Well, with Mana Echoes on board, the amount of mana we get is stupidity absurd. It is just that amazing. It is the top most valuable card in the deck.
Eg. 1 with Echoes
If our have like AoZ + 7 plant tokens on board... an opponent decides to clone our AoZ to get some defense...
1) Clone AoZ ETB, (assume he also have 7 lands), gets 7x plant tokens
2) With Mana Echoes, we get 1 colorless mana for elemental (AoZ) + 49 colorless mana for plant (7 x 7)
What can we do with 50 colorless mana on an opponent's turn. Store it in a battery (Gemstone Array) or Aurelia's Fury for some 50 damage.
Eg. 2 with Echoes
Elspeth, Sun's Champion's +1 ability becomes a 9 mana ramp. Cast her for 4WW to get 9.
I like Aurelia's Fury as it is a win enabler (for the multiple silence), a win-con (when achieve infinite mana), a delay tactic (prevent opponent from combo~ing or attacking for 1 turn) or a creature killer.
The only 2 creatures that actually benefit from that are Birds of Paradise and Budoka Gardener, not really good to push for more haste enablers. The mana base is also tweaked to take as little mana dorks as possible so we don't need that many haste enablers. Ogre Battledriver is chosen due to the fact he can push for that extra 2 damage per token dropped when combined with Warstorm Surge apart from the normal 'haste' he gives.
However more haste enablers can be used when you run cards like Hellrider and Shared Animosity in Marath. Cards that generally take advantage the combat phase will welcome haste enablers more.
Gavony Township I really like it, but I am bordering on the limit of non-colored lands I can run so as not to draw too many non-color sources, Marath is very colored-mana hungry.
Yeah I'm trying to push the combat phase a little in my first iteration of the deck. I suppose In The Web of War would be second best haste enabler due the synergy with Warstorm Surge?
Amongst these 3, Urabrask would be my top choice. One of the good things which Naya has plenty of is the number of creature tutors. Having a haste enabler tutorable is a top choice. Our enchantment tutors are better served targeting at our own key enchantments like Warstorm Surge, Doubling Season & Mana Echoes.
Sarkan Vol also gets a thumbs up with his "Anthem-haste" +1 ability. His ultimate is also good to have as we have many token doublers too.
Has anyone else considered Chorus of the Conclave? Paying the additional mana would trigger into Marath's ETB effect, but I'm not certain if it's worth it.
Has anyone else considered Chorus of the Conclave? Paying the additional mana would trigger into Marath's ETB effect, but I'm not certain if it's worth it.
8 mana is quite alot. I would probably rather just recast Marath.
Deck seems almost too synergy based. A removal based deck could pick it apart if they knew what they were doing. Some of the synergies seem out of place in here and forced. I think Perilous Forays could easily be replaced with Sylvan Primordial. You keep landfall synergy but you no longer need a board presence to play the card. Not sure if theres Mass LD in your meta but emptying your deck of basics is sometimes a very bad idea. Plus I'd rather just keep my 4/4 half the time. I bait people into doing it all the time with Pheldagriff.
The Nim Deathmantle combo doesn't seem very well placed in this deck. You have lots of requirements. You need the mantle, the altar, a creature to recur, and access to your graveyard. That's four different ways to pick apart the combo. I think either another combo piece that's less vulnerable, or another token producer would be better suited in its place. It just seems reallllly clunky.
Xenagos, the Reveler is a must have. +1 Gaea's Cradle (with option of red mana too) is nuts. That and he makes tokens with haste for 0. Can't beat that.
Has anyone else considered Chorus of the Conclave? Paying the additional mana would trigger into Marath's ETB effect, but I'm not certain if it's worth it.
None of that sounds profitable. If I go in one card to make my general bigger and they kill my stuff, that's card disadvantage. If I just keep growing Marath, then I'm drawing cards while they struggle to deal with a bunch of x/x's and my general.
By the way neorkin, have you tested Assemble the Legion? I really want to test it in my deck, maybe swap out mycoloth, and I think it would be good in yours too, as you said your meta had lots of wrath effects. It would be a steady way to churn out dudes and creep up on your opponents. And if you want a 5 drop enchantment that is better than Perilous Forays I'd say Assemble the Legion is it.
Deck seems almost too synergy based. A removal based deck could pick it apart if they knew what they were doing. Some of the synergies seem out of place in here and forced. I think Perilous Forays could easily be replaced with Sylvan Primordial. You keep landfall synergy but you no longer need a board presence to play the card. Not sure if theres Mass LD in your meta but emptying your deck of basics is sometimes a very bad idea. Plus I'd rather just keep my 4/4 half the time. I bait people into doing it all the time with Pheldagriff.
The Nim Deathmantle combo doesn't seem very well placed in this deck. You have lots of requirements. You need the mantle, the altar, a creature to recur, and access to your graveyard. That's four different ways to pick apart the combo. I think either another combo piece that's less vulnerable, or another token producer would be better suited in its place. It just seems reallllly clunky.
Xenagos, the Reveler is a must have. +1 Gaea's Cradle (with option of red mana too) is nuts. That and he makes tokens with haste for 0. Can't beat that.
By the way neorkin, have you tested Assemble the Legion? I really want to test it in my deck, maybe swap out mycoloth, and I think it would be good in yours too, as you said your meta had lots of wrath effects. It would be a steady way to churn out dudes and creep up on your opponents. And if you want a 5 drop enchantment that is better than Perilous Forays I'd say Assemble the Legion is it.
Perilous Forays actually holds a much higher weight in the deck than just the Rampaging Baloths combo I posted. Let me talk about on why I chose Perilous Forays over so many other land ramp/fall options (eg. Sylvan Primordial). If you look at the deck list by function, Perilous Forays is listed under "Sacrifice Stuff" rather than ramp. That is the main purpose of including it in, as an enchantment avenue of sacrificing creatures.
It forms a synergy with Marath itself
Basically even without the rampaging baloths counterpart, Marath + Perilous Forays is equivalent to a Fertlid+ (for added search of basic land types). 1 for Marath to create a 1/1 elemental + 1 for Perilous Forays to
dig for a land.
Sacrifice channel which shuffles the deck
Sensei top/Sylvan Libary followers will love cards that enable them to shuffle their library, and this comes with an added bonus of being a sacrifice channel for creatures (to prevent tucking/exiling/cloning/controlling) + ability to tutor for lands. In my meta MLD is quite common, but it doesn't really stop me from "failing to search" whenever I use this.
Reusable mana ramp
Due to the lack of blink/clone effects in this deck for creature based 'reusable' ramp, this is one of the best renewable ramp we have.
As for Sylvan Primordial...
I always have a love-hate relationship with Sylvan Primordial. This card is seen all too many times in any deck that runs G, it is that good. So good that 99% of the time it is a partner of Natural Order (the only 1% is when the primordial is not in the library). Why is such a highly praised card not in the deck?
It isn't on theme. Landfall was never the theme of the deck. It just so happens that Rampaging baloths + Perilous Forays makes use of landfall
Over-abused. I run it in my Animar and Karador. This card is always the target every single time when everyone wants to pull a fast win, like our meta's Jenera player who did a T2 Natural Order -> Sylvan Primordial, followed by T3 restoration angel blink + clone magic. Every single Natural Order target will be this primordial 99% of the time (besides some cases where Humility or Torpor Orb is in play).
Gives blue decks more power as they can easily destroy non-creature permanents now, which is something I don't want. I want my Mana echoes stick onto the board longer.
Natural Order will be a tutor finally and not "Sylvan Primordial" no.2.
Nim Deathmantle is an excellent piece of equipment by itself. It gives us creature recursion at the cost of 4 per activation, something which this deck really needs. There are games where I get extreme value out of Eternal Witness + Nim Deathmantle alone with just a [card]High Market[card] as a sacrifice engine. One shortcoming of my post is that I never address on the cards why they are in the deck, will work to achieve that in the future.
Yes Chaos Warp is much better than beast within, can't believe that I forgot about that, will change it for my game session tomorrow, thanks for the suggestion. As for mana reflection I will need to find space for it... the deck is too tight zzz.
Currently I don't own a copy of Xenagos, will love to have it in.
Nope I haven't tested Assemble the Legion yet, will do some switch and test it tomorrow during the game session.
Has anyone else considered Chorus of the Conclave? Paying the additional mana would trigger into Marath's ETB effect, but I'm not certain if it's worth it.
Thanks to DJ_Rad for the suggestions. I concur with psilocybianth and TreyKapfer opinions. Chorus of the Conclave is too costly to be actually worth it. She/They cost 8 mana just to bring out + must survive long enough to cast another creature + add in more mana to actually reap benefit from her/them.
Juniper Order Ranger is much better in Ghave, Guru of Spores deck than Marath as the ranger only benefits himself and the token/creature that ETBs. Mercy Killing is a very very hard card to use, don't think it will be worth the slot in the deck as it doesn't synergise with the rest of the cards.
Natural Order doesn't seem to be a Sylvan Primordial number two in my deck. If it comes up early game, tutor up the dude yeah, but late game he hardly seems like the best tutor target. Especially if you run Craterhoof Behemoth, which i think ideally you would but I know you said yours are in your other decks.
As far as your arguments against it, you can almost turn them into arguments for running the card. If you run cards that the blue players are like "damn that would be an awesome bribery/clone target" then you probably have one BA deck.
Not to mention, if you natural order in sylvan primordial, or play it, or whatever, couldn't you just hold back on the mana echoes and make sure both aren't out at the same time if you were that worried about clone effects? Also don't forget you get to blow up the blue players lands too...
Your deck certainly wouldn't be doing anything degenerate with the card. There would be the 1% chance you could turn 2 the guy but stuff like that happens in edh.
I'm just saying you get way more value out of the card and its much more reliable. You get so much value out of it, that other players want to clone the card. Plus you have the removal factor.
Assemble the Legion is nuts. Tested it. Totally forgot the tokens have haste.... damn thats good.
If you are getting as much value as you say you are off the deathmantle then keep it. I wouldn't run it, but Its probably a meta call.
Yep I agree that Sylvan Primordial is really strong. I've been running it in some of my other decks. My only main problem is I don't really wish all my decks to feel the same, where every deck which runs green runs the tutor+craterhoof/woodfall/sylvan primordial cards. A refreshing change will be nice. Moreover that primordial is the most commonly seen primordial in my meta, every other Bant deck runs it to the max and blink it for awesomeness.
Played more games with Marath and made more changes to the decklist. Still am testing out Assemble the Legion. Fabulous card but very high threat, opponents are clamouring on removing it every time it hits the battlefield. The only saving grace is there are more deadly permanents on the field + 2x Sharuum combo players playing. Everyone was keeping their removal for the 2 sphinx players.
Decklist updates:
//Token producers section
- Armada Wurm: 1x 5/5 trample token doesn't really cut it. Out to give back the slot to Trostani's Summoner.
- Knight-captain of Eos : Clunky to use. Tokens better used to chump block. Only good in niche situations when damage is inevitable. Switch out to test Assemble the Legion
+ Assemble the Legion: Testing out. 1st impressions are not bad after 6games. Max muster counter reached is 3, not bad for a high threat card that can survive 3 turns.
+ Trostani's Summoner: I am always debating between her and Avenger of Zendikar as both are the same cast cost. Rhino token (+ trample) > Plant token.
//Removal and Control
- Beast Within: Out for the stronger Chaos Warp
+ Chaos Warp: Powerful card which I forgot all about it. Thanks to TreyKapfer for suggesting it.
//Card Advantage & Topdeck fixing
- Cream of the Crop: Okay I admit I am very lazy. This is an extremely powerful card that fixes your top deck, like a mini-scry. It gets better when more creatures with power >=2 ETBs. The problem is when cards like Trostani's Summoner ETB with Cathar's Crusade in play, it is going to take quite a bit of time to resolve all the triggers. I could have squeezed in maybe 1 more short game with the time I used on sifting my top deck, oh well.
//Planeswalkers
+ Xenagos, the Reveler: Mainly used for the +1 'Gaea's Cradle' ability. The 2/2 haste satryr is also not a bad option.
//Lifegain
- Essence Warden: Didn't even notice that she is no in deck. Totally outclassed by Suture Priest.
+ Kitchen Finks: Placeholder card, very powerful that it enables a stew of more combos. Not in theme though, need to think about that.
Love the deck, great job on construction (and the primer too). Tons of cool card interactions and synergy.
My group prohibits infinite combos, but I've been working on tooling the deck to get around that. Mana Echoes, Basalt Monolith, and Earthcraft were the big offenders that had to take a hike, but the deck is still a blast to play.
Love the deck, great job on construction (and the primer too). Tons of cool card interactions and synergy.
My group prohibits infinite combos, but I've been working on tooling the deck to get around that. Mana Echoes, Basalt Monolith, and Earthcraft were the big offenders that had to take a hike, but the deck is still a blast to play.
I've found its really hard to play Marath and not accidentally have an infinite combo wind up on my board state while he is out... It's just like... "ohh... apparently... Ashnods Altar + Doubling Season + Marath... Crap I tried not to have combos!" Its difficult! Good luck to you.
By the way. I don't think you have that in your info. Altar + Doubling Season + Marath + 1 = Infinite Colorless Mana/Infinite 1/1s/Infinite +1/+1 Counters (Remove 1 counter, make two tokens, sac the two tokens for 4 mana. dump the mana to put counters back on marath and leave 1 floating. hes now bigger. rinse. repeat.)
I've found its really hard to play Marath and not accidentally have an infinite combo wind up on my board state while he is out... It's just like... "ohh... apparently... Ashnods Altar + Doubling Season + Marath... Crap I tried not to have combos!" Its difficult! Good luck to you.
By the way. I don't think you have that in your info. Altar + Doubling Season + Marath + 1 = Infinite Colorless Mana/Infinite 1/1s/Infinite +1/+1 Counters (Remove 1 counter, make two tokens, sac the two tokens for 4 mana. dump the mana to put counters back on marath and leave 1 floating. hes now bigger. rinse. repeat.)
Thanks TreyKapfer for the combo. A lot of times I didn't even realise I have the game winning combo on the board until an opponent pointed out to me.
Pulled off a Darien + Warstorm Surge + Ogre battledriver combo yesterday. I cast suture priest out and suddenly my friend scoop. I ask why until he pointed out that the battledriver makes the infinite tokens becomes infinite damage. Everyone else including me seems to forget about that card's existance that game
@Silex:
Thanks for the compliments. Yes it is extremely hard not to combo off when playing a Marath.dec.
I was playing my Marath deck which is very similar to this one in a tournament this weekend, and noticed something about Marath's ability which is overlooked and completely broken. Her x ability doesnt say it can't be 0. Thus if you have Ivy Lane Denizen out...activate Marath for 0 infinite times to put infinite 0/0s in and put infinite +1/+1 counters on marath. Or, any anthem affect nets infinite tokens. Pretty broken I think, but it makes it easy to combo off.
I've found its really hard to play Marath and not accidentally have an infinite combo wind up on my board state while he is out... It's just like... "ohh... apparently... Ashnods Altar + Doubling Season + Marath... Crap I tried not to have combos!" Its difficult! Good luck to you.
Heh, I hear that. I think the key is killing the 'free' mana producers. It of course slows down the deck, but with no one else at the table playing infinite combos either, it's not the end of the world. I've loaded up on value, just for the sake of fun/durdling. Here's what I'm currently running, in case anyone is curious... (Hopefully no infinites)
Hello!.
This deck is very well explained. I find this very interesting deck. I wonder if this deck wins and it is easy to block ?
Tanks
Does it win? Yes.
Is it easy to block? I guess depends on your exact build. Nekorin's list in the OP is pretty resilient to most Commander strategies. If I had to guess, it's biggest weakness is going up against other combo, especially faster combo and/or combo that has access to blue. You're mostly just racing those types of decks and trying to make sure a key combo piece doesn't get countered.
I think the biggest weakness I've seen of other Marath decks on the forums is that they over-rely on Marath to get the combos/engines going without backup tutor power, making the decks very vulnerable to tuck spells. Nekorin's build is prepared and ready for that with all the creature tutors, though.
thank you!
Sorry ! English is not my maternal language
I am a new player EDH. I got up a deck almost identical to this one. I find it very vulnerable against a control deck. How successful has overcome ?
thank you!
Sorry ! English is not my maternal language
I am a new player EDH. I got up a deck almost identical to this one. I find it very vulnerable against a control deck. How successful has overcome ?
Thanks Fixius for the compliments. Yes this deck has some problems when facing against a full control deck. In my meta control decks aren't really that prevalent hence I didn't put much emphasis into countering control. In Naya we have access one of the best anti-counter tech, Vexing Shusher. Cards like Grand Abolisher, City of Solitude can also help in fighting against countermagic.
Another more proactive approach (not for all playgroups though) towards control players is to control them ourselves, by using resource denial (with both land destruction and mana rock destruction). Cards to change from current deck list should the landee route is fine for the playgroup.
Heh, I hear that. I think the key is killing the 'free' mana producers. It of course slows down the deck, but with no one else at the table playing infinite combos either, it's not the end of the world. I've loaded up on value, just for the sake of fun/durdling. Here's what I'm currently running, in case anyone is curious... (Hopefully no infinites)
Does it win? Yes.
Is it easy to block? I guess depends on your exact build. Nekorin's list in the OP is pretty resilient to most Commander strategies. If I had to guess, it's biggest weakness is going up against other combo, especially faster combo and/or combo that has access to blue. You're mostly just racing those types of decks and trying to make sure a key combo piece doesn't get countered.
I think the biggest weakness I've seen of other Marath decks on the forums is that they over-rely on Marath to get the combos/engines going without backup tutor power, making the decks very vulnerable to tuck spells. Nekorin's build is prepared and ready for that with all the creature tutors, though.
Thanks Silex for the compliments. Yep the key to drop the infinites is to drop the mana producers that generate mana from creature tapping/sacrificing/ETB. With limited mana there is only so much we can perform a turn.
You are right on the weakness of the deck, the main weakness of the deck is that it has very limited options to stop combos from going off. There is nothing in the deck that kills graveyard shegangians. Hopefully in future there is some Night Soil variant that I can use, which has some synergy with tokens. For creature based combos my current defense is to machinegun down that creature with marath and token bombardment, vs enchantment/artifacts aura shards will do the controlling.
Eg. 1 with Echoes
If our have like AoZ + 7 plant tokens on board... an opponent decides to clone our AoZ to get some defense...
1) Clone AoZ ETB, (assume he also have 7 lands), gets 7x plant tokens
2) With Mana Echoes, we get 1 colorless mana for elemental (AoZ) + 49 colorless mana for plant (7 x 7)
What can we do with 50 colorless mana on an opponent's turn. Store it in a battery (Gemstone Array) or Aurelia's Fury for some 50 damage.
Eg. 2 with Echoes
Elspeth, Sun's Champion's +1 ability becomes a 9 mana ramp. Cast her for 4WW to get 9.
I like Aurelia's Fury as it is a win enabler (for the multiple silence), a win-con (when achieve infinite mana), a delay tactic (prevent opponent from combo~ing or attacking for 1 turn) or a creature killer.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
The only 2 creatures that actually benefit from that are Birds of Paradise and Budoka Gardener, not really good to push for more haste enablers. The mana base is also tweaked to take as little mana dorks as possible so we don't need that many haste enablers. Ogre Battledriver is chosen due to the fact he can push for that extra 2 damage per token dropped when combined with Warstorm Surge apart from the normal 'haste' he gives.
However more haste enablers can be used when you run cards like Hellrider and Shared Animosity in Marath. Cards that generally take advantage the combat phase will welcome haste enablers more.
Gavony Township I really like it, but I am bordering on the limit of non-colored lands I can run so as not to draw too many non-color sources, Marath is very colored-mana hungry.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
OP looks really good btw!
Amongst these 3, Urabrask would be my top choice. One of the good things which Naya has plenty of is the number of creature tutors. Having a haste enabler tutorable is a top choice. Our enchantment tutors are better served targeting at our own key enchantments like Warstorm Surge, Doubling Season & Mana Echoes.
Sarkan Vol also gets a thumbs up with his "Anthem-haste" +1 ability. His ultimate is also good to have as we have many token doublers too.
Thanks for the support.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Also, Juniper Order Ranger feels required, alongside Mercy Killing
RKrenko, Mob BossR
WBAthreos, God of Passage~Non-ApostleWB
URWNarset, Enlightened MasterURW
Join me on PucaTrade! https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/51352
8 mana is quite alot. I would probably rather just recast Marath.
Id also play Chaos Warp over Beast Within any day.
The Nim Deathmantle combo doesn't seem very well placed in this deck. You have lots of requirements. You need the mantle, the altar, a creature to recur, and access to your graveyard. That's four different ways to pick apart the combo. I think either another combo piece that's less vulnerable, or another token producer would be better suited in its place. It just seems reallllly clunky.
Grim Monolith/Basalt Monolith + Mana Relfection is a bit sneaky and easy way to get infinite colorless mana. I'd consider that.
Xenagos, the Reveler is a must have. +1 Gaea's Cradle (with option of red mana too) is nuts. That and he makes tokens with haste for 0. Can't beat that.
None of that sounds profitable. If I go in one card to make my general bigger and they kill my stuff, that's card disadvantage. If I just keep growing Marath, then I'm drawing cards while they struggle to deal with a bunch of x/x's and my general.
By the way neorkin, have you tested Assemble the Legion? I really want to test it in my deck, maybe swap out mycoloth, and I think it would be good in yours too, as you said your meta had lots of wrath effects. It would be a steady way to churn out dudes and creep up on your opponents. And if you want a 5 drop enchantment that is better than Perilous Forays I'd say Assemble the Legion is it.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
Perilous Forays actually holds a much higher weight in the deck than just the Rampaging Baloths combo I posted. Let me talk about on why I chose Perilous Forays over so many other land ramp/fall options (eg. Sylvan Primordial). If you look at the deck list by function, Perilous Forays is listed under "Sacrifice Stuff" rather than ramp. That is the main purpose of including it in, as an enchantment avenue of sacrificing creatures.
It forms a synergy with Marath itself
Basically even without the rampaging baloths counterpart, Marath + Perilous Forays is equivalent to a Fertlid+ (for added search of basic land types). 1 for Marath to create a 1/1 elemental + 1 for Perilous Forays to
dig for a land.
Sacrifice channel which shuffles the deck
Sensei top/Sylvan Libary followers will love cards that enable them to shuffle their library, and this comes with an added bonus of being a sacrifice channel for creatures (to prevent tucking/exiling/cloning/controlling) + ability to tutor for lands. In my meta MLD is quite common, but it doesn't really stop me from "failing to search" whenever I use this.
Reusable mana ramp
Due to the lack of blink/clone effects in this deck for creature based 'reusable' ramp, this is one of the best renewable ramp we have.
As for Sylvan Primordial...
I always have a love-hate relationship with Sylvan Primordial. This card is seen all too many times in any deck that runs G, it is that good. So good that 99% of the time it is a partner of Natural Order (the only 1% is when the primordial is not in the library). Why is such a highly praised card not in the deck?
Nim Deathmantle is an excellent piece of equipment by itself. It gives us creature recursion at the cost of 4 per activation, something which this deck really needs. There are games where I get extreme value out of Eternal Witness + Nim Deathmantle alone with just a [card]High Market[card] as a sacrifice engine. One shortcoming of my post is that I never address on the cards why they are in the deck, will work to achieve that in the future.
Yes Chaos Warp is much better than beast within, can't believe that I forgot about that, will change it for my game session tomorrow, thanks for the suggestion. As for mana reflection I will need to find space for it... the deck is too tight zzz.
Currently I don't own a copy of Xenagos, will love to have it in.
Nope I haven't tested Assemble the Legion yet, will do some switch and test it tomorrow during the game session.
Thanks to DJ_Rad for the suggestions. I concur with psilocybianth and TreyKapfer opinions. Chorus of the Conclave is too costly to be actually worth it. She/They cost 8 mana just to bring out + must survive long enough to cast another creature + add in more mana to actually reap benefit from her/them.
Juniper Order Ranger is much better in Ghave, Guru of Spores deck than Marath as the ranger only benefits himself and the token/creature that ETBs. Mercy Killing is a very very hard card to use, don't think it will be worth the slot in the deck as it doesn't synergise with the rest of the cards.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
As far as your arguments against it, you can almost turn them into arguments for running the card. If you run cards that the blue players are like "damn that would be an awesome bribery/clone target" then you probably have one BA deck.
Not to mention, if you natural order in sylvan primordial, or play it, or whatever, couldn't you just hold back on the mana echoes and make sure both aren't out at the same time if you were that worried about clone effects? Also don't forget you get to blow up the blue players lands too...
Your deck certainly wouldn't be doing anything degenerate with the card. There would be the 1% chance you could turn 2 the guy but stuff like that happens in edh.
I'm just saying you get way more value out of the card and its much more reliable. You get so much value out of it, that other players want to clone the card. Plus you have the removal factor.
Assemble the Legion is nuts. Tested it. Totally forgot the tokens have haste.... damn thats good.
If you are getting as much value as you say you are off the deathmantle then keep it. I wouldn't run it, but Its probably a meta call.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
Yep I agree that Sylvan Primordial is really strong. I've been running it in some of my other decks. My only main problem is I don't really wish all my decks to feel the same, where every deck which runs green runs the tutor+craterhoof/woodfall/sylvan primordial cards. A refreshing change will be nice. Moreover that primordial is the most commonly seen primordial in my meta, every other Bant deck runs it to the max and blink it for awesomeness.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Decklist updates:
//Token producers section
- Armada Wurm: 1x 5/5 trample token doesn't really cut it. Out to give back the slot to Trostani's Summoner.
- Knight-captain of Eos : Clunky to use. Tokens better used to chump block. Only good in niche situations when damage is inevitable. Switch out to test Assemble the Legion
+ Assemble the Legion: Testing out. 1st impressions are not bad after 6games. Max muster counter reached is 3, not bad for a high threat card that can survive 3 turns.
+ Trostani's Summoner: I am always debating between her and Avenger of Zendikar as both are the same cast cost. Rhino token (+ trample) > Plant token.
//Removal and Control
- Beast Within: Out for the stronger Chaos Warp
+ Chaos Warp: Powerful card which I forgot all about it. Thanks to TreyKapfer for suggesting it.
//Card Advantage & Topdeck fixing
- Cream of the Crop: Okay I admit I am very lazy. This is an extremely powerful card that fixes your top deck, like a mini-scry. It gets better when more creatures with power >=2 ETBs. The problem is when cards like Trostani's Summoner ETB with Cathar's Crusade in play, it is going to take quite a bit of time to resolve all the triggers. I could have squeezed in maybe 1 more short game with the time I used on sifting my top deck, oh well.
//Planeswalkers
+ Xenagos, the Reveler: Mainly used for the +1 'Gaea's Cradle' ability. The 2/2 haste satryr is also not a bad option.
//Lifegain
- Essence Warden: Didn't even notice that she is no in deck. Totally outclassed by Suture Priest.
+ Kitchen Finks: Placeholder card, very powerful that it enables a stew of more combos. Not in theme though, need to think about that.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I think they would fit the theme but they have to compete with other cards such as Doubling Season orCathars Crusade.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
My group prohibits infinite combos, but I've been working on tooling the deck to get around that. Mana Echoes, Basalt Monolith, and Earthcraft were the big offenders that had to take a hike, but the deck is still a blast to play.
I've found its really hard to play Marath and not accidentally have an infinite combo wind up on my board state while he is out... It's just like... "ohh... apparently... Ashnods Altar + Doubling Season + Marath... Crap I tried not to have combos!" Its difficult! Good luck to you.
By the way. I don't think you have that in your info. Altar + Doubling Season + Marath + 1 = Infinite Colorless Mana/Infinite 1/1s/Infinite +1/+1 Counters (Remove 1 counter, make two tokens, sac the two tokens for 4 mana. dump the mana to put counters back on marath and leave 1 floating. hes now bigger. rinse. repeat.)
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
Thanks TreyKapfer for the combo. A lot of times I didn't even realise I have the game winning combo on the board until an opponent pointed out to me.
Pulled off a Darien + Warstorm Surge + Ogre battledriver combo yesterday. I cast suture priest out and suddenly my friend scoop. I ask why until he pointed out that the battledriver makes the infinite tokens becomes infinite damage. Everyone else including me seems to forget about that card's existance that game
@Silex:
Thanks for the compliments. Yes it is extremely hard not to combo off when playing a Marath.dec.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Yes it does.
To be fair this wasn't noticed before the time of printing. But the errata was made before the card was released. Further info here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1337
This deck is very well explained. I find this very interesting deck. I wonder if this deck wins and it is easy to block ?
Tanks
Heh, I hear that. I think the key is killing the 'free' mana producers. It of course slows down the deck, but with no one else at the table playing infinite combos either, it's not the end of the world. I've loaded up on value, just for the sake of fun/durdling. Here's what I'm currently running, in case anyone is curious... (Hopefully no infinites)
01 Marath, Will of the Wild
Creatures (24)
01 Suture Priest
01 Gyre Sage
01 Stoneforge Mystic
01 Champion of Lambholt
01 Fertilid
01 Hero of Bladehold
01 Purphoros, God of the Forge
01 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
01 Ivy Lane Denizen
01 Ogre Battledriver
01 Hellrider
01 Spike Weaver
01 Kozilek's Predator
01 Emeria Angel
01 Ant Queen
01 Skullmulcher
01 Juniper Order Ranger
01 Emrakul's Hatcher
01 Requiem Angel
01 Rampaging Baloths
01 Dragon Broodmother
01 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
01 Avenger of Zendikar
01 Verdant Force
Artifacts (4)
01 Skullclamp
01 Basilisk Collar
01 Sol Ring
01 Illusionist's Bracers
01 Keen Sense
01 Rest in Peace
01 Luminarch Ascension
01 Goblin Bombardment
01 Shivan Harvest
01 Fecundity
01 Aura Shards
01 Awakening Zone
01 Druid's Repository
01 Parallel Lives
01 Glare of Subdual
01 Humility
01 Assemble the Legion
01 Doubling Season
01 Cathars' Crusade
01 Perilous Forays
01 Primal Vigor
01 Warstorm Surge
01 Mirari's Wake
Instants / Sorceries (13)
01 Tempt with Vengeance
01 Vandalblast
01 Sylvan Scrying
01 Nature's Lore
01 Martial Coup
01 Krosan Grip
01 Growth Spasm
01 Cultivate
01 Kodama's Reach
01 Skyshroud Claim
01 Hallowed Burial
01 Austere Command
01 Xenagos, the Reveler
01 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands (37)
06 Plains
09 Forest
03 Mountain
01 Wasteland
01 Strip Mine
01 Maze of Ith
01 Gavony Township
01 Command Tower
01 Opal Palace
01 Wooded Foothills
01 Arid Mesa
01 Windswept Heath
01 Marsh Flats
01 Scalding Tarn
01 Flooded Strand
01 Misty Rainforest
01 Savannah
01 Temple Garden
01 Plateau
01 Sacred Foundry
01 Stomping Ground
01 Gaea's Cradle
Does it win? Yes.
Is it easy to block? I guess depends on your exact build. Nekorin's list in the OP is pretty resilient to most Commander strategies. If I had to guess, it's biggest weakness is going up against other combo, especially faster combo and/or combo that has access to blue. You're mostly just racing those types of decks and trying to make sure a key combo piece doesn't get countered.
I think the biggest weakness I've seen of other Marath decks on the forums is that they over-rely on Marath to get the combos/engines going without backup tutor power, making the decks very vulnerable to tuck spells. Nekorin's build is prepared and ready for that with all the creature tutors, though.
Sorry ! English is not my maternal language
I am a new player EDH. I got up a deck almost identical to this one. I find it very vulnerable against a control deck. How successful has overcome ?
Thanks Fixius for the compliments. Yes this deck has some problems when facing against a full control deck. In my meta control decks aren't really that prevalent hence I didn't put much emphasis into countering control. In Naya we have access one of the best anti-counter tech, Vexing Shusher. Cards like Grand Abolisher, City of Solitude can also help in fighting against countermagic.
Another more proactive approach (not for all playgroups though) towards control players is to control them ourselves, by using resource denial (with both land destruction and mana rock destruction). Cards to change from current deck list should the landee route is fine for the playgroup.
- Rhys the Redeemed
- Skyshroud Claim
+ Shivan Harvest
+ Reap and Sow or Crop Rotation
With the change the deck comes fully equipped should the ability to control opponents is needed. Notable landee combos within the deck are:
1) Azusa, Lost but Seeking + Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine
2) Shivan Harvest + Kitchen Finks + Ivy Lane Denizen
Thanks Silex for the compliments. Yep the key to drop the infinites is to drop the mana producers that generate mana from creature tapping/sacrificing/ETB. With limited mana there is only so much we can perform a turn.
You are right on the weakness of the deck, the main weakness of the deck is that it has very limited options to stop combos from going off. There is nothing in the deck that kills graveyard shegangians. Hopefully in future there is some Night Soil variant that I can use, which has some synergy with tokens. For creature based combos my current defense is to machinegun down that creature with marath and token bombardment, vs enchantment/artifacts aura shards will do the controlling.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused