I do keep forgetting about Underworld Connections. I originally omitted Erebos based on price, thinking that since Arena is similar in price it would be the priority. But Erebos gets a nice big size 7 butt if he gets BBB more devotion aside from himself and Phenax.
For some reason I assumed he would be cheap. Didn't even occur to me to check.
I know you don't have any more room in your build.. But if I did.. Is lazav dimir mastermind a card that is any good to us?? Or if we have dimir doppelganger or the likes it's too much redundency?
My biggest issue with Lazav is that he relies way too much on your opponents having something useful. I've tried to limit cards like that in this deck.
springleaf drum was VERY underwhelming for me the time I got it.. Could've just been the game but didn't seem to need it.. Or if I could of used it I would of rather used the creature to tap and mill.. But it's such a low casting cost it's hard to remove.. Only card I thought about replacing it with was mind stone any suggestions or insight to this card?
Admittedly, this card can be underwhelming in certain circumstances. But it can be handy early game when you're not milling yet. And then, as Lyonheart has pointed out, it's also an enabler for the "tapping matters" cards, not just those with inspired. One thing to note, in case you didn't realize, is that Springleaf Drum lets you tap down a creature with summoning sickness.
My glaring weakness for this deck is def DRAW and the next weakness is RECURSION.. I def almost ran out of steam after a board wipe with not having any draw in the game.. And honestly if I had played in a 4 person match instead of a 3 person match I prob would of lost.. But luckily I was ahead enough to eeeekkk out the win.
Also when my nighthowler or sewer nemesis got sent to the graveyard it would of been nice to just get it right back. And with having no draw I was sore out of luck with my big guys gone.
So I def need to address those 2 parts of my deck… rhystic study is def on my need to get list.. As this is prob the best card to help me. Next up would be phyrexian arena. My only worry about phyrexian is it isn't a choice.. Has anyone ever died to this.. Or is that highly unlikely.?
Cards I'm considering
So again I'm on a budget so I can't just go grab the best card for the job at the moment.
Draw:
-what would be your go to if you had to have some budget draw bloodgift demon mind stone monastery siege kumena’s awakening loyal drake taigam, sidis's hand(this card really intrigues me.. It's both a scry(which helps with drawing the right stuff) and essentially a killl spell to indestructible or other pesky creatures. I feel like this is a really nice card.. Am I missing anything here?
I'll keep this to things I'm adding to what Lyonheart has said, rather than potentially repeating.
Cards like Mind Stone aren't inherently bad even without being able to recur them. But the one-time draw should just be viewed as a small add-on. For a rock like this they need to be worth running on their own.
I'm not worried so much about having Phenax out for Loyal Drake in general, being indestructible and often not a creature. The only issue I'm seeing is that early game, it's a 3-drop that's basically useless until around turn 5.
I actually don't hate Taigam, Sidisi's Hand. You're still effectively getting a draw. It's not quite scry, but it is nice being able to filter. And you're not losing anything you already had. So you don't really need extra recursion to get things back. But it does give you more options for what recursion you do have. All in all, I'm not totally sure it outperforms actual draw engines in the deck, but it could work as a budget option.
As a whole, you seem to be focusing a lot of recursion for yourself. This deck has enough wincons I wouldn't spend too much stuff on that. If you really feel you need more, I'd go for something that let's you pull from any graveyard.
As for Cemetary Puca, it's cheaper than Lazav, and can target any graveyard. I'm not sure if I'd want to run it, but it could certainly do work in the deck.
@wallabee.. Thanks a ton of going back to each post.. I know the replies take time so I appreciate you taking it.
Also didn't know you could tap a summoning sickness creature with springleaf drum that is a cool little tidbit
Also thanks for your insight on a couple of the other cards.. You may differ alittle bit from @lyonhaert but it's good to have different perspectives..
And I may have been to easy to rush to recursion as a NEED and its not.. Just the very last game I played I think I committed to the board too much and then really wished I could get back what I needed to finish the game. So it's prob not as big a need as I think it is and will just try and add 1 recursion card and focus on some other elements of the deck like draw or countermagic..
Look forward to play testing in the next few weeks with the suggestions of you and lyonhaert..
Also didn't know you could tap a summoning sickness creature with springleaf drum that is a cool little tidbit
Yep. Anything that has "tap an untapped creature you control" as a cost on it can do that because it's that object that is tapping it. Summoning sickness only says that a creature with it can't use its own abilities that require tapping.
Also thanks for your insight on a couple of the other cards.. You may differ alittle bit from @lyonhaert but it's good to have different perspectives..
Indeed it is. Don't get me started on how many different versions and approaches I've read while working on some of mine.
I outlasted it all and won... Didn't mill my first card until 2hrs in LOL... And besides the one opponent I took out at like the 2 1/2 hr mark.. All graveyards were shuffled back into their libraries so I had to start from scratch on 2 opponents haha
Had a couple comments.
springleaf drum showed up and was a good help. So def will stay.
Also fleet swallower helped me take out the best player in the game so I think it's staying in at the moment.
Had a player with Shalai, Voice of Plenty in play and so that means I can't mill him because phenax targets.. Is that correct.?
Luckily someone wiped him off the table.
But we had a weird interaction that I didn't know what to do.. So Phenax, God of Deception was on the battlefield and his devotion was above 7 so he was a creature.. I attached Pemmin's Aura to him.. Then at some point in the game phenax devotion dropped below 7 so he became an enchantment so what happens to Pemmin's Aura when that happens?
Thanks so much for this deck list I can't believe I've done so well with this deck.. But it really has so many ways to interact and win. I love it and I don't even have it maxed out like your deck list is.. My mana base is far inferior to yours.
But we had a weird interaction that I didn't know what to do.. So Phenax, God of Deception was on the battlefield and his devotion was above 7 so he was a creature.. I attached Pemmin's Aura to him.. Then at some point in the game phenax devotion dropped below 7 so he became an enchantment so what happens to Pemmin's Aura when that happens?
Auras can only enchant whatever permanent type they say (creature in this case), so as soon as Phenax ceases to be a creature (he's always an enchantment), the aura will detach and go to the graveyard as state-based actions.
But we had a weird interaction that I didn't know what to do.. So Phenax, God of Deception was on the battlefield and his devotion was above 7 so he was a creature.. I attached Pemmin's Aura to him.. Then at some point in the game phenax devotion dropped below 7 so he became an enchantment so what happens to Pemmin's Aura when that happens?
Auras can only enchant whatever permanent type they say (creature in this case), so as soon as Phenax ceases to be a creature (he's always an enchantment), the aura will detach and go to the graveyard as state-based actions.
Thanks for the rapid quick reply... Dang you are fast.
Well we played everything right then.. But I was alittle unsure.. Because actually phenax lost creature ability and gained it back in the same turn so was unsure if pemmin left as soon as he lost creature ability but that's how we played it.
This deck is so good.. Even though I have a budget version of it.. It continues to win..
Appreciate you Wallabe putting in all the work to put the primer together and playtest it and make adjustments.. I always tell plp it's not my deck but yours.
Sad mtgsalvation is closing down so we can't keep talking about this deck. But thanks for all the suggestions you made lyonhaert and I hope to keep playing this deck for years to come.
I'm really touched you've enjoyed this so much. I'll most likely port this over to the new site whenever that's ready to go. Heck, I'm even looking to make a little more time to start doing some proper testing again.
If you need life gain but it might not be worth it affecting the creatures that count graveyard as a buff.. But is away to hurt graveyard decks alittle.
Just thought I would check in.. I really enjoy your deck still
If you need life gain but it might not be worth it affecting the creatures that count graveyard as a buff.. But is away to hurt graveyard decks alittle.
Just thought I would check in.. I really enjoy your deck still
That Ashiok is probably not impactful enough. Tymaret, Chosen from Death on the other hand is a decent option because his toughness can scale, he has graveyard removal attached to foil somebody's plans, and there's potential lifegain stapled to that. Not quite Eater of the Dead (which is more of a combo piece to me) but seems to be a decent utility creature.
Phenax Mill is my second EDH deck, first being Locust God. When I first built the Phenax Mill deck, I went on EDHREC.com and crammed anything and everything that had to do with milling in the deck. After settling for the deck and losing many times (1vs1, 3-player, and 4-player matches) since I built it, I wanted to work on it some more and make it a bit more competitive. I've seen the popular infinite combos (Duskmantle Guildmage and Mindcrank, etc), but I didn't want to just throw in some infinite combos and tutors and call it a day (plus, infinite combos are less fun wins for me personally outside of cEDH). After researching and trying different routes with the deck, I came across your primer list and already ordered the cards I needed so I could build it. I love the tap/untap mechanic of this list rather than focusing on specific "I win" combos, but I am kind of torn on whether to include the mesmeric orb and Kozilek that I already have from the initial list and if the synergy will still be maintained if I do. I was reading the comments about what you would change to make a tighter overall list in a competitive sense and was curious what you would take out to include those two cards (maybe lightning greaves or lantern of insight as well if possible). Also, do you have any updates on possible inclusions from the newer sets? Just for reference as well, I'm running the same list as the primer except with Morphic Pool instead of Tainted Isle (which I will swap out in 1v1's back to Tainted Isle or put in Polluted Delta) and Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead of Jace, Memory Adept.
I feel like I should also reiterate how much I like this deck list and am very excited for my play group's next game night!
I'll tackle the rest of what you posted as soon as I can.
Thanks
Admittedly, this card can be underwhelming in certain circumstances. But it can be handy early game when you're not milling yet. And then, as Lyonheart has pointed out, it's also an enabler for the "tapping matters" cards, not just those with inspired. One thing to note, in case you didn't realize, is that Springleaf Drum lets you tap down a creature with summoning sickness.
I'll keep this to things I'm adding to what Lyonheart has said, rather than potentially repeating.
Cards like Mind Stone aren't inherently bad even without being able to recur them. But the one-time draw should just be viewed as a small add-on. For a rock like this they need to be worth running on their own.
I'm not worried so much about having Phenax out for Loyal Drake in general, being indestructible and often not a creature. The only issue I'm seeing is that early game, it's a 3-drop that's basically useless until around turn 5.
I actually don't hate Taigam, Sidisi's Hand. You're still effectively getting a draw. It's not quite scry, but it is nice being able to filter. And you're not losing anything you already had. So you don't really need extra recursion to get things back. But it does give you more options for what recursion you do have. All in all, I'm not totally sure it outperforms actual draw engines in the deck, but it could work as a budget option.
As a whole, you seem to be focusing a lot of recursion for yourself. This deck has enough wincons I wouldn't spend too much stuff on that. If you really feel you need more, I'd go for something that let's you pull from any graveyard.
As for Cemetary Puca, it's cheaper than Lazav, and can target any graveyard. I'm not sure if I'd want to run it, but it could certainly do work in the deck.
If I had to pick one of the two, I would be far more inclined to keep Dramatic Reversal here personally.
Also didn't know you could tap a summoning sickness creature with springleaf drum that is a cool little tidbit
Also thanks for your insight on a couple of the other cards.. You may differ alittle bit from @lyonhaert but it's good to have different perspectives..
And I may have been to easy to rush to recursion as a NEED and its not.. Just the very last game I played I think I committed to the board too much and then really wished I could get back what I needed to finish the game. So it's prob not as big a need as I think it is and will just try and add 1 recursion card and focus on some other elements of the deck like draw or countermagic..
Look forward to play testing in the next few weeks with the suggestions of you and lyonhaert..
Thanks again
Indeed it is. Don't get me started on how many different versions and approaches I've read while working on some of mine.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I outlasted it all and won... Didn't mill my first card until 2hrs in LOL... And besides the one opponent I took out at like the 2 1/2 hr mark.. All graveyards were shuffled back into their libraries so I had to start from scratch on 2 opponents haha
Had a couple comments.
springleaf drum showed up and was a good help. So def will stay.
While altar of dementia did not show up this game thousand-year elixir was MVP this game..
Also fleet swallower helped me take out the best player in the game so I think it's staying in at the moment.
Had a player with Shalai, Voice of Plenty in play and so that means I can't mill him because phenax targets.. Is that correct.?
Luckily someone wiped him off the table.
But we had a weird interaction that I didn't know what to do.. So Phenax, God of Deception was on the battlefield and his devotion was above 7 so he was a creature.. I attached Pemmin's Aura to him.. Then at some point in the game phenax devotion dropped below 7 so he became an enchantment so what happens to Pemmin's Aura when that happens?
Thanks so much for this deck list I can't believe I've done so well with this deck.. But it really has so many ways to interact and win. I love it and I don't even have it maxed out like your deck list is.. My mana base is far inferior to yours.
Auras can only enchant whatever permanent type they say (creature in this case), so as soon as Phenax ceases to be a creature (he's always an enchantment), the aura will detach and go to the graveyard as state-based actions.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Thanks for the rapid quick reply... Dang you are fast.
Well we played everything right then.. But I was alittle unsure.. Because actually phenax lost creature ability and gained it back in the same turn so was unsure if pemmin left as soon as he lost creature ability but that's how we played it.
Thanks for clarification
Appreciate you Wallabe putting in all the work to put the primer together and playtest it and make adjustments.. I always tell plp it's not my deck but yours.
Sad mtgsalvation is closing down so we can't keep talking about this deck. But thanks for all the suggestions you made lyonhaert and I hope to keep playing this deck for years to come.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Thank you for the work you've had doing testing it because it's great.
I wanted to ask you if you would view any new card for the expansions that have come out since 2017 (which was the last modification I think)
and also if you'd give me advice on how to focus this deck on 1 vs 1 commander.
Still very fun for me.. Thinking of adding some new cards from some new sets.. Wasn't sure if you saw anything pop up you might add.
Ashiok, Sculptor of Fears
Looked inviting but might be too much mana to be effective
And possible
Tymaret, Chosen from Death
If you need life gain but it might not be worth it affecting the creatures that count graveyard as a buff.. But is away to hurt graveyard decks alittle.
Just thought I would check in.. I really enjoy your deck still
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I feel like I should also reiterate how much I like this deck list and am very excited for my play group's next game night!
I added Maddening Cacophony
Just curious if you made any altars to it ?