How it works:
Most of the 1-4 drop creatures are among the aggroest little bastards to ever exist. Especially at the 4-drop slot, things start getting pretty dangerous. With A&C as a reliable 3-drop, and a way to mini-overrun, you can get in lots of early damage before anyone stabilizes.
Eventually, this being EDH, things will probably stabilize. At this point, you've got some good options. Firstly, lots of your dudes scale well into the late-game - dudes like dragonmaster outcast, krenko, mikaeus, etc get more powerful the longer the game goes on. Second, the deck has some pretty stellar game-enders, like elesh norn, elspeth III, aurelia, gisela, cathar's crusade, etc. And last, but not least, you've got the greatest gift that wizards ever saw fit to bestow on RW:
There's a lot of tutors for it in the deck (enlightened tutor, steelshaper's gift, stoneforge mystic, stonehewer giant, Quest for the holy relic, and godo), and lots of good stuff to do once you've got it. The best part is mistveil plains, which is easily gettable off either sunforger via tithe, or via any fetch that can get plains. Then you can keep recurring removal, repeatedly fog with dawn charm, protect your field from wipes with boros charm, go get more equipment with enlightened tutor, etc. This gives you some real reach into the late-game.
You may notice that my lands are a bit short, because I had a hell of a time making cuts. So the #1 thing I need help with is cutting some stuff.
First of all aggro does work n EDH. Edric. Krenko.
Second of all, looking at the potential cut list from Lark...For sure dump the DMaster Outcast. Krenko...you don't run enough other goblins to get the most utility out of him. Serra Ascendant, Norn and Gisela are must keeps I think. The rest are things you could probably dump. I'd consider replacing those cards with more token generation (if it's goblins you can then keep Krenko).
First of all aggro does work n EDH. Edric. Krenko.
Second of all, looking at the potential cut list from Lark...For sure dump the DMaster Outcast. Krenko...you don't run enough other goblins to get the most utility out of him. Serra Ascendant, Norn and Gisela are must keeps I think. The rest are things you could probably dump. I'd consider replacing those cards with more token generation (if it's goblins you can then keep Krenko).
Some of my cuts are based on your current number of mana sources. That being said, even if you were to include a few more mana sources, are you prepared to make enough cuts to adjust your curve so you can reliably get to 7 mana? I've been running Gisela since she was first spoiled and, I know I'm stating the obvious, you need more mana sources. My primary use for Abolisher in Boros is to force through MLD. Of course, that's not the only use for it.
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There are no divisions: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:28
See, I think this is why I've mostly stopped doing goodstuffy-type decks like this, I'm terrible at making cuts when I can't hold the cards up to a strict strategy. But yes, I mean of course I want to kick up the land count. Generally I consider chrome mox/sol ring/mana crypt to be "lands" for the purpose of land count, but I'd say I want about 38 including those, so ideally another 4 lands.
Anyway, looking at the cuts that were mentioned:
champion of the parish - He's obviously part of the aggro gameplan, he's not a good draw late-game, but since most of my creatures are humans he can get quite a few counters pretty quickly. Unfortunately human tokens are pretty few and far between, so the human count is 22, although ofc A&C are always available. So on average I could expect it to be about a 4/4 by turn 4. I dunno, that's not amazing or anything, I don't want to dilute my 1-drop spot too much though, and it's hard to find 1-drops that don't suck in the p/t department.
dragonmaster outcast - i'm curious why neither of you seem to like this guy? I haven't used him yet, but besides being fragile he seems like a massive amount of threat for 1 mana. And he comes out early to get in some damage, especially if I get some global pumps going.
serra ascendant - I'm seriously very confused by this one. It's a 6/6 for 1. It's probably the most efficiently costed beater in the format. Why would you ever consider cutting this in an aggro deck?
spikeshot elder - Sort of like outcast, I like him because he's a body early, and a potential threat late. Mostly I think his value comes from the fact that I want to get sunforger every game, making him a potential beacon of destruction on a stick. He's also decent with pumps from A&N (although admittedly the deck is a bit low on those in this incarnation, outside of the flickering ward). I know he's not great in a very aggro gameplan, but I feel like he's reach + a body. Maybe he's not enough reach, I guess it depends how reliably I can throw some equipment on him.
Accorder paladin - this guy is more like champion, on the aggro plan. You don't think he's worth running? I guess it depends how many bodies I can get on the field, but as a pseudo-anthem with 3 power for 2, I feel like he's really strong for early damage. Although with the relatively low number of A&C enablers it might be hard to keep him alive.
lightning mauler - I'm thinking maybe I think this guy is better than he is, just because he's unlikely to get decoupled, and that 1-toughness is a liability.
Precinct captain - He's not especially gifted with p/t, but a 2/2 fs is reasonably hard to block in the early game, and 2-mana token producers are pretty few and far between. I guess it depends on how reliably he can find someone open is. Definitely with fumiko he seems like an all-star. I want a fairly high density of 2-drops to fit into the curve with A&C is the main thing. I like him reasonably on the defense since he can make a 5-damage fs wall with A&C on the defense, and craps out tokens for pumps on the offense (hopefully). Compare to, for example, brimaz - brimaz is definitely strong, but it means I'm either playing A&C on turn 4, or I'm playing him turn 4...he just fits much more awkwardly into my curve.
goldnight commander - I don't love this guy, but for a 4-drop I feel like he can do absurd things. I guess he needs to trigger twice per turn to really make sense. With the number of creatures I'm running I can probably reliably get at least 1 a turn, so that's decent...cards he actually synergizes with, there's dmaster, precinct captain, brimaz, recruiter, hero of bladehold (ridiculously), krenko (ditto), ranger of eos, sun titan, kher keep, both elspeths, SoLaS...12 cards? That's not bad, especially since he gets so nuts with some of them. I dunno, maybe I'll cut him but I think he at least deserves testing.
hero of oxid ridge - another guy who's sort of dependent on how well the early-game is going...I sorta want to cut him but he seems like he could bring a lot of pain on turn 4.
krenko - Erg, I think I should probably cut him. He's probably too slow. He is sort of a must-answer threat at 4, but compared to hero of bladehold or other 4-drops he's not exactly aggro.
archangel of thune - There's not a lot of ways to gain life in the deck (i count 3: SoLaS, serra ascendant, and i guess stp in a pinch) but she does seem so must-answer.
norn/gisela - if I was to cut one (which I think I will) I'd probably cut gisela. Norn provides some immediate impact by wiping their x/2s and works better at boosting 1/1s.
Adds:
grand abolisher - maybe? But I don't see counterspells as an issue for this deck so much as wipes. I guess it makes flickering ward synergy more reliable though.
EDIT: so far, the cuts have been:
gisela
mirran crusader
krenko
lightning mauler
Mark of Fury seems pretty good with Anax and Cymede. Sure, haste is redundant after A&C's first turn on the board, but it's a 1-mana re-usable pump spell with them, and you can give something else haste if you need to. Fiery Mantle and Brilliant Halo are the red and white cousins to Rancor, so they might have some merit too. Could also use Auratog for shenanigans with them. After a few casts on A&C and eating the auras, attack with your massive trampling Auratog.
I'm running a human overrun deck in Gahiji right now and it's a lot of fun. If you want to stick to aggro that's great; if not the list also includes a couple WR combos that fit very easily into human aggro lists that you might want to consider. Link in sig.
One thing that has won me one game, and almost a second, is Sunforger -> Tears of Rage. Even just using it to eliminate problem players and finishing off your better matchups afterward is extremely valuable.
One of the early mistakes I made with the deck is having too many cards that took advantage of creature hordes and not enough cards that actually generate good numbers of creatures. If you're going in the human direction, Geist-Honored Monk, Rakka Mar & Evangel of Heliod are good in terms of creature value. Maybe consider cutting some of the worse anthem effects like Honor of the Pure and Accorder Paladin, which don't do quite as much work in a 40 life format. How has Five Alarm Fire worked for you? It seems like it could be okay, but I haven't found myself scrambling to play it.
Mark of Fury seems pretty good with Anax and Cymede. Sure, haste is redundant after A&C's first turn on the board, but it's a 1-mana re-usable pump spell with them, and you can give something else haste if you need to. Fiery Mantle and Brilliant Halo are the red and white cousins to Rancor, so they might have some merit too. Could also use Auratog for shenanigans with them. After a few casts on A&C and eating the auras, attack with your massive trampling Auratog.
I considered going an auramancer route for this deck with bouncy/recurring auras, but I think it's a little too slow for what I want to do. Especially the rancor-style enchantments seem subpar since I need A&C to die to get them back. I'd rather run cantripping enchantments. Mark of Fury is decent and I did consider it, but I think I'd rather have flickering ward-type cards that can turn into repeatable overruns in the late-game, instead of mini-overruns. It's still solid, though.
On a side note, I forgot the best synergy with archangel of thune - jitte. And jitte is imminently tutorable. So for now I think archangel's place is secure, especially considering the synergy is even better with first strike (or, god forbid, double strike).
Goldfishing is going pretty well, I do wish I had a little more on the low end of the curve, though.
reconnaissance - I'm thinking that this deck should be aggro enough that vigilance won't be necessary. It would be nice with fumiko. The option to fake-out an attack is nice but I'm not sure if it merits a card or not. It would be really funny with stonehewer giant though.
seething anger - thought about it, seems subpar to flickering ward though.
assemble the legion - hmm, i forgot about this one. I like that it's an enchantment, for sure. I'll think about it.
rise of the hobgoblins - Sort of expensive for the 1/1s alone, the FS is nice but it seems better defensively than offensively.
leonin sun standard - I think I'd rather abuse the commander for the trample. Maybe, but there's a lot of good anthems available.
angel of jubilation - decent anthem but my 4 drop spot is pretty crowded.
balefire liege - I'd like it a lot more if I cast more red spells. Gaining the life is mostly lame (unless I have thune out, obv). And mostly it's +1/+1 for everyone.
gideon's avenger - I do like him, but I'm not sure how reliably he'll actually get pumped.
instigator gang - seems hard to flip.
nobilis of war - this was a tough cut. Again, there's a lot of anthem effects.
faith's reward - boros charm seems better. and it works a lot better off sunforger.
rootborn defenses - hmm, maybe but it's also a less-flexible boros charm.
I have no problem with it, personally. And if people do have a problem with it, whatever, suck it up, I'll be playing a new deck in a few weeks anyway. BUT I have a hard time building around it conceptually for this deck, because it's RW. If it was RWB, I could build all-out aggro, tutor for geddon on turn 4-5, and rely on my aggressive start to kill people before they recover. BUT it's straight RW, which means I'm mostly hoping to topdeck that MLD if I want it. So if I build a pure aggro deck with most everything in the 1-4 range, and don't get it, then I'm having problems with reach. If I include more bombs with larger price tags and/or mana sinks, then geddon hurts me too much. Same deal with mana rocks. They're great with MLD, but if I don't get it, then I wasted time ramping in an "aggro" deck.
If I wanted to use MLD I think I'd want to have black, so I could build around having it reliably. In straight RW, though, it seems risky to build around it if I can't get it very frequently/quickly.
Also, this deck wants to love sunforger uncontrollably, and MLD gets in the way of that.
reconnaissance - I'm thinking that this deck should be aggro enough that vigilance won't be necessary. It would be nice with fumiko. The option to fake-out an attack is nice but I'm not sure if it merits a card or not. It would be really funny with stonehewer giant though.
seething anger - thought about it, seems subpar to flickering ward though.
assemble the legion - hmm, i forgot about this one. I like that it's an enchantment, for sure. I'll think about it.
rise of the hobgoblins - Sort of expensive for the 1/1s alone, the FS is nice but it seems better defensively than offensively.
leonin sun standard - I think I'd rather abuse the commander for the trample. Maybe, but there's a lot of good anthems available.
angel of jubilation - decent anthem but my 4 drop spot is pretty crowded.
balefire liege - I'd like it a lot more if I cast more red spells. Gaining the life is mostly lame (unless I have thune out, obv). And mostly it's +1/+1 for everyone.
gideon's avenger - I do like him, but I'm not sure how reliably he'll actually get pumped.
instigator gang - seems hard to flip.
nobilis of war - this was a tough cut. Again, there's a lot of anthem effects.
faith's reward - boros charm seems better. and it works a lot better off sunforger.
rootborn defenses - hmm, maybe but it's also a less-flexible boros charm.
Well, for the defensive cards, it's all about backup. A deck like this hates wrath effects, so it helps to add in multiple ways to keep your stuff through them. Having just one card in a hundred card deck for the purpose is unreasonably optimistic. Plus Faith's Reward is GREAT after something that kills more than creatures. I had a guy cast Obliterate and then watched his draw drop as I used my floated mana. I have 5 of the effect in my deck, which helps increase my odds of having one when I need it.
And for Reconnaissance, the real benefit is that you can go truly aggro. As long as it's in play, you can attack with everything you have every turn, without fear of losing any creatures. Does your opponent have a bunch of deathtouch? Who cares?! lol
[quote from="TheDrB" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/549165-can-aggro-work-in-edh-i-dont-know-but-anax-and?comment=9"]
I considered a lot of these, let me see...
seething anger - thought about it, seems subpar to flickering ward though.
Maybe not that applicable, but what goes for seething anger is that you can fetch it with Sunforger.
Is Anax and Cymede just for the colors? I see almost no means with which to activate the heroic in this deck.
Edit: because I am worried this post sounds very negative/dickish, I so want to point out that I appreciate the aggro RDW style of deck, and I have a huge soft-spot in my heart for decks that run a Sunforger package, so I want to impart that I am truly asking in order to either become educated myself or help advance your decklist.
Also edit: because I don't see a lot of upside to A/C as a general with this list, would perhaps Aurelia be a suitable replacement? It would not give you another in-curve aggro drop in the same way, but it provides enormous upside as a constant threat from the command zone.
IMO you would be better off with Tajic, Blade of the Legion as a general with the Sunforger package and an army of aggro dudes. I actually went a slightly different route myself with Tajic in that I suit him up with equipment when he is in play then starting blowing up stuff with Wrath of God and similar spells. I also have lots of man-lands like Mutavault and Ghitu Encampment to help trigger his battalion even after board wipes. It's a fun deck even when Sunforger doesn't come online but I also have a solid tutor package with those cards you already have mentioned so it has some flexibility.
A tale of two Elspeths: Sun's Champion seems quite good, with two useful effects pre-ultimate. But Knight Errant seems fairly poor/underwhelming for you. A 1/1 soldier each turn is barely, if at all significant, and the 3 damage and evasion is not particularly sexy either. All tied to a card with a HUGE target painted on it because of the ultimate. This seems almost like running a 4-mana fog, which is not ideal.
I feel as if perhaps a card with similar downside but waaaaay more realistic upside would be Luminarch Ascension. Both are cards that reward your opponents for hitting you, but one is cheaper, directly advances your goal, similarly protects/reinforces you against board wipe, and will, you know, actually work from time to time. Idk, maybe consider it?
@theDrB - sure, but my real goal is to recur the charm off sunforger. I mean, if my goal is to draw it even 3 isn't very many.
I might try to figure out a spot for reconnaissance since I do like it. I first played it in a sunforger deck...probably 5 years ago now?
@SavageFreeze - yeah he's fine but nothing amazing.
@Moxnix - maybe, it does provide some reach I guess.
@Ebur0n - you cannot. It is a sorcery.
flickering ward, however, you totally can, via enlightened tutor.
@MrCoupon - I did originally want to abuse them more, but spots got tight so ultimately it's mostly about flickering ward (and a few smaller effects). In my defense, though, it is tutorable.
Aurelia is also reasonable although I don't like how big a target she has on her head, especially for purposes of carrying swords and whatnot.
@kinematik - Meh, don't like tajic. My 4 drop spot is already pretty full and I find him boring. I'm not, like, THRILLED with A&C but I want to build a RW deck and they're probably my favorite. And they've been good to me in limited.
clamp and sofi are already in, mask might find room. The others don't fit imo.
@MrCoupon (again) - Possibly, but I don't like luminarch ascension very much. It has a habit of making the game all about itself. I can't say I've seen elspeth draw the same amount of hate.
Plus, Elspeth makes people beat on ELSPETH until she's dead. Ascension either forces enchantment removal or makes people beat on YOU until you're dead. Big difference.
That said, with the vigilance and sunforger and whatnot I feel like I could defend either. I probably wouldn't replace elspeth though, she's rarely killed by boardwipes and she provides me a way to recover from them if necessary.
@MrCoupon - I did originally want to abuse them more, but spots got tight so ultimately it's mostly about flickering ward (and a few smaller effects). In my defense, though, it is tutorable.
Aurelia is also reasonable although I don't like how big a target she has on her head, especially for purposes of carrying swords and whatnot.
@MrCoupon (again) - Possibly, but I don't like luminarch ascension very much. It has a habit of making the game all about itself. I can't say I've seen elspeth draw the same amount of hate.
Plus, Elspeth makes people beat on ELSPETH until she's dead. Ascension either forces enchantment removal or makes people beat on YOU until you're dead. Big difference.
That said, with the vigilance and sunforger and whatnot I feel like I could defend either. I probably wouldn't replace elspeth though, she's rarely killed by boardwipes and she provides me a way to recover from them if necessary.
On the first point, Aurelia's haste helps a lot to deal with the target she has on herself. If you are worried about the target she painst on you, then there is always the versatility of attacking in, untapping, attacking in with only select creatures (probably Aurelia herself) on combat #2, and using her as pseudo-vigilance for your team until you find an opening to all-in some poor fool.
Regardless of Aurelia, however, the limited number of spells that interact favorable with A&C simply leads me to think there are probably better options to hang out in your command zone. Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran is kinda crappy, but he does advance your gameplan (although I think you do too much straight for him to help too much). Tajic, Blade of the Legion hits awfully hard, and can commander damage people out. Probably would want more sources of evansion if you retooled for him, though. Brion Stoutarm is pretty solid for you, providing some reach and life gain. Wish he had vigilance. He also stays on a good, aggressive curve, and makes blocking far less profitable.
"Plus, Elspeth makes people beat on ELSPETH until she's dead. Ascension either forces enchantment removal or makes people beat on YOU until you're dead. Big difference."
I largely disagree. Elspeth makes people beat Elspeth until she is dead, yes. Ascension comes down turn two, and only needs to find one table rotation of respite to start making tokens. Addtionally, needing it to make people kill you (40 damage) is FAR superior to Elspeth (5 damage). Additionally, Elsepth all but forces people's hand. Ascension suggests profitably forcing through a point of damage. But players can draw enchantment removal, they cannot draw emblem removal, so allowing Ascension to get online is not nuclear by any stretch. It's simply an efficient card that is far undercosted for its effect in a multiplayer game.
"That said, with the vigilance and sunforger and whatnot I feel like I could defend either."
I guess I don't know your meta, but I have never, once, a single time seen Elspeth get defended. Ever.
"I probably wouldn't replace elspeth though, she's rarely killed by boardwipes and she provides me a way to recover from them if necessary."
Replacing or not replacing her is certainly your prerogative, it is your deck. However, for the sake of discussing which card is better, or if Knight Errant is worth running, Ascension is also rarely killed by board wipes (Austere Command and Akroma's Vengeance come to mind), and unlike Elspeth, it actually does help you recover from a board wipe. Going from an empty board to a board with a single 1/1 is so marginal that I don't consider that an improvement. Going from an empty board to 2-3 4/4 fliers, on the other hand, with the threat of more each turn, is how you actually recover. Also, if someone wipes your board, good luck defending Elspeth. It'll take more than a 1/1 per turn...
Ok, whoa, chill out a bit, the meta I'm playing this for is fairly casual and I intend to replace this deck with something else after a few weeks anyway (as I do with every deck that isn't zirilan of the claw. Though I'll retain the decklist and maybe update it). So I'm probably going to leave out luminarch ascension primarily because it's an annoying card and makes the game aggressively boring and linear. Whenever I've played it in the past, in otherwise interesting, varied decks, as soon as it's active the game becomes "well, I COULD cast all these interesting, fun spells in my hand, but that would be stupid because none of them are as efficient as a 4/4 flyer for 2 with no card loss, so I guess I'll just dump a bunch of stupid angels on the field. AGAIN."
Unless elspeth is close to ultimating I've rarely seen her draw a ton of hate since, as you say, she's not a huge threat. And direct removal for her is pretty rare since most people don't like burn. The +3/+3 is totally relevant for jumping in for general damage, especially with a sword attached. And her ultimate isn't THAT devastating unless it's followed up with obliterate or something. Sure, your kitchen table deck is going to have a hard time if it can't boardwipe or get past blockers, but your top-tier decks would hardly notice, barring the aforementioned oblit/geddon. And I think you're kind of missing the key part of elspeth where, if she dies, you don't lose the game. If the table teams up to gank you before luminarch activates, then you're out more than just a single card. And I know I've sat comfortably, enchantment removal in hand, encouraging a table to beat the crap out of the guy playing luminarch ascension.
As far as the other RW commanders, I mostly think they're boring. Aurelia is ok. Gisela is ok. A&C are kind of cool, and at least they're low on the curve and have FS, which every self-respecting RW legend ought to have. All the rest are dull. Even the 3 exceptions are kind of mediocre compared to what other colors get, but I can respect the challenge. Still, I'm waiting for the stonehewer giant legend before I really commit to RW.
Had you considered Contested War Zone? I use it in my Mono-Blue Aggro EDH. It's quite handy for pushing a few extra points through, and it only gets better with larger armies.
I think someone above mentioned Assemble the Legion. Are you still on the fence about it?
Thoughts on Goku and Student of Warfare?
Is Fabled Hero not good enough to make the cut? I would have thought that he'd be a brick house with a little Flickering Ward action. Then again, you did cut Mirran Crusader and it would be competing for your general's CMC slot.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Contested war zone seems a little too silly for me. And in playtesting my deck is very color hungry, so I really run colorless lands at a premium. To the point that I'm considering cutting some of them, and I only run 5.
Assemble the legion I may try. I like the persistence through a wipe. I dislike how slow it is, though, it takes at least 4 turns before it really starts to pay off.
Not a huge fan of rise of the hobgoblins. I've played it in other forger decks, and I don't love tapping out on my turn. I'd probably rather play decree of justice or something.
I do like archetype (courage, at least, my general sorta covers aggression) but I feel like it sets me up for bad blowouts vs well-timed removal. If it was a 2-drop, for sure, but at 3 it's competing with my commander, and it doesn't stack up well against my 4-drops at all.
I think I'll probably switch champion of the parish for student of warfare or figure or reconnaissance. Right now i'm testing recon since it's the weirdest.
since my general is generally around, I didn't feel like using more heroic guys. I don't think the DSers are going to be able to compete with some of the other options at 3-4, but I could be wrong. Mirran crusader was a late cut, so I do WANT to run them, especially with swords. but it's hard to find room. The more I think about it, the more I want crusader too, ha, since he can easily get through vs G/B players to proc swords. Especially with trample or sword protections. Blurg, too many good options...
1 Iroas, God of Victory
Creatures (34)
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Goblin Welder
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Mother of Runes
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Auriok Steelshaper
1 Leonin Shikari
1 Precinct Captain
1 Puresteel Paladin
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Eidolon of Countless Battles
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Fumiko the Lowblood
1 Goldnight Commander
1 Hellrider
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Odric, Master Tactician
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Stonehewer Giant
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sun Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Land Tax
1 Quest for the Holy Relic
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Five-Alarm Fire
1 Cathar's Crusade
Sorceries (2)
1 Steelshaper's gift
1 Retribution of the Meek
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Artifacts (10)
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol ring
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sunforger
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Instants (10)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tithe
1 Boros Charm
1 Dawn Charm
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Chaos Warp
1 Oblation
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Sunhome, fortress of the legion
1 Kher Keep
1 Slayer's Stronghold
1 Great Furnace
1 Ancient Den
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plateau
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
5 Mountain
8 Plains
How it works:
Most of the 1-4 drop creatures are among the aggroest little bastards to ever exist. Especially at the 4-drop slot, things start getting pretty dangerous. With A&C as a reliable 3-drop, and a way to mini-overrun, you can get in lots of early damage before anyone stabilizes.
Eventually, this being EDH, things will probably stabilize. At this point, you've got some good options. Firstly, lots of your dudes scale well into the late-game - dudes like dragonmaster outcast, krenko, mikaeus, etc get more powerful the longer the game goes on. Second, the deck has some pretty stellar game-enders, like elesh norn, elspeth III, aurelia, gisela, cathar's crusade, etc. And last, but not least, you've got the greatest gift that wizards ever saw fit to bestow on RW:
There's a lot of tutors for it in the deck (enlightened tutor, steelshaper's gift, stoneforge mystic, stonehewer giant, Quest for the holy relic, and godo), and lots of good stuff to do once you've got it. The best part is mistveil plains, which is easily gettable off either sunforger via tithe, or via any fetch that can get plains. Then you can keep recurring removal, repeatedly fog with dawn charm, protect your field from wipes with boros charm, go get more equipment with enlightened tutor, etc. This gives you some real reach into the late-game.
You may notice that my lands are a bit short, because I had a hell of a time making cuts. So the #1 thing I need help with is cutting some stuff.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And adding Idyllic Tutor and at least four more lands.
Second of all, looking at the potential cut list from Lark...For sure dump the DMaster Outcast. Krenko...you don't run enough other goblins to get the most utility out of him. Serra Ascendant, Norn and Gisela are must keeps I think. The rest are things you could probably dump. I'd consider replacing those cards with more token generation (if it's goblins you can then keep Krenko).
You also need a Grand Abolisher.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Anyway, looking at the cuts that were mentioned:
champion of the parish - He's obviously part of the aggro gameplan, he's not a good draw late-game, but since most of my creatures are humans he can get quite a few counters pretty quickly. Unfortunately human tokens are pretty few and far between, so the human count is 22, although ofc A&C are always available. So on average I could expect it to be about a 4/4 by turn 4. I dunno, that's not amazing or anything, I don't want to dilute my 1-drop spot too much though, and it's hard to find 1-drops that don't suck in the p/t department.
dragonmaster outcast - i'm curious why neither of you seem to like this guy? I haven't used him yet, but besides being fragile he seems like a massive amount of threat for 1 mana. And he comes out early to get in some damage, especially if I get some global pumps going.
serra ascendant - I'm seriously very confused by this one. It's a 6/6 for 1. It's probably the most efficiently costed beater in the format. Why would you ever consider cutting this in an aggro deck?
spikeshot elder - Sort of like outcast, I like him because he's a body early, and a potential threat late. Mostly I think his value comes from the fact that I want to get sunforger every game, making him a potential beacon of destruction on a stick. He's also decent with pumps from A&N (although admittedly the deck is a bit low on those in this incarnation, outside of the flickering ward). I know he's not great in a very aggro gameplan, but I feel like he's reach + a body. Maybe he's not enough reach, I guess it depends how reliably I can throw some equipment on him.
Accorder paladin - this guy is more like champion, on the aggro plan. You don't think he's worth running? I guess it depends how many bodies I can get on the field, but as a pseudo-anthem with 3 power for 2, I feel like he's really strong for early damage. Although with the relatively low number of A&C enablers it might be hard to keep him alive.
lightning mauler - I'm thinking maybe I think this guy is better than he is, just because he's unlikely to get decoupled, and that 1-toughness is a liability.
Precinct captain - He's not especially gifted with p/t, but a 2/2 fs is reasonably hard to block in the early game, and 2-mana token producers are pretty few and far between. I guess it depends on how reliably he can find someone open is. Definitely with fumiko he seems like an all-star. I want a fairly high density of 2-drops to fit into the curve with A&C is the main thing. I like him reasonably on the defense since he can make a 5-damage fs wall with A&C on the defense, and craps out tokens for pumps on the offense (hopefully). Compare to, for example, brimaz - brimaz is definitely strong, but it means I'm either playing A&C on turn 4, or I'm playing him turn 4...he just fits much more awkwardly into my curve.
goldnight commander - I don't love this guy, but for a 4-drop I feel like he can do absurd things. I guess he needs to trigger twice per turn to really make sense. With the number of creatures I'm running I can probably reliably get at least 1 a turn, so that's decent...cards he actually synergizes with, there's dmaster, precinct captain, brimaz, recruiter, hero of bladehold (ridiculously), krenko (ditto), ranger of eos, sun titan, kher keep, both elspeths, SoLaS...12 cards? That's not bad, especially since he gets so nuts with some of them. I dunno, maybe I'll cut him but I think he at least deserves testing.
hero of oxid ridge - another guy who's sort of dependent on how well the early-game is going...I sorta want to cut him but he seems like he could bring a lot of pain on turn 4.
krenko - Erg, I think I should probably cut him. He's probably too slow. He is sort of a must-answer threat at 4, but compared to hero of bladehold or other 4-drops he's not exactly aggro.
archangel of thune - There's not a lot of ways to gain life in the deck (i count 3: SoLaS, serra ascendant, and i guess stp in a pinch) but she does seem so must-answer.
norn/gisela - if I was to cut one (which I think I will) I'd probably cut gisela. Norn provides some immediate impact by wiping their x/2s and works better at boosting 1/1s.
Adds:
grand abolisher - maybe? But I don't see counterspells as an issue for this deck so much as wipes. I guess it makes flickering ward synergy more reliable though.
EDIT: so far, the cuts have been:
gisela
mirran crusader
krenko
lightning mauler
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
One thing that has won me one game, and almost a second, is Sunforger -> Tears of Rage. Even just using it to eliminate problem players and finishing off your better matchups afterward is extremely valuable.
One of the early mistakes I made with the deck is having too many cards that took advantage of creature hordes and not enough cards that actually generate good numbers of creatures. If you're going in the human direction, Geist-Honored Monk, Rakka Mar & Evangel of Heliod are good in terms of creature value. Maybe consider cutting some of the worse anthem effects like Honor of the Pure and Accorder Paladin, which don't do quite as much work in a 40 life format. How has Five Alarm Fire worked for you? It seems like it could be okay, but I haven't found myself scrambling to play it.
Speaking of human tribal, why not Angel of Glory's Rise?
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
I considered going an auramancer route for this deck with bouncy/recurring auras, but I think it's a little too slow for what I want to do. Especially the rancor-style enchantments seem subpar since I need A&C to die to get them back. I'd rather run cantripping enchantments. Mark of Fury is decent and I did consider it, but I think I'd rather have flickering ward-type cards that can turn into repeatable overruns in the late-game, instead of mini-overruns. It's still solid, though.
On a side note, I forgot the best synergy with archangel of thune - jitte. And jitte is imminently tutorable. So for now I think archangel's place is secure, especially considering the synergy is even better with first strike (or, god forbid, double strike).
Goldfishing is going pretty well, I do wish I had a little more on the low end of the curve, though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Reconnaissance - probably the single BEST card for any white aggro deck - attack with no fear + pseudo vigilance for 1 mana seems pretty good
Seething Anger
Assemble the Legion
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Leonin Sun Standard
Angel of Jubilation
Balefire Liege
Gideon's Avenger
Instigator Gang
Nobilis of War
Faith's Reward
Rootborn Defenses
I considered a lot of these, let me see...
reconnaissance - I'm thinking that this deck should be aggro enough that vigilance won't be necessary. It would be nice with fumiko. The option to fake-out an attack is nice but I'm not sure if it merits a card or not. It would be really funny with stonehewer giant though.
seething anger - thought about it, seems subpar to flickering ward though.
assemble the legion - hmm, i forgot about this one. I like that it's an enchantment, for sure. I'll think about it.
rise of the hobgoblins - Sort of expensive for the 1/1s alone, the FS is nice but it seems better defensively than offensively.
leonin sun standard - I think I'd rather abuse the commander for the trample. Maybe, but there's a lot of good anthems available.
angel of jubilation - decent anthem but my 4 drop spot is pretty crowded.
balefire liege - I'd like it a lot more if I cast more red spells. Gaining the life is mostly lame (unless I have thune out, obv). And mostly it's +1/+1 for everyone.
gideon's avenger - I do like him, but I'm not sure how reliably he'll actually get pumped.
instigator gang - seems hard to flip.
nobilis of war - this was a tough cut. Again, there's a lot of anthem effects.
faith's reward - boros charm seems better. and it works a lot better off sunforger.
rootborn defenses - hmm, maybe but it's also a less-flexible boros charm.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I was testing the power couple from the beginning.
Build up a board state, drop a couple artifact that produced coloured mana, and start hammering and dropping little guys with big swords.
I built several Boros decks using all the big generals and none of them were competitive until I added MLD.
WUGDerevi Voltron AttritionWUG
WGRMayael of the Cheated CreaturesWGR
I have no problem with it, personally. And if people do have a problem with it, whatever, suck it up, I'll be playing a new deck in a few weeks anyway. BUT I have a hard time building around it conceptually for this deck, because it's RW. If it was RWB, I could build all-out aggro, tutor for geddon on turn 4-5, and rely on my aggressive start to kill people before they recover. BUT it's straight RW, which means I'm mostly hoping to topdeck that MLD if I want it. So if I build a pure aggro deck with most everything in the 1-4 range, and don't get it, then I'm having problems with reach. If I include more bombs with larger price tags and/or mana sinks, then geddon hurts me too much. Same deal with mana rocks. They're great with MLD, but if I don't get it, then I wasted time ramping in an "aggro" deck.
If I wanted to use MLD I think I'd want to have black, so I could build around having it reliably. In straight RW, though, it seems risky to build around it if I can't get it very frequently/quickly.
Also, this deck wants to love sunforger uncontrollably, and MLD gets in the way of that.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Well, for the defensive cards, it's all about backup. A deck like this hates wrath effects, so it helps to add in multiple ways to keep your stuff through them. Having just one card in a hundred card deck for the purpose is unreasonably optimistic. Plus Faith's Reward is GREAT after something that kills more than creatures. I had a guy cast Obliterate and then watched his draw drop as I used my floated mana. I have 5 of the effect in my deck, which helps increase my odds of having one when I need it.
And for Reconnaissance, the real benefit is that you can go truly aggro. As long as it's in play, you can attack with everything you have every turn, without fear of losing any creatures. Does your opponent have a bunch of deathtouch? Who cares?! lol
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Maybe not that applicable, but what goes for seething anger is that you can fetch it with Sunforger.
Edit: because I am worried this post sounds very negative/dickish, I so want to point out that I appreciate the aggro RDW style of deck, and I have a huge soft-spot in my heart for decks that run a Sunforger package, so I want to impart that I am truly asking in order to either become educated myself or help advance your decklist.
Also edit: because I don't see a lot of upside to A/C as a general with this list, would perhaps Aurelia be a suitable replacement? It would not give you another in-curve aggro drop in the same way, but it provides enormous upside as a constant threat from the command zone.
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
The main thing Boros lacks is card draw, so Skullclamp and Sword of Fire and Ice is obviously a necessity and I also like Mask of Memory along with Crystal Ball which isn't quite the same but it helps smooth out draws. Staff of Nin or Tower of Fortunes is another option but they are costly and slow.
I feel as if perhaps a card with similar downside but waaaaay more realistic upside would be Luminarch Ascension. Both are cards that reward your opponents for hitting you, but one is cheaper, directly advances your goal, similarly protects/reinforces you against board wipe, and will, you know, actually work from time to time. Idk, maybe consider it?
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
I might try to figure out a spot for reconnaissance since I do like it. I first played it in a sunforger deck...probably 5 years ago now?
@SavageFreeze - yeah he's fine but nothing amazing.
@Moxnix - maybe, it does provide some reach I guess.
@Ebur0n - you cannot. It is a sorcery.
flickering ward, however, you totally can, via enlightened tutor.
@MrCoupon - I did originally want to abuse them more, but spots got tight so ultimately it's mostly about flickering ward (and a few smaller effects). In my defense, though, it is tutorable.
Aurelia is also reasonable although I don't like how big a target she has on her head, especially for purposes of carrying swords and whatnot.
@kinematik - Meh, don't like tajic. My 4 drop spot is already pretty full and I find him boring. I'm not, like, THRILLED with A&C but I want to build a RW deck and they're probably my favorite. And they've been good to me in limited.
clamp and sofi are already in, mask might find room. The others don't fit imo.
@MrCoupon (again) - Possibly, but I don't like luminarch ascension very much. It has a habit of making the game all about itself. I can't say I've seen elspeth draw the same amount of hate.
Plus, Elspeth makes people beat on ELSPETH until she's dead. Ascension either forces enchantment removal or makes people beat on YOU until you're dead. Big difference.
That said, with the vigilance and sunforger and whatnot I feel like I could defend either. I probably wouldn't replace elspeth though, she's rarely killed by boardwipes and she provides me a way to recover from them if necessary.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
On the first point, Aurelia's haste helps a lot to deal with the target she has on herself. If you are worried about the target she painst on you, then there is always the versatility of attacking in, untapping, attacking in with only select creatures (probably Aurelia herself) on combat #2, and using her as pseudo-vigilance for your team until you find an opening to all-in some poor fool.
Regardless of Aurelia, however, the limited number of spells that interact favorable with A&C simply leads me to think there are probably better options to hang out in your command zone. Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran is kinda crappy, but he does advance your gameplan (although I think you do too much straight
"Plus, Elspeth makes people beat on ELSPETH until she's dead. Ascension either forces enchantment removal or makes people beat on YOU until you're dead. Big difference."
I largely disagree. Elspeth makes people beat Elspeth until she is dead, yes. Ascension comes down turn two, and only needs to find one table rotation of respite to start making tokens. Addtionally, needing it to make people kill you (40 damage) is FAR superior to Elspeth (5 damage). Additionally, Elsepth all but forces people's hand. Ascension suggests profitably forcing through a point of damage. But players can draw enchantment removal, they cannot draw emblem removal, so allowing Ascension to get online is not nuclear by any stretch. It's simply an efficient card that is far undercosted for its effect in a multiplayer game.
"That said, with the vigilance and sunforger and whatnot I feel like I could defend either."
I guess I don't know your meta, but I have never, once, a single time seen Elspeth get defended. Ever.
"I probably wouldn't replace elspeth though, she's rarely killed by boardwipes and she provides me a way to recover from them if necessary."
Replacing or not replacing her is certainly your prerogative, it is your deck. However, for the sake of discussing which card is better, or if Knight Errant is worth running, Ascension is also rarely killed by board wipes (Austere Command and Akroma's Vengeance come to mind), and unlike Elspeth, it actually does help you recover from a board wipe. Going from an empty board to a board with a single 1/1 is so marginal that I don't consider that an improvement. Going from an empty board to 2-3 4/4 fliers, on the other hand, with the threat of more each turn, is how you actually recover. Also, if someone wipes your board, good luck defending Elspeth. It'll take more than a 1/1 per turn...
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
Unless elspeth is close to ultimating I've rarely seen her draw a ton of hate since, as you say, she's not a huge threat. And direct removal for her is pretty rare since most people don't like burn. The +3/+3 is totally relevant for jumping in for general damage, especially with a sword attached. And her ultimate isn't THAT devastating unless it's followed up with obliterate or something. Sure, your kitchen table deck is going to have a hard time if it can't boardwipe or get past blockers, but your top-tier decks would hardly notice, barring the aforementioned oblit/geddon. And I think you're kind of missing the key part of elspeth where, if she dies, you don't lose the game. If the table teams up to gank you before luminarch activates, then you're out more than just a single card. And I know I've sat comfortably, enchantment removal in hand, encouraging a table to beat the crap out of the guy playing luminarch ascension.
As far as the other RW commanders, I mostly think they're boring. Aurelia is ok. Gisela is ok. A&C are kind of cool, and at least they're low on the curve and have FS, which every self-respecting RW legend ought to have. All the rest are dull. Even the 3 exceptions are kind of mediocre compared to what other colors get, but I can respect the challenge. Still, I'm waiting for the stonehewer giant legend before I really commit to RW.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I think someone above mentioned Assemble the Legion. Are you still on the fence about it?
If you like Rise of the Hobgoblins for the FS ability, you're probably love Archetype of Courage. Not so great that it's an enchantment creature, but it's an insane set of abilities. Archetype of Aggression is less amazing, but still pretty strong.
Thoughts on Goku and Student of Warfare?
Is Fabled Hero not good enough to make the cut? I would have thought that he'd be a brick house with a little Flickering Ward action. Then again, you did cut Mirran Crusader and it would be competing for your general's CMC slot.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Assemble the legion I may try. I like the persistence through a wipe. I dislike how slow it is, though, it takes at least 4 turns before it really starts to pay off.
Not a huge fan of rise of the hobgoblins. I've played it in other forger decks, and I don't love tapping out on my turn. I'd probably rather play decree of justice or something.
I do like archetype (courage, at least, my general sorta covers aggression) but I feel like it sets me up for bad blowouts vs well-timed removal. If it was a 2-drop, for sure, but at 3 it's competing with my commander, and it doesn't stack up well against my 4-drops at all.
I think I'll probably switch champion of the parish for student of warfare or figure or reconnaissance. Right now i'm testing recon since it's the weirdest.
since my general is generally around, I didn't feel like using more heroic guys. I don't think the DSers are going to be able to compete with some of the other options at 3-4, but I could be wrong. Mirran crusader was a late cut, so I do WANT to run them, especially with swords. but it's hard to find room. The more I think about it, the more I want crusader too, ha, since he can easily get through vs G/B players to proc swords. Especially with trample or sword protections. Blurg, too many good options...
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6