Stopping counterspells, targeted removal, and stealing enemy draw effects basically. I cut into my draw package quite a bit and wanted a set of cards that are versatile. These fit the bill perfectly.
There are a few cards that I really don't like in the list. Indrik Stomphowler, you're in red you have the opportunity to run a lot better artifact removal. Faithless Looting, Mad Prophet, and Harmonize. Two are one shot effects which really don't generate enough card advantage to really warrant using, and looting effects in general don't help this deck out at all, as there is nothing to utilize discard. Something to consider is including things that increase quality of draws. Sensei's Top, Sylvan Library, and Mirri's Guile are all powerful cards combined with the amount of shocks and land grab you have to shuffle the top cards of the deck if you don't like them. You should play Farhaven Elves before Ondu Cleric, and you should play Wood Elves before Farhaven Elves. Also the more I'm playing it myself the less I'm liking Gruul Ragebeast, I'm going to be dropping him from my testing here soon. If you're looking for more creature removal I'd suggest Domri Rade.
Not sure what's wrong with Indrik. I know better artifact removal exists in red, but better enchantment removal does not. It's a warm body at the end the day, a 8/8 with Xenagos is respectable, and trample enablers are easy to find in this list.
Ondu over Wood Elves is about the difference between going Rampant Growth -> Ondu Giant -> Xenagos, swing for 4, vs. swing for 2 with Wood Elves. I won't pretend that I know now if this is worth it or not, but that's the logic. I'll watch the spot as well.
Mad Prophet/Faithless Looting is about having non-Survival/Faunda Shaman options to put Anger, Genesis and Brawn in the bin. I've had these trapped in hand far too often for comfort. This does generate a possible discussion about whether or not it is worth including Anger, Brawn, and Genesis at all. These could easily be Fires, War Plow, and Sword of Light and Shadow respectively for instance... but those options are far less tutorable. They also help bin unwanted ramp in the late game. *shrugs*. I'd run Sylvan Library, but not Guile and only possibly Top. Need to think about it.
I'm aware that Wood Elves fetch forests. This is a bigger deal in 3 color lists where you have 4 duals to fetch, not 2.
The value of said land entering untapped is debatable as well. You need the opportunity to do something with that 1 mana for it to matter. Yes, mid to late game Wood Elves only cost 2. Mid to late I'd rather just pitch Elves/Giant for better value all around though, and at least if I can pitch neither, Ondu swings/defends better.
Basically I'm not saying Ondu is not a debatable pick, but I don't think Wood Elves is the right replacement. For this list, Ondu is the marginally better late game top deck. In most other lists Ondu isn't consistently a 4/6 for 4 vs a 2/2 for 2. Even in a Rage Pits scenario, I'd rather tap 7 for a 6/8 trample, then 5 for a 4/4 trample.
Different if I was playing Skullclamp (which I possibly should be) or other equipment, whereby Elves could use that 1 mana to suit up.
The point of it wasn't LD, but rather synergistic cards that can deal with troublesome cards. And Maze of Ith can certainly be troublesome to decks like this. Deus of Calamity is a 6/6 trample for 5 and Reap and Sow can fetch Kessig Wolf Run. Beast Within is just one of those cards that should be in every green deck since it kills any permanent. Asceticism is good because it protects your creatures from spot removal and most wraths.
Eh, I've become less satisfied with Beast Within ever since the Gods came out. I want my artifact/enchantment removal to exile, tuck, or be abusable (i.e., Acidic Slime).
I'm aware that Wood Elves fetch forests. This is a bigger deal in 3 color lists where you have 4 duals to fetch, not 2.
The value of said land entering untapped is debatable as well. You need the opportunity to do something with that 1 mana for it to matter. Yes, mid to late game Wood Elves only cost 2. Mid to late I'd rather just pitch Elves/Giant for better value all around though, and at least if I can pitch neither, Ondu swings/defends better.
Basically I'm not saying Ondu is not a debatable pick, but I don't think Wood Elves is the right replacement. For this list, Ondu is the marginally better late game top deck. In most other lists Ondu isn't consistently a 4/6 for 4 vs a 2/2 for 2. Even in a Rage Pits scenario, I'd rather tap 7 for a 6/8 trample, then 5 for a 4/4 trample.
Different if I was playing Skullclamp (which I possibly should be) or other equipment, whereby Elves could use that 1 mana to suit up.
I think you are missing the point entirely. Wood Elves costs 3 and ramps to 5 mana on turn 4. Ondu Giant costs 4 and ramps to 6 mana on turn 5. With a 5cmc general in Xenagos, you are much better off with <=3 cmc ramp spells.
I do run Wood Elves in my list, and I've found the land being untapped helpful pretty often. From paying equip costs, to keeping mana up for removal, to activating Skaarg or Kessig, it really does come in handy.
I find that Loxodon Warhammer and Basilisk collar help keep me alive against the swingbacks Xenagos can cause, plus deathtouch is the best with trample. Skullclamp draws cards off my utility guys such as Wood Elves and Eternal Witness, while also effectively giving +2 power to my attacker and drawing more cards when they inevitably get killed. Mage Slayer is pretty straightforward, but it allows for some surprise kills and a way around solid defenses.
Life happened and now I'm getting back around to this deck as part of a project to make a 100% altered/foil/proxy EDH deck. That means that I'm going to be throwing myself back into testing while taking a look and seeing if there are new cards out there that are going to be worthy to be put in. Might actually get around to editing this into a Primer as well. To kick things off huge update to the official list and some explanation to the changes.
Scourge of the Throne
4 R R
Creature - Dragon
Flying
Dethrone (Whenever this creature attacks the player with the most life or tied for most life, put a +1/+1 counter on it.)
Whenever Scourge of the Throne attacks for the first time each turn, if it's attacking the player with the most life or tied for most life, untap all attacking creatures. After this phase, there is an additional combat phase.
Yeah I saw that after I updated the post and he'll most definitely be in the deck. Multiple Combat phases built into a creature for no extra mana. I'm sold 100%.
Since last posting, I've added a strategy section and how now started to go through and add all of the card explanations, the ones that I've finished can be seen under the spoiler tag under the strategy section.
Thread Necromancy! On another note, I've updated everything with card choice explanations, as well as a few deck changes. I'm fairly sure that this is ready to be submitted to the Primer committee, but their subforums are all bungled up so I have no way of checking or submitting. Being the lamentations.
Sorry for never getting back to you Pokemaster, who knows if you'll ever see this reply. Terra Stomper just doesn't do enough, not cheap, no lifegain, etc. Moldgraf on the other hand resurrects dudes, and that is awesome. May have to be something I consider.
Yeah Grab the Reins and Rapacious one are pretty awesome in the deck. As for Soul's Fire I havn't really seen that I need that extra reach usually, or I wouldn't have the mana for it.
Might Makes Right I haven't actually been able to use yet. The one time that I got it in my hand I was already behind and couldn't afford to spend the mana to get it down and rolling. Because of that fact I'm leaning more towards the idea that it's cute, but it's a win more card which I'm not sure is what the deck really needs.
I've always been a fan of permanent based ramped, primarily due to the fact that Chaos Warp runs rampant in my meta. But I think that Talisman would be worth cutting for Nature's Lore. The others I'm not really a fan of. If you're wanting to have more ramp, or sub in spells for artifacts you're definitely able to do so but it isn't the direction that I've taken with this deck.
I should be playing Ancient Crypt, that is just a flatout oversight on my part.
Malignus I've been considering the major problem that I have with him is that he doesn't have trample and the deck as built has very few ways of giving trample. If you opted to have more trample enablers in the deck Malignus would be first on the list to be included as well. Even so he might be worth considering with this form of the deck.
Gruul Ragebeast I have tested and was never really a fan of him. He doesn't have trample himself, and he also encourages over extending onto the board for more removal, which is something that I've covered that isn't ideal for what the deck wants to do when there is the potential of boardwipes on the table.
Natural Order, I have a total of 6 small green creatures which would be ideal to sacrifice. Everything else is such a large mana investment I'm not sure how viable it is. Though being able to grab Worldspine Wurm out of the deck is very attractive.
Usually I try and avoid Elvish Piper, but I think it might actually not be terrible in this deck since we should have a haste outlet most of the time. This could be something that the deck really appreciates having. Going to be testing it.
Defense of the Heart, the reason you usually run this card is that if it resolves you go grab two creatures that will win you the game on the spot. This deck really doesn't have creatures like that outside of Hellkite Charger and then having mana available. It also serves to extend your boardstate to an undesirable point, considering that you likely already have one large creature out since you aren't likely to sit on a Defense of the Heart and hope.
Hey, Scorpio. Thanks for posting this list. I have been lurking and following your updates to it for the past year.
I run Craterhoof Behemoth, Purphoros, Avenger of Zendikar,Basilisk Collar and Balefire Dragon in my list. Balefire in particular has been a house for me, by being able to control token and aggro strategies, while it doesn't have trample - the flying evasion is typically all I have needed. Worst case scenario, I rogue's passage to guarantee I connect.
I find I draw a lot of attention, very fast once Xenagos hits the table. Basilisk collar helps make my tramplers push through damage, as well as giving me some much needed life cushioning.
Is there a reason you have strayed from these personally?
Be wary of using the former as it can act as protection for other combo decks.
Dense Foliage is playable in a meta full of removal spells. It allows abilities to target creatures and so makes the god still do its work. Also be wary of using this against combo decks.
2) In my list, I actually prefer maxing out on good 6 drops. The reason is that you are an aggro deck, so your curve still matters and you still need to take advantage of everyone's setup time to get damage in. For this reason I run 0 8-drops.
3) The theoretical earliest I can imagine it is turn 3 Xenagos into turn 4 Malignus. However, that is not realistic. Killing foes quickly also may be difficult if people are seriously wary of what you are doing. However, this deck can take anywhere from 3 combats to dome for 40 to 1 combat depending on what you have.
I play a ton of ramp to account for the deck's speed. 10+ pieces, if I recall.
By the time the primer committee got around to reviewing this thread and denying it primer status, I had actually fallen out of playing this deck, and since it didn't get primer statused I was discouraged from really picking it back up to maintain it. So the list is really quite out dated, and not as refined as it could be. As I said in the OP though, the way that I had this deck built it wasn't supposed to be hyper competitive, with blue permission being the biggest bugbear. In a meta that is very fast, blue heavy, and combo oriented I couldn't recommend this deck, as listed at all. You could cut down on some of the fatties, put in more value stuff and possibly some more ramp to make it more consistent, but that wasn't what I was aiming for with the deck. Basically if a creature didn't have trample or do something else very important for the deck, it wasn't considered.
RW Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
Not sure what's wrong with Indrik. I know better artifact removal exists in red, but better enchantment removal does not. It's a warm body at the end the day, a 8/8 with Xenagos is respectable, and trample enablers are easy to find in this list.
I'll watch Harmonize.
Ondu over Wood Elves is about the difference between going Rampant Growth -> Ondu Giant -> Xenagos, swing for 4, vs. swing for 2 with Wood Elves. I won't pretend that I know now if this is worth it or not, but that's the logic. I'll watch the spot as well.
Mad Prophet/Faithless Looting is about having non-Survival/Faunda Shaman options to put Anger, Genesis and Brawn in the bin. I've had these trapped in hand far too often for comfort. This does generate a possible discussion about whether or not it is worth including Anger, Brawn, and Genesis at all. These could easily be Fires, War Plow, and Sword of Light and Shadow respectively for instance... but those options are far less tutorable. They also help bin unwanted ramp in the late game. *shrugs*. I'd run Sylvan Library, but not Guile and only possibly Top. Need to think about it.
RW Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
The value of said land entering untapped is debatable as well. You need the opportunity to do something with that 1 mana for it to matter. Yes, mid to late game Wood Elves only cost 2. Mid to late I'd rather just pitch Elves/Giant for better value all around though, and at least if I can pitch neither, Ondu swings/defends better.
Basically I'm not saying Ondu is not a debatable pick, but I don't think Wood Elves is the right replacement. For this list, Ondu is the marginally better late game top deck. In most other lists Ondu isn't consistently a 4/6 for 4 vs a 2/2 for 2. Even in a Rage Pits scenario, I'd rather tap 7 for a 6/8 trample, then 5 for a 4/4 trample.
Different if I was playing Skullclamp (which I possibly should be) or other equipment, whereby Elves could use that 1 mana to suit up.
RW Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
Eh, I've become less satisfied with Beast Within ever since the Gods came out. I want my artifact/enchantment removal to exile, tuck, or be abusable (i.e., Acidic Slime).
I think you are missing the point entirely. Wood Elves costs 3 and ramps to 5 mana on turn 4. Ondu Giant costs 4 and ramps to 6 mana on turn 5. With a 5cmc general in Xenagos, you are much better off with <=3 cmc ramp spells.
RW Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
As for equipment, I run:
I find that Loxodon Warhammer and Basilisk collar help keep me alive against the swingbacks Xenagos can cause, plus deathtouch is the best with trample. Skullclamp draws cards off my utility guys such as Wood Elves and Eternal Witness, while also effectively giving +2 power to my attacker and drawing more cards when they inevitably get killed. Mage Slayer is pretty straightforward, but it allows for some surprise kills and a way around solid defenses.
EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
Scourge of the Throne
4 R R
Creature - Dragon
Flying
Dethrone (Whenever this creature attacks the player with the most life or tied for most life, put a +1/+1 counter on it.)
Whenever Scourge of the Throne attacks for the first time each turn, if it's attacking the player with the most life or tied for most life, untap all attacking creatures. After this phase, there is an additional combat phase.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Sorry for never getting back to you Pokemaster, who knows if you'll ever see this reply. Terra Stomper just doesn't do enough, not cheap, no lifegain, etc. Moldgraf on the other hand resurrects dudes, and that is awesome. May have to be something I consider.
Might Makes Right I haven't actually been able to use yet. The one time that I got it in my hand I was already behind and couldn't afford to spend the mana to get it down and rolling. Because of that fact I'm leaning more towards the idea that it's cute, but it's a win more card which I'm not sure is what the deck really needs.
As for big creatures, Malignus can randomly one-shot people. Gruul Ragebeast is an aggressive fattie, that also eats other peoples creatures.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
I should be playing Ancient Crypt, that is just a flatout oversight on my part.
Malignus I've been considering the major problem that I have with him is that he doesn't have trample and the deck as built has very few ways of giving trample. If you opted to have more trample enablers in the deck Malignus would be first on the list to be included as well. Even so he might be worth considering with this form of the deck.
Gruul Ragebeast I have tested and was never really a fan of him. He doesn't have trample himself, and he also encourages over extending onto the board for more removal, which is something that I've covered that isn't ideal for what the deck wants to do when there is the potential of boardwipes on the table.
Natural Order, I have a total of 6 small green creatures which would be ideal to sacrifice. Everything else is such a large mana investment I'm not sure how viable it is. Though being able to grab Worldspine Wurm out of the deck is very attractive.
Usually I try and avoid Elvish Piper, but I think it might actually not be terrible in this deck since we should have a haste outlet most of the time. This could be something that the deck really appreciates having. Going to be testing it.
Defense of the Heart, the reason you usually run this card is that if it resolves you go grab two creatures that will win you the game on the spot. This deck really doesn't have creatures like that outside of Hellkite Charger and then having mana available. It also serves to extend your boardstate to an undesirable point, considering that you likely already have one large creature out since you aren't likely to sit on a Defense of the Heart and hope.
I run Craterhoof Behemoth, Purphoros, Avenger of Zendikar,Basilisk Collar and Balefire Dragon in my list. Balefire in particular has been a house for me, by being able to control token and aggro strategies, while it doesn't have trample - the flying evasion is typically all I have needed. Worst case scenario, I rogue's passage to guarantee I connect.
I find I draw a lot of attention, very fast once Xenagos hits the table. Basilisk collar helps make my tramplers push through damage, as well as giving me some much needed life cushioning.
Is there a reason you have strayed from these personally?
Be wary of using the former as it can act as protection for other combo decks.
Dense Foliage is playable in a meta full of removal spells. It allows abilities to target creatures and so makes the god still do its work. Also be wary of using this against combo decks.
2) In my list, I actually prefer maxing out on good 6 drops. The reason is that you are an aggro deck, so your curve still matters and you still need to take advantage of everyone's setup time to get damage in. For this reason I run 0 8-drops.
3) The theoretical earliest I can imagine it is turn 3 Xenagos into turn 4 Malignus. However, that is not realistic. Killing foes quickly also may be difficult if people are seriously wary of what you are doing. However, this deck can take anywhere from 3 combats to dome for 40 to 1 combat depending on what you have.
I play a ton of ramp to account for the deck's speed. 10+ pieces, if I recall.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.