Sorry, I actually felt it was a fairly measured response. Didn't mean to come across as hostile or amped up.
Whenever I've played it in the past, in otherwise interesting, varied decks, as soon as it's active the game becomes "well, I COULD cast all these interesting, fun spells in my hand, but that would be stupid because none of them are as efficient as a 4/4 flyer for 2 with no card loss, so I guess I'll just dump a bunch of stupid angels on the field. AGAIN."
That's fine. If your reasoning against playing a card is not based on how good the card is, whether in a vacuum or the specific deck, that is fine. I was responding to reasons you listed as to how it was inferior to Elspeth. I found that reasoning to be faulty. That is why I said it is your prerogative to build the deck as you see fit, but you must understand that discussion about your deck will take place outside of the parameters in your head, so for the sake of card discussion, I will adequately analyze and juxtapose specific cards. It is also to the benefit of the viewers of the thread to know that certain cards are left out for personal, not performace-based reasons.
The +3/+3 is totally relevant for jumping in for general damage, especially with a sword attached. And her ultimate isn't THAT devastating unless it's followed up with obliterate or something.
If you don't see Elspeth's ultimate as being all that powerful and are using her mainly for the pump, perhaps it is a slot better served as an equipment such as Argentum Armor (high curve, admittedly, but devastating once active), Batterskull (slightly higher curve than Elspeth, but very powerful, survives wipes, protects itself from spot removal, adds +4 power instead of +3), Sword of the Paruns (buffs all your attackers, which is nice), Loxodon Warhammer (+3 power, lifelink, and evasion), Quietus Spike (all types of nasty if it connects, especially with a 2x striker), or Sword of Feast and Famine (best sword in EDH, bar none) given your propensity to fetch equipment?
And I think you're kind of missing the key part of elspeth where, if she dies, you don't lose the game. If the table teams up to gank you before luminarch activates, then you're out more than just a single card.
I am not. I find it relatively incomrehensible that a game in which multiple people are playing with essentially the legacy banned list , Luminarch Ascension is the biggest threat (especially to the point where they decide the owner simply has to die, because no one can come up with a disenchant effect). There are a few different scenarios here. If you play Ascension with no board presence and opponents who all have attackers, you are a fool and deserve to die. If you play Ascension against a crowded board state, opponents are forced to alpha strike into you to stop it, allowing you to cherry pick their best creatures. In those crowded game states, you are also much more likely to encounter a sweeper, which is money in the bank with Ascension out. Against a sparse board, Ascension forces players to use their limited board presence to attack into you, and so long as you are not completely undefended (again, see "fool: deserve to die") you can choose when to get hit and when it is profitable to defend. So in neutral board states, Ascension is pretty solid.
If you are ahead on the board, as an aggro deck better be off the bat, Ascension is golden. Because of your board presence, you can choose to either pressure your opponents, giving them the choice to accept the damage in order to fire back against your enchantment, or you can play the waiting game and make them try to break your defenses. Either way, Asension does a wonderful job of supplementing an early aggro strategy, because if someone wipes your board, now your Ascension will come online. If they do not wipe your board, you get to beat face with your dudes and roll with plan A.
If you are behind on the board, Ascension is not good, unless you can manage to defend it just enough to get it active. But then again, almost none of the cards on your list, aside from maybe Dragonmaster Outcast or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite carry as much potential to recover from being well behind on the board than Ascension.
I will stop defending Luminarch Ascension if you stop attacking it on the basis of its usefulness to success in a game of Magic. If it is simply a personal feud with the card, that's all gravy in the navy.
Have you considered trying cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Hokori, Dust Drinker to attack your opponents manabase so they cannot hit you with sweepers? That to me is the biggest weak link in most EDH aggro decks (vulnerability to board sweepers), and must be addressed by one means or another. Those guys are at least creatures and flow in your gameplan a little better/are less hateful than the Armageddon, Ruination, Global Ruin type cards.
Honestly I would say in my current meta that Ascension would probably be among the higher threats on the table. I've played with a lot of different groups but this one is fairly casual.
If I was playing to win at all costs, then I'd just play the usual pantheon of hermit druid/doomsday/ad nauseam (or my personal brew, child of alara). My goal for every deck is essentially to come up with a vision for what I want the deck to do, and see how well I can execute that vision, and ideally win with it. For example, smokestack is certainly a good card (especially with assemble the legion) but that's not part of the vision I have for the deck. Ultimately you have to draw the line somewhere between performance and style, or we'd ALL be playing hermit druid.
Especially with my current model for building decks, I generally keep it together for 3-4 weeks before building something new. I don't want to waste games re-learning how boring luminarch ascension is - I want to do something with this deck that I haven't done before.
Anyway.
Thalia and Hokori have both been staples in derevi but I don't feel it for this deck. I know the title says aggro, but really I'm aiming to have a strong, controlly, and mana-intensive late-game after an explosive start. Hokori wrecks that, and if I run more rocks for hokori then I lose my aggro edge. Thalia is less of a burden but she also doesn't delay wipes enough to be worth it imo. I mean, I'm fairly creature heavy but it slows down my removal, sunforger targets, equipment, etc. Same reason I don't love the land wipes (not because they're too powerful or annoying or whatever). They don't fit into my vision.
And for the record global ruin would suck in this deck. It's obscene in CoA though.
Sorry, I actually felt it was a fairly measured response. Didn't mean to come across as hostile or amped up.
That's fine. If your reasoning against playing a card is not based on how good the card is, whether in a vacuum or the specific deck, that is fine. I was responding to reasons you listed as to how it was inferior to Elspeth. I found that reasoning to be faulty. That is why I said it is your prerogative to build the deck as you see fit, but you must understand that discussion about your deck will take place outside of the parameters in your head, so for the sake of card discussion, I will adequately analyze and juxtapose specific cards. It is also to the benefit of the viewers of the thread to know that certain cards are left out for personal, not performace-based reasons.
If you don't see Elspeth's ultimate as being all that powerful and are using her mainly for the pump, perhaps it is a slot better served as an equipment such as Argentum Armor (high curve, admittedly, but devastating once active), Batterskull (slightly higher curve than Elspeth, but very powerful, survives wipes, protects itself from spot removal, adds +4 power instead of +3), Sword of the Paruns (buffs all your attackers, which is nice), Loxodon Warhammer (+3 power, lifelink, and evasion), Quietus Spike (all types of nasty if it connects, especially with a 2x striker), or Sword of Feast and Famine (best sword in EDH, bar none) given your propensity to fetch equipment?
I am not. I find it relatively incomrehensible that a game in which multiple people are playing with essentially the legacy banned list , Luminarch Ascension is the biggest threat (especially to the point where they decide the owner simply has to die, because no one can come up with a disenchant effect). There are a few different scenarios here. If you play Ascension with no board presence and opponents who all have attackers, you are a fool and deserve to die. If you play Ascension against a crowded board state, opponents are forced to alpha strike into you to stop it, allowing you to cherry pick their best creatures. In those crowded game states, you are also much more likely to encounter a sweeper, which is money in the bank with Ascension out. Against a sparse board, Ascension forces players to use their limited board presence to attack into you, and so long as you are not completely undefended (again, see "fool: deserve to die") you can choose when to get hit and when it is profitable to defend. So in neutral board states, Ascension is pretty solid.
If you are ahead on the board, as an aggro deck better be off the bat, Ascension is golden. Because of your board presence, you can choose to either pressure your opponents, giving them the choice to accept the damage in order to fire back against your enchantment, or you can play the waiting game and make them try to break your defenses. Either way, Asension does a wonderful job of supplementing an early aggro strategy, because if someone wipes your board, now your Ascension will come online. If they do not wipe your board, you get to beat face with your dudes and roll with plan A.
If you are behind on the board, Ascension is not good, unless you can manage to defend it just enough to get it active. But then again, almost none of the cards on your list, aside from maybe Dragonmaster Outcast or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite carry as much potential to recover from being well behind on the board than Ascension.
I will stop defending Luminarch Ascension if you stop attacking it on the basis of its usefulness to success in a game of Magic. If it is simply a personal feud with the card, that's all gravy in the navy.
Have you considered trying cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Hokori, Dust Drinker to attack your opponents manabase so they cannot hit you with sweepers? That to me is the biggest weak link in most EDH aggro decks (vulnerability to board sweepers), and must be addressed by one means or another. Those guys are at least creatures and flow in your gameplan a little better/are less hateful than the Armageddon, Ruination, Global Ruin type cards.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
If I was playing to win at all costs, then I'd just play the usual pantheon of hermit druid/doomsday/ad nauseam (or my personal brew, child of alara). My goal for every deck is essentially to come up with a vision for what I want the deck to do, and see how well I can execute that vision, and ideally win with it. For example, smokestack is certainly a good card (especially with assemble the legion) but that's not part of the vision I have for the deck. Ultimately you have to draw the line somewhere between performance and style, or we'd ALL be playing hermit druid.
Especially with my current model for building decks, I generally keep it together for 3-4 weeks before building something new. I don't want to waste games re-learning how boring luminarch ascension is - I want to do something with this deck that I haven't done before.
Anyway.
Thalia and Hokori have both been staples in derevi but I don't feel it for this deck. I know the title says aggro, but really I'm aiming to have a strong, controlly, and mana-intensive late-game after an explosive start. Hokori wrecks that, and if I run more rocks for hokori then I lose my aggro edge. Thalia is less of a burden but she also doesn't delay wipes enough to be worth it imo. I mean, I'm fairly creature heavy but it slows down my removal, sunforger targets, equipment, etc. Same reason I don't love the land wipes (not because they're too powerful or annoying or whatever). They don't fit into my vision.
And for the record global ruin would suck in this deck. It's obscene in CoA though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm going to update the list to include more combat triggers and whatnot, but for now it's -A&C, flickering ward and +Iroas, gisela.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6