Voice of Resurgence has been extremely strong for me, but I think that widely depends on your meta. I play against a large number of control decks, so i get a good deal of use out of it after it hits the field. It helps that the tokens can get pretty terrifying.
As for Ivy Lane Denizan, I've definitely considered it. I think that it could be interesting, but the kind of cards it would replace all have the potential to pump multiple creatures at once. If I were to put it in the deck, I'm just not sure what I could take out for it. However, I do have Cathars' Crusade for a similar, but stronger effect.
I am curious to see what other Marath users think of it, though. So if anyone has experience with the card, your thoughts on it would be appreciated. ^.^
I've been looking for a spot for Chromatic Lantern for a while, and I've finally made room for it. The ramp spells that were up for consideration were Wood Elves, Nature's Lore, Farseek, and Kodama's Reach. Wood Elves and Kodama's Reach both have additionally utility, Wood Elves by being more easily recurrable, able to attack, and triggers ETB effects, and Kodama's Reach by providing protection from basic land hate, and ensuring I hit at least one land drop after I ramp. That left Farseek and Nature's Lore.
Neither of these cards can help me ramp into an earlier Marath, though they do help speed the deck up. It came down to whether I valued the untapped land or the ability to grab Sacred Foundry/Plateau more. Typically I grab shock lands with Nature's Lore as it is, so I made the choice for it to go.
Ivy Lane Denizen is in my Marath deck (can't find a Cathar Crusade locally) and it's pretty useful. It makes Avenger of Zendikar absolutely devastating. I feel like there will be room in my list for both once I do get the crusade.
I can see him being good as part of a combo engine, but aside from Avenger of Zendikar, I think he's a bit lackluster. If he triggered off of creatures of any color, I might think differetly.
That said, the cards I'm really looking at right now are Glare of Subdual and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, though I'll cover Ajani more once Journy into Nyx is fully spoiled.
Well, I had a review written up for Journey into Nyx, but I lost it. So, now that I'm a bit demoralize from writing it again, I'm just going to cover the cards from this set that I'm interested in testing.
Launch the Fleet - I keep hearing about how good this will be for token decks, so I'm willing to test it. However, with Marath as our commander it's better in the long run to hold your mana open and make tokens at the end of your opponents turn, if you didn't need to use him for removal. I also dislike that this sorcery is essentially a 'one shot'.
Dictate of Heliod - A strong anthem, and flash makes it easy to catch people off guard, especially win your opponents are used to you holding mana open. The biggest issue here is finding a card to cut for it.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - I'm extremely excited for this guy. While his ultimate is mediocre, his first ability can fuel Marath, and his second is card advantage when you don't have anything better on field.
Iroas, God of Victory - This will be a card to test, though I don't think that he'll provide quite enough of a combat boost.
Once I've had a chance to test some of these out, I'll update here with my results. ^.^
I agree that Launch the Fleet is not that amazing since you already need a decent board position for it to do anything.
Iroas could be really good since it makes it impossible to block profitably against you and if you combine him with Heliod or Ajani Goldmane you can attack with all you got every turn because it doesn't make any difference (you neither lose creatures nor will you be unable to block) squeezing through every possible point of damage.
I agree that Launch the Fleet is not that amazing since you already need a decent board position for it to do anything.
Iroas could be really good since it makes it impossible to block profitably against you and if you combine him with Heliod or Ajani Goldmane you can attack with all you got every turn because it doesn't make any difference (you neither lose creatures nor will you be unable to block) squeezing through every possible point of damage.
I'll consider testing Ajani in conjunction with Iroas, once I get ahold of him. I wouldn't run Heliod though, I think that his token making ability is overcosted, and the vigilance by itself isn't a good enough reason to run him.
I love Kalonian Hydra, but while it does fuel Marath, it's harder to get that pump effect on my other creatures. Ajani is much more consistant than the Hydra, and by giving Marath counters, gives me more options than Garruk does while still giving me potential card advantage. Glare of Subdual is being added for another boost to the control side of the deck.
I did test out Launch the Fleets and Dictate of Heliod, and while they're cute combat tricks, they don't do much else. My other token/anthem effects either cost less, provide additional utility, or are simply stronger than these two.
I still have Iroas in the deck to test, but I haven't seen him, or had a situation where I needed to tutor for him over an answer yet, so I can't say if he'll stay yet.
Hey, I find your deck very very interesting and would love to try it out.
What are some budget choices that can be made for the higher costing cards, and what is considered the "core" and should I invest in.
For the most part, most of the money cards in the deck (though my definition as a former legacy player is a bit skewed, and I apologize in advance for that >.<) are tied up in the land base, but even a cheaper land base will work well, just keep in mind that with the change in land you'll want to change the ramp spells you run from the ones I run.
Core Cards
These are the cards you'll want most, and most of them will work in any build that uses Marath.
Strong Cards In This Particular Build
Most of these aren't extremely expensive though they aren't the cheapest, but they are some of the most useful. They are not, however, required.
Future Investments
These are the cards that are more expensive on my list to obtain and not ones I would go out of my way for if you're just trying the deck out, but are a good future invenstment to eventually get if you decide you enjoy the deck.
Lands that tap for any color: City of Brass Mana Confluence (Probably won't be an option until it drops out of standard, but I'll put it here just in case) Jungle Shrine
Other than that, just up your basic count. Because...
Other than that, just make sure that you have a good amount of anthems, removal, and at least a couple other token generators (Jade Mage and Mycoloth for example), just in case something happens to Marath. As I said, I'm not sure what your budget looks like, so I'm not sure which cards you'd be keeping or which cards you'd be looking to replace, but hopefully this is a good starting point.
If I didn't mention it, it's a card you can leave out if you choose. Things like Exploration are nice to have, but not really nesseary. Putting in another cheap ramp spell would work.
I'm sorry for the novel. If you have further questions about a specific card or card type, please let me know. I'm more than happy to help!
I finally caved and added Craterhoof to the deck. May we have a moment of silence for our fallen brother, Godsire. In all seriousness, I've been trying to move this deck from the weird spot it holds in my group, worse than the competitive decks but better than most of the casual decks. The card is brutal with Marath later in the game if it resolves, and gives the deck a second win con off of Tooth and Nail by grabbing it an Avenger of Zendikar with a haste enabler (the first being Purphoros, God of the Forge and Avenger of Zendikar).
In other news, I have not been impressed by Iroas, God of Victory. There's been too many situations where he's done next to nothing, as there aren't many games where he made a difference in my damage, aside from win more. I'll keep him in for a little while longer, but it isn't likely he'll make the cut. I may potentially test out Stoneforge Mystic in that slot when I'm done with Iroas, as a means to grab either removal (Basilisk Collar) or card draw (Skullclamp).
So, after a month of testing Iroas, God of Victory, I've decided that he won't make the cut. While he was useful in some situations, he made no difference in the majority of games where I played him.
Staring today, I will be testing out Stoneforge Mystic in the slot I was using for him. It may end up being that I don't run enough equipment for her, but another tutor for Basilisk Collar and Skullclamp couldn't hurt to try.
As for Conspiracy spoilers, the only card I saw that interests me is the reprint of Exploration. There really aren't many cards that are better than what I already am running. Realm Seekers is the most interesting, but I believe that he costs too much. The more mana you spend to use its ability, the less you have to control the board with Marath.
I'm curious about the lack of Mana Echoes.
It allows you to empty marath of counters by tapping one land and then you get excess colorless mana afterwards.
It is an instant win when paired with Cathars' Crusade and Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Also I have had huge success with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. The politics and anthem(and buff to marath's damage ability) makes her extremely useful. Her first strike is also amazing against prossh decks.
Assuming you can get it going, it's an instant win on it's own with Doubling Season, because you can use your endless mana to add counters back onto Marath, and kill everyone directly with his burn ability. Earthcraft will also do the trick, as will Ashnod's Altar.
The very first few drafts of this deck that I ran were all about combing off, but I found it pretty boring to tutor up the same card(s) every time I picked up the deck. Combo without blue is also pretty rough in my meta, because you have to build to work around control decks (you have to resolve Dosan of the Falling Leaf types of cards or it generally won't work against 3-5 decks running gross amounts of counter magic), which aren't the norm. The boredom I was having combined with the fact that the combos themselves seldom worked lead me to switch up my playstyle to a combat step approach (which to be honest, I'm much more comfortable playing). Of course, it's all up to the deck builder's preference. ^.^
Now, that being said using any of those cards as back up win conditions could be an interesting approach, shifting away from my token swarm/control approach into an aggro/combo deck. Currently, I have Craterhoof Behemoth designated as my big flashy game ender, but any of those three cards could probably fill a similar role if you adjust your tutors for it.
Great list! Seems very fun to play with. The synergies of the deck are amazing.
I would run Grand Abolisher instead of Vexing Shusher, it can shut down any kind of prevention and nasty things incoming in your turn such as removals/wraths etc...
Great list! Seems very fun to play with. The synergies of the deck are amazing.
I would run Grand Abolisher instead of Vexing Shusher, it can shut down any kind of prevention and nasty things incoming in your turn such as removals/wraths etc...
Thank you! The deck is pretty fun, it's by far my favorite deck.
So, on the Abolisher versus the Shusher. Either card will work, I think it's really preference dependent as well as meta dependent. My play group runs enough control that Vexing Shusher can be a unique political tool, because I can control counter wars without actually needing to run counterspells on my own. Now, if your group runs enough disruption to worry you, but not enough for you to use it to your own ends, then I think Grand Abolisher is a better choice. ^.^
Now here's where preference comes in; if you really rely on a couple of pieces to resolve for your primary win conditions, the Abolisher is also better. I've tried to make this deck so that it isn't too reliant on any one card, so I'm more comfortable running the Shusher because they can only focus on me so much before someone else is an issue.
Understood. In my group there's a lot of damage prevention and removals being used on my turns, so it fits better here.
Fair enough. Here's another interesting thing I learned today about Grand Abolisher in my group.
I don't play it, I've only run it in one deck (Gisela, Blade of Goldnight) and that deck was short lived, so I've never really seen my group's reaction to it. Someone else was running it though, and the poor card was doomed to never resolve. Usually, due to the large number of control decks I play with, they don't agree on what should and shouldn't resolve, but they ganged up pretty fast to figure out who had a way to prevent the Abolisher from happening.
I don't play traditional counterspell control decks, so they explained the difference between it and Vexing Shusher like this: Vexing Shusher can't be countered, so that already limits the number of ways they have in their decks to stop it. However, because I have to use mana to activate it, it's more likely to stick around (what they don't seem to understand yet is that I'm not setting myself back a turn, I'm using it to make sure my kill spells stick >:D). Their hope is that it sets me back a turn. They also hope that I use it to help them. ^.^
Of course, my group isn't in the norm, so take this with a grain of salt. But it's just another side of 'Different metas want different kinds of cards'.
So, I would consider this deck list pretty tight, in that it's usually a tough decision in regards to what cards to take out when making replacements. In my current list, the weakest link after my meta shift is Fresh Meat, but I'm currently leaning towards Mirror Entity as it's replacement, which means that to fit in Chord of Calling, I'll have to find something else.
So, my question to anyone reading this: Would you consider Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to be worth a spot, assuming that you have no intention of abusing any of his potential combos?
I run kiki in my naya build and he is pretty excellent. He can make card advantage with the right ETB guys out and he is always a big threat. I personally find 'fair' kiking to be pretty fun as well. He is one of the main reasons I want red in my GWx deck.
I run kiki in my naya build and he is pretty excellent. He can make card advantage with the right ETB guys out and he is always a big threat. I personally find 'fair' kiking to be pretty fun as well. He is one of the main reasons I want red in my GWx deck.
Fair points. ^.^ I may just mess around with a land then, and see if I get manna screwed too often. If so, kill find another card.
Would you consider Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to be worth a spot, assuming that you have no intention of abusing any of his potential combos?
I've been wondering this myself. I'm currently in the process of building Marath, and it will likely end up looking pretty similar to your list. Sans infinite combos, there's not a ton of stuff here that is incredible in combination with Kiki, but the stuff that does work well is pretty damn good (Avenger, Witness, Craterhoof, and Sun Titan are all great targets, and I will likely run Acidic Slime; and an extra Wood Elves, Harmonic Sliver, or Pridemage can be useful..unfortunately I don't have a Voice of Resurgence, as that seems like it could be a decent target, as well). I don't have my deck finished yet, so most of my theory-crafting is based on my Riku deck, which has a lot more etb guys. IIRC, I only run one infinite combo with him in that deck; and I very rarely even go for it. And yet, I still always love drawing him (but again, that deck runs way more etb creatures). Tooth and Nail for Kiki + Craterhoof (or Avenger if you already have him) is always a good time, but I'm already having trouble fitting in everything I would like (which is almost always the case with every edh deck I build), so I'm having to think real hard about whether he is worth it/necessary. Almost seems a shame not to run him in a deck that has access to him, but you pose a good question.
Also, have you tried Grafted Exoskeleton? I'm tempted to give it a try, especially since I'll have a few more ways to build up lots of counters on Marath (Forgotten Ancient, Opal Palace, Ajani Goldmane since I have no Mentor of Heroes) in order to take off 10 counters and nuke people out with poison damage (or supplement a previous or upcoming Inkmoth strike). Also makes me want to run Triskelion and/or Triskelavus, but idk if that's getting too "cute."
Well, imma go sort through this fat stack of cards again. I've got like 5 slots left in my deck and about 50 cards I'd like to play, lol.
I've been wondering this myself. I'm currently in the process of building Marath, and it will likely end up looking pretty similar to your list. Sans infinite combos, there's not a ton of stuff here that is incredible in combination with Kiki, but the stuff that does work well is pretty damn good (Avenger, Witness, Craterhoof, and Sun Titan are all great targets, and I will likely run Acidic Slime; and an extra Wood Elves, Harmonic Sliver, or Pridemage can be useful..unfortunately I don't have a Voice of Resurgence, as that seems like it could be a decent target, as well). I don't have my deck finished yet, so most of my theory-crafting is based on my Riku deck, which has a lot more etb guys. IIRC, I only run one infinite combo with him in that deck; and I very rarely even go for it. And yet, I still always love drawing him (but again, that deck runs way more etb creatures). Tooth and Nail for Kiki + Craterhoof (or Avenger if you already have him) is always a good time, but I'm already having trouble fitting in everything I would like (which is almost always the case with every edh deck I build), so I'm having to think real hard about whether he is worth it/necessary. Almost seems a shame not to run him in a deck that has access to him, but you pose a good question.
I'm going to mess with one less land drop, instead for now. ^.^ I don't have too many targets for him to grab, but the ones that are there are pretty good. I'll have to think on this some more, because I don't know what I want and I love all my cards.
Also, have you tried Grafted Exoskeleton? I'm tempted to give it a try, especially since I'll have a few more ways to build up lots of counters on Marath (Forgotten Ancient, Opal Palace, Ajani Goldmane since I have no Mentor of Heroes) in order to take off 10 counters and nuke people out with poison damage (or supplement a previous or upcoming Inkmoth strike). Also makes me want to run Triskelion and/or Triskelavus, but idk if that's getting too "cute."
Well, imma go sort through this fat stack of cards again. I've got like 5 slots left in my deck and about 50 cards I'd like to play, lol.
On Grafted Exoskeleton I though about it, however when I build this deck I also still had my Varolz, the Scar-Stripped infect deck together, so infect as a theme of the deck was something I largely wanted to avoid. Even now, all I really use Triumph of the Hordes and Inkmoth Nexus for is to take out people who have either incurred my wrath, or that I feel are playing a deck that the table can't handle. Triskelion would be the better of the two, because you want to leave as much mana open between turns as you can, but without his combo counterpart, I think he's just a slower Marath. You still need to add counters on to both to use them, in which case dealing damage with Marath is generally faster. If you play it smart, you have minimal risk of your general being tucked, so he's pretty reliable.
just noticed the Ivy Lane Denizen discussion. I run him in my Ghave deck (in addition to Cathar's Crusade). It took me a while to convince myself to try him; and whenever I'm looking to make cuts, he's always one of the first cards I consider, but then I draw him and combo out and rethink my position. Crusade is certainly better in general if you only run one of the two (and like you said, your list is pretty tight), but if you have room/desire for redundancy, I think he is worth it. He can facilitate a lot of broken plays. I had forgotten about him, because I haven't played my Ghave deck in months, but now I'm going to have to consider running him in my Marath deck, too (grrrr...and I had just got it trimmed down to size ). Especially since I'm running Mana Echoes, which allows for infinite 1/1 tokens and colorless mana in combination with Denizen and Marath. Add in Doubling Season, and you get infinite infinite/infinites on top of an infinite/infinite commander (and probably a ton of smaller tokens, too, lol).
Speaking of Mana Echoes, it sounded by one of your comments above that you had probably tried it at some point, but just for anyone else that happens to be reading this for ideas, I would strongly recommend at least considering it. It can do some stupid stuff. The first game I played with Marath after building my first draft ended with me dealing well over 200 damage via combat facilitated in large part by Mana Echoes, in concert with Parallel Lives and a Chord of Calling for Craterhoof Behemoth. Echoes makes so much colorless mana so easily that I really wanted to add more mana sinks in order to abuse it (I'm almost tempted to run friggin' Gemstone Array to kill everyone at the table in one turn via huge Marath nukes [turning the excess colorless into colored mana to repeatedly cast him for more and more until you can one-shot people with direct damage]), but space is tight.
Ok, ok...I really should go to sleep now...must stop thinking about MtG....
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How has Voice of Resurgence been for you? Also have you looked into Ivy Lane Denizen? He seems like he could be useful for pumping Marath.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Thank you!
Voice of Resurgence has been extremely strong for me, but I think that widely depends on your meta. I play against a large number of control decks, so i get a good deal of use out of it after it hits the field. It helps that the tokens can get pretty terrifying.
As for Ivy Lane Denizan, I've definitely considered it. I think that it could be interesting, but the kind of cards it would replace all have the potential to pump multiple creatures at once. If I were to put it in the deck, I'm just not sure what I could take out for it. However, I do have Cathars' Crusade for a similar, but stronger effect.
I am curious to see what other Marath users think of it, though. So if anyone has experience with the card, your thoughts on it would be appreciated. ^.^
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Out
Nature's Lore
In
Chromatic Lantern
I've been looking for a spot for Chromatic Lantern for a while, and I've finally made room for it. The ramp spells that were up for consideration were Wood Elves, Nature's Lore, Farseek, and Kodama's Reach. Wood Elves and Kodama's Reach both have additionally utility, Wood Elves by being more easily recurrable, able to attack, and triggers ETB effects, and Kodama's Reach by providing protection from basic land hate, and ensuring I hit at least one land drop after I ramp. That left Farseek and Nature's Lore.
Neither of these cards can help me ramp into an earlier Marath, though they do help speed the deck up. It came down to whether I valued the untapped land or the ability to grab Sacred Foundry/Plateau more. Typically I grab shock lands with Nature's Lore as it is, so I made the choice for it to go.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
That said, the cards I'm really looking at right now are Glare of Subdual and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, though I'll cover Ajani more once Journy into Nyx is fully spoiled.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Launch the Fleet - I keep hearing about how good this will be for token decks, so I'm willing to test it. However, with Marath as our commander it's better in the long run to hold your mana open and make tokens at the end of your opponents turn, if you didn't need to use him for removal. I also dislike that this sorcery is essentially a 'one shot'.
Dictate of Heliod - A strong anthem, and flash makes it easy to catch people off guard, especially win your opponents are used to you holding mana open. The biggest issue here is finding a card to cut for it.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - I'm extremely excited for this guy. While his ultimate is mediocre, his first ability can fuel Marath, and his second is card advantage when you don't have anything better on field.
Iroas, God of Victory - This will be a card to test, though I don't think that he'll provide quite enough of a combat boost.
Once I've had a chance to test some of these out, I'll update here with my results. ^.^
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Iroas could be really good since it makes it impossible to block profitably against you and if you combine him with Heliod or Ajani Goldmane you can attack with all you got every turn because it doesn't make any difference (you neither lose creatures nor will you be unable to block) squeezing through every possible point of damage.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
I'll consider testing Ajani in conjunction with Iroas, once I get ahold of him. I wouldn't run Heliod though, I think that his token making ability is overcosted, and the vigilance by itself isn't a good enough reason to run him.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Out
Kalonian Hydra
Garruk, Primal Hunter
In
Glare of Subdual
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
I love Kalonian Hydra, but while it does fuel Marath, it's harder to get that pump effect on my other creatures. Ajani is much more consistant than the Hydra, and by giving Marath counters, gives me more options than Garruk does while still giving me potential card advantage. Glare of Subdual is being added for another boost to the control side of the deck.
I did test out Launch the Fleets and Dictate of Heliod, and while they're cute combat tricks, they don't do much else. My other token/anthem effects either cost less, provide additional utility, or are simply stronger than these two.
I still have Iroas in the deck to test, but I haven't seen him, or had a situation where I needed to tutor for him over an answer yet, so I can't say if he'll stay yet.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
What are some budget choices that can be made for the higher costing cards, and what is considered the "core" and should I invest in.
I'm glad you like the list!
For the most part, most of the money cards in the deck (though my definition as a former legacy player is a bit skewed, and I apologize in advance for that >.<) are tied up in the land base, but even a cheaper land base will work well, just keep in mind that with the change in land you'll want to change the ramp spells you run from the ones I run.
Core Cards
These are the cards you'll want most, and most of them will work in any build that uses Marath.
Aura Shards
Doubling Season
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Cathars' Crusade
Mirari's Wake/Mana Reflection (either will work, but I much prefer Mirari's Wake because of the anthem)
Chromatic Lantern (Not nessesarily a core card for me, but it will make a budget land base so much easier to use)
Basilisk Collar
Skullclamp
Winding Canyons
Strong Cards In This Particular Build
Most of these aren't extremely expensive though they aren't the cheapest, but they are some of the most useful. They are not, however, required.
Glare of Subdual
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Parallel Lives
Assemble the Legion
Beastmaster Ascension
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Avenger of Zendikar (if you have the precon, this one is easy :D)
Gahiji, Honored One (if you have the precon, this one is easy :D)
Hammer of Purphoros (or Fires of Yavimaya/Fervor, whatever you can find the cheapest)
Privileged Position
Xenagos, the Reveler
Future Investments
These are the cards that are more expensive on my list to obtain and not ones I would go out of my way for if you're just trying the deck out, but are a good future invenstment to eventually get if you decide you enjoy the deck.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (Dictate of Heliod isn't nearly as good, but it could be a workable replacement here)
Elspeh, Sun's Champion
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Rhys the Redeemed
Oracle of Mul Daya
Seedborn Muse
The shocks (if you don't already have them or plan to obtain them)
Lands
These are just examples of lands that could work. I'm not sure what your budget is, so I'll try to cover a wide spectrum. ^.^
The lands I would try to find:
Krosan Verge
Dryad Arbor (only if you happen to get a copy of Green Sun's Zenith, otherwise just leave it out)
Command Tower
Gavony Township
Kessig Wolf Run
There is no direct replacement for something like Gaea's Cradle, so just a basic is your best bet.
For duel colored lands, any of the following will work, but here's my personal preference (sorted by tier >):
Shocks (i.e. Temple Garden) > Checks (i.e. Rootbound Crag)/Filters (i.e. Fire-Lit Thicket) > Scrys (i.e. Temple of Abandon)/Pain (i.e. Battlefield Forge) > Guildgates (i.e. Gruul Guildgate) > Karoos (i.e. Selesnya Sanctuary
Lands that tap for any color:
City of Brass
Mana Confluence (Probably won't be an option until it drops out of standard, but I'll put it here just in case)
Jungle Shrine
Other than that, just up your basic count. Because...
Ramp
Most of my ramp focuses on grabbing lands of a certain type (i.e. Forest, Mountain, Plains) which is great when you have access to the ABUR duels and the shock lands. Without them, however, I would switch towards grabbing basic lands:
Farhaven Elf (instead of Wood Elves)
Rampant Growth (instead of Farseek)
Cultivate (in addition to Kodama's Reach)
Explosive Vegetation (instead of Skyshroud Claim)
Sakura-Tribe Elder (Already in the list)
Other than that, just make sure that you have a good amount of anthems, removal, and at least a couple other token generators (Jade Mage and Mycoloth for example), just in case something happens to Marath. As I said, I'm not sure what your budget looks like, so I'm not sure which cards you'd be keeping or which cards you'd be looking to replace, but hopefully this is a good starting point.
If I didn't mention it, it's a card you can leave out if you choose. Things like Exploration are nice to have, but not really nesseary. Putting in another cheap ramp spell would work.
I'm sorry for the novel. If you have further questions about a specific card or card type, please let me know. I'm more than happy to help!
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Godsire
In
Craterhoof Behemoth
I finally caved and added Craterhoof to the deck. May we have a moment of silence for our fallen brother, Godsire. In all seriousness, I've been trying to move this deck from the weird spot it holds in my group, worse than the competitive decks but better than most of the casual decks. The card is brutal with Marath later in the game if it resolves, and gives the deck a second win con off of Tooth and Nail by grabbing it an Avenger of Zendikar with a haste enabler (the first being Purphoros, God of the Forge and Avenger of Zendikar).
In other news, I have not been impressed by Iroas, God of Victory. There's been too many situations where he's done next to nothing, as there aren't many games where he made a difference in my damage, aside from win more. I'll keep him in for a little while longer, but it isn't likely he'll make the cut. I may potentially test out Stoneforge Mystic in that slot when I'm done with Iroas, as a means to grab either removal (Basilisk Collar) or card draw (Skullclamp).
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Staring today, I will be testing out Stoneforge Mystic in the slot I was using for him. It may end up being that I don't run enough equipment for her, but another tutor for Basilisk Collar and Skullclamp couldn't hurt to try.
As for Conspiracy spoilers, the only card I saw that interests me is the reprint of Exploration. There really aren't many cards that are better than what I already am running. Realm Seekers is the most interesting, but I believe that he costs too much. The more mana you spend to use its ability, the less you have to control the board with Marath.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
It allows you to empty marath of counters by tapping one land and then you get excess colorless mana afterwards.
It is an instant win when paired with Cathars' Crusade and Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Also I have had huge success with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. The politics and anthem(and buff to marath's damage ability) makes her extremely useful. Her first strike is also amazing against prossh decks.
The very first few drafts of this deck that I ran were all about combing off, but I found it pretty boring to tutor up the same card(s) every time I picked up the deck. Combo without blue is also pretty rough in my meta, because you have to build to work around control decks (you have to resolve Dosan of the Falling Leaf types of cards or it generally won't work against 3-5 decks running gross amounts of counter magic), which aren't the norm. The boredom I was having combined with the fact that the combos themselves seldom worked lead me to switch up my playstyle to a combat step approach (which to be honest, I'm much more comfortable playing). Of course, it's all up to the deck builder's preference. ^.^
Now, that being said using any of those cards as back up win conditions could be an interesting approach, shifting away from my token swarm/control approach into an aggro/combo deck. Currently, I have Craterhoof Behemoth designated as my big flashy game ender, but any of those three cards could probably fill a similar role if you adjust your tutors for it.
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I would run Grand Abolisher instead of Vexing Shusher, it can shut down any kind of prevention and nasty things incoming in your turn such as removals/wraths etc...
"Their hopes dashed on our shields! Their victory slashed by our swords!" -Glory of Warfare
Thank you! The deck is pretty fun, it's by far my favorite deck.
So, on the Abolisher versus the Shusher. Either card will work, I think it's really preference dependent as well as meta dependent. My play group runs enough control that Vexing Shusher can be a unique political tool, because I can control counter wars without actually needing to run counterspells on my own. Now, if your group runs enough disruption to worry you, but not enough for you to use it to your own ends, then I think Grand Abolisher is a better choice. ^.^
Now here's where preference comes in; if you really rely on a couple of pieces to resolve for your primary win conditions, the Abolisher is also better. I've tried to make this deck so that it isn't too reliant on any one card, so I'm more comfortable running the Shusher because they can only focus on me so much before someone else is an issue.
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"Their hopes dashed on our shields! Their victory slashed by our swords!" -Glory of Warfare
Fair enough. Here's another interesting thing I learned today about Grand Abolisher in my group.
I don't play it, I've only run it in one deck (Gisela, Blade of Goldnight) and that deck was short lived, so I've never really seen my group's reaction to it. Someone else was running it though, and the poor card was doomed to never resolve. Usually, due to the large number of control decks I play with, they don't agree on what should and shouldn't resolve, but they ganged up pretty fast to figure out who had a way to prevent the Abolisher from happening.
I don't play traditional counterspell control decks, so they explained the difference between it and Vexing Shusher like this: Vexing Shusher can't be countered, so that already limits the number of ways they have in their decks to stop it. However, because I have to use mana to activate it, it's more likely to stick around (what they don't seem to understand yet is that I'm not setting myself back a turn, I'm using it to make sure my kill spells stick >:D). Their hope is that it sets me back a turn. They also hope that I use it to help them. ^.^
Of course, my group isn't in the norm, so take this with a grain of salt. But it's just another side of 'Different metas want different kinds of cards'.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
So, my question to anyone reading this: Would you consider Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to be worth a spot, assuming that you have no intention of abusing any of his potential combos?
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GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Fair points. ^.^ I may just mess around with a land then, and see if I get manna screwed too often. If so, kill find another card.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I've been wondering this myself. I'm currently in the process of building Marath, and it will likely end up looking pretty similar to your list. Sans infinite combos, there's not a ton of stuff here that is incredible in combination with Kiki, but the stuff that does work well is pretty damn good (Avenger, Witness, Craterhoof, and Sun Titan are all great targets, and I will likely run Acidic Slime; and an extra Wood Elves, Harmonic Sliver, or Pridemage can be useful..unfortunately I don't have a Voice of Resurgence, as that seems like it could be a decent target, as well). I don't have my deck finished yet, so most of my theory-crafting is based on my Riku deck, which has a lot more etb guys. IIRC, I only run one infinite combo with him in that deck; and I very rarely even go for it. And yet, I still always love drawing him (but again, that deck runs way more etb creatures). Tooth and Nail for Kiki + Craterhoof (or Avenger if you already have him) is always a good time, but I'm already having trouble fitting in everything I would like (which is almost always the case with every edh deck I build), so I'm having to think real hard about whether he is worth it/necessary. Almost seems a shame not to run him in a deck that has access to him, but you pose a good question.
Also, have you tried Grafted Exoskeleton? I'm tempted to give it a try, especially since I'll have a few more ways to build up lots of counters on Marath (Forgotten Ancient, Opal Palace, Ajani Goldmane since I have no Mentor of Heroes) in order to take off 10 counters and nuke people out with poison damage (or supplement a previous or upcoming Inkmoth strike). Also makes me want to run Triskelion and/or Triskelavus, but idk if that's getting too "cute."
Well, imma go sort through this fat stack of cards again. I've got like 5 slots left in my deck and about 50 cards I'd like to play, lol.
I'm going to mess with one less land drop, instead for now. ^.^ I don't have too many targets for him to grab, but the ones that are there are pretty good. I'll have to think on this some more, because I don't know what I want and I love all my cards.
On Grafted Exoskeleton I though about it, however when I build this deck I also still had my Varolz, the Scar-Stripped infect deck together, so infect as a theme of the deck was something I largely wanted to avoid. Even now, all I really use Triumph of the Hordes and Inkmoth Nexus for is to take out people who have either incurred my wrath, or that I feel are playing a deck that the table can't handle. Triskelion would be the better of the two, because you want to leave as much mana open between turns as you can, but without his combo counterpart, I think he's just a slower Marath. You still need to add counters on to both to use them, in which case dealing damage with Marath is generally faster. If you play it smart, you have minimal risk of your general being tucked, so he's pretty reliable.
Best of luck, and thanks for the feed back!
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Speaking of Mana Echoes, it sounded by one of your comments above that you had probably tried it at some point, but just for anyone else that happens to be reading this for ideas, I would strongly recommend at least considering it. It can do some stupid stuff. The first game I played with Marath after building my first draft ended with me dealing well over 200 damage via combat facilitated in large part by Mana Echoes, in concert with Parallel Lives and a Chord of Calling for Craterhoof Behemoth. Echoes makes so much colorless mana so easily that I really wanted to add more mana sinks in order to abuse it (I'm almost tempted to run friggin' Gemstone Array to kill everyone at the table in one turn via huge Marath nukes [turning the excess colorless into colored mana to repeatedly cast him for more and more until you can one-shot people with direct damage]), but space is tight.
Ok, ok...I really should go to sleep now...must stop thinking about MtG....