to be done.
Dropped strategies
Token Strategy - Conspire!
Reason dropped: Not enough spells that is worth copying, and Wort is only worth casting when I draw her, she is not even within the top 10 targets of creature tutors.
Most of the time our tokens, especially the 1/1s and the 0/1 plants, are sitting around doing nothing as they are unable to attack due to them being too small. Give them some job to do! With Wort around, we can conspire all our red and green instants/sorceries. Double the use of our green tutors and utility spells! One special tech is the card Reiterate, a red instant which allows us to copy any sorcery/instant on the stack. Use it to copy an opponent's spell, especially those pesky blue mages who like to counter here and there.
Update History
1st November - Decklist 0.4
//Token producers section
- Armada Wurm: 1x 5/5 trample token doesn't really cut it. Out to give back the slot to Trostani's Summoner.
- Knight-captain of Eos : Clunky to use. Tokens better used to chump block. Only good in niche situations when damage is inevitable. Switch out to test Assemble the Legion
+ Assemble the Legion: Testing out. 1st impressions are not bad after 6games. Max muster counter reached is 3, not bad for a high threat card that can survive 3 turns.
+ Trostani's Summoner: I am always debating between her and Avenger of Zendikar as both are the same cast cost. Rhino token (+ trample) > Plant token.
//Removal and Control
- Beast Within: Out for the stronger Chaos Warp
+ Chaos Warp: Powerful card which I forgot all about it. Thanks to TreyKapfer for suggesting it.
//Card Advantage & Topdeck fixing
- Cream of the Crop: Okay I admit I am very lazy. This is an extremely powerful card that fixes your top deck, like a mini-scry. It gets better when more creatures with power >=2 ETBs. The problem is when cards like Trostani's Summoner ETB with Cathar's Crusade in play, it is going to take quite a bit of time to resolve all the triggers. I could have squeezed in maybe 1 more short game with the time I used on sifting my top deck, oh well.
//Planeswalkers
+ Xenagos, the Reveler: Mainly used for the +1 'Gaea's Cradle' ability. The 2/2 haste satryr is also not a bad option.
//Lifegain
- Essence Warden: Didn't even notice that she is no in deck. Totally outclassed by Suture Priest.
+ Kitchen Finks: Placeholder card, very powerful that it enables a stew of more combos. Not in theme though, need to think about that.
24th October - Decklist 0.3
//Token producers section
- Avenger of Zendikar: Not a fan of plant tokens, always wish that he was something else like Rampaging Baloths or Armada Wurm when I drew him. Out
- Wort, the Raid Mother: Raiding and conspiracy is good but having nothing to conspire is something to look into.
+ Knight-Captain of Eos: More Soldier madness with Elspeth, a token based 'fogger' like Spike Weaver.
+ Requiem Angel: More rattlesnakes. In a meta that is invested heavily in creature sweeps, this card can prove to be an worthy inclusion
//Tutors section
- Tooth and Nail: Good stuff but I always think of cutting this card whenever I draw it/win the game with it. A boring win-con.
//Defense section
- Reiterate: Without Wort this is not really worth running. the RR cost also makes it hard to cast multiple times
//Card Advantage section
+ Abundance: A very powerful fixer especially when we are land screwed or mana flooded. Good in neutering some opponent strategies too
//Planeswalker section
+ Garruk, Primal Hunter: Basically any planeswalker with a +1 ability to generate creature tokens MUST be in this deck. Garruk doubles as a Harmonize when we really need the card advantage.
Max casting cost of cards in deck reduced to 6.
14th October - Slight change to lands, added 2 more combos
12th October - Added extra card, alternate strategies section
11th October - Minor changes to decklist
- Parallel Evolution: A win more card. Most of the time I find it hard to cast
+ Sterling Grove: Excellent protection and tutor for enchantments. What sold me is I can double it if Rings is in play.
I think you need to pay more attention, your combo's don't work due to the errata.
They work, they just require a mana to jump start them. For instance:
Marath, Will of the Wild + Mana Echoes + Ivy Lane Denizen
Pay 1 to remove a counter from Marath to make a 1/1 token. You get 2 mana from Echoes and Ivy lane puts a counter on Marath. Use that 1 mana to make another 1/1 token, you get 3 colorless this time and put a counter back on Marath. Rinse and repeat for infinite 1/1's and colorless mana.
Works the same way with Cathar's Crusade except the tokens become ridiculously large with their own counters. Add Purphoros/Bombardment/Warstorm Surge for an on the spot win.
Marath, Will of the Wild (say just at 3 counters) + Mana Echoes + Doubling Season
Pay 1 to remove a counter from Marath, Echoes triggers and gives you 4 colorless because you get two tokens due to season. Use 1 of that to activate Marath removing a counter to put a counter on himself, he goes back up to 3 counters. Do it again, he's up to 4, again he's up to 5. Use the last floating mana to make another pair of guys, bringing Marath to 4 counters and you net another 8 colorless. Repeat the growing Marath cycle, make more guys, repeat the grow marath cycle, etc... After he's sufficiently large, you remove a counter for tokens, netting an arbitrarily large amount of mana, then activate Marath to deal damage to a player.
Requires a lot of activations but it works.
edit: The second example is technically wrong because I forgot Marath is an elemental, so you get more mana from each echoes trigger. Not that it changes how it works, just changes how many times the abilities can be activated before restarting the "cycle".
I honestly surprised that there is a use for Ivy Lane Denizen.
Some recommendations: Avenger of Zendikar. It will fill the same role as Armada Wurm in the Deathmantle Combo. Admittedly 0/1 Plant tokens aren't as impressive but there's value in redundancy.
Regal Force. I only quickly glanced over your list but it should be good card advantage in a token. I'm not sure how green creatures or green token producer's you're running though.
Spike Weaver. He's just a good green card but he is a really good good green card. He allows you to buy time to set up a combo and your general can reset his counters.
Idyllic Tutor & Sterling Grove. The majority of your combo pieces involve enchantments. Again, there is value in redundancy.
I have to admit when I first looked at this guy I did not like him, he seemed like a weak Ghave to me, but thanks to this post I am seeing some other interesting ideas. Thanks for posting!
I honestly surprised that there is a use for Ivy Lane Denizen.
Some recommendations: Avenger of Zendikar. It will fill the same role as Armada Wurm in the Deathmantle Combo. Admittedly 0/1 Plant tokens aren't as impressive but there's value in redundancy.
Regal Force. I only quickly glanced over your list but it should be good card advantage in a token. I'm not sure how green creatures or green token producer's you're running though.
Spike Weaver. He's just a good green card but he is a really good good green card. He allows you to buy time to set up a combo and your general can reset his counters.
Idyllic Tutor & Sterling Grove. The majority of your combo pieces involve enchantments. Again, there is value in redundancy.
@Bthepanda: Avenger of Zendikar
Yes AoZ is back in, replacing Trostani Summoner. As the list starts from my old Trostani shell, the list isn't tuned to Marath as of yet. Now with the ability to create small and big tokens, AoZ will be a much better choice.
Regal Force
One of the things which made Regal Force so deadly in other token decks like Ghave/Trostani is the ability to reuse the ETB. As the decklist doesn't have much recursion or blink, Fecundity is a much better choice.
Spike Weaver
An excellant choice. What is keeping me from using it is that I am too abusing it in Vorel. Want to keep my decks unique. Sometimes I just hate it when I need to face tough choices like this.
Idyllic Tutor & Sterling Grove
These 2 cards are suited more in an enchantress build imo. Strangely though, my current enchantress list is also running tokens, but is not as extensive as Marath.
Have you given Earthcraft any thought? It can help generate mana to fuel the combo, makes a decent back up for the alters.
Sun Titan is a little expensive to cast but he can pull most of your combo pieces back from the yard.
Seems like a fun list
@Vash9177: Sun Titan
The current decklist has quite a bit of 6cc creatures, and most of them are token generators. As for combo wise, Sun Titan can only bring back Nim Deathmantle and Goblin Bombardment.
I have to admit when I first looked at this guy I did not like him, he seemed like a weak Ghave to me, but thanks to this post I am seeing some other interesting ideas. Thanks for posting!
..
@Trancer99:
Yes me too when I first saw Marath I was like "wow, a mini-ghave". And yes I come to realise that Earthcraft is really good for the deck.... Noooo why it has to clash with my enchantress.dec. I should just play Earthcraft in both decks.
Oh gawd, how can I forget about T&N. T&N here in this case will be perfect as we don't have any 2 creature card win-con yet.
Increasing savagery's purpose is to replenish the +1/+1 counters on Marath? Is there anything I missed out from the card?
Post is updated with details on the main combos the deck uses. The cards with (???) are cards which I find slightly lacking or I just never play them enough. A question, between Fecundity and Well of Lost Dreams, which one is a better fit in this deck?
I, too, am taking an interest into Marath. I'm looking at your list and it's making me more excited about him. I think it's because the list has potential for combo's that you or I don't even see yet. Like how Marath + Archangel of Thune + Trostani, Selesnya's Voice + Mana Echoes = Infinite Life, Infinite X/X Tokens, and Infinite Colorless Mana.
Also, have you given any consideration to Academy Rector? With the sac potential of this deck along with the seemingly high importance of Mana Echoes, this dude gets an enchantment out around counters.
Sterling Grove also seems good here too. It's cheap, protects enchants, and if were to be destroyed it just tutors out another combo piece instead. Very versitile. I also see you like your deck filtering enchants. Mirri's Guile might be worth considering also since it comes down early and won't compete with things you'll want to play on your later turns.
Overall though, I really like the list. Oh and maybe make a "By Card Type" decklist next to the "By Function" one? It seems you're going kinda Primer-y with this post and that may help.
EDIT: I just saw that Sterling Grove was already suggested. You said it seems like too much of an "Enchantress" build type of card. Look at it this way. Your opponents HAVE to remove it before removing other enchantments, namely combo pieces. If you're going all out Wombo-Combo, then anything that takes a hit instead of combo pieces is good. That's why Spellskite was such an annoying damn card. The added benefit of the Grove though is that when it is time for it to die, it doesn't just die. It fetches something to replace itself while an opponent is now down a card.
EDIT 2: See I'm thinking about this just as much as you are. MARATH WILL SUCCEED!! Haha. I was just looking over the list again and saw that you had (???) next to Elspeth Tirel. May I suggest Elspeth, Sun's Champion instead. You don't seem to have too many 4+ power dudes in here and most of the combo ones are 3 or less. She also +1's into tokens instead of minusing. You also probably won't be getting much use out of Tirel's ult because if your board ever gets wiped it's usually by your opponent's doing not your own. Elspeth, Sun's Champion's ult also seems better in case you didn't assemble the insta-win but have a critical mass of tokens on board. 2/3 Flying Plant tokens for the win.
Thanks for pointing out a combo that I missed out. There are so much synergies in between the cards in this deck. I'll sort them out and list them in my next update.
eg.
Wincon enabler - Draw your whole deck with infinite mana
Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Sensei's Divining Top
Yep both Sterling Grove and Academy Rector are really suitable additions to the deck, Marath is the sole reason why I created the thread "Unique wincons for multiple decks" to gather feedback as to help me "see" better. There are just so many cards I want to fit into the deck, 62 cards is too little.
I really like Sterling Grove, what card should I take out to replace? Somehow I get this feeling that there will be other cards spoilt in Commander2013 that will be beneficial to us Marath players, and it will be time again to make painful cuts.
I like the replacement Elspeth, Sun Champion, and the explanation over her abilities in accordance to the deck. Just need to get a copy to test her out. Her -2 ability is really good for us. A repeatable board wipe is always welcomed.
One other card I am seriously considering is Kitchen Finks, just this one card alone makes the deck more combo-li-cious.... but but I am already using persist strategy in Vorel (although finks is not used there at all).
That being said awesome "primer" you have started here. I got quite some ideas for the Marath list I'm brewing!
Thank you Volango for liking the list.
I like both Basilisk Collar and Illusionist Bracers, they complement Marath's ability very well. It would have been a lot better if I have other creatures that can make use of the 2 equipment too. Currently my list only have 1-2 creatures who benefit from the equipment hence I didn't add them in.
Rings of Brighthearth on the other hand, works in the deck as it affects lands, artifacts and enchantments for the price of 2 per activation.
Decklist updated to contain fetches (off-color though, wish I had the onslaught fetches), thread updated with 2 more combos.
What about Keen Sense? We coul'd easily refill our hand with that.
Also since Marath is a Beast, shouldn't Contested Cliffs be in this list, especially since it doesn't take up much deckspace...
What about Keen Sense? We coul'd easily refill our hand with that.
Also since Marath is a Beast, shouldn't Contested Cliffs be in this list, especially since it doesn't take up much deckspace...
Wow I really like Keen Sense, perfect card for Marath. The 2 other cards that likes having Keen Sense around are Hellrider (perfect for attacking with tokens) and Zhur-Taa Druid (mana dork)
What card do you think I should drop for Keen Sense + the other 2 if possible? Need to really find space for them
So, I believe you should keep thespian stage but add in another card. Dark Depths combos with that, so you'll get the 20/20 indestructible flying token immediately.
And another card recommendation is Craterhoof Behemoth.
I cannot stress enough the fact that this will win you many games on the spot. Its freaking incredible. Especially in a deck where the general can create as many tokens as this guy can.
So, I believe you should keep thespian stage but add in another card. Dark Depths combos with that, so you'll get the 20/20 indestructible flying token immediately.
And another card recommendation is Craterhoof Behemoth.
I cannot stress enough the fact that this will win you many games on the spot. Its freaking incredible. Especially in a deck where the general can create as many tokens as this guy can.
Thanks shadowboy for the recommendations.
Dark Depths is a cool card. I didn't include it in as Thespian Stage is the only card that actually interacts with the land. There is no other way to cheat the 20/20 non-populate~able token into play besides the stage and paying mana to remove the counters. Another shortcoming is we are lacking in specific land tutors. Knight of the Reliquary and Crop Rotation comes into mind, but I forsee that they will be used to tutor much better lands like Gaea's Cradle or Grove of the Guardian if they are included before Dark Depths.
Craterhoof Behemoth was actually 1st in my list when I thought of building a tokens.dec. Sadly I am already running the godly beast as a wincon in my Animar.dec if not I would have place it in in a heartbeat.
But it doesn't mean it is not a good card for Marath, I strongly recommend it if you don't have "self-imposed unique wincon constrains" like me. Thanks for the recommendation.
Edit1:
WotC just revealed this -Primal Vigor
Do we need a 3rd doubler when we already have Parallel Lives and the original Doubling Season?
Small note, it affects everyone else across the board. Not a very good symmetrical ability to have.
I would cut Essence Warden for Keen Sense more carddraw means you are more likely to find other sources of lifegain and I always found that the Wardens just didn't really do enough.
I will probably run Primal Vigor once my list stands. I'm only a little annoyed that it has a cmc of 5, which not only makes it strictly worse than Doubling Season but also adds to the already cluttered 5cmc enchantment slot.
Still I think besides Ghave there's no deck which benefits form this card as much as we do and making it global means there's probably much less hate coming along your way.
For Primal Vigor, besides the 5cc cost, what I am concerned about is the number of clone effects opponents run. In a typical game of 4 players in my playgroup, usually 2-3 of the players (i.e all my opponents) will run at least 3+ clones (Phantasmal Image, Sakashima the Imposter, Phyrexian Metamorph, Dance of Many, Rites of Replication).
Having opponents cloning our token producers like Avenger of Zendikar or Wurmcoil Engine will usually lead to us be in a disadvantaged position, especially when we spent quite a bit of resources on casting the creature + Primal Vigor.
Speaking of clones, I have a rules question:
If an opponent casts Phyrexian Metamorph, choosing it to come in as Marath. Will it get 4x +1/+1 counters or 0x ?
My thinking is technically he casts metamorph but it ETBs as 'Marath' hence it is 'not considered' as 'amount of mana spent on Marath clone'. Is this correct?
//Token producers section
- Avenger of Zendikar: Not a fan of plant tokens, always wish that he was something else like Rampaging Baloths or Armada Wurm when I drew him. Out
- Wort, the Raid Mother: Raiding and conspiracy is good but having nothing to conspire is something to look into.
+ Knight-Captain of Eos: More Soldier madness with Elspeth, a token based 'fogger' like Spike Weaver.
+ Requiem Angel: More rattlesnakes. In a meta that is invested heavily in creature sweeps, this card can prove to be an worthy inclusion
//Tutors section
- Tooth and Nail: Good stuff but I always think of cutting this card whenever I draw it/win the game with it. A boring win-con.
//Defense section
- Reiterate: Without Wort this is not really worth running. the rr cost also makes it hard to cast multiple times
//Card Advantage section
+ Abundance: A very powerful fixer especially when we are land screwed or mana flooded. Good in neutering some opponent strategies too
//Planeswalker section
+ Garruk, Primal Hunter: Basically any planeswalker with a +1 ability that generates creature tokens is a MUST in this deck. Garruk also doubles as a Harmonize when we really need the card advantage in a pinch.
A little tech about Abundance, besides giving us filtering in draws and comboing with Sylvan Library, it also changes the way on how some opponents combos work:
I'm not to sure where exactly to go with this post since there isn't a primer yet(altough this thread looks promising ;)) and I also don't want to open a new thread since there are so many Marath lists up here already. Anyhow, here I go:
I want to take a more controlish approach with lot's of card-draw, spot removal and board wipes and use Marath as an engine to shoot down threats and produce tokens mainly to chump block and support stuff like Aura Shards, Regal Force and Eldrazi Monument.
I pack a lot of ramp plus mana doublers to have enough mana to keep the engine going as well as a potent recursion package in Eternal Witness, Karmic Guide, Reveillark and Sun Titan.
There's also an equipment suite containing Basilisk Collar, Illissionist's Bracers and Sunforger and multiple tutors for them along some ways to protect my creatures like Ascetiscism, Sigarda or Boros Charm
Ideally I want to always have some way to deal with any threat my opponents come up with (possibly at instant speed).
So here are my questions since you obviously already have some experience with this commander: Do you think a Marath deck can work in the way I described above?
How important are the non-Marath token producers in here exactly?
As how big of a threat is he perceived when he hits the board?
Have you ever considered Rosheen Meanderer?
Is having the mana to recast him ever an issue?
Is there a point where it just isn't profitable anymore to cast him due to mana issues?
How important is it to have mana open to activate his abilities after you cast him?
Phew, I know that's a lot of text and a LOT of questions. I really hope you have the patience and the knowledge to answer them. I would be really glad about any input
If you like Keen Sense I would add Snake Umbra either in its place or alongside it. Wonderful card that also doubles as protecting your creature.
*edit* Also I would strongly consider Assemble the Legion. It is a card that can win the game all by its lonesome. Not something a lot of other cards can say. It also gets bonus points for being absolutely obnoxious with Doubling Season.
Do you think a Marath deck can work in the way I described above?
Recursion
Yes, it is definitely feasible. Recursion is one of the best strategies that will make the deck a whole lot more resilient. In the nutshell, here is the base package that I will consider for Marath if I am playing the recursion package
Caller of the claw works wonders here as the tokens produced increase with each loop. eg. Karmic'Lark loop will be 3x tokens -> 6x tokens -> 9x tokens so on and forth. I strongly recommend to run this package. Reason to why I don't run this in my decklist is due to me having the same recursion package in Aurelia, old Ghave and Karador + the upcoming Tr'oloro.dec.
On the equipment:
Essentially if we are running recursion in a Naya control shell, cards like Basilisk Collar aren't really neccessary. There are 2 main factors of choosing not running the collar even when it works with Marath.
1) The only tutors are available in W only. The equipment tutors and precious enlightened tutor are usually used for better combo/control pieces like Skullclamp, Mana Echoes, Rings of Brighthearth etc.
2) In most times Marath will not be available to equip the collar and camp there like a goblin sharpshooter. Opponents know how deadly Marath is after 1-2 games and it will not live long.
Sunforger is a good card to run in any deck that has boros colors, my only gripe to it is the amount of slots it needs to have in a deck.
Protection
Ascetiscism doesn't really work as much as I like it to. Tried it out in a few different decks and it has always failed to protect my creatures (sad thing isn't it?). Ascetiscism is suppose to work in 2 ways, provide hexproof to creatures + give them a regeneration shield as and when needed. When opponents cannot target your creature via single target removal they will attempt to sweep. The most common sweeps around in EDH are stuff like Wrath of God, Damnation, Black Sun's Zenith, which renders regen useless.
For protection wise, Martyr's Bond and Martyr's Cause are really good cards to consider. The bond also serves as a control piece and the cause helps to prevent tuck/exile effects is need be.
How important are the non-Marath token producers in here exactly?
So far my token generator list, Rampaging Baloths and Wurmcoil Engine are the more important ones. You can do without them in a non-token theme deck. I place them in as I want the deck to be more tokeny and in theme. The most important interaction with the tokens here is the interaction with Mana Echoes, tokens of similar creature type will often yet quite a bit of mana when the echoes is around.
As how big of a threat is he perceived when he hits the board?
Big, a must kill target, said by my friends. The very first initial threat that Marath gives is the ability to ping creatures, players and planeswalkers. at 3x +1/+1 counters at first cast, it is very powerful against low toughness generals like Captain Sisay, Rafiq of the Many, Kaalia of the Vast. Next, with mana back up Marath will always certainly leave a legacy of elemental(s) when it dies.
Have you ever considered Rosheen Meanderer?
Not at all. The ability only works with Marath and a very small selected number of cards in my build. Rosheen doesn't have any vigilance which makes her very hard to utilize her 4/4 body while keeping the activated ability for use in emergency situations.
Is having the mana to recast him ever an issue?
Not really, so far I have no issues in recasting Marath up to 9 mana currently (which is around 4 times). Mana echoes really works wonders here if it sticks. The problem I always face now is the amount of colored mana I have to recast Marath a few times in a single turn for the win. Perhaps I will need a fixer/battery, like Gemstone Array to help out.
Is there a point where it just isn't profitable anymore to cast him due to mana issues?
Yes, personally I think it will not be worth it to cast Marath from the command zone after the 5th recast. On the 6th cast you will need 15 mana just to cast and enough remaining mana to actually make it worthwhile when it is out on the battlefield.
How important is it to have mana open to activate his abilities after you cast him?
I would say leave some mana open (around 1/2 of the number of +1/+1 counters on Marath) will be good. Without mana Marath is just a vanilla 'hydra' with no other abilities.
@Orgmarr:
Many thanks for your recommendations.
I tested out Keen Sense and I didn't like it. Mainly is due to the limited recursion I run to take keen sense back to my hand. Placing it on Marath is the best choice for the aura but most of the time I will like Marath to die after expending all its counters. Auras and Marath doesn't gel sadly.
Assemble the Legion is deadly with Doubling Season. This is a card which is in my 'wanted-in-but-no-space' list, alongside with Awakening Zone.
Now I have another headache, I forgot to place in Aurelia's Fury, need to find a card to cut...
Deck ver 0.4
Table of Contents
Brief History of the deck
I have a dream. I have always wanted to play a token based EDH for years. During the time when Ghave (my 1st commander) was spoilt I was elated, finally a token general that isn't Sliver Queen or Rhys. After playing with Ghave for a year I came to realise that Ghave wasn't the token commander I was looking for. Reason? He only create weenies, what happen to the fabulous 3/3 elephant tokens that we love? Those 4/4 angel tokens or the 6/6 wurms? There is no other way to make them besides using Rhys?
Trostani was revealed and along it, populate. It was really a welcoming sight to see that the fatty tokens are finally getting some love. I quickly whip up a list to restart my token journey. Playing games with Trostani made me realise 2 major problem with it... It is the exact reverse of Ghave, populate is just so FAILZ with weenie tokens. What makes it worse was that Selesnya has no other means of winning via tokens besides relying on the combat phase 100%.
So I secretly wish that there is a commander that can actually churn out tokens of varied power/toughness levels. A commander that can make me say that Avenger of Zendikar belongs to this deck and not just a simple good stuff elemental that produces plants. A token commander that doesn't rely too much on the combat phase. On the 8th of Oct Marath was revealed over on WOTC and my call is finally answered. Finally the Naya general I am looking for to lead my token deck. Hence, here's the current deck list which I am looking at, a GWr shell gathered from pieces of my current Trostani.dec. Please feel free to comment and suggest, I really appreciate them.
Why you should consider this deck
Do consider giving this deck a whirl if you:
This deck might not be suitable for those who:
Decklist and Statistics
1x Marath, Will of the Wild
//Combo dealers (3)
1x Warstorm Surge
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Goblin Bombardment
//Token Mana Givers (3)
1x Mana Echoes
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Earthcraft
//Token Generators (6)
1x Trostani's Summoner
1x Rampaging Baloths
1x Darien, King of Kjeldor
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Requiem Angel
1x Assemble the Legion
//Recursion (3)
1x Eternal Witness
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Crucible of Worlds
//Life Gain (3)
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Suture Priest
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
//Doublers (4)
1x Doubling Season
1x Parallel Lives
1x Rhys the Redeemed
1x Rings of Brighthearth
//Token Enhancers (4)
1x Archangel of Thune
1x Ivy Lane Denizen
1x Cathars' Crusade
1x Ogre Battledriver
//Sacrifice Stuff (1)
1x Perilous Forays
//Ramp (12)
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Sol Ring
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Nature's Lore
1x Skyshroud Claim
1x Cultivate
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Wood Elves
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Budoka Gardener
1x Fecundity
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
1x Skullclamp
1x Abundance
//Removal and Control (7)
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Selesnya Charm
1x Chaos Warp
1x Aura Shards
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Austere Command
1x Phyrexian Rebirth
//Defenses! (3)
1x Rootborn Defenses
1x Sundering Growth
1x Boros Charm
//Tutors (6)
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Natural Order
1x Chord of Calling
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sterling Grove
//Planeswalkers (3)
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
//Lands (36)
1x Temple Garden
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Fire-lit Thicket
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Mistveil Plains
1x Command Tower
1x City of Brass
1x Grove of the Guardian
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Strip Mine
1x Ancient Tomb
1x High Market
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Arid Mesa
1x Marsh Flats
7x Forest
5x Plains
2x Mountain
1x Marath, Will of the Wild
//Creatures (19)
1x Rhys the Redeemed
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Suture Priest
2x Budoka Gardener
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Eternal Witness
3x Wood Elves
3x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
4x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Ivy Lane Denizen
4x Ogre Battledriver
5x Archangel of Thune
6x Requiem Angel
6x Rampaging Baloths
6x Darien, King of Kjeldor
6x Wurmcoil Engine
7x Trostani's Summoner
//Enchantments (16)
2x Sterling Grove
2x Sylvan Library
2x Goblin Bombardment
2x Earthcraft
3x Fecundity
3x Aura Shards
4x Purphoros, God of the Forge
4x Parallel Lives
4x Mana Echoes
4x Abundance
5x Cathars' Crusade
5x Perilous Forays
5x Mirari's Wake
5x Doubling Season
5x Assemble the Legion
6x Warstorm Surge
1x Sol Ring
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
2x Nim Deathmantle
3x Ashnod's Altar
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Rings of Brighthearth
3x Chromatic Lantern
3x Basalt Monolith
//Sorcery (7)
1x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Nature's Lore
3x Cultivate
4x Skyshroud Claim
4x Natural Order
6x Austere Command
6x Phyrexian Rebirth
//Instant (9)
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Sundering Growth
2x Boros Charm
2x Eladamri's Call
3x Chaos Warp
3x Rootborn Defenses
3x Chord of Calling
//Planeswalkers (3)
4x Xenagos, the Reveler
5x Garruk, Primal Hunter
6x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
//Lands (36)
1x Temple Garden
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Fire-lit Thicket
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Mistveil Plains
1x Command Tower
1x City of Brass
1x Grove of the Guardian
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Strip Mine
1x Ancient Tomb
1x High Market
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Arid Mesa
1x Marsh Flats
7x Forest
5x Plains
2x Mountain
Statistics
Creatures: 19
Enchantments: 16
Artifacts: 9
Sorceries: 7
Instants: 9
Planeswalkers: 3
Lands : 36
Avg casting cost: 3.37
Link to deckstats:
Understanding the deck
A brief look at the commander
Marath is a versatile general that has numerous abilities, like a swiss army knife. Apart from the damage ability, it can go either of the 2 routes; the +1/+1 counter route or/and the token generating route. For the +1/+1 route, stuff that interact with is are abilities like devour, persist, evolve, graft. All these are abilities which doesn't really focus much on the token aspect. Since I am trying to make a token themed deck, the +1/+1 route and the ping ability will have to take a backseat. I would also want the deck to be distinct from my Vorel deck which focus solely just on the +1/+1 counters.
Let us take a look at the primary ability we will focus on for this deck, token generating capabilities. Marath is able to create a green X/X elemental token based on the number of +1/+1 counters we remove from it. This is an extremely good ability to have as sometimes we want a big fatty token to populate, while other times we would like to have a swarm of weenie tokens that we can take advantage of. The way that Marath "replenishes its materials (+1/+1 counters)" is by going back to the command zone and get cast back into action again with commander tax. The more tax we pay the more "materials" we get to use. This is pretty interesting as we can often make it go back by using up all its +1/+1 counters without needing a sac engine. Do take note that its ability is only available when cast, we can't really blink, reanimate it from the graveyard or tutor it out from the library right into the battlefield.
From the primary ability we can already establish the theme of the deck, in this deck we will focus on the following:
General Strategies of the deck
When to play Marath
This deck can be played in a few ways, as there are numerous methods to win. Unlike dedicated combo decks which aims to get their combos out fast we can afford to take some time by going aggro and semi control first. There is where our commander comes into play, don't be afraid to invest in him during the early turns when you have nothing else to cast. He can ping away all the mana dorks that are in play to slow down opponents, or create 1/1 tokens so you can skullclamp for more card advantage. Lastly he can replace itself with an X/X elemental token by using all his counters if you need to populate.
There is always something you can do with Marath, so just cast him if you can do it. There isn't a need to wait till you get the combo pieces.
About Ramping
In the ramp package you will notice the trio of cards:
Why add in a land recursion package + ability to play multiple lands a turn? One of the main reasons is the deck runs fetchlands and Rings of Brighthearth, with these it is actually better to run a land recursion package than just straight mana dorks/rocks/land ramp spells. The second reason is the deck features a couple of landfall token generators/enchancers, Rampaging Baloths & Avenger of Zendikar. Rampaging Baloths also combos well with Perilous Forays to bring in more lands. The third reason is recurring Grove of the Guardian, a very powerful token generator (what more can you ask of a 8/8 vigilance token).
Noteworthy Combos & Token Synergies
Marath is a general choked full of combos. In my opinion Marath ranks higher than Ghave in the threat department, but due to the limited number of tutors and sheer variety of combo card types, it is not as consistant as Ghave. The combos are categorised with Commander specific combos first followed by the other combos found in the deck.
Commander specific infinite - Mana rock engine FTW
Pre-requisite: Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Marath, Will of the Wild + 2
Effect: Infinite colorless mana, X/X tokens, damage
I guess we all know that the basalt+rings combo, that generates infinite colorless mana. What makes this combination so endearing to Marath is the Rings can be used on Marath's ability. We can start off by using just 1x +1/+1 counter, double it up with Rings of Brighthearth to put back 2 counters on Marath... then we grow it exponentially to get enough ammo to blast our way to the win.
Commander specific infinite - Echoing Crusade/Denizen
Pre-requisite: Marath, Will of the Wild + Mana Echoes + Ivy Lane Denizen + 1
Effect: Infinite colorless mana, 1/1 tokens (infinitely big tokens in the case of Cathars' Crusade)
Using 1 initial mana, create a 1/1 elemental token using Marath's 1x +1/+1 counter. As the 1/1 creature ETB, it triggers Ivy Lane Denizen, which will target Marath and give 1x +1/+1 counter back. The creature that ETB also triggers Mana Echoes, which will give 2+ colorless mana (Marath + counter + any other elementals). With this loop we can generate as much mana and creature tokens as we want. With Cathars' Crusade instead of the denizen, the tokens will be grow stronger per iteration too.
Commander specific infinite - Season of doubling
Pre-requisite: Marath, Will of the Wild + Mana Echoes + Doubling Season + 1
Effect: Infinite colorless mana, X/X tokens, damage
Using 1 initial mana, create a 1/1 elemental token using Marath's 1x +1/+1 counter. 2x 1/1 creatures will ETB due to doubling season's ability, generating 6 colorless with Mana echoes. Use another one of Marath's +1/+1 counter and 1 mana to target itself to add +1/+1 counter, which will yield 2x due to doubling season. Rinse and repeat until we get enough
Token engine infinite - Inflict and Heal
Pre-requisite: Darien, King of Kjeldor + Warstorm Surge + Essence Warden or other lifegain on creature ETB + take 1 initial damage.
Effect: Infinite tokens, (if have an anthem effect, infinite damage)
Darien converts our damage taken into 1/1 creature tokens. When the 1/1 creature ETB and triggers Warstorm surge, target ourself with that 1 damage. The 1/1 creature also nets 1 life on ETB with Essence Warden, negating the 1 damage taken from the surge. The 1 damage will resolve and the cycle repeats itself again, netting infinite creatures.
This engine gets interesting when there is an anthem effect around, like Mirari's Wake or Cathars' Crusade. With the 1 damage taken, Darien will generate a 2/2 now, which will net 1 life and 2 damage to us. 2 damage will creature 2x 2/2 creatures. Here is where the split damage comes in, we only need 1 of the warstorm surge damage trigger hit us and the other one we can target any other creature or player. The 2 damage to us will always net 2x 2/2 creatures + 2 life which will negate the damage. Hence infinite damage established.
Token engine infinite - Recursion from the Grave
Pre-requisite: Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar + Wurmcoil Engine or any other creature that will net 2x tokens on ETB/LTB/Die. In the case of wurmcoil and additional 2 mana is needed.
Effect: Infinite tokens of the type the creature comes with.
Sacrifice Wurmcoil to Ashnod's Altar, yielding 2 mana, and 2 wurm tokens. Use 4 mana (2 + initial 2) to pay for Nim Deathmantle trigger, bringing back Wurmcoil engine. Sacrifice one of the wurm tokens and wurmcoil engine, netting 4 mana. Rinse and repeat.
Persist Infinity - Infinite Life+
With the inclusion of kitchen finks the deck's potential to combo off is increased by a few routes. The combo works in a way that the -1/-1 counter from persist is negated by the +1/+1 counter Kitchen Finks receives on ETB, hence making the ouphe "recursion friendly". There are a few routes to combo off with kitchen finks with various cards in the deck, as listed below:
Kitchen Finks + 1x +1/+1 counter gifter (choose 1: Archangel of Thune/Cathars' Crusade/Ivy Lane Denizen) + 1x sacrifice outlet (choose 1: Goblin Bombardment/Ashnod's Altar/Perilous Forays) = Infinite life + (Choose one of more depending on what you use: Creature growth/Mana/Lands etc)
Kitchen Finks + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle = infinite life + infinite creature ETB (for direct damage triggers or aurashards)
This combo is not really on theme with tokens though, oh well. Placeholder till I find something more in theme.
Token Wincon - Direct damage
These are the combo win-conditions of the deck for tokens, we can fit any of them to any token generator and they will convert the tokens generated into direct damage which doesn't need to rely on the combat phase. Hurray for Naya!
Card Advantage - Draw for 3
A combo from the 2 of the most used artifacts in EDH. Surprisingly, not many players know about this combo. Tap Sensei Divining Top to draw a card, and spend 2 to copy the ability with Rings of Brighthearth. The 1st draw will put Sensei Divining Top back to the top of the library and the 2nd draw will draw the top, cast the top back.
Ramp advantage - Rampant Growth+ all you can for an initial 1 investment
Classic mono green landfall combo, even stronger in a token deck. Spend an initial 1 to sacrifice any creature (or token) you control (but not the baloth) to perilous foray. Search your library for a land card with a basic land type and put into the battlefield tapped. Rampaging Baloths' landfall ability triggered, creating a 4/4 beast token. Tap the beast token to untap the newly searched basic land, tap the land for 1. Rinse and repeat until you run out of lands with basic land type. Earthcraft is can be substituted with Mana Echoes.
to be updated...
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
A section for cards which are not added to the main deck. Some of them are a natural fit into the deck, but are cut due to the limited amount of slots, others may be not "on-theme". Nevertheless, all of them are really powerful cards/strategies. Feel free to add them to the decklist if you find the initial decklist is not to your liking. If you have any cards you will like to share, do give me a post, thanks.
Exploring more on tokens - Token clones
Cards in this category: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Dual Nature, Splinter Twin, Minion Reflector, Echo Chamber
Reason as to why they is not in: no space on main deck.
Why they should be considered:
The pinnacle of token strategy is actually creating token clones of any creature. Usually clones is in the domain of blue, but we do have cards in Red and Green that can mimic the ability to a certain extent. Kiki-Jiki is one such card, so strong that he actually creates a deck archetype by itself in other formats. What makes these cards so good is they double the effectiveness of our main token ETB producers (Armada Wurm and gang) and provide good targets for the populate mechanic.
Exploring more on tokens - Enhancing the combat phase
Cards in this category: Hellrider, Beastmaster Ascension, Druids' Repository, Hero of Bladehold etc
Reason as to why they is not in: no space on main deck.
Why they should be considered:
This is mainly for decks who want to give their combat phase an extra oomph. Do consider giving these a whirl when you want to tone down the "Infinity and beyond" aspect of the deck and concentrate mainly on good old fashion beatdown (with a little twist in our favor lol). One interesting card to take note is Hellrider, the devil makes attacking with a swarm of 0/1 tokens viable. It is always a good laugh on the table when an opponent is downed by un-buffed plant tokens.
Exploring more on tokens - Defense and Control
Cards in this category: Glare of Subdual, Shivan Harvest, Martyr's Bond, Martyr's Cause, etc
Reason as to why they is not in: Preference to go on an offense route than defense
Why they should be considered:
This group of cards are excellent choices if one decides not to go on the offensive with Marath. Shivan Harvest is a really great card to use in a token deck by providing a consistent way to kill off opponents' land resources, augmenting Aura Shards destroying mana rocks. Martyr's Bond + Martyr's Cause forms a pair to thwart off any kind of damage done to us and help clear the board of opponents' creatures. Do bear in mind that stax like strategies like this might not be really welcoming in some playgroups.
The +1/+1 side of Marath
Cards in this category: Workhorse, Spike Weaver and cousins, Kalonian Hydra and fellow comrades, Immaculate magistrate and the elven party + a lot others
Reason as to why they is not in: requires a re-tooling of the entire deck, entire different strategy from tokens
Why they should be considered:
One theme that is not really explored in the current deck is the +1/+1 counter theme. We briefly touched a little on it with cards like Doubling Season, Archangel of Thune and Ivy Lane Denizen. Like tokens, this is really a huge theme and it is really hard for the 2 themes to co-exist without one severely outshadowing the other. If I were to add a couple of choices into the deck, Spike Feeder and Spike Weaver will be the 2 that will be in. Spike Feeder forms a 2 card combo with Archangel of Thune which also gives every other creature (include Marath) and endless supply of +1/+1 counters. Spike Weaver is a more defensive card which can save our lives should we constantly get attacked, or can be used as a political tool.
Persist
Cards in this category: Kitchen Finks, Woodfall Primus, Cauldron of Souls
Reason as to why they is not in: Too 'boring' with T&N + Not on tokens theme + *Personal reason - Persist strategy is covered in my Vorel.dec, like +1/+1 counters*
Why they should be considered:
A strategy I try my best not to include although they provide more utility and give the deck more resiliance. With existing combo pieces like Ivy Lane Denizen, Archangel of Thune, Cathars' Crusade + sacrifice engines like Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, including any of these will increase the deck's potential to combo out by 2 fold. Main reason of not including is I don't really want my Tooth and Nail to tutor out the same 2 cards every game and win.
eg: Woodfall Primus + Ivy Lane Denizen + Goblin Bombardment = Infinite damage + destory all opponents' non-creature permanents
Keen Sense, drawing with damage
Suggested by Volango
Cards in this category: Keen Sense, Zhur-Taa Druid, Hellrider
Reason as to why they is not in: No space in deck. Need to test
Why they should be considered:
Keen sense is really a good card, I got intrigued by it the moment Volango suggested the card. The current deck list only have 2 creatures that benefit from this aura, Marath itself and Purphoros (when devotion to R hits 5+). In my opinion we will need a couple more cards which can benefit from Keen Sense (without relying on dealing combat damage) in the deck so as not to make the aura card a dead-weight when Marath & Purphoros are not available. Zhur-Taa Druid and Hellrider are 2 such cards, which means 3 free slots are needed, more testing to be done.
Dropped strategies
Token Strategy - Conspire!
Reason dropped: Not enough spells that is worth copying, and Wort is only worth casting when I draw her, she is not even within the top 10 targets of creature tutors.
Most of the time our tokens, especially the 1/1s and the 0/1 plants, are sitting around doing nothing as they are unable to attack due to them being too small. Give them some job to do! With Wort around, we can conspire all our red and green instants/sorceries. Double the use of our green tutors and utility spells! One special tech is the card Reiterate, a red instant which allows us to copy any sorcery/instant on the stack. Use it to copy an opponent's spell, especially those pesky blue mages who like to counter here and there.
Update History
1st November - Decklist 0.4
//Token producers section
- Armada Wurm: 1x 5/5 trample token doesn't really cut it. Out to give back the slot to Trostani's Summoner.
- Knight-captain of Eos : Clunky to use. Tokens better used to chump block. Only good in niche situations when damage is inevitable. Switch out to test Assemble the Legion
+ Assemble the Legion: Testing out. 1st impressions are not bad after 6games. Max muster counter reached is 3, not bad for a high threat card that can survive 3 turns.
+ Trostani's Summoner: I am always debating between her and Avenger of Zendikar as both are the same cast cost. Rhino token (+ trample) > Plant token.
//Removal and Control
- Beast Within: Out for the stronger Chaos Warp
+ Chaos Warp: Powerful card which I forgot all about it. Thanks to TreyKapfer for suggesting it.
//Card Advantage & Topdeck fixing
- Cream of the Crop: Okay I admit I am very lazy. This is an extremely powerful card that fixes your top deck, like a mini-scry. It gets better when more creatures with power >=2 ETBs. The problem is when cards like Trostani's Summoner ETB with Cathar's Crusade in play, it is going to take quite a bit of time to resolve all the triggers. I could have squeezed in maybe 1 more short game with the time I used on sifting my top deck, oh well.
//Planeswalkers
+ Xenagos, the Reveler: Mainly used for the +1 'Gaea's Cradle' ability. The 2/2 haste satryr is also not a bad option.
//Lifegain
- Essence Warden: Didn't even notice that she is no in deck. Totally outclassed by Suture Priest.
+ Kitchen Finks: Placeholder card, very powerful that it enables a stew of more combos. Not in theme though, need to think about that.
//Token producers section
- Avenger of Zendikar: Not a fan of plant tokens, always wish that he was something else like Rampaging Baloths or Armada Wurm when I drew him. Out
- Wort, the Raid Mother: Raiding and conspiracy is good but having nothing to conspire is something to look into.
+ Knight-Captain of Eos: More Soldier madness with Elspeth, a token based 'fogger' like Spike Weaver.
+ Requiem Angel: More rattlesnakes. In a meta that is invested heavily in creature sweeps, this card can prove to be an worthy inclusion
//Tutors section
- Tooth and Nail: Good stuff but I always think of cutting this card whenever I draw it/win the game with it. A boring win-con.
//Defense section
- Reiterate: Without Wort this is not really worth running. the RR cost also makes it hard to cast multiple times
//Card Advantage section
+ Abundance: A very powerful fixer especially when we are land screwed or mana flooded. Good in neutering some opponent strategies too
//Planeswalker section
+ Garruk, Primal Hunter: Basically any planeswalker with a +1 ability to generate creature tokens MUST be in this deck. Garruk doubles as a Harmonize when we really need the card advantage.
Max casting cost of cards in deck reduced to 6.
14th October - Slight change to lands, added 2 more combos
12th October - Added extra card, alternate strategies section
11th October - Minor changes to decklist
- Parallel Evolution: A win more card. Most of the time I find it hard to cast
+ Sterling Grove: Excellent protection and tutor for enchantments. What sold me is I can double it if Rings is in play.
- Elspeth Tirel : Slotted out for the 6cc version
+ Elspeth, Sun's Champion : Good abilities overall make this an excellent token planeswalker
8th October - Initial decklist 0.1
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
They work, they just require a mana to jump start them. For instance:
Marath, Will of the Wild + Mana Echoes + Ivy Lane Denizen
Pay 1 to remove a counter from Marath to make a 1/1 token. You get 2 mana from Echoes and Ivy lane puts a counter on Marath. Use that 1 mana to make another 1/1 token, you get 3 colorless this time and put a counter back on Marath. Rinse and repeat for infinite 1/1's and colorless mana.
Works the same way with Cathar's Crusade except the tokens become ridiculously large with their own counters. Add Purphoros/Bombardment/Warstorm Surge for an on the spot win.
Marath, Will of the Wild (say just at 3 counters) + Mana Echoes + Doubling Season
Pay 1 to remove a counter from Marath, Echoes triggers and gives you 4 colorless because you get two tokens due to season. Use 1 of that to activate Marath removing a counter to put a counter on himself, he goes back up to 3 counters. Do it again, he's up to 4, again he's up to 5. Use the last floating mana to make another pair of guys, bringing Marath to 4 counters and you net another 8 colorless. Repeat the growing Marath cycle, make more guys, repeat the grow marath cycle, etc... After he's sufficiently large, you remove a counter for tokens, netting an arbitrarily large amount of mana, then activate Marath to deal damage to a player.
Requires a lot of activations but it works.
edit: The second example is technically wrong because I forgot Marath is an elemental, so you get more mana from each echoes trigger. Not that it changes how it works, just changes how many times the abilities can be activated before restarting the "cycle".
Some recommendations:
Avenger of Zendikar. It will fill the same role as Armada Wurm in the Deathmantle Combo. Admittedly 0/1 Plant tokens aren't as impressive but there's value in redundancy.
Regal Force. I only quickly glanced over your list but it should be good card advantage in a token. I'm not sure how green creatures or green token producer's you're running though.
Spike Weaver. He's just a good green card but he is a really good good green card. He allows you to buy time to set up a combo and your general can reset his counters.
Idyllic Tutor & Sterling Grove. The majority of your combo pieces involve enchantments. Again, there is value in redundancy.
Sun Titan is a little expensive to cast but he can pull most of your combo pieces back from the yard.
Seems like a fun list
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Earthcraft is a must.
I have to admit when I first looked at this guy I did not like him, he seemed like a weak Ghave to me, but thanks to this post I am seeing some other interesting ideas. Thanks for posting!
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Many thanks to Sims for the combo details. Will update my list shortly to reflect on how to use the combos.
@Bthepanda:
Avenger of Zendikar
Yes AoZ is back in, replacing Trostani Summoner. As the list starts from my old Trostani shell, the list isn't tuned to Marath as of yet. Now with the ability to create small and big tokens, AoZ will be a much better choice.
Regal Force
One of the things which made Regal Force so deadly in other token decks like Ghave/Trostani is the ability to reuse the ETB. As the decklist doesn't have much recursion or blink, Fecundity is a much better choice.
Spike Weaver
An excellant choice. What is keeping me from using it is that I am too abusing it in Vorel. Want to keep my decks unique. Sometimes I just hate it when I need to face tough choices like this.
Idyllic Tutor & Sterling Grove
These 2 cards are suited more in an enchantress build imo. Strangely though, my current enchantress list is also running tokens, but is not as extensive as Marath.
@Vash9177:
Sun Titan
The current decklist has quite a bit of 6cc creatures, and most of them are token generators. As for combo wise, Sun Titan can only bring back Nim Deathmantle and Goblin Bombardment.
@Trancer99:
Yes me too when I first saw Marath I was like "wow, a mini-ghave". And yes I come to realise that Earthcraft is really good for the deck.... Noooo why it has to clash with my enchantress.dec. I should just play Earthcraft in both decks.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Tooth and Nail ---> Purphoros, God of the Forge + Avenger of Zendikar
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Oh gawd, how can I forget about T&N. T&N here in this case will be perfect as we don't have any 2 creature card win-con yet.
Increasing savagery's purpose is to replenish the +1/+1 counters on Marath? Is there anything I missed out from the card?
Post is updated with details on the main combos the deck uses. The cards with (???) are cards which I find slightly lacking or I just never play them enough. A question, between Fecundity and Well of Lost Dreams, which one is a better fit in this deck?
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Also, have you given any consideration to Academy Rector? With the sac potential of this deck along with the seemingly high importance of Mana Echoes, this dude gets an enchantment out around counters.
Sterling Grove also seems good here too. It's cheap, protects enchants, and if were to be destroyed it just tutors out another combo piece instead. Very versitile. I also see you like your deck filtering enchants. Mirri's Guile might be worth considering also since it comes down early and won't compete with things you'll want to play on your later turns.
Overall though, I really like the list. Oh and maybe make a "By Card Type" decklist next to the "By Function" one? It seems you're going kinda Primer-y with this post and that may help.
EDIT: I just saw that Sterling Grove was already suggested. You said it seems like too much of an "Enchantress" build type of card. Look at it this way. Your opponents HAVE to remove it before removing other enchantments, namely combo pieces. If you're going all out Wombo-Combo, then anything that takes a hit instead of combo pieces is good. That's why Spellskite was such an annoying damn card. The added benefit of the Grove though is that when it is time for it to die, it doesn't just die. It fetches something to replace itself while an opponent is now down a card.
EDIT 2: See I'm thinking about this just as much as you are. MARATH WILL SUCCEED!! Haha. I was just looking over the list again and saw that you had (???) next to Elspeth Tirel. May I suggest Elspeth, Sun's Champion instead. You don't seem to have too many 4+ power dudes in here and most of the combo ones are 3 or less. She also +1's into tokens instead of minusing. You also probably won't be getting much use out of Tirel's ult because if your board ever gets wiped it's usually by your opponent's doing not your own. Elspeth, Sun's Champion's ult also seems better in case you didn't assemble the insta-win but have a critical mass of tokens on board. 2/3 Flying Plant tokens for the win.
Thanks for pointing out a combo that I missed out. There are so much synergies in between the cards in this deck. I'll sort them out and list them in my next update.
eg.
Wincon enabler - Draw your whole deck with infinite mana
Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Sensei's Divining Top
Yep both Sterling Grove and Academy Rector are really suitable additions to the deck, Marath is the sole reason why I created the thread "Unique wincons for multiple decks" to gather feedback as to help me "see" better. There are just so many cards I want to fit into the deck, 62 cards is too little.
I really like Sterling Grove, what card should I take out to replace? Somehow I get this feeling that there will be other cards spoilt in Commander2013 that will be beneficial to us Marath players, and it will be time again to make painful cuts.
I like the replacement Elspeth, Sun Champion, and the explanation over her abilities in accordance to the deck. Just need to get a copy to test her out. Her -2 ability is really good for us. A repeatable board wipe is always welcomed.
One other card I am seriously considering is Kitchen Finks, just this one card alone makes the deck more combo-li-cious.... but but I am already using persist strategy in Vorel (although finks is not used there at all).
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Basilisk Collar lets you machine gun opposing creatures while gaining life.
Illusionist's Bracers not only doubles the fun when creating tokens and shooting damage, it also lets you charge up marath if he need counters. This might be the one deck where the bracers are better than Rings of Brightenearth.
That being said awesome "primer" you have started here. I got quite some ideas for the Marath list I'm brewing!
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
Thank you Volango for liking the list.
I like both Basilisk Collar and Illusionist Bracers, they complement Marath's ability very well. It would have been a lot better if I have other creatures that can make use of the 2 equipment too. Currently my list only have 1-2 creatures who benefit from the equipment hence I didn't add them in.
Rings of Brighthearth on the other hand, works in the deck as it affects lands, artifacts and enchantments for the price of 2 per activation.
Decklist updated to contain fetches (off-color though, wish I had the onslaught fetches), thread updated with 2 more combos.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Also since Marath is a Beast, shouldn't Contested Cliffs be in this list, especially since it doesn't take up much deckspace...
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
Wow I really like Keen Sense, perfect card for Marath. The 2 other cards that likes having Keen Sense around are Hellrider (perfect for attacking with tokens) and Zhur-Taa Druid (mana dork)
What card do you think I should drop for Keen Sense + the other 2 if possible? Need to really find space for them
Yeah I can replace Thespian's Stage with Contested Cliffs, need to get my hands on the card.
Many thanks for the suggestions.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Dark Depths combos with that, so you'll get the 20/20 indestructible flying token immediately.
And another card recommendation is Craterhoof Behemoth.
I cannot stress enough the fact that this will win you many games on the spot. Its freaking incredible. Especially in a deck where the general can create as many tokens as this guy can.
UWBSharuum the HegemonBWU
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryGU
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU
Thanks shadowboy for the recommendations.
Dark Depths is a cool card. I didn't include it in as Thespian Stage is the only card that actually interacts with the land. There is no other way to cheat the 20/20 non-populate~able token into play besides the stage and paying mana to remove the counters. Another shortcoming is we are lacking in specific land tutors. Knight of the Reliquary and Crop Rotation comes into mind, but I forsee that they will be used to tutor much better lands like Gaea's Cradle or Grove of the Guardian if they are included before Dark Depths.
Craterhoof Behemoth was actually 1st in my list when I thought of building a tokens.dec. Sadly I am already running the godly beast as a wincon in my Animar.dec if not I would have place it in in a heartbeat.
But it doesn't mean it is not a good card for Marath, I strongly recommend it if you don't have "self-imposed unique wincon constrains" like me. Thanks for the recommendation.
Edit1:
WotC just revealed this -Primal Vigor
Do we need a 3rd doubler when we already have Parallel Lives and the original Doubling Season?
Small note, it affects everyone else across the board. Not a very good symmetrical ability to have.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I will probably run Primal Vigor once my list stands. I'm only a little annoyed that it has a cmc of 5, which not only makes it strictly worse than Doubling Season but also adds to the already cluttered 5cmc enchantment slot.
Still I think besides Ghave there's no deck which benefits form this card as much as we do and making it global means there's probably much less hate coming along your way.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
For Primal Vigor, besides the 5cc cost, what I am concerned about is the number of clone effects opponents run. In a typical game of 4 players in my playgroup, usually 2-3 of the players (i.e all my opponents) will run at least 3+ clones (Phantasmal Image, Sakashima the Imposter, Phyrexian Metamorph, Dance of Many, Rites of Replication).
Having opponents cloning our token producers like Avenger of Zendikar or Wurmcoil Engine will usually lead to us be in a disadvantaged position, especially when we spent quite a bit of resources on casting the creature + Primal Vigor.
Speaking of clones, I have a rules question:
If an opponent casts Phyrexian Metamorph, choosing it to come in as Marath. Will it get 4x +1/+1 counters or 0x ?
My thinking is technically he casts metamorph but it ETBs as 'Marath' hence it is 'not considered' as 'amount of mana spent on Marath clone'. Is this correct?
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Unexpectedly Absent
A very powerful tuck card. I wonder should I play this rather than other removals, will see how it goes.
Tempt with Vengence
This is a very very interesting card to have. Might have some synergies with cards like Vicious Shadows + Starstorm when opponents take the bait.
Primal Vigor
Sacrifice a card slot for more doubling redundancy?
Tempt with Discovery
This is an excellent ramp card to have.
Restore
Another powerful land recursion card which allow us to use other player's fetches.
Opal Palace
A land for commander only, good for Marath but I am not sure whether it is worth the slot.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
//Token producers section
- Avenger of Zendikar: Not a fan of plant tokens, always wish that he was something else like Rampaging Baloths or Armada Wurm when I drew him. Out
- Wort, the Raid Mother: Raiding and conspiracy is good but having nothing to conspire is something to look into.
+ Knight-Captain of Eos: More Soldier madness with Elspeth, a token based 'fogger' like Spike Weaver.
+ Requiem Angel: More rattlesnakes. In a meta that is invested heavily in creature sweeps, this card can prove to be an worthy inclusion
//Tutors section
- Tooth and Nail: Good stuff but I always think of cutting this card whenever I draw it/win the game with it. A boring win-con.
//Defense section
- Reiterate: Without Wort this is not really worth running. the rr cost also makes it hard to cast multiple times
//Card Advantage section
+ Abundance: A very powerful fixer especially when we are land screwed or mana flooded. Good in neutering some opponent strategies too
//Planeswalker section
+ Garruk, Primal Hunter: Basically any planeswalker with a +1 ability that generates creature tokens is a MUST in this deck. Garruk also doubles as a Harmonize when we really need the card advantage in a pinch.
A little tech about Abundance, besides giving us filtering in draws and comboing with Sylvan Library, it also changes the way on how some opponents combos work:
Example 1: Sharuum's infinite mana+ Stroke of Genius/Blue Sun Zenith
Results: Never get decked
Example 2: Opponent's Consecrated Sphinx on board
Results: Never let opponent draw off the sphinx
Example 3: Nekusar player on board, never get damaged by Spiteful Visions, Underworld Dreams, Phyrexian Tyranny.
This is something really worth looking into if you are playing green.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I want to take a more controlish approach with lot's of card-draw, spot removal and board wipes and use Marath as an engine to shoot down threats and produce tokens mainly to chump block and support stuff like Aura Shards, Regal Force and Eldrazi Monument.
I pack a lot of ramp plus mana doublers to have enough mana to keep the engine going as well as a potent recursion package in Eternal Witness, Karmic Guide, Reveillark and Sun Titan.
There's also an equipment suite containing Basilisk Collar, Illissionist's Bracers and Sunforger and multiple tutors for them along some ways to protect my creatures like Ascetiscism, Sigarda or Boros Charm
Ideally I want to always have some way to deal with any threat my opponents come up with (possibly at instant speed).
So here are my questions since you obviously already have some experience with this commander:
Do you think a Marath deck can work in the way I described above?
How important are the non-Marath token producers in here exactly?
As how big of a threat is he perceived when he hits the board?
Have you ever considered Rosheen Meanderer?
Is having the mana to recast him ever an issue?
Is there a point where it just isn't profitable anymore to cast him due to mana issues?
How important is it to have mana open to activate his abilities after you cast him?
Phew, I know that's a lot of text and a LOT of questions. I really hope you have the patience and the knowledge to answer them. I would be really glad about any input
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
*edit* Also I would strongly consider Assemble the Legion. It is a card that can win the game all by its lonesome. Not something a lot of other cards can say. It also gets bonus points for being absolutely obnoxious with Doubling Season.
GWBKarador, Necrotic Ooze SubthemeBWG
I'll try my best to answer the questions. :3
Do you think a Marath deck can work in the way I described above?
Recursion
Yes, it is definitely feasible. Recursion is one of the best strategies that will make the deck a whole lot more resilient. In the nutshell, here is the base package that I will consider for Marath if I am playing the recursion package
1x Sun Titan
1x Karmic Guide
1x Reveillark
1x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Angelic Renewal
1x Survival of the Fittest
//Token Producer
1x Caller of the Claw
1x Voice of Resurgence
Caller of the claw works wonders here as the tokens produced increase with each loop. eg. Karmic'Lark loop will be 3x tokens -> 6x tokens -> 9x tokens so on and forth. I strongly recommend to run this package. Reason to why I don't run this in my decklist is due to me having the same recursion package in Aurelia, old Ghave and Karador + the upcoming Tr'oloro.dec.
On the equipment:
Essentially if we are running recursion in a Naya control shell, cards like Basilisk Collar aren't really neccessary. There are 2 main factors of choosing not running the collar even when it works with Marath.
1) The only tutors are available in W only. The equipment tutors and precious enlightened tutor are usually used for better combo/control pieces like Skullclamp, Mana Echoes, Rings of Brighthearth etc.
2) In most times Marath will not be available to equip the collar and camp there like a goblin sharpshooter. Opponents know how deadly Marath is after 1-2 games and it will not live long.
Sunforger is a good card to run in any deck that has boros colors, my only gripe to it is the amount of slots it needs to have in a deck.
Protection
Ascetiscism doesn't really work as much as I like it to. Tried it out in a few different decks and it has always failed to protect my creatures (sad thing isn't it?). Ascetiscism is suppose to work in 2 ways, provide hexproof to creatures + give them a regeneration shield as and when needed. When opponents cannot target your creature via single target removal they will attempt to sweep. The most common sweeps around in EDH are stuff like Wrath of God, Damnation, Black Sun's Zenith, which renders regen useless.
For protection wise, Martyr's Bond and Martyr's Cause are really good cards to consider. The bond also serves as a control piece and the cause helps to prevent tuck/exile effects is need be.
How important are the non-Marath token producers in here exactly?
So far my token generator list, Rampaging Baloths and Wurmcoil Engine are the more important ones. You can do without them in a non-token theme deck. I place them in as I want the deck to be more tokeny and in theme. The most important interaction with the tokens here is the interaction with Mana Echoes, tokens of similar creature type will often yet quite a bit of mana when the echoes is around.
As how big of a threat is he perceived when he hits the board?
Big, a must kill target, said by my friends. The very first initial threat that Marath gives is the ability to ping creatures, players and planeswalkers. at 3x +1/+1 counters at first cast, it is very powerful against low toughness generals like Captain Sisay, Rafiq of the Many, Kaalia of the Vast. Next, with mana back up Marath will always certainly leave a legacy of elemental(s) when it dies.
Have you ever considered Rosheen Meanderer?
Not at all. The ability only works with Marath and a very small selected number of cards in my build. Rosheen doesn't have any vigilance which makes her very hard to utilize her 4/4 body while keeping the activated ability for use in emergency situations.
Is having the mana to recast him ever an issue?
Not really, so far I have no issues in recasting Marath up to 9 mana currently (which is around 4 times). Mana echoes really works wonders here if it sticks. The problem I always face now is the amount of colored mana I have to recast Marath a few times in a single turn for the win. Perhaps I will need a fixer/battery, like Gemstone Array to help out.
Is there a point where it just isn't profitable anymore to cast him due to mana issues?
Yes, personally I think it will not be worth it to cast Marath from the command zone after the 5th recast. On the 6th cast you will need 15 mana just to cast and enough remaining mana to actually make it worthwhile when it is out on the battlefield.
How important is it to have mana open to activate his abilities after you cast him?
I would say leave some mana open (around 1/2 of the number of +1/+1 counters on Marath) will be good. Without mana Marath is just a vanilla 'hydra' with no other abilities.
@Orgmarr:
Many thanks for your recommendations.
I tested out Keen Sense and I didn't like it. Mainly is due to the limited recursion I run to take keen sense back to my hand. Placing it on Marath is the best choice for the aura but most of the time I will like Marath to die after expending all its counters. Auras and Marath doesn't gel sadly.
Assemble the Legion is deadly with Doubling Season. This is a card which is in my 'wanted-in-but-no-space' list, alongside with Awakening Zone.
Now I have another headache, I forgot to place in Aurelia's Fury, need to find a card to cut...
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
In my mind Sunforger doesn't take up too many slots because most of those spells I'd run anyway.
Is Aurelia's Fury really that great? It seems solid but not so great that you just have to play it...
EDIT: and I had misread Mana Echoes, I thought you only get 1 for each creature that ETB, the way it actually is, is just amazing!
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer